Re: Wounded/Healed units

by kingkongfan1 Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:33 pm

Manleva wrote:Well to be honest I have gone off the bed idea because as Kong says it's to much like RA and as Admin has said it needs to be simple.

the units heal slow so that you can rebuild faster after a war. It's not meant to give you a pool of fresh troops during a war or short skirmish. However in wars that last weeks or months it is of great help as it saves a substantial amount of money.

I partially get this Kenzu but Like others I think that the time to heal all wounded units is far to long.

@ Nomad - I can't see how wounded units have negatively altered or impacted rebuilding in any way since their inclusion. More the opposite because you get a pool of Healed units that cost nothing to train.

I'm pretty sure I saw someone mention AE earlier but I cannot see any relevance at all. Wounded/Healed units don't count toward your Total Population so they won't impact AE.
** I beg to differ with you on this Manleva, it is true that the "wounded" do not add to your army size, but the "healed" do, if anyone does not believe me, then do a manual count of your army size with pencil & paper, I have, & it does add to your TP, which in turn does affect ones A.E...**

I have thought of a simpler formula

Wounded Units x X% =Y
If Y is less than Z then Heal Z else Heal Y

In the above you start by using a percentage but when the percentage drops below a set value then that value is used instead to heal the remaining Wounded Units.

Alternatively it could be along the lines of
if Wounded Units are greater than x then healed units = wounded units x X%
else healed units = Y

You could even include a number of steps if necessary

**EDIT**
After posting above, I went back & added my T.P. to be positive that what I posted is absolutely correct, unfortunately the numbers were not coming out as they had previously, indicating that my above post may be inaccurate, then again it could be due to training, or a rounding issue, but most likely I am wrong in what I said above, we will find out when Admin answers Nomads post... my apologies...

by Admin Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:37 pm

About the armysize i wasn't sure what was correct so I went into the code:

WOUNDED AND HEALED do not count towards total army size and hence do NOT affect your AE in any way.

by kingkongfan1 Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:09 pm

Admin wrote:About the armysize i wasn't sure what was correct so I went into the code:

WOUNDED AND HEALED do not count towards total army size and hence do NOT affect your AE in any way.

Thank you Admin... With this info, I no longer have any issues with this subject...

by Manleva Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:02 pm

Nomad wrote:
Manleva,,

If a war ended, do you wait the 4 months suggested by ghyogad? waiting for your men to heal? I do not. I go ahead and train my def immediately to stop the farming and it stops me from having to use income controling stratagies such as critical and relaxed. That means this free "pool" of men are good only for strike. Now as Kong has shown, if you do not want a massive strike due to not needing it, only farming so wanting minimum strike, or wanting to avoid the weapons upkeep associated with bigger military forces,,,,, well they are useless to you. I mean yes you can let them sit there doing nothing if you want,, you cant sell them, you cant use them for income, and you dont/need or want them in your military.

As for not counting towards population,,,, ADMIN can you confirm this, because by the numbers on my account this is not the case. All wounded units are counted, and therefore do negatively effect your AE. I am not saying that is the case for sure, so I'm asking Admin to verify.

Admin has answered the AE question so I would recheck your army size and if there's a significant difference take the matter up with him. I keep an eye on my population and so far the largest difference has been 4 units which I put down to rounding and I have never counted wounded or healed units.

With regard to rebuilding after war I still have to ask what you consider has changed. I don't wait around for healed units so my rebuild strategy is exactly the same. If I lost say 100K Defense units previously I replaced them, now I loose 50K and have 50K wounded so I still look to replace 100K.

All that's happened is that Healed units have become a small bonus for later use and as they have no impact on your account they can just sit there until you want to use them.

by Admin Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:21 pm

I have also checked nomads population while i was at his question and even though I had to add up the numbers 4 (FOUR!) times, the sums ended up being correct (though I have no mcguffin clue why I needed to add up the numbers so many times)

by Nimras Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:47 pm

I just think most of the people here are right.

1. If this should be worth anything then all ACTIONS types should be ½ wounded. Meaning Strike, def, assassins and coverts if killed will 1 become wounded.

