Re: Castravete's accusations against me - and my evidence against illegal feeding when I gained 15 million UU through legal trades

by kingkongfan1 Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:59 am

keinutnai/kenzu started this thread to proclaim that he is innocent of any cheating. I make this post not to accuse keinutnai/kenzu of cheating, but to get some answers to some questions about certain "suspicious" activities he has been involved in. as such I shall present what meager evidence I have accumulated, kenutnai/kenzu can make whatever response he has to this, but ultimately without admin going back & checking (I dunno if going back can be done as this happened nearly a year ago). then there is nothing to be done.

first we have this I found in the FAQ/Rules section- 7) Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account.

second- keinutnai/kenzu purchased the "whatamidoinghere" acct sometime between 10/09/11 & what appears to be 12/06/11. see- https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2579-selling-account-closed for more details

three- this occurred during the "first" Muj/WR war as I recall, see-
Message of the Day
Veteran of former wars.
World Republic - Mujengan
Oct/09/2011 - Dec/13/2011

World Republic - TMI
Apr/1/2012 - June/15/2012

Ongoing wars.

As I make no "assumptions" on anything, I will directly ask keinutnai/kenzu the following questions.

1) did you, (with or without player "whatamidoinghere" help) transfer any resources from the "whatamidoinghere" acct to the keinutnai (id 12) acct after you purchased the acct?

(If it is possible I request that admin check to see if any such activity did occur at said time)

2) If you did not transfer resources off of that acct onto yours, can you explain where the resources went?

I ask because in the time between you purchasing the acct, & you supposedly giving it to some other player to play most if not all of the AT's & UU were slowly stripped off that acct over a matter of weeks.

3) there were several times when a certain amount of resources would go missing off of the whatamidoinghere acct, & an equal amount of resources would show up on the keinutnai acct at the same time, can you explain this?

here is some interesting reading on this so be sure to check it out,- https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2580p60-world-republic-against-mujengan admin made several posts in the thread. I wonder why this wasn't dealt with back then?

by Steveanaya Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:16 am

I always thought that rule was scrapped.

by fivel Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:29 pm

as most of us, because if that was not scraped there are more than a few users that should have been banned long ago

by kingkongfan1 Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:21 pm

I was under the impression that it was implemented when the PTR update hit. Either way, it is still on the books. looks like admin needs to clear a few things up for all of us. if it was "supposed" to be scrapped, then so be it, remove it from the rules & I'll drop this like a hot rock.

by Keinutnai Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:01 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:keinutnai/kenzu started this thread to proclaim that he is innocent of any cheating. I make this post not to accuse keinutnai/kenzu of cheating, but to get some answers to some questions about certain "suspicious" activities he has been involved in. as such I shall present what meager evidence I have accumulated, kenutnai/kenzu can make whatever response he has to this, but ultimately without admin going back & checking (I dunno if going back can be done as this happened nearly a year ago). then there is nothing to be done.

first we have this I found in the FAQ/Rules section- 7) Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account.

I think the way this rule was meant was that when a player buys an account he simply cannot keep both accounts and keep transferring resources from one account to the other, however I understood it the way that it is ok, for one player to buy an account, transfer resources from either of his accounts to the other (and it doesn't matter if he himself does it, or the person he buys resources from), but in any case he MUST abandon one of the accounts asap (preferably the same day he got it)

second- keinutnai/kenzu purchased the "whatamidoinghere" acct sometime between 10/09/11 & what appears to be 12/06/11. see- https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2579-selling-account-closed for more details

three- this occurred during the "first" Muj/WR war as I recall, see-
Message of the Day
Veteran of former wars.
World Republic - Mujengan
Oct/09/2011 - Dec/13/2011

World Republic - TMI
Apr/1/2012 - June/15/2012

Ongoing wars.

As I make no "assumptions" on anything, I will directly ask keinutnai/kenzu the following questions.

1) did you, (with or without player "whatamidoinghere" help) transfer any resources from the "whatamidoinghere" acct to the keinutnai (id 12) acct after you purchased the acct?

[color=blue]I think it's common knowledge that I bought the account. People don't buy accounts if they dont want the resources it has or the account itself. Right?
I paid 60$ for it and most of its resources were transfered to either me, Sara or us both. After it was transferred the account was abandonned (either vacated or simply left around). Some time later a friend was interested in the account, because it had decent UP and techs, while my friend was fairly new to the game and had much lower stats. Since I didn't need the account, I traded the account for the UU on his old account.

(If it is possible I request that admin check to see if any such activity did occur at said time)

Everything is possible. Maybe you want to send him a pm and tell him what you need?

2) If you did not transfer resources off of that acct onto yours, can you explain where the resources went?

I ask because in the time between you purchasing the acct, & you supposedly giving it to some other player to play most if not all of the AT's & UU were slowly stripped off that acct over a matter of weeks.

I bought the account, and since my account had much better techs, it was obvious I bought it for the resources. The resources went either to me, to Sara or to us both.
I am fairly certain the resources got stripped either on the same day or within few days.

