The Imperium Empire Farming Policy - 40hours & Counting.

Evening All.

It is with regret I must announce the intention of The Imperium Empire to terminate the peace-treaty we have with The Order of Chaos.

We have made known our protests over the recent adoption of the breach-procedure by Mujengen - making them as early as the 7th of September - and we again informed T.O.C of those protests with the following message sent to both Kenzu & Lord Ishurue on the 17th of September:

Spoiler:

It has been 2 days since the above notification was sent. Neither points in which we asked for clarification have been satisfied... consequently, despite re-assurances by T.O.C they are "discussing" them, we feel we can no longer wait any longer given 48hours should be more than sufficient for communication purposes we ve stated we perceive as a urgent matter.

We feel we have been ignored and when we ve raised the issue... purposely sidelined or delayed via reassurances which have resulted in absolutely nothing being done by T.O.C to address the above points.

As such - At 2pm UK GMT Tuesday the 21st of September the below policy will hereby take effect regarding farming done against The Imperium, and farming done by The Imperium.

We are terminating the peace treaty because we feel the prohibition on hostile force will render the below policy unenforceable against T.O.C members should they breach it when farming The Imperium - and it is our intention to enforce it against *everyone* when necessary.

The termination of the peace treaty should not be taken as a statement of intention by The Imperium Empire to resume the previous TIE vs. T.O.C war - for there are no such intentions. We view that war as finished & over, and hope to continue friendly & warm relations - and hopefully better communication than we currently have experienced - with T.O.C and anyone else for that matter.

Until 2pm UK GMT Tuesday the 21st of September, the agreed upon TIE & TOC farming policy will continue to be in effect - this is the period in which any rational & logical input can be given in order to *possibly* allow some amendments to take effect before the policy is implemented.

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Untrained Unit Rate = 175,000

Farming Done Against The Imperium = Profit requirement of army size x 150.

Farming Done by Imperium Members = Need only make 250million profit.

Exception to Farming Done by The Imperium:

If you have a satisfactory Tech level. Satisfactory = 11% average techs for every 1billion defence power. I.e.
player with 4billion defence power = needs a average of 144% techs.

Anyone with techs above 175% will fall under the army size x 150 profit rule regardless of defence power (i.e. 8billion defence will only need 175% average techs).

Average techs = 4 techs added together/ 4 i.e. attack, covert, defence, assassin

If a player satisfies this... then the profit requirement is army size x 150.

Incase anyone wants a summarized version:

Untrained Unit Rate = 175,000

When Farming Imperium Members: Profit Requirement is army size x 150

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Farming Done by Imperium Members = Need only make 250million profit.

Exception to Farming Done by The Imperium:

If you have a satisfactory Tech level. Satisfactory = 11% average techs for every 1billion defence power. I.e.
player with 4billion defence power = needs a average of 144% techs.

Anyone with techs above 175% will fall under the army size x 150 profit rule regardless of defence power (i.e. 8billion defence will only need 175% average techs).

Average techs = 4 techs added together/ 4 i.e. attack, covert, defence, assassins

If a player satisfies this... then the profit requirement is army size x 150.

This doesn't include personal bonus points by the way incase anyone is wondering

Are you joking?
Best of luck with this.
TM will use our policy as it is much easier to figure out.

I agree. This is quite confusing at first glance and would be kinda tedious to everyone who just wants to make a simple farm. Isn't this game slow enough without making this overly complicated policies?

seaborgium wrote:Are you joking?
Best of luck with this.
TM will use our policy as it is much easier to figure out.

Lol, I figured its best to stick with what you know... so changed it back to profit = army size x 150 for TIE. Much simpler & it seems reasonably satisfactory.

ian wrote:

seaborgium wrote:Are you joking?
Best of luck with this.
TM will use our policy as it is much easier to figure out.

Lol, I figured its best to stick with what you know... so changed it back to profit = army size x 150 for TIE. Much simpler & it seems reasonably satisfactory.

I agree with SEA we stick to ours much easier to understand than this.

But at least you left ToC morronick farming policy.

WR will stick to the current TOC-TIE policy which has been agreed by TOC and TIE long time ago already.