Plus i would like to say the healed units should be able to be trained into strike, def, assassins and spies FOR FREE not just those 2 types.

Plus for a little fee you should be able to get your healed out to be something else instead of this crap.

And last but not least why not make a change like this:

In war 4% healed a day.

Out of war 25k healed a day something.

I did the match on roughly 150k wounded units will take around 155days to heal thats TOO LONG no matter what.

Ohh and i did a calc and i get: 11.103.907 population in first run.

Recallcled saw this: Total 886 and added those giving me: 11.104.793

But according to the game: Total 886 11,104,800

So no number are correct lol anyone can tell me why?

Population Distribution
Job In Training Ready
Military Units
Attack Soldiers 0 40,356
Attack Mercenaries 0 0
Defense Soldiers 0 110,856
Defense Mercenaries 0 0
Spies 0 400,000
Assassins 0 350,000
Wounded/Healed Units 131,325 10,830
Income Units
Untrained Soldiers
(20 income per turn) 0 5,702
Idle Units
(0 income per turn) 0 0
Farmers
(50 income per turn) 0 8,696,993
Workers
(60 income per turn) 0 1,000,000
Miners
(70 income per turn) 0 500,000
Total 886 11,104,800

by seaborgium Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:54 pm

Nimras please see the guide section of TM forums.

by ghyogod Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:54 pm

Nimras has a point.

it would be fair for the sabbers and assasins to benefit of the same advantage as the striker. cause in a war some characters tend to stick to only one main strenght for the benefit of the alliance.

by Nimras Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:53 pm

seaborgium wrote:Nimras please see the guide section of TM forums.

Lol ohh please your so helpfull Wink

.

by Admin Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:46 pm

and people will not whine that someone can first train 500k spies, send them on sab missions then train half of those for free into attack soldiers?

cos that's what fights will boil down into.

the players voted almost unanimously to keep the current costs as they are

by ghyogod Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:51 pm

no admin.

when assaulting 50% go wounded. training cost of at/def 150k
when sabb/assasinating 50% * (45k/150k) go wounded. that is 15%.
could work? Smile

by Kenzu Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:02 pm

Admin wrote:and people will not whine that someone can first train 500k spies, send them on sab missions then train half of those for free into attack soldiers?

cos that's what fights will boil down into.

the players voted almost unanimously to keep the current costs as they are

obviously an update where all units can be wounded can come only if all units cost the same to train.

by ghyogod Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:06 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Admin wrote:and people will not whine that someone can first train 500k spies, send them on sab missions then train half of those for free into attack soldiers?

cos that's what fights will boil down into.

the players voted almost unanimously to keep the current costs as they are

obviously an update where all units can be wounded can come only if all units cost the same to train.

all the units could get wounded but not in the same amount.
soldiers 50%
spies and assasins 15%

15/50 = 45/150

by kingkongfan1 Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:55 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Admin wrote:About the armysize i wasn't sure what was correct so I went into the code:

WOUNDED AND HEALED do not count towards total army size and hence do NOT affect your AE in any way.

Thank you Admin... With this info, I no longer have any issues with this subject...

**EDIT**
Let me rephrase a bit, "I no longer have any issues with this subject as it stands now, start making changes, & I may change my mind,,, lol

Kenzu wrote:
obviously an update where all units can be wounded can come only if all units cost the same to train.

Are you suggesting that we increase the cost of training Spies, & Assassins?

by Admin Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:12 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
obviously an update where all units can be wounded can come only if all units cost the same to train.

Are you suggesting that we increase the cost of training Spies, & Assassins?

heäs pointing out the single most important flaw of that idea unless extra changes are made.

@ghy: so in effect making training more complicated because with those numbers you would NEVER want to waste your free training of healed units onto training spies/assassins if you can get them at a third of the cost to normal units

by ghyogod Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:36 am

@ghy: so in effect making training more complicated because with those numbers you would NEVER want to waste your free training of healed units onto training spies/assassins if you can get them at a third of the cost to normal units

this one slipped my mind. Very Happy

then split them in two cathegories> agents and soldiers.
healed soldiers are retrained as soldiers and healed agents are retrained as spies/assasins.

by Admin Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:51 am

well there's one last thing to consider:

assassins = no big deal, half your assassins get wounded, half enemy units killed get wounded
spies = half your spies get wounded, half enemy weapons destroyed get ???

or we leave spies out of the equation

by seaborgium Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:00 am

if we are going to get into all wounded then whats the point? Just set the losses to half what they are now and call it a day

by Nomad Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:38 am

seaborgium wrote:if we are going to get into all wounded then whats the point? Just set the losses to half what they are now and call it a day

A-Men.