3) there were several times when a certain amount of resources would go missing off of the whatamidoinghere acct, & an equal amount of resources would show up on the keinutnai acct at the same time, can you explain this?

No, because I am under the impression that all resources got sent at once, although it is possible that more got sent again when I sold the account.

In any case this was legal feeding, because my PTR stayed green. I also abandoned the account and later sold it.

here is some interesting reading on this so be sure to check it out,- https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2580p60-world-republic-against-mujengan admin made several posts in the thread. I wonder why this wasn't dealt with back then?

Do you mean his statements on page 5? Because that's where the link directs me to. What are you talking about?

by kingkongfan1 Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:59 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote:keinutnai/kenzu started this thread to proclaim that he is innocent of any cheating. I make this post not to accuse keinutnai/kenzu of cheating, but to get some answers to some questions about certain "suspicious" activities he has been involved in. as such I shall present what meager evidence I have accumulated, kenutnai/kenzu can make whatever response he has to this, but ultimately without admin going back & checking (I dunno if going back can be done as this happened nearly a year ago). then there is nothing to be done.

first we have this I found in the FAQ/Rules section- 7) Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account.

I think the way this rule was meant was that when a player buys an account he simply cannot keep both accounts and keep transferring resources from one account to the other, however I understood it the way that it is ok, for one player to buy an account, transfer resources from either of his accounts to the other (and it doesn't matter if he himself does it, or the person he buys resources from), but in any case he MUST abandon one of the accounts asap (preferably the same day he got it)
However it was "MEANT" is "NOT" how it reads. In my opinion it is rather clear about what "IS" or "IS NOT" allowed it very plainly states the person who buys an account may not transfer any resources between his old and new account.if something else was meant then it should have been written differently to express another meaning

second- keinutnai/kenzu purchased the "whatamidoinghere" acct sometime between 10/09/11 & what appears to be 12/06/11. see- https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2579-selling-account-closed for more details

three- this occurred during the "first" Muj/WR war as I recall, see-
Message of the Day
Veteran of former wars.
World Republic - Mujengan
Oct/09/2011 - Dec/13/2011

World Republic - TMI
Apr/1/2012 - June/15/2012

Ongoing wars.

As I make no "assumptions" on anything, I will directly ask keinutnai/kenzu the following questions.

1) did you, (with or without player "whatamidoinghere" help) transfer any resources from the "whatamidoinghere" acct to the keinutnai (id 12) acct after you purchased the acct?

[color=blue]I think it's common knowledge that I bought the account. People don't buy accounts if they dont want the resources it has or the account itself. Right?
I paid 60$ for it and most of its resources were transfered to either me, Sara or us both. After it was transferred the account was abandonned (either vacated or simply left around). Some time later a friend was interested in the account, because it had decent UP and techs, while my friend was fairly new to the game and had much lower stats. Since I didn't need the account, I traded the account for the UU on his old account.

(If it is possible I request that admin check to see if any such activity did occur at said time)

Everything is possible. Maybe you want to send him a pm and tell him what you need?
admin has not responded to any pm's sent to him in weeks. that is why I brought this here, to get your side of the story.

2) If you did not transfer resources off of that acct onto yours, can you explain where the resources went?

I ask because in the time between you purchasing the acct, & you supposedly giving it to some other player to play most if not all of the AT's & UU were slowly stripped off that acct over a matter of weeks.

I bought the account, and since my account had much better techs, it was obvious I bought it for the resources. The resources went either to me, to Sara or to us both.
I am fairly certain the resources got stripped either on the same day or within few days.

3) there were several times when a certain amount of resources would go missing off of the whatamidoinghere acct, & an equal amount of resources would show up on the keinutnai acct at the same time, can you explain this?

No, because I am under the impression that all resources got sent at once, although it is possible that more got sent again when I sold the account.

In any case this was legal feeding, because my PTR stayed green. I also abandoned the account and later sold it.
Legal feeding? interesting, for as I read it, what you did is against the rules of the game. According Websters the definition of a cheater is- To deprive of by deceit. To BREAK the rules

here is some interesting reading on this so be sure to check it out,- https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2580p60-world-republic-against-mujengan admin made several posts in the thread. I wonder why this wasn't dealt with back then?

Do you mean his statements on page 5? Because that's where the link directs me to. What are you talking about?
Yes, when you are accused of "cheating" the first thing you do is point your finger at another player & say "he cheated as well" basically. just because two players cheat does not make it right.

Whether the rule is meant as it is written; or there is some other unwritten meaning behind what is posted, we wont know till admin tells us.

As it stands now, you are in fact a cheater in my opinion. Though I will be the first one to say that you cheated by way of a misunderstanding of the rules, as is the case with many other players in this game, as it was pointed out by another player.

In my opinion the rule is very confusing, as what is the point of "purchasing" another acct with real money if you cannot "strip" the resources off of it? maybe cause the techs etc. were better? then you would lose all that was on your original acct, so it is all very tricky & in what I would call the "grey area" that admin warned us all about.

the point here is this, you should be more careful of what you post.

by Special Agent 47 Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:52 pm

@ Kong,,,

The rules never seem to get updated as things change. I can also confirm no messages are being received by admin as I have one sitting in my out box since Oct 12th without being opened or read.