Imperium is welcome to set any policy they like as long as it doesn't influence World Republic. Any hit which is against our farming policy will be compensated with 130%.

If any member doesn't pay 130% compensation in time, he will be massed by TOC.

Lol.

Just for the pure drama of it all:

Any TIE member massed by another alliance or organisation while conducting farming hits done within the above policy, will be treated as a massing against TIE itself - resulting in it being a act of war against TIE by the organisation in question.

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The way I see it, there are several considerations:

1.) TIE is currently being farmed reasonably often by T.O.C. We have done absolutely nothing to change that - TOC's farming of TIE can & will continue. We infact welcome it - it helps keep TIE member's activity up.

2.) TIE's current farming of T.O.C is minimal. This policy change will affect only those with large defences who are poorly teched - allowing TIE to farm them for a minimum of 250million profit - therefore increasing farming done by TIE against T.O.C,but only on a select minority.

Those with high defences and poor techs by and large generally fall into 2 categories:

1.) Barely active & therefore have a very poorly balanced account.
2.) Not very smart players who think pure numbers = awesome.

So... basically then, what Kenzu is saying is this:

TIE can change its policy how it wants as long as it doesn't affect T.O.C. If however TIE's policy means TIE members will be farming T.O.C members who are poorly teched a.k.a. barely active in breach of TOC's policy - then T.O.C will demand compensation. If compensation is not given for those hits on those poor activity members - T.O.C will mass the TIE members in question, thereby declaring war on TIE.

The TIE member's only crime will be to profitably farm whats almost certainly a barely active T.O.C member. Yet he ll get massed because those he farmed chose to build pure numbers over techs - thereby allowing him to profitably farm them (if they had decent techs coupled with those trained defence forces its likely they would be a lot less farmable & the hit wouldn't have happened).

I can't speak for T.O.C... but I can for TIE. As such, I can say TIE IS prepared to go to war to enforce our rights to farm barely active players. This situation draws disturbing parallels to when The Commonwealth was first formed on Aderan Wars and Kenzu personally messaged Magnus threatening to mass him if he continued to farm/raid inactives within WR's ranks (saying they were reserved for WR). There seems to be a strong inclination to protect poor activity/ No activity members from being farmed....

We eventually stood up to WR & their allies then... and we ll stand up to them again now if need be.

3.) When Mujengen decided to change the TOC-TIE policy (over a week ago btw), TIE protested and got ignored. Now when we decide to change the TIE-TOC policy... all of a sudden that policy still remains in existence and was agreed a "long time ago" according to Kenzu.

Sorry Kenzu... the policy TIE agreed to was one without a time-limit on breaches being compensated. As of a week ago Mujengen changed that policy... effectively making it no longer exist and be replaced with a different one. If a policy doesn't exist, it can't be agreed to - and since TIE hasn't agreed to the new policy.... well, we aren't bound to it.

4.) Kenzu's favorite argument regarding farming done against T.O.C members - or rather, farming not able to be done against T.O.C members - is that if those members invested the resources into building that defence, they should have reasonable protection from being farmed.

He is right... to an extent. Pure power & numbers are important in deciding whether a player can be profitably farmed. But it must also be considered this is a war game - and as such, defence protecting against farming is only one of its purposes - the other purpose along with the other stats is to serve the member in war-time. To this extent... techs are important.

Thus... Kenzu says someone investing in defence should be protected from most farming. I & The Imperium say someone who's invested into techs should be protected from farming - investing in techs is merely another form of investing into protection from farmers after all.

Its also worth noting - in previous conversations Kenzu has stated (when asked about the issue of TOC farming of TIE being heavy), that TIE should have adequate defences to avoid getting farmed. My & TIE's response: TOC should have adequate techs to avoid getting farmed.

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Its also worth noting the current situation happening between Mujengen & Marauders:

- TOC's farming policy is profit = army size x 150
- The Marauders farming policy is profit = army size x 150.

A Mujengen member breaches The Marauder's policy via farming a active player and so far Mujengen & the member in question have refused to compensate the breach and the situation may well escalate further.

Then when TIE posts a policy which in a *small* number of cases will result in a TIE member breaking TOC's farming policy via farming barely active T.O.C members profitably.... TOC says they ll mass those responsible for the breaches. Sounds fair to everyone?

