World Republic vs. The Imperium

ian wrote:

Fijo wrote:So you weren't planning on attacking WR at all, right?

So - before the final decision is made by The Imperium collective regarding your and World Republic's fate - as a final act of sportsmanship i ll be happy to ask you - is there anything more you d like to say/ appeal to The Imperium Memberbase before they make their decision?

This sounded really a lot like what a storybook bully says to a small kid before taking their lunch money no matter what they say.

I d suggest you re-read what you just quoted before trying to put words into my mouth.

As for the bully thing - i couldn't careless where you grew up, or your personal experiences of life in general - what i said there meant exactly that what i wrote - is there anything kenzu/ World Republic wanted to say (such as i dunno... i m sorry for lieing to the imperium, our spy is actually vance - the reason we ve not admitted before is because we thought if we did you d wipe us out - or maybe a simple plea for mercy and moving appeal to the imperium member's hearts and mercy etc... - i.e. whatever kenzu/ WR felt appropriate) before the vote to go to war was put to the imperium memberbase.

So - as it stood, there were no garantee's The Imperium would go to war, and there were no garantee's The Imperium wouldn't go to war.

just out of curiousity, what does this post tell him?

Re: For Lasting Peace

Post by ian Yesterday at 9:02 pm

Kenzu wrote:The only person I am questioning is ian. No one else. He is behind all the lies. He is behind all the trouble.

ian wrote:Kenzu, thats a really nice suicide note you ve just wrote there. Any last requests?



Why is that a suicide note?

Show me some evidence, because I don't think you can provide any real evidence except bollocks.




You know what kenzu - your as good as dead. There will NEVER be peace between world republic and The Commonwealth. NEVER. No surrender, no retreat, no rest. You ve just lied your last time - we will drive you from this game and make sure you can never build a account ever again. You might as well quit - because i am well and truly sick to death of your lies. Your lie here - about vance - is unforgivable.

I ve never made a promise such as this before in all my 3 years on these sort of games, and never thought i d make such a promise - but i promise here and now, that no matter the sufferring or hardship inflicted, no matter the cost - I and anyone willing to follow me will sit on you untill all eternity. We will fight you never ending - we will destroy you and all who follow you.

Your a dead man.


that is from the Forum Lasting Peace topic. just sounds to me like you left him no choice but to declare war. whitch i think was a very smart move any leader could of done and going invisible or what ever thats called, was the second smartest thing he could have done, just my opinion, on how it looks to me.

https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/alliance-wars-treaties-f4/for-lasting-peace-t925-30.htm

LiL_Monsters wrote:

ian wrote:

Fijo wrote:So you weren't planning on attacking WR at all, right?

So - before the final decision is made by The Imperium collective regarding your and World Republic's fate - as a final act of sportsmanship i ll be happy to ask you - is there anything more you d like to say/ appeal to The Imperium Memberbase before they make their decision?

This sounded really a lot like what a storybook bully says to a small kid before taking their lunch money no matter what they say.

I d suggest you re-read what you just quoted before trying to put words into my mouth.

As for the bully thing - i couldn't careless where you grew up, or your personal experiences of life in general - what i said there meant exactly that what i wrote - is there anything kenzu/ World Republic wanted to say (such as i dunno... i m sorry for lieing to the imperium, our spy is actually vance - the reason we ve not admitted before is because we thought if we did you d wipe us out - or maybe a simple plea for mercy and moving appeal to the imperium member's hearts and mercy etc... - i.e. whatever kenzu/ WR felt appropriate) before the vote to go to war was put to the imperium memberbase.

So - as it stood, there were no garantee's The Imperium would go to war, and there were no garantee's The Imperium wouldn't go to war.

just out of curiousity, what does this post tell him?

Re: For Lasting Peace

Post by ian Yesterday at 9:02 pm

Kenzu wrote:The only person I am questioning is ian. No one else. He is behind all the lies. He is behind all the trouble.

ian wrote:Kenzu, thats a really nice suicide note you ve just wrote there. Any last requests?



Why is that a suicide note?

Show me some evidence, because I don't think you can provide any real evidence except bollocks.




You know what kenzu - your as good as dead. There will NEVER be peace between world republic and The Commonwealth. NEVER. No surrender, no retreat, no rest. You ve just lied your last time - we will drive you from this game and make sure you can never build a account ever again. You might as well quit - because i am well and truly sick to death of your lies. Your lie here - about vance - is unforgivable.

