Free Turns

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:23 pm

Hello everyone, I'd like to address the free turns update, which allows people to get +500 Attack Turns for free without effort.
Here are the reasons why I am against this update:

No updates should be made if majority is against them. Let people decide
We had surveys on other things, but this update gets done after a guy suggests it, without proper forum discussion, without asking what AW players think about it. I say people should see both viewpoints, why it should be made, and also why it shouldnt be made, and then vote if they want it or not, just like in previous surveys.

This update rewards laziness
This update rewards laziness, as people who are too lazy to farm and even people who log in once a week, can benefit a lot from this update, because all they need to do is once a week change all 16 MT to 4 MR, and change 4 MR to 4*125 AT (500 AT), which they can easily sell on galactic market for 15.000.000.000 kuwal. Also, new players can grow extremely fast, if they get additional 15 billion each week, and reaching 10.000 unit production will not come with the feeling of accomplishment anymore.

There is less incentive to use the trade center
Trade center was made to enable people to trade, with this update, much less people will be trading there than before. Already before people complained that AT are too expensive (and thus farming margins too low), and before they couldnt get free AT with MT. Now they can, and thus less people will use trade center to trade. people who have SS will never sell AT on the trade center anymore, instead they can sell them for the same price on GM, and use all MT to get AT. Selling AT at the trade center would be a big mistake, which means that AT price on market center will not fall with the supply of demand, and AT on market center will be slightly overpriced.

There is less incentive to vote for Aderan Wars
Since players can get +500 free AT each week, in addition to 336 AT they always received. They now produce AT at the speed of 249%. Voting gives 54 AT per day. If before it could double the number of AT you get, now it increases your AT production only by 50%. Obviously less people will vote now. (Arguing that with market people can get more AT is bullshit, because these AT are expensive and not everyone can afford them, AND those who don't want to farm, will get free AT anyway to sell them to others, which will obviously decrease the value of AT in the near future.)

Calculation, AT per week:
regular AT: 48*7=336
free AT: 16/4*125=500

There will be less new players joining
As less people vote, AW will drop in ranks and less people will register on Aderan Wars.
Thank you for this sabotage!

Attack Turns lose value
If before AT were rising at an average rate of 2% per day, the price of AT will halt for a long time, or even fall sharply as soon as players realise that there are simply too many AT out there to farm for the same profit.
People will have to farm for less, and attack turns will fall in price, profit margins per hit will fall too. People who worked hard to get many AT, will lose a lot of value. Doubling the number of AT serverwide will decrease AT prices by 50% to reach market equilibrium. Considering the price rigidity, it might take 2 or 3 weeks until the price stabilises, and of course inflation will counteract the price fall of AT. The value of AT will fall much more than the price of AT.

There will be less incentive to farm
In the near future, when prices stabilise, the profits will be lower than now. If now someone has 50 million profit per hit, and each 3 months the profit doubles, after 3 months he wants 100 million profit, because future kuwal is worth less than present kuwal, but if in 3 months he will still earn 50 million, he will be upset, and some farmers will stop farming.

There will be less people donating
Since 1$ gets you 300 AT, and now people will get more AT per person, there will be less incentive to donate.

Even less new players due to less advertising
Since there will be less donations, there will be less advertising for aderan wars, and thus less new players joining.

--------------

Additionaly a couple words: People wanted more AT, and their wish has been granted already long time ago, now people can double their production if they take the 5 minutes to vote each day. It isn't a good idea to destroy the value of AT even more. Considering it is only a minority of players who vote each day, most people don't seem to care much about getting more AT anyway. Of course, no one will be against getting more AT, if they don't think about the backlash that it produces.

Equally a government could ask its citizens. Do you want the government to start printing money and pay out 1000$ to each person each month? I guess the majority would vote for such change. And it might work well for a couple days, but 2 times more money doesn't equal two times more goods, and all it would lead to is a devaluation of the dollar. After 1 month, people would simply have to pay 2 times more $ to buy anything, and they would have to pay 2 times more $ to import anything.

Of course, even though it would be a stupid decision people would make, I believe it should be the people who decide, and not simply the government start printing money like crazy without asking anyone.