There is the final consideration: Talking to Lord Ishurue last night and he said Mujengen most likely won't have a issue with TIE's new policy regarding farming done by us. So when Kenzu talks on behalf of T.O.C - the question arises.... does he really, or does he just assume to?

Either way, the days of T.O.C getting everything it wants is over. The new TIE policy continues to allow farming against TIE by T.O.C... while allowing TIE farming of T.O.C to hopefully increase to a fairer more equal level of farming.

ian wrote:Evening All.

It is with regret I must announce the intention of The Imperium Empire to terminate the peace-treaty we have with The Order of Chaos.

We have made known our protests over the recent adoption of the breach-procedure by Mujengen - making them as early as the 7th of September - and we again informed T.O.C of those protests with the following message sent to both Kenzu & Lord Ishurue on the 17th of September:

Spoiler:

It has been 2 days since the above notification was sent. Neither points in which we asked for clarification have been satisfied... consequently, despite re-assurances by T.O.C they are "discussing" them, we feel we can no longer wait any longer given 48hours should be more than sufficient for communication purposes we ve stated we perceive as a urgent matter.

We feel we have been ignored and when we ve raised the issue... purposely sidelined or delayed via reassurances which have resulted in absolutely nothing being done by T.O.C to address the above points.

As such - At 2pm UK GMT Tuesday the 21st of September the below policy will hereby take effect regarding farming done against The Imperium, and farming done by The Imperium.

We are terminating the peace treaty because we feel the prohibition on hostile force will render the below policy unenforceable against T.O.C members should they breach it when farming The Imperium - and it is our intention to enforce it against *everyone* when necessary.

The termination of the peace treaty should not be taken as a statement of intention by The Imperium Empire to resume the previous TIE vs. T.O.C war - for there are no such intentions. We view that war as finished & over, and hope to continue friendly & warm relations - and hopefully better communication than we currently have experienced - with T.O.C and anyone else for that matter.

Until 2pm UK GMT Tuesday the 21st of September, the agreed upon TIE & TOC farming policy will continue to be in effect - this is the period in which any rational & logical input can be given in order to *possibly* allow some amendments to take effect before the policy is implemented.

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Untrained Unit Rate = 175,000

Farming Done Against The Imperium = Profit requirement of army size x 150.

Farming Done by Imperium Members = Need only make 250million profit.

Exception to Farming Done by The Imperium:

If you have a satisfactory Tech level. Satisfactory = 11% average techs for every 1billion defence power. I.e.
player with 4billion defence power = needs a average of 144% techs.

Anyone with techs above 175% will fall under the army size x 150 profit rule regardless of defence power (i.e. 8billion defence will only need 175% average techs).

Average techs = 4 techs added together/ 4 i.e. attack, covert, defence, assassin

If a player satisfies this... then the profit requirement is army size x 150.

"We feel we have been ignored and when we ve raised the issue... purposely sidelined or delayed via reassurances which have resulted in absolutely nothing being done by T.O.C to address the above points."
=> Which is not true because we have been dealing with it and it has been solved already.

I see that your policy has been made to be unfair against everyone who is NOT in Imperium.

While you require Armysize*150 profit against Imperium members
This means 1.500.000.000 profit against 10 million players
and it means 3.200.000.000 profit against 22.7 million players like yourself,

you allow TIE to farm others for only 250.000.000 profit

This means that a player who is as big as you and NOT in Imperium can be farmed by you with 250.000.000 profit, while he can farm you only if he can make 3.200.000.000 profit.

It is unacceptable.

Example:
Someone who earns 15 billion a day, and logs in 2 times a day needs 7.5 billion defense, but this would ACCORDING TO YOUR POLICY require him to spend 6.000.000.000.000, 6 TRILLION kuwal on research. In other words it's something that's not going to happen. For 10% of this value he can easily replace all military after being massed.

I have almost 12 billion defense and loads of spies and assassins, and even if I get massed, I can replace them all for 10% of what you want people to invest in research, even if they are much smaller than me.