I ve never made a promise such as this before in all my 3 years on these sort of games, and never thought i d make such a promise - but i promise here and now, that no matter the sufferring or hardship inflicted, no matter the cost - I and anyone willing to follow me will sit on you untill all eternity. We will fight you never ending - we will destroy you and all who follow you.

Your a dead man.


that is from the Forum Lasting Peace topic. just sounds to me like you left him no choice but to declare war. whitch i think was a very smart move any leader could of done and going invisible or what ever thats called, was the second smartest thing he could have done, just my opinion, on how it looks to me.

https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/alliance-wars-treaties-f4/for-lasting-peace-t925-30.htm

Except you ignore the later post (i.e. posted many many hours after the one you quoted) explaining the situation in more detail - and offering kenzu one last chance to say/appeal anything he wished before the vote was put to the imperium memberbase. You can't just pick and choose what posts to listen to, and what one's not to - facts are after that post there was another post offerring kenzu a last chance of appeal/ to say anything else.

Kenzu and WR chose to ignore that - despite it being made clear the final decision rested with The Imperium memberbase. War wasn't certain - the memberbase still had the chance to vote no... though i don't doubt for a second the odds of a "No" vote being returned weren't exactly high. But by going to war made war a certainty... a war which WR has so far sustained 6 times the amount of damage in than they ve inflicted (anyone who spied me before WR massed me, and have spied me since can see who's telling the truth about losses - since Kenzu has told WR that i m lieing about my losses ) - and one which in all probability is a bit one sided. I.e. The Commonwealth alone makes 245,000+ Unit Production a day and 516million kuwal a turn - 24,768billion kuwal a day. Thats a total economic generation (U.P * 100,000 + daily income) of 49,268,000,000 kuwal's worth including U.P kuwal's value + income.

World Republic threw the best they had at myself/ The Commonwealth - and the result is they managed to set The Commonwealth back by under 1/3 of a day. Since this war has been waging (about 16hours or so) - that means The Commonwealth hasn't just regenerated its losses, but generated the equivilant of the resources lost again - and by the time tomorrow when the war's been going for 24hours... we d have replaced the losses, and have enough extra resources to cover 2 more massings of similar extent. I suspect World Republic's own resource reserves are running low now - and i m prepared to bet significant resources that World Republic won't be able to come anywhere near close to being able to keep up with The Commonwealth's regenerative ability.... and thats not even including The Company which overshadow's The Commonwealth's regenerative abilities by a pretty large amount.

But.. point is - even after my initial "promise" post, i then made another more recent one. War even then still wasn't a certainty - had Kenzu apologised for any allegations made against The Imperium - then had he quietly withdrawn Vance from The Imperium (he wouldn't have even have to have mentioned him infact, so long as Vance was out of our ranks)... and had he made some vague promises about World Republic conduct in the future (I.e. such as promising to be more patient, diplomatic etc...) - i suspect it would have been enough to sway the bulk of The Imperium's memberbase into voting no - remembering that its really only those strongly involved in this situation from both sides posting, so normal members are far less involved, and thus far more impartial..... - had Kenzu actually apologised about the allegations, and withdrawn vance - i d have been happy (and infact still would be happy - though not for a bit, i want a chance to draw some blood now since some of mine has been drawn) to have forgiven WR, and moved my support back behind finding a peaceful solution... which would have just happened (since kenzu apologising and withdrawing Vance would have ended the issue).

Infact - could you do me a favour, and tell me if Kenzu actually even told you guys about the extensive peace discussion he had with myself and Reaper? We all but had peace signed and sealed - just waiting for the official peace topic to be created... when Kenzu pulled out of the agreement. ALL that agreement required from WR was an apology for the allegations made against us, an apology to the server for any past misconducts - and for kenzu to admit to Vance being his spy. THAT was it. Literally. Sadly for reasons completely unknown to me - Kenzu decided to abondon it just when it was pretty much done.