I have exposed admin for the little spineless weasel which he is, too weak to resist the pressure of a couple guys and making updates which defy logic, without even asking people if they want it!

@admin
You don't see very far down the road do you?
Your update increases the number of attack turns players have. More attack turns will decrease their value. It's basic economics. Get that through your head you damn fool.

btw: admin doesn't think what I said to him to be offensive.

by Manleva Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:43 pm

Interesting, very interesting, you have raised some issues here that I had not really considered.

Some of your points i can agree with and others I will disagree with. I can see some additional mechanisms that could be added that could offset some of the issues you have raised but they would also cause other issues.

I think some more on your comments before offering more detailed comments. Although you have surprised me somewhat because for once I find that I completely understand your entire post.

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:55 pm

Hey if people want more turns, then I could accept a reasonable and gradual increase, maybe by +1% per day, so that it takes 100 days to double AT production.

Also, we already have a possibility to increase AT production by voting. I think the voting bonuses could be increased by 0.5 AT per vote per month, from 3 to 6 AT per vote. After 6 months, total AT production for voting players would increase by 50%

Shocks are never good for the economy, but gradual changes are easier for economies to digest.

by Admin Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:09 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Calculation, AT per week:
regular AT: 48*7=336
free AT: 16/4*125=500

Calculation, AT per week:
regular AT: 96*7=672
voting AT: 18*3*7=378

Market:
buy AT: 16*145=2320
free AT: 16/4*100=400

Path 1: 3370
Path 2: 1450

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:17 pm

Before update:

regular AT: 48*1*7=336
voting: 18*3*7=378

336 AT for people who don't vote (90% of all players)
714 AT for people who vote (10% of all players)

AVERAGE: 407.4 per player

AFTER UPDATE
update doubles AT production per day +336
update allows free AT through MT 16/4*125= +500

AT production on all Aderan Wars has increased
FROM
407.4 per player
TO
1243 per player

I was unaware that another update has been done, namely doubling regular AT production.
This means the problem is even more serious. Now there are AT are produced at the speed of 300% for the same amount of farms.
Thanks for destroying the game.

You don't need to be a genius to realize that it will bring the AT-UU-Kuwal prices out of balance. And the value of AT will fall a lot.

Admin thinks the AT prices are overpriced, but they aren't. Right now they are in balance. Same number of AT get sold to the trade center as they are bought. The only reason why AT prices increase is because there is a hyperinflation of kuwal and uu. The kuwal and uu that inactives produce increases quite fast, because there are more inactives, and because people who quit now, are much bigger than people who quit half a year ago.

One month ago I farmed for 200 million kuwal and raided roughly 1500-200 uu.
Now I farm 300-400 million with ease, and raid 2000-2500 uu easily.
(I farm more by judging the numbers, but the farmed value is the same, because populations and incomes increased in 1 month)

AT prices are just fine. They are in balance, because half people sell them, and half the people buy them. And that's how it should be.

AT prices are too high only for people who either don't have time or unwilling to farm for such profit margins, or simply don't know how to farm profitably. They should sell their turns to people who can make enough profits. That's how it should be. But they are ok for people who buy them on the trade center.

It's wrong to be intervening in market prices and try to change AT prices artificially by dumping them on AW.

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:24 pm

Again, I'll throw my 2 cents worth in, you can ignore it at will.

Kenzu wrote:Hello everyone, I'd like to address the free turns update, which allows people to get +~~500~~ 400Attack Turns for free without effort.
Here are the reasons why I am against this update:

No updates should be made if majority is against them. Let people decide
We had surveys on other things, but this update gets done after a guy suggests it, without proper forum discussion, without asking what AW players think about it. I say people should see both viewpoints, why it should be made, and also why it shouldnt be made, and then vote if they want it or not, just like in previous surveys.
I do actually agree with this statement up to a point. I do think an Admin has complete control and at time has to act outside the will of the playerbase, but the jest of what Kenzu is saying here I do believe in.