This policy puts EVERYONE who put personal bonus points into DEFENSE at GREAT DISADVANTAGE. Someone who has say 5 billion defense, might have 30 points in defense, which gives +40.5% defense, which means that even though he spent only 5 billion on defense, he will be forced to have 170% in all stats!

Detailed Example: Someone who produces 15 billion per day, needs roughly 7.5 billion defense if he logs in 2 times a day. But according to you he needs 175% in all techs. which means that he has to spend 6.006.000.000.000 kuwal on research, That's 6 TRILLION!!!

were in fact he probably needs only 150% tech in each type, which costed him 1.912.000.000, less than 2 TRILLION

With 150% tech and Tank weapons, 1 super has a power of 16.500. So he has 454.454 armed supers, which cost him only 208 billion to train and arm, it's only a drop compared to the 6 trillion you are asking for.

Why the hell should anyone with a clear mind invest another 4 TRILLION kuwal into research if for the same amount of kuwal he could buy 22.8 million UU and train them into farmers at the UU price of 170k/UU?

Instead of investing 4 TRILLION INTO RESEARCH, he could buy, train and arm 6.396.000 supers, which he could use to increase his defenses 14-fold, or simply use them to mass the people who are making such ridiculous suggestions.

If I can replace all my defenses for 285 billion, or increase defenses by 25% for 71 billion, then of course I will not be stupid enough to spend 4.000 billion instead on increasing all stats by 25%, just because some policy states so.

Interesting points Kenzu.


I have not done any maths on at what levels research is optimal etc, but there are other aspects though that you have not talked about.

Some that cross my mind:

With more supers+weapons, you lose income in every tic (not that much, but you do).

With every hit you do or receive and you have losses (hitting an active or getting hit), with high reasearch you lose less supers per hit in comparison with someone with lower stats and more supers.
Basically your own hits on actives during war or not are more profitable/efficient with some good stats...

Now what are the optimal stats for someone's level that's a big conversation and needs maths which i am bored to do :p

You present it only black and white Kenzu and even if you raise some good points, this is not exactly as you say so.

hmm the only thing I can think of is how much my 200% tech kicked major butt in the war, and made it hard to be massed with out everyone losing a lot.

@Ian, even though I am unaffected by TIE's change in policy, there are two things I'd like to say:
1) People have their own farming policies, TIE does not determine my farming policy. As such telling me you will farm me for army size * 150 profit under certain conditions makes you in no way compliant with my policy (which may either lead to missed opportunities or retribution, depending on the mismatch with my policy.)
2) A farming policy that discriminates against people outside your alliance reflects badly on you. The size-based farming policy already discriminates against smaller players and this tech addition makes it even worse.
Personally, I don't see the difference between farming a 10M account for 4 billion profit, causing 1 bilion in damages and farming a 1M account for the same, except that the 1M account will probably find it harder to recover.

Beldar wrote:Interesting points Kenzu.


I have not done any maths on at what levels research is optimal etc, but there are other aspects though that you have not talked about.

Some that cross my mind:

With more supers+weapons, you lose income in every tic (not that much, but you do).

With every hit you do or receive and you have losses (hitting an active or getting hit), with high reasearch you lose less supers per hit in comparison with someone with lower stats and more supers.
Basically your own hits on actives during war or not are more profitable/efficient with some good stats...

Now what are the optimal stats for someone's level that's a big conversation and needs maths which i am bored to do :p

You present it only black and white Kenzu and even if you raise some good points, this is not exactly as you say so.

What is worse? spending 4 trillion on research,
OR
spending 0.6 trillion to double military in all classes and spend the remaining 3.4 trillion on increasing UP and buying UU to be trained as farmers?

I think we both know the answer.

seaborgium wrote:hmm the only thing I can think of is how much my 200% tech kicked major butt in the war, and made it hard to be massed with out everyone losing a lot.

If you stopped at 160%, you would be able to kick much more butt AND have a huge population after the war, 2 or 3 times higher than what you have now.