So... please don't accuse The Imperium of being the aggressors here. We had a peace treaty pretty much signed when Kenzu blew it out of the water. Even then, World Republic fired the first shots which have now made this cold war (which it was) into a hot-full scale war.

https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/empire-wars-treaties-f3/world-republic-and-urban-empire-military-pact-t879.htm

1 ally left WR already. Regradless of the reason that is 1 less alliance against TIE.

ian wrote:Estimated costs for World Republic's failed attack upon myself:

Lord Pegasus used a strike about 1.5 times the size of my defence give or take - with 45,000 armed supers. Estimated repair costs are about 7 - 8 billion kuwal's worth for ALL assaults conducted upon me (including the 6 which he then gave upon when he realised i was online)

Lord Pegasus also lost 8,488 attack supers in the assault on my defence - including training costs thats 2,122,000,000 kuwal's worth.

Kenzu lost a further 532 attack supers while attempting to hunt my assassins when i came online - so a further 1,333,000,000 kuwal cost.

Kenzu lost a further 1,175 attack supers while trying to destroy my strike - a further 293,700,000 kuwal's worth. Repair costs for Kenzu would have been about 2 - 3billion kuwal. Maybe more.

2615 enemy assassins also died killing some of my spies - so another 379,175,000 kuwal' cost

A total of 25 assaults were conducted against me - 500 attack turns (500million kuwal value)

A total of 6 invasions were conducted against me - 60 attack turns (60million kuwal)

A total of 6 destruction missions were conducted against me - 90 attack turns (90million kuwal).

Estimated cost for WR overall: 14,284,175,000 kuwal. Given you caught me suprise... thats a terrible performance all round.

kenzu, kismet and Lord Pegasus are now hiding on PPT.

We have no turn costs. WR has practically infinite ammount of turns.
We had less than 7 billion total costs against you, and you forgot to mention that we were massing your defense again after you tried to rebuild it, where you had heavy repair costs. You lost well over 17 billion kuwal.

well kenzu turns still have a market value that is were is is based upon we have an infite suplly of turns to since we don't have to spend to much on you guys you destroyed to fast anyway

man, you just aren't bright are you. your alliance's assets(turns) have decreased and EVERYTHING HAS A VALUE!!! therefore AT has a value, so... you have a turn cost.

As you use ingame prices rather, than forum prices as ian used, and current price is 295,306,968 Kuwal for 420 Turns, then each turn costs 703,112 kuwal, so thats about 457mil for the attack turns.

Either way, don't you worry kenzu, once you're off from hiding on ppt, your time will come. You may think you're massing of ian may have hurt him or knocked him down and brought him to his knees, but that is nothing compared to what is going to happen to you and little WR rabble.

We are waiting...

Kenzu wrote:Again you start with your demands.

This reminds me of the well known strategy "Divide et impera"

point 1 The use of again when have i ever demand anything of you or any of your members

point 2 The terms are in place as its is clear from what you said already in this thread that some members have decided to leave you. Now you placed them in danger by making the alliance hidden and not letting anyone know whom your members are not me. The terms are not demands just assurances that if people do leave they will not aid you in your war. The same way that if i found out others are supplying you they would be legitimate targets.

point 3 Is it not better that we as the better people give people away out of war that you seem to want to draw them into. Now I've played these games long enough to know people will want a way out if it is not even just for rl reasons

You are now welcome of course to copy me and set up your own thread if you want.

Kenzu wrote:

ian wrote:Estimated costs for World Republic's failed attack upon myself:

Lord Pegasus used a strike about 1.5 times the size of my defence give or take - with 45,000 armed supers. Estimated repair costs are about 7 - 8 billion kuwal's worth for ALL assaults conducted upon me (including the 6 which he then gave upon when he realised i was online)

Lord Pegasus also lost 8,488 attack supers in the assault on my defence - including training costs thats 2,122,000,000 kuwal's worth.

Kenzu lost a further 532 attack supers while attempting to hunt my assassins when i came online - so a further 1,333,000,000 kuwal cost.

Kenzu lost a further 1,175 attack supers while trying to destroy my strike - a further 293,700,000 kuwal's worth. Repair costs for Kenzu would have been about 2 - 3billion kuwal. Maybe more.

2615 enemy assassins also died killing some of my spies - so another 379,175,000 kuwal' cost

A total of 25 assaults were conducted against me - 500 attack turns (500million kuwal value)

A total of 6 invasions were conducted against me - 60 attack turns (60million kuwal)

A total of 6 destruction missions were conducted against me - 90 attack turns (90million kuwal).

