Re: Free Turns

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:27 pm

seaborgium wrote:the TC prices won't fall, since admin made them drop, they haven't gone up or down since then.
The only thing I have seen flux is the amount you get from teh BM.

If you buy turns, the AT price will be increase a little bit
If you sell turns, the AT price will decrease.

The admin didn't do anything with the trade center, the player actions influence the prices, however now that there are much more turns, the AT prices will either drop, or, the fast increase in prices will be halted for a long time.

But we should concern less about the price, because it's only a number, we should care more about the values.
Admins update lowered the value of AT, by increasing the amount of AT that are dumped on AW each day.

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:10 pm

You mean people actually sell AT on TC?

Why?

Are they stupid?

Why on earth would anyone do something as stupid as that is what I do not understand. It is a complete waste, and proves my point that the GM should be open to all.

And yes Kenzu, Admin did alter the TC. If you take a minute to remember it will come to you.

by Lord Ishurue Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:22 pm

Insults are not allowed that's lame .

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:41 pm

Nomad wrote:You mean people actually sell AT on TC?

Why?

Are they stupid?

Why on earth would anyone do something as stupid as that is what I do not understand. It is a complete waste, and proves my point that the GM should be open to all.

And yes Kenzu, Admin did alter the TC. If you take a minute to remember it will come to you.

When?

Now that the update came, it obviously is stupid to sell AT in the trade center, before it wasn't stupid (especially for those people who are too busy to farm)

Without the update, people would sell AT in the trade center if they believe that the additional profit they make by farming themselves, is worth the time to farm.
In a good functioning economy the trade center AT price will get close, and still remain below the price that you can achieve by farming yourself.
However admin is not happy with that.
He doesn't want that there is a balance between people who buy and sell AT in the trade center.
He doesn't want that the price difference between TC buy price of AT and the farm return is as it is now.
He wants to magically increase the difference by increasing the number of AT people produce, which obviously won't work.

If someone can farm 300-400 million easily, then I believe the fair price for buying AT should lie close to 300 milion. Right now it's about 270 million to buy 10 AT, and 250 million to sell 10 AT on average.

Of course making it possible that MT will be used for free AT, is a stab into the heart of Trade Center.
Trade Center was primarily meant to be used for trading, and now we have what? People will get free AT instead.

How many people are going to buy AT from the trade center now? Less than before
And how many people are going to sell AT to the trade center now? Much less than before

by Lord Ishurue Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:27 am

Who say's people are going to use MTs/ MRs for ATs ?

You have 31 Market Reserves at your disposal
You have 7.57 Market Trades at your disposal

I would like to have 100 MRs . at least 30 at all times .

My opinion on them is MRs are very valuable during wars. if you can not use a 24 hour PPT or 48 hour , you can still stack a few 4 hour PPTs to safely rebuild your offensive power .

if you buy ATs for 300mil and farm for 400mil that is still a shitty profit. . when you farm your suppose to make a good profit. 2/1 profit. cost of ATs 200mil you farm for 400mil+ .

If you guys want to be active farming, raise the income of UUs & income units by 100% . make AE start at 150%.

The server will be full of 0 def inactive farms .

If a player uses their MRs for ATs , during a war they will not be able to use PPT .

Their are Pros & Cons to this.

This update was one I think Kingofshinobis & I posted before. about trading MRs for STs . I think someone suggested MRs for ATs but not sure.

by Admin Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:56 am

Lord Ishurue wrote:If you guys want to be active farming, raise the income of UUs & income units by 100% . make AE start at 150%.

The server will be full of 0 def inactive farms.

And the point of totally devaluating kuwal and units all of a sudden?

by Manleva Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:30 am

I've read all of the comments made by both sides of the debate so far but have to admit that neither side has convinced me that they are right.

I will admit that I am used to a game where AT were severely limited, you received 1 per Turn and could get an additional 7 per day from voting which meant a sum total of 55 per day. On top of that AT were caped at 999.

The game was also a reset game so AT usage was important. Farming was required so that you could grow but this had to be balanced by amassing and maintaining AT for the inevitable end of round wars.

Adding to the 999 cap was the fact that the longer you sat on 999 AT the more your income dropped per turn.

I don't mind getting the extra AT's but if they only increase the activity between Active players and Zero Defense inactives then from my point of view it's worthless to the game it's self.