Jiro wrote:@Ian, even though I am unaffected by TIE's change in policy, there are two things I'd like to say:
1) People have their own farming policies, TIE does not determine my farming policy. As such telling me you will farm me for army size * 150 profit under certain conditions makes you in no way compliant with my policy (which may either lead to missed opportunities or retribution, depending on the mismatch with my policy.)
2) A farming policy that discriminates against people outside your alliance reflects badly on you. The size-based farming policy already discriminates against smaller players and this tech addition makes it even worse.
Personally, I don't see the difference between farming a 10M account for 4 billion profit, causing 1 bilion in damages and farming a 1M account for the same, except that the 1M account will probably find it harder to recover.

You are right, but apparently ian doesn't care what people think about him and Imperium anyway. I mean it's not like suddently changed and became someone new. We are dealing with these kind of things because of him for over a year now.

It was already so much trouble to get this treaty on its feet, especially due to the stubbornness, and now, after all the negotiations we have done he leaves the farming policy he signed before. I sure hope this is something temporary, because it's something that can't work, and I am not sure if ian realized that yet, even though I already told him about it days ago.

1+1 is not 3, and in a game where you don't dominate, you cannot set up rules which most people are against. Then again, if you make ridiculous rules and try to tyrannize people, they will either get rid of you, or simply quit and you end up playing the game all by yourself.

@ Kenzu. I really don't care what you ve just wrote above. I stopped reading after the "I see that your policy has been made to be unfair against everyone who is NOT in Imperium.

While you require Armysize*150 profit against Imperium members
This means 1.500.000.000 profit against 10 million players
and it means 3.200.000.000 profit against 22.7 million players like yourself,

you allow TIE to farm others for only 250.000.000 profit"

You ve not even remotely mentioned 2 points:

1.) This policy only affects a SMALL portion of players. Most T.O.C players actually meet the tech requirements.

2.) Those who meet the tech requirements the profit requirement is army size x 150 = profit... the same as The Imperium's.

Instead, you ve not even mentioned that.

As for "discrimination", I m gonna ask Lord Ishurue to post on this topic later concerning a simple question I have for him & Mujengen:

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Would they be happy with the previous TOC-TIE peace treaty (i.e. army size x 150), if MOST of The Imperium trained 8.5% of their army size in defence, with a total of 25% of our army sizes assigned to military?

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I already know the answer to it - they wouldn't be happy. Why? Because virtually of The Imperium would be virtually unfarmable if we went long periods without logging in i.e. logging in maybe 18hours or so.

They would want a policy change - rightfully I might add. Me & LI have discussed this several times on msn.

The Imperium doing what most of World Republic and some other T.O.C members are doing - building large stats vs. our army sizes - is consequently not a option. We are neither stupid enough to build such large killable-stats in the first place vs. our army size (baring in mind war's tend to happen at least every 6months) and even if we were... you can be pretty much assured within a very short-time period the profit = army size x 150 rule would be binned by T.O.C and a new one adopted to make TIE more farmable.

The situation is really pretty simple therefore:

1.) TIE can't & won't adopt the tactics favoured by World Republic in making less active players unfarmable. Its neither acceptable to us... and not acceptable to a large chunk of T.O.C.

2.) Therefore TIE will no longer tolerate the tactics World Republic uses to make its less active members unfarmable.

3.) If you or World Republic don't like farming being done on some of your less active members... teach them the concept of logging in more frequently, using the relax & overtime buttons, realm alert or otherwise have them boost their techs to a decent level.

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In-case your wondering what the next step is in this little saga if this policy doesn't work... its the adoption (as once upon a time suggested by LI & mujengen) of a excessive defence clause whereupon people who build hugely vulnerable stats (vulnerable = a defence which can be easily assaulted, or otherwise assassinated/sabbed) may find those stats reduced down for them.

Since the idea was originally Mujengen's (albeit it was never implemented), coupled with World Republic's previous links with alliances such as Geto-Dacii (i.e. The Order Empire) - so basically alliances who ve either shown some preference to adopting such a clause, or who ve actually adopted the clause and done stuff such as neutralising vulnerable stats... then World Republic is in absolutely zero position to complain since you ve so happily sort out alliances with people with such views.

Thats the next step... so you d better hope this relatively minor small step The Imperium's taken which impacts a small minority of players - mainly the barely active who don't bother to participate on the AW forum or even your own forums - actually works.