Estimated cost for WR overall: 14,284,175,000 kuwal. Given you caught me suprise... thats a terrible performance all round.

kenzu, kismet and Lord Pegasus are now hiding on PPT.

We have no turn costs. WR has practically infinite ammount of turns.
We had less than 7 billion total costs against you, and you forgot to mention that we were massing your defense again after you tried to rebuild it, where you had heavy repair costs. You lost well over 17 billion kuwal.

ok then, lets do some maths. All your UU losses added up comes to 2,927,875,000 kuwal. That means according to you, you managed to assault my defence completely down to breaking point, then assault my defence 6 times again when i came back online - and reduce my strike to about 1/3 its weapon strength via destruction missions - all on the cost of less than 4billion kuwal for repair costs.

Lord Pegasus had 45,000 weapons armed for his strike. His strike was about 1.5 times larger than my defence give or take a bit. It costs 230 kuwal per point per weapon - so it would cost approximately 10,350,000 kuwal to repair his weapons once if they each lost only 1 point. Now, generally speaking the strike can expect to loose at least 40 points for the first assault - thats 414,000,000 kuwal alone for the first assault in repair costs. It look Lord Pegasus 11 assaults to break my first set of weapons. If we factor in that as the defence drops further away from the strike, the strike takes less damage - we d probably be reasonably accurate to say all round it cost Lord Pegasus between 350 and 400 points repair costs spread across the 11 assaults - potentially more.

350 x 10,350,000 = 3,622,500,000 kuwal
400 x 10,350,000 = 4,140,000,000 kuwal.

On top of this - Lord Pegasus then commenced assaulting my defence while i was online. Each time he hit i repaired my defence. Each hit he performed he d have sufferred at least 40 points damage. 6 lots of 40 = 240 points.

240 x 10,350,000 = 2,484,000,000 kuwal.

Now - even if by some miracle Lord Pegasus's strike was only damaged 30 points per hit (hugely hugely unlikely) - then even then that comes to:

180 x 10,350,000 = 1,863,000,000 kuwal.

Thus - the repair costs for Lord Pegasus to assault my defence (including the 6 extra assaults he did when i d rebuilt my defence) would come to an MINIMAL amount somewhere between 5,485,500,000 kuwal and 6,624,000,000 kuwal.

Then on top of that - we have your 6 destruction missions against myself. You d have lost a minimum of 35 points per weapon for the first hit. If we say 150 points for the 6 hits lost in your attack weapons (average of 25 points lost per hit) - given you had 27,337 IFV's armed, 230 kuwal cost per weapon per point - thats a total (27,337 x 230 x 150) of 943,126,500 kuwal repair costs - potentially more.

If we factor in attack turn value (ingame market rates then) - thats 457million kuwal. All told therefore - assaulting + destruction + A.T value for all the various attacks = 8,024,126,500 kuwal give or take.

On top of that - UU (and training) costs - so another 2,927,875,000 kuwal - that brings the total to 10,952,001,500 kuwal - then on top of that repair costs for the invasion and hunt assassin missions conducted.

Thus... at least 11 billion cost to mass me - more likely well above 12billion kuwal cost if you factor in the repair costs i ve given you above are pretty leniant, and that the A.T is actually worth what you can sell it on the blackmarket for (as oppossed to ingame rates).

The repair costs for my newly rebuilt defence (10,000 IFV's) when Lord Pegasus launched his 6 assaults against me, amounted to 449 points. 10,000 IFV's = 2,300,000 repair cost per point - 1,032,700,000 kuwal.

I didn't factor in those repair costs... nor the one's for my strike (again 10,000 IFV's) in my first assessment of losses (i simply didn't think about it to be honest, was busy adding up all the other costs while at the same time counter-attacking against thulkthayer and october 17 )- so your 17billion kuwal figure is actually pretty accurate i d say.

Your 7billion kuwal figure though is completely impossible. It ll be at least 11.5billion kuwal - more likely 12billion - and potentially anything up to 13 - 14billion kuwal. I ll agree my initial preliminary estimate of your losses was a little inaccurate regarding the repair costs, so consequently that can be adjusted down to these more recent figures... but you definately didn't mass me for 7billion kuwal lol

If you think so

ian wrote:

October17:

26,382 defence supers killed - 6,595,500,000 kuwal's worth.
2,823 spies lost - 410million kuwal's worth.
39,854 assassins lost - 5,778,830,000 kuwal's worth.
73,989 miners lost - 8,138,790,000 kuwal's worth.
13,141 workers lost - 1,379,805,000 kuwal's worth.
47,211 IFV weapons lost - 8,686,824,000 kuwal's worth

Total lost: 30,989,749,000 kuwal's worth.