If however there is increased activity between active players (doubtful at this time) then there is a benefit to everyone.

by Kenzu Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:00 am

Lord Ishurue wrote:

if you buy ATs for 300mil and farm for 400mil that is still a shitty profit. . when you farm your suppose to make a good profit. 2/1 profit. cost of ATs 200mil you farm for 400mil+ .

This implies that the people selling them should get only half of what they could farm themselves.
That's not a reasonable price, and most people will not sell it at such price.

btw, if buying at 300 and getting 400 is a shitty profit, then sell your turns. I will buy your turns at this price gladly (if I can't find anyone to sell it to me for 200 million, which I can still find quite easily)

Manleva wrote:I've read all of the comments made by both sides of the debate so far but have to admit that neither side has convinced me that they are right.

I will admit that I am used to a game where AT were severely limited, you received 1 per Turn and could get an additional 7 per day from voting which meant a sum total of 55 per day. On top of that AT were caped at 999.

The game was also a reset game so AT usage was important. Farming was required so that you could grow but this had to be balanced by amassing and maintaining AT for the inevitable end of round wars.

Adding to the 999 cap was the fact that the longer you sat on 999 AT the more your income dropped per turn.

I don't mind getting the extra AT's but if they only increase the activity between Active players and Zero Defense inactives then from my point of view it's worthless to the game it's self.

If however there is increased activity between active players (doubtful at this time) then there is a benefit to everyone.

I completely agree with your point!

by Admin Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:56 am

Manleva wrote:I don't mind getting the extra AT's but if they only increase the activity between Active players and Zero Defense inactives then from my point of view it's worthless to the game it's self.

If however there is increased activity between active players (doubtful at this time) then there is a benefit to everyone.

so a fun idea would be that if you attack someone with a defense of above 0 you dont pay the AT cost if you win (your attack is higher than enemy def, or we could go proportionately, so if your strike is half and you used 10 at's then you only pay 5 at's)

Explanation =>
Inactives are considered abandoned accounts, what you steal there is scraping flesh from the bones
Attacking active accounts which still have a defense means there's some infrastructure left standing, so if you already have invaded their realm and are pillaging their warehouses, you might aswell load up on some of their fuel or ammunition.

On another note, kenzu raised a point in a discussion with me which he hasn't posted on the forum I think, however which actually is valid and probably better than what most people write for or against.
One can get 400 attack turns per week in probably about 30 seconds (convert market turns to market reserves and then get turns). Voting, while giving around the same value in a 7 day period, requires at least 10 minutes of work. (saying one is flooding the market with turns is as wrong as saying there's hardly any turns available, if the active people would vote regularly then a significant portion of their AT needs would be covered, again worries about not seeing codes or being afraid of getting punished are beyond me and will not be taken as an argument because any decent semi-up-to-date browser will have the voting links work properly)
However I'd rather see people go on protection, and get their turns by voting, hence I'll be revisiting this time/benefit issue

by Nomad Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:27 am

Admin wrote:
Manleva wrote:I don't mind getting the extra AT's but if they only increase the activity between Active players and Zero Defense inactives then from my point of view it's worthless to the game it's self.

If however there is increased activity between active players (doubtful at this time) then there is a benefit to everyone.
so a fun idea would be that if you attack someone with a defense of above 0 you dont pay the AT cost if you win (your attack is higher than enemy def, or we could go proportionately, so if your strike is half and you used 10 at's then you only pay 5 at's)

Explanation =>
Inactives are considered abandoned accounts, what you steal there is scraping flesh from the bones
Attacking active accounts which still have a defense means there's some infrastructure left standing, so if you already have invaded their realm and are pillaging their warehouses, you might aswell load up on some of their fuel or ammunition.

On another note, kenzu raised a point in a discussion with me which he hasn't posted on the forum I think, however which actually is valid and probably better than what most people write for or against.
One can get 400 attack turns per week in probably about 30 seconds (convert market turns to market reserves and then get turns). Voting, while giving around the same value in a 7 day period, requires at least 10 minutes of work. (saying one is flooding the market with turns is as wrong as saying there's hardly any turns available, if the active people would vote regularly then a significant portion of their AT needs would be covered, again worries about not seeing codes or being afraid of getting punished are beyond me and will not be taken as an argument because any decent semi-up-to-date browser will have the voting links work properly)
However I'd rather see people go on protection, and get their turns by voting, hence I'll be revisiting this time/benefit issue

Interesting Idea, the first part

As for the last, you totally lost me. You say Kenzu raised a valid point but it seems I have competely missed it. I assume it had something to do with voting?