Being a player who has swapped accounts more then once, and having spoken with Admin on multiple occasions all I can offer is my understanding of the above mentioned rule.

First let me state I have called for that specific rule to be rewritten on multiple occasions directly to admin.

The basic understanding I got from Admin was buying an account is legal in his eyes. Stripping the resources from said accounts is legal in his eyes under 2 conditions.

1. is it does not throw you into the red on your PTR by to great an amount, and is not a repeated issue. So you can not say if you go red by XX% because 1 mill men would not move my PTR by .01% but could take a fresh account to a red -80% (max negative). So size/value of existing account is taken into account. Also buying an account and your PTR jumping to a negative 35% will not get you banned as long as the negative starts to correct itself, But buying 3 accounts in a row and seeing your PTR steadily get worse can get you a warning because of the negative trend it is presenting.

2. He has always told me I had 1 log in and 24 hrs to do what I was going to do. Tho when asked because I left all the AT on one account he said it was fine to go back immediately. So in that case it was around 6 hrs cross over. He always told me repeated returns and slow strips were not going to be considered acceptable.

To my knowledge the above mentioned rule was put in place since the beginning of the game, and was basically made a relic in need of removal by the PTR update. PTR cover this, and this rule has been broken and bypassed with admins blessing so many times it is irrelevant and in need of removal.

The only issue here is what Admin finds "acceptable". Tho he told me 1 thing, it is obvious that Kenzu could have been told another, as well as any other account trader who has asked. Admin has not and up to date will not make standing rules about account swaps even tho they have been requested.

End result is by the posted rule Kenzu has cheated, along with many more of us. By what Admin has held me to in account swapping, Kenzu has cheated, but it is entirely plausible Admin has given him permission to do as he has done, since Admin gave me permission to break rules as well. What level/style/means or how ever you wish to word it seems to be a person by person basis, not even across the board. Certain people are allowed to do more then others, or in different way do things. It is entirely possible I have been allowed to do something someone else has not and therefore I have cheated as well. It is why I have requested that rule be rewritten to explain how long you have to "crossover" an account.

by Special Agent 47 Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:00 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:Kenzu,

Are you willing to discuss this further and answer some questions asked before but never answered?

Yes of course.

The only thing I don't want to do is repeating what I have said many times. Unanswered questions are fine.

So what do you want to ask?

I made this a second post/double post because I know your tendency to quote everything in its entirety and it makes for a wall of text that's often to much and things get lost.

I want to fully understand the explanation you give to the only issue I have a problem with. That is the accusation that you and Sara play both accounts.

Now please correct me where I am wrong. Understand this is written as an opinion of what you are claiming to be the truth, not written as fact. Then you can explain where I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

It is my understanding that you claim that You and Sara live together, and therefore communicate in real life as to when to bank and how to attack. So would this be correct?

It is my understanding that you claim that you and Sara often tell each other when to bank so that one or the other of you do not get farmed or lose precious resources, and like wise only attack together and never alone nor never on separate targets. Is this correct?

by kingkongfan1 Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:40 am

Spoiler:

@SA47- I understand what you are saying as you & I have had this discussion several times over, but please indulge me as I present the following scenario...

Some random player in the universe stumbles upon Aderan Wars & decides to play it, so this player (we will call him Joe) registers & sets up an acct. Joe knows nothing of Aderan Wars so he reads the "rules" to learn, so he sees rule #7) "Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account." What is Joe gonna think? remember Joe hasn't had the privilege of having admin discuss matters with him privately. So then Joe hops over onto forums to check things out & reads that players regularly cheat by "BREAKing" rules but more importantly the game admins brother is one of the cheaters. Joe thinks to himself, "it is hard enough to compete against players who can afford to spend $$ purchasing gold for ingame resources, let alone having to compete against players who purchase accts & strips them of their resources also, which is against the rules."

Does anyone really think that Joe is gonna stay & play, or just say "screw this, there is no way I can hope to ever compete against anyone in this situation" & quit the game?

by seaborgium Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:03 am

I know joe. He stuck around and is a softy till you cross his friends.

by Keinutnai Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:10 pm

Do you mean his statements on page 5? Because that's where the link directs me to. What are you talking about?
Yes, when you are accused of "cheating" the first thing you do is point your finger at another player & say "he cheated as well" basically. just because two players cheat does not make it right.

I never said that they cheated.
I said that other people did it as well and that it is allowed.

Me, other people and admin all find it normal to buy an account and strip it from resources (if it doesnt offset your PTR too much into red). Since admin allows it, it means it's not against rules, despite game rules stating otherwise. What it does mean though is that the game rules page is not accurate and needs to be updated. (They should have been updated long time ago, already when PTR got released.)

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Spoiler:

@SA47- I understand what you are saying as you & I have had this discussion several times over, but please indulge me as I present the following scenario...