Thulkthayer:

27,161 defence supers - 6,790,250,000 kuwal's worth.
255,398 miners - 28,093,780,000 kuwal's worth.
85,941 assassins - 12,461,445,000 kuwal's worth.
41,047 IFV's - 7,552,648,000 kuwal's worth.

Total lost: 54,898,123,000 kuwal's worth.

Total Imperium costs (including value of A.T): 25,428,000,000 kuwal's worth of resources

ian wrote:
10,952,001,500 kuwal + repair costs for the invasion and hunt assassin missions conducted.

Kenzu wrote:
It will take ian 10 days to rebuild what he lost with his income (he lost 17 billion)

WR cost to date (October 14th)
30,989,749,000 + 54,898,123,000 + 10,952,001,500 = 96,839,873,500

TIE cost to date (October 14th)
25,428,000,000 + 17,000,000,000 = 42,428,000,000

This post is pure numbers and facts. I have no doubt Kenzu will try some pointless argument against it saying TIE lost more then WR

I guess your whining and whimpering of The Imperium being a bully, serves to proof of truth of accusing those who shall not be accused and we have not done any wrong.

Fijo wrote:So you weren't planning on attacking WR at all, right?

So - before the final decision is made by The Imperium collective regarding your and World Republic's fate - as a final act of sportsmanship i ll be happy to ask you - is there anything more you d like to say/ appeal to The Imperium Memberbase before they make their decision?

This sounded really a lot like what a storybook bully says to a small kid before taking their lunch money no matter what they say.

stars wrote:I guess your whining and whimpering of The Imperium being a bully, serves to proof of truth of accusing those who shall not be accused and we have not done any wrong.

Fijo wrote:So you weren't planning on attacking WR at all, right?

So - before the final decision is made by The Imperium collective regarding your and World Republic's fate - as a final act of sportsmanship i ll be happy to ask you - is there anything more you d like to say/ appeal to The Imperium Memberbase before they make their decision?

This sounded really a lot like what a storybook bully says to a small kid before taking their lunch money no matter what they say.

So you agree with the bold part considering that was obviously the main point of my post and only addressing the irrelevant parts of it
Thank you

Vesper wrote:
This post is pure numbers and facts. I have no doubt Kenzu will try some pointless argument against it saying TIE lost more then WR

No, because I don't want to waste so much time on forums anymore.
It doesn't matter what's written in the forums anyway.

KOOPA:

Resources Lost In The Offensive

Killed 9.123 Def Supers = 2,280,750,000 (912,300,000 + 1,368,450,000)
Raided 65,134 UU = 6,513,400,000
Destroyed 17k APC’s = 1,904,000,000
Killed 35.264 Assassins = 5,113,280,000 (3,526,400,000 + 1,586,880,000)

Total Lost = 15,811,430,000

Resources Spent to Cause This Damage

2000 AT = 2,000,000,000
2,000,000,000 Kuwal
2,000 UU = 200,000,000

Total Spent = 4,200,000,000

Total Net Destroyed

15,811,430,000 - 4,200,000,000 = 11,611,430,000





Not my best work, but OK.

Vesper wrote:

WR cost to date (October 14th)
30,989,749,000 + 54,898,123,000 + 10,952,001,500 = 96,839,873,500

TIE cost to date (October 14th)
25,428,000,000 + 17,000,000,000 = 42,428,000,000

retro22 wrote:KOOPA:

Total Lost = 15,811,430,000

Total Spent = 4,200,000,000

WR cost to date (October 15th)
96,839,873,500 + 15,811,430,000 = 112,651,303,500

TIE cost to date (October 14th)
42,428,000,000 + 4,200,000,000 = 46,628,000,000

112,651,303,500 / 46,628,000,000 = 2.42

The 2.42 ratio shows that WR has lost more then twice as much as TIE. I am guessing Kenzu is telling his fellow members that WR is dominating the war killling 20 times as much. But in reality there is the evidence so do with it what you wish. Should be exciting when everyone is off of protection. Number will shift heavily to one side or another. Cant be too certain which way it goes yet

He has said no such thing. and we have done little but been on protection.
when we are finally off the tides will change a lot.

also i have it on good authority that our actions against TIE forces
came only shortly before they were going to mass Kenzu
regardless of what WR did.