This update rewards laziness
This update rewards laziness, as people who are too lazy to farm and even people who log in once a week, can benefit a lot from this update, because all they need to do is once a week change all 16 MT to 4 MR, and change 4 MR to 4*125 AT (500 AT), which they can easily sell on galactic market for 15.000.000.000 kuwal. Also, new players can grow extremely fast, if they get additional 15 billion each week, and reaching 10.000 unit production will not come with the feeling of accomplishment anymore.
I disagree. Giving people the chance to do MORE actions, and to spend MORE time in the game is NOT rewarding laziness. Its rewarding a time commitment, and activity. You look at it from your view point alone and refuse to acknowledge anyone elses. This is a great thing for those who are newer and trying desperately to catch up or compete. The PTR has crippled 99% of the accounts in this game to the point you can and will NEVER catch up to the biggest and best, and I don't mean in size, I mean just being able to compete. AT actually being sold on the market for players to buy and actually be able to afford is not a bad thing to everyone, just you.

There is less incentive to use the trade center
Trade center was made to enable people to trade, with this update, much less people will be trading there than before. Already before people complained that AT are too expensive (and thus farming margins too low), and before they couldnt get free AT with MT. Now they can, and thus less people will use trade center to trade. people who have SS will never sell AT on the trade center anymore, instead they can sell them for the same price on GM, and use all MT to get AT. Selling AT at the trade center would be a big mistake, which means that AT price on market center will not fall with the supply of demand, and AT on market center will be slightly overpriced.
No One with SS uses the trade center anyway, and its limited so severly that useing it causes very little difference. You want to fix trading, then stop witholding the GM from NON-SS players. Thats whats killing trade and killing their ability to compete. Don't give me "AT on market will be slightly overpriced" either. If someone is willing to pay for them they are priced right. Its called supply and demand.

There is less incentive to vote for Aderan Wars
Since players can get +500 free AT each week, in addition to 336 AT they always received. They now produce AT at the speed of 249%. Voting gives 54 AT per day. If before it could double the number of AT you get, now it increases your AT production only by 50%. Obviously less people will vote now. (Arguing that with market people can get more AT is bullshit, because these AT are expensive and not everyone can afford them, AND those who don't want to farm, will get free AT anyway to sell them to others, which will obviously decrease the value of AT in the near future.)
Voting should not be considered nor should it be a condition to play the game. You should vote for a game you like, not to get free stuff. Not everyone wants to committ 10 to 20 minutes(when they only play for 5 minute) to vote for a game they don't believe in. Some people would rather log in and use those same 10 to 20 minute at actually play the damn game over voting for it. Some would rather EARN what they have through ingame actions then be handed stuff free for outgame actions. So just keep that in mind.

Calculation, AT per week:
regular AT: 48*7=336
free AT: 16/4*125=500

There will be less new players joining
As less people vote, AW will drop in ranks and less people will register on Aderan Wars.
Thank you for this sabotage!
Drama queen anyone? If voting is whats keeping this game alive, you might as well close it now. If the game can not grow by its own merits and by word of mouth, then its doomed to die anyway.

Attack Turns lose value
If before AT were rising at an average rate of 2% per day, the price of AT will halt for a long time, or even fall sharply as soon as players realise that there are simply too many AT out there to farm for the same profit.
People will have to farm for less, and attack turns will fall in price, profit margins per hit will fall too. People who worked hard to get many AT, will lose a lot of value. Doubling the number of AT serverwide will decrease AT prices by 50% to reach market equilibrium. Considering the price rigidity, it might take 2 or 3 weeks until the price stabilises, and of course inflation will counteract the price fall of AT. The value of AT will fall much more than the price of AT.
Thats life, and it happens in EVERY game I have ever played, because if you don't do it from time to time the cost of AT outgrows the farms, and it leads to stagnation and boredom.

There will be less incentive to farm
In the near future, when prices stabilise, the profits will be lower than now. If now someone has 50 million profit per hit, and each 3 months the profit doubles, after 3 months he wants 100 million profit, because future kuwal is worth less than present kuwal, but if in 3 months he will still earn 50 million, he will be upset, and some farmers will stop farming.
If he still 50 mill per hit but can hit 3 times as many times then he is still making a profit, problem solved. People don't farm just for incentive as well, often its done for fun, and for occupation of time. While I agree that yes it will be bad for the general kewal farmer feeding on inactives, you give no notice the all the good effects such as bringing down AT prices so that the average player can afford them and own/have them, and the boon given to the raider so that he can commit more time to the game, increasing activity and interaction with other players

There will be less people donating
Since 1$ gets you 300 AT, and now people will get more AT per person, there will be less incentive to donate.
IDK about this one, you may be right, you may not. Most who donate do so because they want to support the game. Also, what makes you think they will stop donating when they can get XXX for free and still buy the same amount for even more benefit? But all I can say is we shall see. The $$ donations will tell the story in time. You may be right.