Some random player in the universe stumbles upon Aderan Wars & decides to play it, so this player (we will call him Joe) registers & sets up an acct. Joe knows nothing of Aderan Wars so he reads the "rules" to learn, so he sees rule #7) "Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account." What is Joe gonna think? remember Joe hasn't had the privilege of having admin discuss matters with him privately. So then Joe hops over onto forums to check things out & reads that players regularly cheat by "BREAKing" rules but more importantly the game admins brother is one of the cheaters. Joe thinks to himself, "it is hard enough to compete against players who can afford to spend $$ purchasing gold for ingame resources, let alone having to compete against players who purchase accts & strips them of their resources also, which is against the rules."

Does anyone really think that Joe is gonna stay & play, or just say "screw this, there is no way I can hope to ever compete against anyone in this situation" & quit the game?

Great example. This just proves that the game rules have to be updated asap, so that new players know exactly what is and what isn't allowed (and so that they don't get a wrong impression about the game).

by Special Agent 47 Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:19 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
#1
This was Kong
Yes, when you are accused of "cheating" the first thing you do is point your finger at another player & say "he cheated as well" basically. just because two players cheat does not make it right.

This is Kenzu
I never said that they cheated.
I said that other people did it as well and that it is allowed.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
#2
Me, other people and admin all find it normal to buy an account and strip it from resources (if it doesnt offset your PTR too much into red). Since admin allows it, it means it's not against rules, despite game rules stating otherwise. What it does mean though is that the game rules page is not accurate and needs to be updated. (They should have been updated long time ago, already when PTR got released.)

#3
Great example. This just proves that the game rules have to be updated asap, so that new players know exactly what is and what isn't allowed (and so that they don't get a wrong impression about the game).

#1.
Due to the fact you often get things wrong, or perceive them different then admin you have to excuse the fact many people no longer believes what you say. If you have a set of posted rules they should stand or be changed. A player making a "claim" that the standing and posted rules are no longer accurate is unacceptable.

Also this accounts for the feeding accusations and such, but does not account for the accusations of 1 person playing both accounts. There has been no known discussion that there is any change to the existing rules on that subject.

#2
Yes, some like myself have been saying the same for an extremely long time. I just hope that the only people who can correct this problem will now actually do so. Admin Martin and forum Admin Kenzu are the only people who are known to the public who can correct this issue and so far both have not had the time or concern to fix it. I do not say this as an attack on either, but a statement of facts. These facts have in the past caused issues, presently are the cause of some fairly significant issues ingame, and will continue to be a problem until corrected.

NOTHING in forums can, or should EVER override ingame postings and rules. I would say far less then 10% of the game even uses forums. Therefore anything posted here is wasted on the general public and will never be known to those with no forum account, or alliance mate/CO with a forum account willing to share info.

Now to the most important issue here in My Opinion. I like the way you say this.

Me, other people and admin all find it normal to "insert any situation desired". Since admin allows it, it means it's not against rules, despite game rules stating otherwise.

This is the root of 99% of this games issues. Can either of you not understand or realize how this looks to the players? If you were a new player, or even an older player with a year or so under your belt and you stumbled across this would it not strike you as a slap in the face? A player will think "Hell I been following the rules all this time and these SOB have been bypassing them all along!! WTH?!?!?"

Next what rules are no longer against the rules since Admin said they were OK? Who knows all the rules that can be broken? Ever stop to think that people will naturally assume that since Kenzu is admins brother that he is the ONLY one who knows all the rules that can be bypassed? While others might know 1, or 2, or some but not all?

#3
I fully agree. Now if you will start daily bugging Martin to correct the issue since it has now been highlighted so well since it IS your job as the forum Admin and a member of Admin support. Then if Martin can find the time to actually correct an issue that he has been aware of for many, many months.

You also need to not only consider new accounts but Every account. You need to understand how it looks to those playing now as well as those coming in. Basically you have just told everyone that if they followed the rules then they basically got jipped because others did not, were told they did not have to, and were able to gain one hell of an advantage because they did follow the rules as listed for all to see. I'm willing to bet the first question for many will be "How many more rules are worthless and do not need to be followed?"

by kingkongfan1 Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:26 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
Me, other people and admin all find it normal to buy an account and strip resources from it (if it doesnt offset your PTR too much into red). Since admin allows it, it means it's not against rules, despite game rules stating otherwise.

Interesting comment here, so someone please explain to me how it is that any player is supposed to know this information especially when the rules clearly state the opposite? nevermind, not important, my point is made & I am done with this convo.

by Special Agent 47 Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:38 am

Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:Kenzu,

Are you willing to discuss this further and answer some questions asked before but never answered?

Yes of course.

The only thing I don't want to do is repeating what I have said many times. Unanswered questions are fine.

So what do you want to ask?

I made this a second post/double post because I know your tendency to quote everything in its entirety and it makes for a wall of text that's often to much and things get lost.

I want to fully understand the explanation you give to the only issue I have a problem with. That is the accusation that you and Sara play both accounts.