I would still like an explination as to why you think someone will spend more time voting, then they spend actually playing the game? You also act like voting is something people are expected to do, but why? Why would you spend more time voting then you spend playing a game? I mean just me personally, when I spend 1 or more hours in the game, then I might spend 10 minutes voting, but when I spend 5 minutes ingame, there is no way I'm going to spend 10 minutes voting.

Couple that with the fact you can/have to vote multiple times a day. Someone playing all 3 servers/games (main, Reset, AW2, and the possible 2 or 3 other games floating around) and spending 20 to 30 minutes voting when you could be playing? It just makes no sense to me personally. Yeah its great for new players, but older players, and those who bring others here by word of mouth, well the incentive is not as appealing when accompanied with the threats. (I am actually very glad you are strict on the voting/punishment thing BTW, dont take that the wrong way)

As for the bugs.explorer/voting thing,,,, Well you were the one threatening people, and could not accept people were getting paid without voting, them telling you upfront, and you arguing them down while threatening to bann people for doing it. So really, you wonder why some don't bother? Truely the voting links themselves should be designed better as well, it should tell you if you voted or not and if it was counted, but I assume you have no control over that.

by seaborgium Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:48 am

I can vote in less then 5 mins. But it turns out I can't at work grr stupid GSA

by Admin Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:03 am

Nomad wrote:As for the bugs.explorer/voting thing,,,, Well you were the one threatening people, and could not accept people were getting paid without voting, them telling you upfront, and you arguing them down while threatening to bann people for doing it. So really, you wonder why some don't bother? Truely the voting links themselves should be designed better as well, it should tell you if you voted or not and if it was counted, but I assume you have no control over that.

I always said no one would get a ban unless they got contacted ingame personally at least once.
So yes I do wonder why some dont bother.

some sites i dont get a list of who voted so i cant check manually. others I can check manually and some send a return packet for a later automatic check if required
If all would work that bonus only gets added if code is entered it would be easier for all of us.

by Manleva Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:32 am

Admin wrote:
Manleva wrote:I don't mind getting the extra AT's but if they only increase the activity between Active players and Zero Defense inactives then from my point of view it's worthless to the game it's self.

If however there is increased activity between active players (doubtful at this time) then there is a benefit to everyone.
so a fun idea would be that if you attack someone with a defense of above 0 you dont pay the AT cost if you win (your attack is higher than enemy def, or we could go proportionately, so if your strike is half and you used 10 at's then you only pay 5 at's)

From my point of view AT costs themselves do not enter into the equation other than the amount of resources taken when farming or raiding could be proportional to the number of AT used. Of more interest to me would be altering the amount of units lost in farming and raiding actions so that there is more opportunity to make a profit when farming or raiding active players.

Reducing AT and ST costs or over increasing their availability has a major drawback because their supply is one of the limiting factors in actions between players and provides a form of protection.

Explanation =>
Inactives are considered abandoned accounts, what you steal there is scraping flesh from the bones
Attacking active accounts which still have a defense means there's some infrastructure left standing, so if you already have invaded their realm and are pillaging their warehouses, you might aswell load up on some of their fuel or ammunition.

On another note, kenzu raised a point in a discussion with me which he hasn't posted on the forum I think, however which actually is valid and probably better than what most people write for or against.
One can get 400 attack turns per week in probably about 30 seconds (convert market turns to market reserves and then get turns). Voting, while giving around the same value in a 7 day period, requires at least 10 minutes of work. (saying one is flooding the market with turns is as wrong as saying there's hardly any turns available, if the active people would vote regularly then a significant portion of their AT needs would be covered, again worries about not seeing codes or being afraid of getting punished are beyond me and will not be taken as an argument because any decent semi-up-to-date browser will have the voting links work properly)
However I'd rather see people go on protection, and get their turns by voting, hence I'll be revisiting this time/benefit issue

I vote everyday if possible and have no worries about seeing codes etc. I have noted that for some reason some of the sites do not always provide the code page and one site does not give a second chance if you get the code wrong but I always enter the codes if the site presents the page. I vote because I consider it as a way of providing some support to the game that costs me nothing more than a bit of time.