@ Jiro. Discrimination is where someone can do one thing & another can't.

Currently World Republic (and a handful of other TOC members) can make themselves unfarmable via concentrating large chunks of their accounts into military - meaning a relatively small portion invested in income.... which means a lowish income coupled with large, poorly teched military capabilities along with the army size x 150 rule = they are able to go extended periods of time (i.e. longer than most others on AW) without fearing being farmed.

If the *majority* of TIE does that, 1.) We ll be massacred in the next war 2.) T.O.C would change the policy to render such a strategy useless.

So... is it TIE being unfair and discriminating, or is it TIE merely making thing's equal?

Even if Imperium builds 8.5% defense on all accounts, it doesn't matter if Mujengan will be happy over that or not, because we have no treaty forbidding building 8.5% defense and that's why they would not be able to do anything about that. You have said previously that you are afraid that Mujengan would mass Imperium if Imperium built such defenses. WR would prevent that from happening.

Why don't you simply build the 8.5% defense? Build it and none of you will be farmed if they log in 2 times a day.

World Republic has no problem with that. You are a souvereign alliance and you may build any defenses you want.

Regarding your above post Kenzu:

You say World Republic would prevent such a situation occurring where a policy is changed to allow TIE to become farmable if we adopted the same tactics as World Republic to make us unfarmable. My question is... How?

Lets not forget you guaranteed World Republic would defend players who get mass-raided... yet have so far not honoured that pledge. You even had a treaty with Mujengen on mass-raiding which they pulled out of covertly... and what has World Republic done over their pulling out of that treaty and breaking it? Answer: Nothing whatsoever.

Based on ACTUAL conduct which has happened... what exactly would WR do if Mujengen got fed up of not being able to farm TIE, and thus changed the policy (i.e. reduced the profit margin or something) in order to allow farming to resume? The answer: Nothing.

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I m sorry Kenzu... but you ll excuse me if I don't place much faith on World Republic's ability or willingness to intervene in the event Mujengen ever did decide to change the policy. We need only look at the recent breach changes to support that - I seem to recall you/WR also protesting over those changes... and like TIE, you got ignored for basically a week....

Mass-Raiding + The Breach Procedure simply doesn't support what you ve said above - the reality is you have absolutely zero influence over Mujengen, nor little willingness or intention to have any.

The Imperium will not rely upon your garantee's to ensure our well-being.

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That said, if you have a suggestion for a new policy which will allow farming to actually happen against highly militarized (in terms of % of army size) accounts if they haven't logged in for a reasonable time frame (i.e. 8 or 9 hours), then please do make it.

Mindless protesting at what is done (TIE's new policy) won't change anything. It only makes us more determined in upholding it.

Logical suggestions which attempt to deal with our issues, while allowing you to have a semi-satisfactory position, is welcome.

Personally I had a possible brain wave of *total income* units x 13 x weapons level = profit margin.

Logic:

- Weapon level = reflects investment a player's made into their "core" military, coupled with replacing weapons being a largish part of the repair costs to replace lost defence if farmed... so it makes sense for a person with a better weapon level to have a higher profit margin.

- Income Units = They are what actually make the income. Other units don't. It should really only be they which are factored into any profit margin as a result...

Incidentally... incase anyone is wondering why TIE is getting very very very annoyed at WR:

Defensive Action 9,469,748,475
4,232,840 army size

Thats a with 3,007,199 income units. Even if they were all miners (which they aren't) - thats only a 210million income. That person could go 48 turns without logging in and they d only have 10billion out. Anyone attacking that person would probably loose about 5kish men if their strike is half that power - which is about 3.2billion kuwal's worth. So your talking about that person being able to go 7billion+ kuwal out without logging in... about 35 turns worth to make just a 0.3billion profit... which would be illegal under the old TIE-TOC rules.

Defensive Action 9,743,360,000

Farmers 4,831,000 - thats a 240million income. You d need close to a 5billion strike to get half the kuwal that person has out... and you d loose at least 3.5billion in resources. So they could have out 8billion kuwal and you d only make a 0.5billion profit - which would be illegal under the old TIE-TOC rules.

They have a army of 6,545,030

Those are 2 players I randomly spied in WR currently. There are many more similar to it.