Now please correct me where I am wrong. Understand this is written as an opinion of what you are claiming to be the truth, not written as fact. Then you can explain where I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

It is my understanding that you claim that You and Sara live together, and therefore communicate in real life as to when to bank and how to attack. So would this be correct?

It is my understanding that you claim that you and Sara often tell each other when to bank so that one or the other of you do not get farmed or lose precious resources, and like wise only attack together and never alone nor never on separate targets. Is this correct?

Just wondering if you missed this by chance, and if you have had time to talk to Martin about the issues brought to light in the posts above.

by fivel Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:00 pm

maybe after the war he will find the time to write 2 lines of text for you Razz

by castravete Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:59 pm

Meantime he is busy in faking numbers, feeding his accounts and finding some poor sucker to convince him to join the cause and mass us a little. It is not that easy to play on two accounts on the same time and trying to keep them both fed up.

Maybe he will also try to give is that unceonsoured picture we are waiting for so long...

by Keinutnai Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:19 pm

Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:Kenzu,

Are you willing to discuss this further and answer some questions asked before but never answered?

Yes of course.

The only thing I don't want to do is repeating what I have said many times. Unanswered questions are fine.

So what do you want to ask?

I made this a second post/double post because I know your tendency to quote everything in its entirety and it makes for a wall of text that's often to much and things get lost.

I want to fully understand the explanation you give to the only issue I have a problem with. That is the accusation that you and Sara play both accounts.

Now please correct me where I am wrong. Understand this is written as an opinion of what you are claiming to be the truth, not written as fact. Then you can explain where I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

It is my understanding that you claim that You and Sara live together, and therefore communicate in real life as to when to bank and how to attack. So would this be correct?
Yes, you understand fairly correct. Although I wouldn't say that the cause of "communicating in real life when to bank and how to attack" to be living together. I'd say that by living together it's much easier to coordinate this. Of course you can also coordinate attacks through skype or phone, you don't necessary have to be living together, but it will be clear that when a person is only 1 meter away from you, all coordination and reminding is much easier.

It is my understanding that you claim that you and Sara often tell each other when to bank so that one or the other of you do not get farmed or lose precious resources, and like wise only attack together and never alone nor never on separate targets. Is this correct?
Well, it's mostly me reminding her. All in all what you say is correct, except the following: "only attack together and never alone nor never on separate targets."
The sentence "only attack together and never alone nor never on separate targets." is incorrect, because even though we often attack together, sometimes it is only her attacking or only me attacking. I also never said that we would never attack on separate targets, and I am not even sure what exactly you mean by that. If you want to destroy an account, you usually need multiple people participating in taking down an account. A person can usually mass alone only if the person focuses on assaults. One player for example is unlikely to take out defense, assassins and spies all by himself due to the ST cost.

I didn't yet get to it. I am fairly busy since november.

I hope this answers all your questions well. I'll get back to the other posts some other time.

Do you have more questions?

by castravete Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:41 pm

Lol...I wonder who buys this crap.

by Special Agent 47 Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Keinutnai wrote:

Do you have more questions?

Yes I do.

To explain my statement, or rather question about the 2 of you attacking together, what I noticed in our own war and from what I have seen in your current war the 2 accounts never act separately. The few times WR has been able to pull off more then 1 strike team at the same time both you and Sara worked on the same team. Even when multiple WR members were attacking the same target at the same time, you and Sara never did so. Seeing how at times you two carried different sized strikes one might assume you would fall into a different strike group and therefore end up going after 2 separate targets. Even with the set up of handing off a target sometimes attacks would overlap in many situations. Tho this isn't the case for you two.(This does not need a response, was just trying to explain my statement so you might see why I said it, your response was sufficient that no response to this is needed)

So back to the questions.

So you remind Sara to bank and train every 2 hours for weeks on end. She never thinks of it before you? Never logs in before you? And you must admit that it seems rather odd to an outsider looking in that the log in times are so uniform. *So you want to say that when you tell her to bank she stops whatever she is doing and logs in roughly exact same few seconds or so? How can you explain that she never waits a few seconds to finish reading what ever she is reading, or finish doing whatever she is doing? I mean do you go and alert her and then wait for her to get ready? Is that how you keep the log in times so close? How do you explain no log in times so close together its impossible to not be 2 separate people? If she logs in on your verbal reminder, then how is it possible she never logs in at the same time, or withing 2, 3, 4, or so few seconds it could prove the only way you can be playing 2 accounts is to be logging in on 1 PC with one hand and logging into a second PC with the other hand?

OK on reread the obedient and well trained remark sounds very rude/harsh. That is not the intent. I have sat here for many minutes trying to find better words to use to express that but I am coming up short. I'll edit it if you find it offensive, and any suggestions for any better wording with the same meaning would be appreciated.

by Keinutnai Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:20 am

Please explain what you mean by:

acting separately
"what I noticed in our own war and from what I have seen in your current war the 2 accounts never act separately."
We act together whenever it helps our cause and separately whenever acting separately helps our cause.