For those who have issues on the amount of time required try this - Use a browser that has tabs and open every link in the first section in a new tab (only one has a time limit so open this last then enter the code and vote). You can then go to each tab in turn, enter the code and click the vote button. Once you have done this for each tab you can then go back through the tabs, check the code was accepted and close the tab. Then follow the same process for the second section. This means that you are not waiting for pages to load and speeds up the voting process,

by Nomad Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:18 pm

Manleva wrote:
For those who have issues on the amount of time required try this - Use a browser that has tabs and open every link in the first section in a new tab (only one has a time limit so open this last then enter the code and vote). You can then go to each tab in turn, enter the code and click the vote button. Once you have done this for each tab you can then go back through the tabs, check the code was accepted and close the tab. Then follow the same process for the second section. This means that you are not waiting for pages to load and speeds up the voting process

Been nice if you had named this "timed" site.

And I still think you are missing the ultimate point I am trying to make.

If the game mechanics are set up so only 5 minutes, or 10 minutes a day is needed to compete, then why do you think a person would spent either Twice as much time voting as playing, or the same amount of time voting as playing?

by Admin Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:22 pm

reducing losses wouldn't help anything since all it would result in is that people would raise their defenses

now you can hold 3-5 bil kuwal with a 5 bil def, reducing losses to half means people will just double the defs, and we'll be right where we started

there would have to be some added benefit for the attacker which doesn't necessarily cause the defender to lose something. (i.e. attacking active players with farm missions will create a reputation of your realm that "no one messes with us" sligthly boosting recruits into your realm [total up] for some time for each attack you make)

@ nomad:
the timed one is on the second row , third column. refreshing the page after the time expires won't allow you to vote but clicking the vote button from the vote page will allow you to vote.

by Nomad Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:51 pm

Admin wrote:reducing losses wouldn't help anything since all it would result in is that people would raise their defenses

now you can hold 3-5 bil kuwal with a 5 bil def, reducing losses to half means people will just double the defs, and we'll be right where we started

there would have to be some added benefit for the attacker which doesn't necessarily cause the defender to lose something. (i.e. attacking active players with farm missions will create a reputation of your realm that "no one messes with us" sligthly boosting recruits into your realm [total up] for some time for each attack you make)

@ nomad:
the timed one is on the second row , third column. refreshing the page after the time expires won't allow you to vote but clicking the vote button from the vote page will allow you to vote.

TY admin.

Interesting idea, but there is one problem. How will you balance that for the defensive players, or for those who trade? whos more active? a defensive player who logs in 10 times a day to bank, a trader who makes 10 legitamate trades a day, or a farmer who logs in 1 time and farms ten times?

Then why is the farmer the only one getting a bonus?

by Nomad Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:55 pm

sorry for the double post but this is a different thought.

Guys, admin can not create a game mechanic to overcome the "human" element. It is Impossible. If people do not want to farm, or do not find the profit over cost in doing so, there is Nothing anyone can do.

You can make it so you Gain men and kewal per hit and people will simply find a way to counter it. Its human nature.

The most damaging thing right now to this game could possibly be our very own self imposed farming regulations. Its not up to admin to fix that. Its up to the playerbase to fix it.

by seaborgium Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:25 pm

How do you propose to remove that?

by Nomad Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:33 pm

I don't.

1 man can't.

it will take the playerbase as a whole.

by seaborgium Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:53 pm

you maybe right, or it could take 1 alliance, or 2. But the ideas need to be put forward.

by curumo Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:20 am

I'm listening, and so is TIE (I'm sure). What you have in mind Nomad?

by Nomad Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:36 am

Thats just it guys, I don't have the answer, but I do know its not Admins problem, its ours as players.

The only way to make it more appealing to attack people is to hard capp growth so once you hit the cap you will fight with no fear of being left behind.

The problem with that is, more then likely many will quit.

There is no silver bullet. If I had it I would have already given it to Admin.

But I know beyond the shadow of a doubt, this is a "human" problem, not one that can be fixed with code. It can be altered or guided with code, but not fixed. As long as we as players find ways to make fighting not profitable, and shy away from it when the oppurtunity arises, then there is nothing Admin can do to make us fight that wont cause as many to quit as who like the new state.

JMO

by seaborgium Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:42 am

Nomad what do you think that dropping all farm policies would do?

by Nomad Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:12 am

long term, IDK

short term, lead to
a. a massive build up
b. lead to war

I think ultimately it wont change a whole lot. Even if it goes back to "1 kewal gained over what you lost is profit" people will adapt to that with massive defenses and lowered incomes.

So really, IDK.

Anyone else want to take a stabb at it?

by seaborgium Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:21 am

a group should get a few more friends and turn into DDE.
"We take what we want and mass you if you look at us"

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