Even less new players due to less advertising
Since there will be less donations, there will be less advertising for aderan wars, and thus less new players joining.
You state it as fact, if it is or isnt has yet to be proven
--------------

Additionaly a couple words: People wanted more AT, and their wish has been granted already long time ago, now people can double their production if they take the 5 minutes to vote each day. It isn't a good idea to destroy the value of AT even more. Considering it is only a minority of players who vote each day, most people don't seem to care much about getting more AT anyway. Of course, no one will be against getting more AT, if they don't think about the backlash that it produces.

Equally a government could ask its citizens. Do you want the government to start printing money and pay out 1000$ to each person each month? I guess the majority would vote for such change. And it might work well for a couple days, but 2 times more money doesn't equal two times more goods, and all it would lead to is a devaluation of the dollar. After 1 month, people would simply have to pay 2 times more $ to buy anything, and they would have to pay 2 times more $ to import anything.

Of course, even though it would be a stupid decision people would make, I believe it should be the people who decide, and not simply the government start printing money like crazy without asking anyone.

I have exposed admin for the little spineless weasel which he is, too weak to resist the pressure of a couple guys and making updates which defy logic, without even asking people if they want it!

@admin
You don't see very far down the road do you?
This is rich, you chastise other for doing what you are doing now.

Funny thing is, if there are MORE who want this update than those who don't, then what is wrong with it? Admin is suppose to accept YOUR wants over the majority?

Additionally YOU have your own game. Build it like YOU want it built, but don't try to change someone else game to what YOU want when a majority of this game plays this game because of the direction this game is going.
You do the same damn thing in AW2 that your standing here criticizing Martin for doing. You know what that makes you look like?

Your update increases the number of attack turns players have. More attack turns will decrease their value. It's basic economics. Get that through your head you damn fool.
Then get it through you damn head YOU damn fool that if you can make 1 more hit and end up with more total profit then your still coming out better! There comes a time where if something to promote activity isnt done, then a game dies, Not everyone wants to play a game for 5 DAMN MINUTES A DAY THANK YOU!!!!!!

Good thing you and Martin are brothers and blood is thicker then water. If you were my brother and chose to attack me publicly like that I would knock you on your ass.

It kills me how you get updates YOU want added because your always in his ear, and are often the sounding board for new ideas, but lord forbid an idea gets added YOU don't like.

Childish.

by october_17 Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:34 pm

um could you point out the part where you claim he called his brother a "spinles weasel" i looked but didnt see it

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:37 pm

I dont claim it mate, read the first post? Its still there?

The first post in this thread? Kenzu's first post?

here is a quote of the first post, same as above?

Spoiler:

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:40 pm

Nomad wrote:

Funny thing is, if there are MORE who want this update than those who don't, then what is wrong with it? Admin is suppose to accept YOUR wants over the majority?

3 people is not more than 200.
If there are more people who want this update, then I am sure admin will have nothing against making a survey and asking everyone to vote on this matter.

If the majority agrees with it, then I accept it too.
People deserve what they vote for.

Unfortunately, the admin doesn't want to make a survey, because he knows that most people would be against it.

october_17 wrote:um could you point out the part where you claim he called his brother a "spinles weasel" i looked but didnt see it

It is there. Admin doesn't consider it to be offensive. In fact there are 3 things which I consider very offensive, which have been said about me by SA47 and ian. I reported it, but unfortunately admin didn't give out punishment for them, not even a warning, claiming that it's not offensive. What I wrote is an exact copy of the offensive things that SA47 and ian said against me unpunished.