Kenzu could have stopped it at any time, if he had chosen to.

Vesper wrote:
The 2.42 ratio shows that WR has lost more then twice as much as TIE. I am guessing Kenzu is telling his fellow members that WR is dominating the war killling 20 times as much. But in reality there is the evidence so do with it what you wish. Should be exciting when everyone is off of protection. Number will shift heavily to one side or another. Cant be too certain which way it goes yet

Your post makes me smile.

There is something you don't know about all this.
I am itching to tell, but it will have to wait a couple of months, before I can tell you the funny thing about this.

Special Agent 47 wrote:Kenzu could have stopped it at any time, if he had chosen to.

Yes, I have chosen to have peace, but as you (TIE members) have said countless times, you want war.

No need to comment on that.

Kenzu wrote:
There is something you don't know about all this.
I am itching to tell, but it will have to wait a couple of months, before I can tell you the funny thing about this.

What a shocker. Kenzu is hiding something again.

Vesper wrote:

Kenzu wrote:
There is something you don't know about all this.
I am itching to tell, but it will have to wait a couple of months, before I can tell you the funny thing about this.

What a shocker. Kenzu is hiding something again.

I'm guessing another ultimatum stating "Kenzu has to tell what he knows!"

Doesn't everyone have secrets?

Beyond that, no, WR hasn't been told 20x damage or anything but prepare for the massing TIE will do - even though The Company had already been hitting many of WR's members even before the damage done to Ian.

The forums are still a Posturing and Propaganda. The majority of people in WR have grown bored of these forums and most just don't bother to respond to the baiting.

indeed kismet we have been hitting your members their excellent raiding and farming targets

You have done more than that

yup I've sabbed of quite a lot of guys... only 1 fail so far

Survivor wrote:yup I've sabbed of quite a lot of guys... only 1 fail so far

Thanks for admitting TIE attacked WR members before war was declared. (thus before ultimatum ended)

Kenzu wrote:

Survivor wrote:yup I've sabbed of quite a lot of guys... only 1 fail so far

Thanks for admitting TIE attacked WR members before war was declared. (thus before ultimatum ended)

Erm... i think he was on about since the war's began, since i know he hasn't sabbed a single player in WR before then.

On other news, Kismet's account just had a little "accident".

The Imperium Empire estimated losses:

soul dog - 14,325 assassins - 2,077,125,000 kuwal
Mage prime - 14,000 assassins - 2,030,000,000 kuwal
Blackeagle - 16,000 attack supers. 11billion repair costs for strike - 15,000,000,000 kuwal cost.
Casshern - 7,000 assassins - 1,015,000,000 kuwal.
Myself: 8,535 assassins - 1,237,575,000 kuwal.
Spiderx : 6,146 assassins - 891,170,000 kuwal.

Total kuwal value lost: 22,250,870,000 kuwal.

Before we slaughtered Kismet, he had:

112,000 defence supers.
13,000 defence solders
59,000 assassins
59,000 spies
20,000 attack supers
5,000 attack soldiers

128,000 Defence IFV's.

Now he has:

29,320 defence supers
2,277 defence soldiers
23,547 assassins
41,348 spies
19,330 attack supers
4,665 attack soldiers

0 defence IFV's

Kismet's total Losses Broken down:

82,680 defence supers - 20,670,000,000 kuwal.
2,723 defence soldiers - 313,145,000 kuwal.
35,453 assassins - 5,140,685,000 kuwal.
17,652 spies - 2,559,540,000 kuwal.
670 attack supers - 167,500,000 kuwal.
335 attack soldiers - 38,525,000 kuwal.

128,000 Defence IFV's - 23,552,000,000 kuwal's worth.

Total Losses: 52,441,395,000 kuwal.s worth

Yep... it sure looks like The Imperium Empire is struggling to find the ST and A.T needed to keep fighting this war and killing the enemy.... i think defeat could be inevitable!