"The few times WR has been able to pull off more then 1 strike team at the same time both you and Sara worked on the same team."
what's your definition of "more than 1 strike team"
my definition is that a strike team which has a different composition of members is a different strike team, and that a team of players who are doing a massing are a strike team. So when a strike team meets it can engage a number of of enemies and in each operation only one strike team is necessary. Does your alliance have different strike teams, which never cooperate? If yes, then this is a problem in understanding. Our alliance is not split up in multiple strike teams that don't cooperate. We have a group of people who mass, and the strike teams are formed out of them. Me and Sara have the strongest accounts, and since I organise practically all strikes, it is clear that I am involved in almost all of them. Sara is involved whenever it makes sense for her to participate, which is the case in most operations. Of course sometimes she doesn't participate.

I am not sure how the participation in strikes is relevant in this topic at all. Or do you want to suggest that it's unlikely for two people, who live together to mass together anytime they want, when they already bank together?

"Seeing how at times you two carried different sized strikes one might assume you would fall into a different strike group and therefore end up going after 2 separate targets."
If one player has a big strike, and the other medium sized strike then what this often means is that when taking out an account first big strike players take it down, and then medium sized ones continue for the smallest strike players to take out the rest. That's how it has been done in most cases in most wars. Or it means that while some strikers are assigned to taking out the def, other ones, will be assigned to hunt assassins. Big strikers are almost always taking out defs, while medium sized ones take out assassins.

So you remind Sara to bank and train every 2 hours for weeks on end. She never thinks of it before you? Never logs in before you?
She does. I said it's mostly me who reminds her. I didn't say it's always me. Please read my answers more carefully.

And you must admit that it seems rather odd to an outsider looking in that the log in times are so uniform.
It indeed looks suspicious. But what matters is if it is legal or not. And it is legal.
Do people get pissed about that? Some people yes, but isn't it weird I only hear it from some people I was at war with. Why is it only people I went to war with that they think I cheat? How come WR people and many others don't think I cheat? I tell you why, because while probably most people think that it can look suspicious to outsiders, most people also realise that it's possible. The only difference being that people who are our enemies would benefit from punishing members of an enemy alliance and thus they are willing to press charges against someone they know could be innocent for their own benefit.

I personally wouldn't accuse or call someone a cheater only because I have the suspicious that someone cheats. If I have a suspicion, I report the person immediately, asking for it to be checked. But trying to destroy someone's reputation because of a mere suspicion. I consider this foul play.

"I mean she is so obedient and well trained that upon command she drops whatever she is doing and logs in roughly the exact same few seconds or so?"
I consider this very offensive. You will not talk like this about my wife!
I see such offensive remarks again, I will end the discussion with you immediately.
If you can't think of a better way to write it, then don't write it at all!

I mean do you go and alert her and then wait for her to get ready?
Don't be ridiculous.

Is that how you keep the log in times so close? How do you explain no log in times so close together its impossible to not be 2 separate people? If she logs in on your verbal reminder, then how is it possible she never logs in at the same time, or withing 2, 3, 4, or so few seconds it could prove the only way you can be playing 2 accounts is to be logging in on 1 PC with one hand and logging into a second PC with the other hand?

The log in times are not always close. Of course we try to log in as often as possible during war. It's impossible what you are saying. We must have logged in countless times even in the same second. I am sure about that.

And here is an example how you could rephrase the sentence:
So you want to say that when you tell her to bank she stops whatever she is doing and logs in roughly exact same few seconds or so?

by Special Agent 47 Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:34 pm

Keinutnai wrote:Please explain what you mean by:

acting separately
"what I noticed in our own war and from what I have seen in your current war the 2 accounts never act separately."
We act together whenever it helps our cause and separately whenever acting separately helps our cause.
Funny thing is I have personally never seen you act alone. It would seem to me if 2 separate people played 2 seperate accounts that at some point in time they would actually play independently one one another.

"The few times WR has been able to pull off more then 1 strike team at the same time both you and Sara worked on the same team."
what's your definition of "more than 1 strike team"
my definition is that a strike team which has a different composition of members is a different strike team, and that a team of players who are doing a massing are a strike team. So when a strike team meets it can engage a number of of enemies and in each operation only one strike team is necessary. Does your alliance have different strike teams, which never cooperate? If yes, then this is a problem in understanding. Our alliance is not split up in multiple strike teams that don't cooperate. We have a group of people who mass, and the strike teams are formed out of them. Me and Sara have the strongest accounts, and since I organise practically all strikes, it is clear that I am involved in almost all of them. Sara is involved whenever it makes sense for her to participate, which is the case in most operations. Of course sometimes she doesn't participate.
The definition of more then 1 strike team is more then 1 group attacking to cover more targets at the same time

I am not sure how the participation in strikes is relevant in this topic at all. Or do you want to suggest that it's unlikely for two people, who live together to mass together anytime they want, when they already bank together?
It is relevant because it gos to show the 2 separate accounts do not act independently. Further proof that the 2 accounts are ran by the same person. If 2 separate people play 2 separate accounts at some point in time they WILL deviate. While you claim it is two separate people playing and everything is legal, the actual physical play of the accounts can only come from 2 options. The first is 1 player playing them both, and the second is 2 people playing them in such coordination that it makes no sense what so ever for 2 people to be THAT committed to "a Game".