I still dont see the point in the update to begin with. It does not do what it was made for and is therefore useless.

I would rather have my WE and be able to hurt someone and be hurt by someone.

Since they do not effect AE I am not as much against them, but still find them useless all save 1 thing, and that speed training for att/def Long After the fact.

Atleast give us 1/2 our WE back you took from us.

by Manleva Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:35 am

Nomad wrote:Atleast give us 1/2 our WE back you took from us.

The fairer option would have been to have wounded units earn the existing WE and increased WE on units that were killed.

As it is now new players are receiving less WE than existing players have already earned. If WE had been increased on Killed units but left the same on wounded units then everyone would be on an equal footing.

by Nimras Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:25 am

Well Admin what i was after was more.

If i farm someone with def then i wanted half of my men to be wounded as half of his become wounded.

Basicly all missions where def and strike units gets killed should be 50/50 instead of not its only what 1 mission type where your units gets wounded.

If this wounded/healed should work then at least make it so all missions where you can loose strike or def units half become wounded.

That at least more fair i do not mind spies and Assassins will not become wounded units when killed. But with the wounded units on strike and def units should be fair to all by making all missions where they can die are included.

And then make it so for a fee lets say half of the strike/def units price can you train your healed units into Untrained Soldiers, Because with the current % of how fast they are healed thats more usefull to well everyone that only being able to train them into strike/def units.

The Wouneded/healed units are simply not that usefull. Not to me with the so LOOOOONG and slow process they are being healed means when the healed units finally is usefull to me then its to late because then i have used alot of Kuwal to untrain famers, train them into def and strike, simply because the numbers i need are bigger than what i will be even close to have in healed units looong after the war ended.

Already now here in 1 month time when i need to up my def and strike will i not even ahve enough healed units to handle 10% of what i need and i do not need alot of units.

And i also find it very unusefull that as i said earlier its only 1 damn mission that gets you wouneded units.

So to sum it up.

1. All misions where strike and def units can die should be missions where half of them become wounded. (This include Farming and Rading among others)
2. Let you move healed units over to Untrained Soldiers for a fee, but training them into strike or def units are still free.
3. If you do not want to do 2, then UP the damn healing process or make something like weapon facility and training facility where we can up how much units are healed per turn to like what ever we want 10k what ever so they are usefull. (Now they are worthless because when they finally has healed enough to be used again the war would be over and your over 100 days later)

by Kenzu Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:47 am

Nimras wrote:Well Admin what i was after was more.

If i farm someone with def then i wanted half of my men to be wounded as half of his become wounded.

Basicly all missions where def and strike units gets killed should be 50/50 instead of not its only what 1 mission type where your units gets wounded.

If this wounded/healed should work then at least make it so all missions where you can loose strike or def units half become wounded.

That at least more fair i do not mind spies and Assassins will not become wounded units when killed. But with the wounded units on strike and def units should be fair to all by making all missions where they can die are included.

And then make it so for a fee lets say half of the strike/def units price can you train your healed units into Untrained Soldiers, Because with the current % of how fast they are healed thats more usefull to well everyone that only being able to train them into strike/def units.

The Wouneded/healed units are simply not that usefull. Not to me with the so LOOOOONG and slow process they are being healed means when the healed units finally is usefull to me then its to late because then i have used alot of Kuwal to untrain famers, train them into def and strike, simply because the numbers i need are bigger than what i will be even close to have in healed units looong after the war ended.

Already now here in 1 month time when i need to up my def and strike will i not even ahve enough healed units to handle 10% of what i need and i do not need alot of units.

And i also find it very unusefull that as i said earlier its only 1 damn mission that gets you wouneded units.