Hence... TIE will no longer tolerate the old agreement. If WR wants to be unfarmable.. they should be more active, not build more defences.

@Ian: I think it is good to get some numbers out in the open so that we can decide on numbers rather than opinions or assertions.
A random TIE account, I can tell you who if you ask.
Army size 6,201,170
Defence supers 353,402 (5%)
Defensive Action 7,435,312,500
Farmers 1,766,100
Workers 2,000,000
Miners 1,062,000
According to my calculations AE for him is 76% and turn income without weapon maintenance, officer distribution or officer payments is 205M. This is similar and surprisingly he does never get farmed by me.
(personal opinion: I do not have any moral right to be able to farm him and if he has a busy life, then he can slow his account growth in order to make sure he does not get farmed by increasing investment in military. His choice.)
What I think would help the discussion tremendously is a total amount that TIE gets farmed for per alliance and possibly a total amount that TIE farms other alliances for in order to estimate how big the problem is and where the problem lies. I think this would help to keep the discussion on topic and prevent the discussion from turning into a yes-no fight.
If everyone involved want to arrive at a solution, I am sure we can find one. As for discrimination, you make a good point, and would like to add that smaller accounts are discriminated against as well. I am thinking of the 1M - 3M range, just below GAA. So apparently there is a group of accounts that is significantly better off in this farming policy than others.

Jiro wrote:@Ian: I think it is good to get some numbers out in the open so that we can decide on numbers rather than opinions or assertions.
A random TIE account, I can tell you who if you ask.
Army size 6,201,170
Defence supers 353,402 (5%)
Defensive Action 7,435,312,500
Farmers 1,766,100
Workers 2,000,000
Miners 1,062,000
According to my calculations AE for him is 76% and turn income without weapon maintenance, officer distribution or officer payments is 205M. This is similar and surprisingly he does never get farmed by me.
(personal opinion: I do not have any moral right to be able to farm him and if he has a busy life, then he can slow his account growth in order to make sure he does not get farmed by increasing investment in military. His choice.)
What I think would help the discussion tremendously is a total amount that TIE gets farmed for per alliance and possibly a total amount that TIE farms other alliances for in order to estimate how big the problem is and where the problem lies. I think this would help to keep the discussion on topic and prevent the discussion from turning into a yes-no fight.
If everyone involved want to arrive at a solution, I am sure we can find one. As for discrimination, you make a good point, and would like to add that smaller accounts are discriminated against as well. I am thinking of the 1M - 3M range, just below GAA. So apparently there is a group of accounts that is significantly better off in this farming policy than others.

lol, I appreciate the input.

Incidentally... the above player came off vacation either today or yesterday - with his being on vacation since the start of the TIE-TOC war... so he's unlikely to have been farmed yet

Basically, I ll summarise what TIE wants then:

1.) To not get farmed too heavily. I.e. to be farmed within reason. We think the army size x 150 = profit represents a good compromise on that - offerring some protection to TIE members, while allowing non TIE members to also conduct farming hits at a reasonable rate.

2.) To be able to farm others reasonably often. Since no other alliances other than TOC are protesting at TIE's policy, then its worth only concentrating on TOC here.

Right now I d say if their activity dropped, we could farm a largish chunk of Mujengen reasonably often. They have generally well balanced accounts and rely on activity to defend against farming - which is perfectly fine. A minority of World Republic are the same.

A very large portion of World Republic, and a sizable minority of Mujengen - are right now not practically farmable unless they go long periods of time without banking. By long periods... I mean above average. I.e. a lot of people would probably not log in for 8 or 9 hours a day while asleep and most won't get farmed. More than 10 or 11hours and they run the risk of being farmed.

Many of WR and a small portion of Mujengen however can happily go for longer than 10 or 11hours without logging in and not be farmed... due to a combination of high defences & the TOC policy.

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Let me thus summaries:

- Noone has a problem with TOC's policy protecting reasonably active players from being profitably farmed when without it they would be profitably farmed. Its there to support active players and help them grow.

- We have a serious problem when TOC's policy protests poor activity players from being profitably farmed when they can be profitably farmed.