"Seeing how at times you two carried different sized strikes one might assume you would fall into a different strike group and therefore end up going after 2 separate targets."
If one player has a big strike, and the other medium sized strike then what this often means is that when taking out an account first big strike players take it down, and then medium sized ones continue for the smallest strike players to take out the rest. That's how it has been done in most cases in most wars. Or it means that while some strikers are assigned to taking out the def, other ones, will be assigned to hunt assassins. Big strikers are almost always taking out defs, while medium sized ones take out assassins.
Correct, and no one is arguing any of that. What is being pointed out is the fact that while your account would be attacking, then other WR accounts would join in while your account was slowing or stopping, yet Sara's account never overlapped yours in attacks. How is it that so many "suspicious" activities happen with the exact same two accounts? Don't bother answering as its a redundant questions that everyone knows the answer too.

So you remind Sara to bank and train every 2 hours for weeks on end. She never thinks of it before you? Never logs in before you?
She does. I said it's mostly me who reminds her. I didn't say it's always me. Please read my answers more carefully.
The why is it not reflected in anyone experiences or any of the recorded data displayed? Any normal 2 people would never be able to hold the perfect pattern of log ins, banks, and attacks that your and Sara account can do.

And you must admit that it seems rather odd to an outsider looking in that the log in times are so uniform.
It indeed looks suspicious. But what matters is if it is legal or not. And it is legal.
Do people get pissed about that? Some people yes, but isn't it weird I only hear it from some people I was at war with. Why is it only people I went to war with that they think I cheat? How come WR people and many others don't think I cheat? I tell you why, because while probably most people think that it can look suspicious to outsiders, most people also realise that it's possible. The only difference being that people who are our enemies would benefit from punishing members of an enemy alliance and thus they are willing to press charges against someone they know could be innocent for their own benefit.
Define legal. As we have already seen the posted rules and the rules Admin allows people to play by are 2 totally different rule sets. So I for one have to wonder when you claim it is legal, is it legal because of a posted rule Admin allows people to break, is it legal because because it is 2 separate people playing with such uniform precision that it is hard to believe it is even humanly possible, or is it legal because your admins brother and because "hypothetically" its possible? Again don't bother answering as its a redundant question everyone knows the answer too.

As for only hearing it from people you are at war with, let me give you a heads up. Its not because only people you are at war with think it, it is more because only people you are at war with tend to communicate with you. Munjengan are not the only ones who believe you alone play both accounts, and more then munjengan have believed it for weeks, months, and years.

I personally wouldn't accuse or call someone a cheater only because I have the suspicious that someone cheats. If I have a suspicion, I report the person immediately, asking for it to be checked. But trying to destroy someone's reputation because of a mere suspicion. I consider this foul play.
Smog and Vaga had extremely compelling evidence against you which they posted here for all to see. Instead of a serious investigation it was blown off as a BS claim by admin publicly and no investigation done. Or if anything was done it was never publicly disclosed. This evidence was so compelling and so damning that had it been ANYONE else besides you a full and serious investigation would have happened. When specific information was requested from admin by the public to prove both you were innocent and there was a real investigation the request were denied. You may consider what they are doing as foul play, and I can not say I disagree with you, but it is well deserved and earned by your actions and by admins actions. Had the situation been handled right from the start things might be different now, but as things went down I think Munjengan is perfectly right in what they are doing.

"I mean she is so obedient and well trained that upon command she drops whatever she is doing and logs in roughly the exact same few seconds or so?"
I consider this very offensive. You will not talk like this about my wife!
I see such offensive remarks again, I will end the discussion with you immediately.
If you can't think of a better way to write it, then don't write it at all!

End this conversation whenever you like. If you want to get all defensive and pissy go right ahead. Hell I am the only person even willing to listen to your side of the story, and the only one giving you a chance to explain things. Everyone else just writes you off as a liar and a cheat. I clearly told you that remark did not read right and by its intent, and offered to you to edit it to something more appropriate if words could be found. I could not find words. Your reaction shows you just want to be upset and looking for a reason to blow up.

I mean do you go and alert her and then wait for her to get ready?
Don't be ridiculous.
You call it ridiculous? Yet you expect us to accept and believe that you and sara are 2 separate people playing 2 separate accounts who are able to hold uniform log ins, never overlapping, never at odd times, always same order, no actions coming from the 2 accounts at the same time, and the 2 of you never playing the game independently of each other for weeks and months on end. You have the nerve to tell me to not be ridiculous?

Is that how you keep the log in times so close? How do you explain no log in times so close together its impossible to not be 2 separate people? If she logs in on your verbal reminder, then how is it possible she never logs in at the same time, or withing 2, 3, 4, or so few seconds it could prove the only way you can be playing 2 accounts is to be logging in on 1 PC with one hand and logging into a second PC with the other hand?