So to sum it up.

1. All misions where strike and def units can die should be missions where half of them become wounded. (This include Farming and Rading among others)
This can be done only if losses in farming and raiding are adjusted (increasing losses on both sides) so that they are same or similar to what they were before, otherwise people will have to almost double their defenses to keep their efficiency.
2. Let you move healed units over to Untrained Soldiers for a fee, but training them into strike or def units are still free.
If healed can be made untrained, then it should be free to do so. Second question is, why should it be allowed? Except one wants to sell his account. I see abuse potential here. Namely a player who doesnt want to play will mass someone he doesnt like so that he can convert his military into uu and then sell them. Not a good idea.
3. If you do not want to do 2, then UP the damn healing process or make something like weapon facility and training facility where we can up how much units are healed per turn to like what ever we want 10k what ever so they are usefull. (Now they are worthless because when they finally has healed enough to be used again the war would be over and your over 100 days later)
Good idea. There could be some building, for example hospital, which can allow you to research faster healing for example up to 10% per day if you research it in research center 2. I dont think healing should be upgraded by absolute numbers though.

by Nomad Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:44 am

Manleva wrote:
Nomad wrote:Atleast give us 1/2 our WE back you took from us.

The fairer option would have been to have wounded units earn the existing WE and increased WE on units that were killed.

As it is now new players are receiving less WE than existing players have already earned. If WE had been increased on Killed units but left the same on wounded units then everyone would be on an equal footing.

Totally agree. This makes a massive difference in new alliance that should arrise in time since they will be handicapped when trying to climb the alliance ranks.

@ Nimras,,,

Its 2 missions, assault and destruction.

Kenzu wrote:

Good idea. There could be some building, for example hospital, which can allow you to research faster healing for example up to 10% per day if you research it in research center 2. I dont think healing should be upgraded by absolute numbers though.
I agree it should be % based, and not absolute numbers

by Nimras Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:16 pm

Nomad wrote:@ Nimras,,,

Its 2 missions, assault and destruction.

1. Steal Kuwal (Farm)
2. Steal Untrained (Raid)
3. Assault
4. Hunt Assassins
5. Invasion
6. Destruction

6 Missions that all cost your strike units life and your def units life. 6 missions and out of them only 2 are you getting wounded units.

It should be all 6 no question asked.

1. Steal Kuwal (Farm): Hitter gets 2% losses, defender gets 0.25% losses. That means hitter get 1% of losses are wounded and defender get 0,125% are wounded
2. Steal Untrained (Raid): Here i do not know the loose ratio.
3. Assault: Hitter gets 5% losses, defender gets 4% losses. That means hitter get 2,5% of losses are wounded and defender get 2% are wounded
4. Hunt Assassins: Here i do not know the loose ratio.
5. Invasion: Here i do not know the loose ratio.
6. Destruction: Here i do not know the loose ratio.

But i mean it still surfice to add it.

Kenzu wrote:
Nimras wrote:1. All misions where strike and def units can die should be missions where half of them become wounded. (This include Farming and Rading among others)

This can be done only if losses in farming and raiding are adjusted (increasing losses on both sides) so that they are same or similar to what they were before, otherwise people will have to almost double their defenses to keep their efficiency.

lol m8 how you comming with this figure? if losses on strike and def are the same now and i farm someone and losses lets say 5k units the one i attack losses 2k units. Then i get 2.5k wounded he 1k wounded i see no problem in that. The way losses are now is fine but to make this wounded/healed worth it and something worth playing it should count for all missions where you can loose strike and def units

And as i wrote to Nomad:

1. Steal Kuwal (Farm)
2. Steal Untrained (Raid)
3. Assault
4. Hunt Assassins
5. Invasion
6. Destruction

6 Missions that all cost your strike units life and your def units life. 6 missions and out of them only 2 are you getting wounded units.

It should be all 6 no question asked.