If someone logs in maybe every 12hours or so... then yes, they should be entitled to build a decent defence and gain the benefits of protection that offers. But they shouldn't then on-top of that gain further protection from being farmed.

The way I see it... an alliance policy should aim to provide enough protection to allow most well-balanced accounts to go maybe 8 or 9 hours (at night) without banking without the fear of being farmed - or to allow them to go longer periods of time without banking if they use relaxed & overtime to fluctuate their income. Its there to provide that little bit of extra support.

An alliance policy however should not be used to provide poor activity players with protection. Provide them with protection for reasonable periods of not logging in - just like you would with a normal activity member? Yes. Provide them with protection for more extended periods? No.

If someone has poor activity... inevitably its because of themselves. If they have poor activity due to RL... then either go on vacation mode, put up with being farmed, or try and stop the farmers (whether by force or diplomacy). However RL is not the sole reason for poor activity... some player's simply won't play AW as actively because they choose to play other games/ watch TV. In such an event.... again their poor activity is because of themselves. Either way... its down to the player's choices.

If Kenzu keeps insisting on trying to protect poor activity members - then future TIE & WR relations will only continue to plummet and sooner or later will result in TIE taking a more proactive stance to combat his unjust and damaging demands.

Jiro, your ideas are very reasonable.

@ian
logging in 2 times a day is not poor activity.

our members activity is none of your business.
If you cause a lot of damage due to a farming attack, farming a player with massive defenses and make only a tiny profit, you know what will happen.

Kenzu wrote:@ian
logging in 2 times a day is not poor activity.

our members activity is none of your business.
If you cause a lot of damage due to a farming attack farming a player with massive defenses and make only small profit, you know what will happen.

& that sort of statement is exactly why The Imperium & World Republic disagree.

It IS poor activity. If your members don't want to be farmed have them use relaxed & overtime... or otherwise go on realm alert. Just don't try and threaten TIE members when those members who log in twice a day and do nothing else, get farmed by TIE.

And yes Kenzu - I know exactly what will happen.

You ll mass a TIE member and beg for Mujengen to join in (even though to be honest I think they have more in common with TIE's view on farming than they do with you). The Imperium will then declare war on World Republic ( & Mujengen IF they join in)... and your members will then rapidly find themselves defenceless and being farmed by TIE.

Need I remind you that TIE completely out-farmed T.O.C in the last war - not to mention killed a ton more? Are you really so keen for another repeat?

I increase build a proper defense to save kuwal I would lose if I changed from relaxed and overtime. I save 1 billion per day. It pays off after less than a month.

Everyone uses their own strategy and who are you to dictate to us how we should play?

Kenzu wrote:I increase build a proper defense to save kuwal I would lose if I changed from relaxed and overtime. I save 1 billion per day. It pays off after less than a month.

Everyone uses their own strategy and who are you to dictate to us how we should play?

Who are you to dictate how TIE should play? Your effectively saying a profitable hit on a poor activity WR member amounts to war. TIE's saying a profitable hit on a poor activity member is a profitable hit....

*Sighs* Ive been back literally 24 hours and look your all grazing EXACTLY where i left you MONTHS ago!

I really for the life of me cant understand why both sides are finding this so difficult. In effect your just arguing on the colour of the sky - EVERYONE knows its blue but your both declaring a different shade!

I know Ian pretty damn well, afterall ive known the guy for about 4 years. His farming policy has not changed since the beginning an ANY of the games we have played - the basic principle is that the farmer must make a substantial gain in order to justify the damage he causes.

Now we can sit and argue this "profit margin" all day BUT as farm as I'm concerned - And this is ME and NOT official TIE stance - IF you keep farming me and i work out it would be cheaper for me to mass you then to raise my defence - I WILL MASS YOU. Simple as that.

So there is your new policy right there!!! If the attacker can be removed of his strike power for a cheaper cost than that required to raise the defence of the victim then the farmer is fair game.

Your welcome

Kenzu... do you actually believe what you are saying ? of course accounts with poor activity should get farmed.

People that log in every 10-12 hours dont have a poor activity , they have no activity ! If you cant log in every 6,7,8 hours, than lower your income and you wont get attacked

Ian is right on this !