The log in times are not always close. Of course we try to log in as often as possible during war. It's impossible what you are saying. We must have logged in countless times even in the same second. I am sure about that.
Then why was it not reflected in the evidence posted against you? Why has it not been evident in the experiences of those who have fought and still fight you? Most importantly why was it not brought up and exposed when it was asked for in the initial thread asking for you investigation? You say it happens, yet suspiciously once again no one sees it.

And here is an example how you could rephrase the sentence:
So you want to say that when you tell her to bank she stops whatever she is doing and logs in roughly exact same few seconds or so?

Now I am going to put my 2 cents in on this and explain exactly why I believe the claims made against you. You say that you and Sara have this great system set up. One that is completely legal and allows you two to be able to do all this stuff that looks so suspicious, yet during a war where myself and my alliance found the EXACT same thing Munjengan found and posted, Sara came to forums asking, or rather stating, she had been massed for no reason by myself. The 2 of you are so well in tune you can pull off exact evenly spaced log ins for weeks at a time but one of you knows you were at war and the other didn't? I find that just too hard to believe. The other issue I found that is further damning to your case is while you claim it is all possible, what you and Sara do with uniform log ins, timing, no overlapping attacks, all that,,,,,,,You were able to do while separate. The two of you were able to do it while in different cities/states or whatever. You might could get me to accept 2 people in the same house could pull off all you claim, but I just find it entirely to hard to swallow that 2 people in 2 different places can still pull off uniformed log ins as the 2 of you did. You can not get me to believe that you called Sara, she dropped what she was doing and logged in 20 to 40 seconds after you consistently for weeks while she was not living with you (as in the same house). Another damning issue is Admins actions when it was put before him. I didn't get "blown off" like vaga and smog, I got a rant. So from that point on I just accepted it as something that will never go away.

by kingkongfan1 Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:03 pm

Spoiler:

my two cents on this, take this evidence to any court in the country, & a jury would find the defendant guilty of cheating. circumstantial or not, the evidence is quite damning.

by castravete Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:36 pm

If you find this very offensive in your wife's name why doesn't she stand up for her a little on the forum?...Since this demonstration of you cheating has been successfully going on she never stand up for her. Were you to busy to create an forum account for her? Or she thinks that silence is a good enough answer? I also noticed that you farmed me a lot with your main account, but you hit with Sara just 1 time at 2 weeks. Now I like the way you two guys synchronize yourselves but if you care about her so much why don't you allow her to farm something? Another thing: if I raise a def you quickly raise a def with Keinutnai and mass a little as much as your sore loser possibilities and if I raised it back instantly you go instantly and raise another strike with the Sara account. If I were to keep my def low you would have never built another strike again on you other account...True?

I think the only one buying this crap is his brother: the one with "Kenzu is the most honest man I know". Now quit the act Kenzu and stop defending this virtual player and try to admit that it's just you wearing a skirt every time you log on your other account. Now show us that magic print so we could also see the deals you guys put up between these two accounts;)

by Keinutnai Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:46 pm

castravete wrote:If you find this very offensive in your wife's name why doesn't she stand up for her a little on the forum?...Since this demonstration of you cheating has been successfully going on she never stand up for her. Were you to busy to create an forum account for her? Or she thinks that silence is a good enough answer? I also noticed that you farmed me a lot with your main account, but you hit with Sara just 1 time at 2 weeks. Now I like the way you two guys synchronize yourselves but if you care about her so much why don't you allow her to farm something? Another thing: if I raise a def you quickly raise a def with Keinutnai and mass a little as much as your sore loser possibilities and if I raised it back instantly you go instantly and raise another strike with the Sara account. If I were to keep my def low you would have never built another strike again on you other account...True?

I think the only one buying this crap is his brother: the one with "Kenzu is the most honest man I know". Now quit the act Kenzu and stop defending this virtual player and try to admit that it's just you wearing a skirt every time you log on your other account. Now show us that magic print so we could also see the deals you guys put up between these two accounts;)

This might hurt your feelings, but she doesn't care about you and she doesn't care about your accusations either. I don't even think she ever bothers to read the forums either. Haven't seen her reading the forums for ages anyway.

In reference to your skirt statement:
Post here a photo of yourself wearing a skirt and maybe it will convince me to give you the screenshot.
This isn't the first time you have mentioned skirts. Why are you so obsessed with skirts? Do you keep mentioning guys wearing skirts because you secretly fantasize about wearing them yourself?

@Special Agent 47
I will get back to you in the next post.

@kingkongfan1
Maybe a Mujengan jury would find me guilty, but I am certain that a neutral jury would find me innocent.

by kingkongfan1 Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:32 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
@kingkongfan1
Maybe a Mujengan jury would find me guilty, but I am certain that a neutral jury would find me innocent.

I am not referring to people in this game only. I am quite certain that a neutral jury would find you guilty based upon the evidence posted. as usual you & I will have to agree to disagree on this subject & I am fine with it as more often than not you & I do not agree.

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