1. Steal Kuwal (Farm): Hitter gets 2% losses, defender gets 0.25% losses. That means hitter get 1% of losses are wounded and defender get 0,125% are wounded
2. Steal Untrained (Raid): Here i do not know the loose ratio.
3. Assault: Hitter gets 5% losses, defender gets 4% losses. That means hitter get 2,5% of losses are wounded and defender get 2% are wounded
4. Hunt Assassins: Here i do not know the loose ratio.
5. Invasion: Here i do not know the loose ratio.
6. Destruction: Here i do not know the loose ratio.

Based on this do i not SEE anyreason that it can't be added that all 6 missions type half of the strike and def units become wounded. And i still don't get why you want loss ratio to increase to make it so jesus.

2. Let you move healed units over to Untrained Soldiers for a fee, but training them into strike or def units are still free.

If healed can be made untrained, then it should be free to do so. Second question is, why should it be allowed? Except one wants to sell his account. I see abuse potential here. Namely a player who doesnt want to play will mass someone he doesnt like so that he can convert his military into uu and then sell them. Not a good idea.

M8 you can already UNTRAIN your soldiers so where do you get this bad idea: "Namely a player who doesnt want to play will mass someone he doesnt like so that he can convert his military into uu and then sell them. Not a good idea." The fact that i can untrain my strike, def, assassins, spies, farmers, ilde units, workers and miners at any time then i see no problem in making it that if you pay then all your HEALED and i said HEALED units where able to become Untrained Units for a FEE maybe same price as what it cost to untrain strike and def units or up the cost for both. And i see no reason for it to be free and it should be allowed because the rate they heal now makes healed unitrs pretty USELESS i have a new def and strike after a war so fast to keep my income and when i finally have enough healed units to put them to use in my strike and def then its TO LATE. 155 days for 150k units thats way to long.

3. If you do not want to do 2, then UP the damn healing process or make something like weapon facility and training facility where we can up how much units are healed per turn to like what ever we want 10k what ever so they are usefull. (Now they are worthless because when they finally has healed enough to be used again the war would be over and your over 100 days later)

Good idea. There could be some building, for example hospital, which can allow you to research faster healing for example up to 10% per day if you research it in research center 2. I dont think healing should be upgraded by absolute numbers though.

I never said it should be numbers i just gave a examble, i just want something where if i had 100k units should i not waite 100days to get them all out.

by Admin Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:14 pm

1) Everyone cut the fantasies about getting only half the WE. Sure, assault and destruction account for a significant portion of war damages. It would be 50% if weapons would also get recovered, they dont. Atm it's 20-35% less if you only count assault and destruction. Around 10-20% if you count everything.

2) as to my reasoning for the existance of wounded units, imagining we just halve the losses and remove wounded is not the same. Because the attacked person has clearly more units left after having been attacked however considering all the other losses suffered it would be extreme reality warp trying to call it "causing no damage" (see point 1)

3) I'll run through the logs as far as it's possible to add up wounded units since the update and start logging them into a separate column (because as mentioned, I like to keep track of global population and mixing dead with non dead units would make a mess). I have no issues with giving wounded units the full WE value, and apparently that's what people want.

4) people voted decisively against having wounded in farming missions. I mean sure, to keep consistency across the line as much as possible I could add it, but I will at the same time increase total losses slightly so that in the end farming costs remain the same.
There is absolutely no reason to change farming costs up or down because it will achieve NOTHING. People will not farm more, people will not make bigger profits, all that will change is the amount of defense people will build for each 1 bil kuwal they want to hold safely.
At the end of the day you will always pay X kuwal in losses to gain Y kuwal in profits by farming others.

5) hunt, invade could have wounded but since that would reduce costs one sidedly in favor of the attacker there should be some mechanism to allow the defender to offset this, such as enabling combat strategies to affect losses as they do in assault missions (keep in mind that the losses that get affected are always only the soldiers, miners/workers/assassins would remain unaffected by both strategies and wounding)

6) speed of healing will get raised, one way or another.
I would aim to get 75% of wounded units to get healed within 10 days (After 20 days you will have healed 94% of your wounded units)

Currently one will heal 33% of wounded units every 10 days
To reach that you need to heal 0.29% of wounded each TURN (which is a 13% per day heal rate in 48 installments compared to the current 4%)
That with addition of possible options to temporarily increase healing rate at some form of cost

by Sponsored content