It's good to know that other people also agree its offensive. And I hope one day there will be a strict policy to ban everyone for a week for offensive language. Offensive language is not restricted to insults. Suggesting someone is stupid, or making fun of someone is also offensive. I want our forum to be a place where people can talk like adults and I don't want to be confronted with childish behaviour at all. Punishing offensive behaviour would be a step in the right direction.

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:40 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Funny thing is, if there are MORE who want this update than those who don't, then what is wrong with it? Admin is suppose to accept YOUR wants over the majority?

3 people is not more than 200.
If there are more people who want this update, then I am sure admin will have nothing against making a survey and asking everyone to vote on this matter.

If the majority agrees with it, then I accept it too.
People deserve what they vote for.

Unfortunately, the admin doesn't want to make a survey, because he knows that most people would be against it.

So tell us how you know its only 3 people?

This I got to hear.

by october_17 Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:41 pm

ah i dont know how i overlooked that.... maby beacaus i was looking for realy big letters.... i assumed you of all people wouldnt be stupid enough to lie about somthing so easily verifiable i just didnt want to put my foot in my mouth so to speak

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:43 pm

Not a problem mate, I'm shocked myself tbh.

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:51 pm

What I want to say is that it got discussed on a forum, which is visited regularly maybe by 30 people, but we got almost 200 actives.

I for example didn't even see such suggestion at all (having MR produce 125 free turns)

There should be a democratic vote.

by october_17 Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:52 pm

if people want a say in it they have the right to use the forums aswell,

kenzu msn me

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:54 pm

I use the forums every day and I didnt see such suggestion.

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:59 pm

Kenzu wrote:What I want to say is that it got discussed on a forum, which is visited regularly maybe by 30 people, but we got almost 200 actives.

I for example didn't even see such suggestion at all (having MR produce 125 free turns)

There should be a democratic vote.

I don't disagree

*i thought it was 100, not 125?

Use 1 Market Reserve to receive a 100 Attack Turns for no extra cost.

Use 1 Market Reserve to receive a 50 Supply Turns for no extra cost.

so it seems to have been reduced a bit, you there was a misunderstanding

by ian Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:02 pm

Kenzu wrote:Hello everyone, I'd like to address the free turns update, which allows people to get +500 Attack Turns for free without effort.
Here are the reasons why I am against this update:

No updates should be made if majority is against them. Let people decide
We had surveys on other things, but this update gets done after a guy suggests it, without proper forum discussion, without asking what AW players think about it. I say people should see both viewpoints, why it should be made, and also why it shouldnt be made, and then vote if they want it or not, just like in previous surveys.

Admin is the admin, there have been numerous updates he's implemented which a lot of people have oppossed. Why should this be any different just because you disagree with it?

This update rewards laziness
This update rewards laziness, as people who are too lazy to farm and even people who log in once a week, can benefit a lot from this update, because all they need to do is once a week change all 16 MT to 4 MR, and change 4 MR to 4*125 AT (500 AT), which they can easily sell on galactic market for 15.000.000.000 kuwal. Also, new players can grow extremely fast, if they get additional 15 billion each week, and reaching 10.000 unit production will not come with the feeling of accomplishment anymore.

If this HELPS new players grow faster, then surely thats a good thing? I.e. the faster a new player grows, the more sense of accomplishment they ll have, and the more they ll also witness themselves catching other players up.... hopefully resulting in them being more likely to keep playing the game, and thus benefiting the game itself. Its also worth noting if they sell UU for attack turns on the ingame market thats 134 UU per 1 AT - the equivalent of 23.4million kuwal per 1 AT, 234.5million kuwal per 10 AT. They can easily hit for 320million+ kuwal on inactives - about 85million profit per hit. 16 MT a week - 16 x 145 = 2,320 / 10 = 232 x 85million = 19,720,000,000 kuwal+ profit.

Why on earth would any person with half a brain cell choose to use their MT for market reserves to get the attack turns to then sell for 15billion profit, when they could use those same MT to trade resources to make 19.720billion+ profit?

There is less incentive to use the trade center
Trade center was made to enable people to trade, with this update, much less people will be trading there than before. Already before people complained that AT are too expensive (and thus farming margins too low), and before they couldnt get free AT with MT. Now they can, and thus less people will use trade center to trade. people who have SS will never sell AT on the trade center anymore, instead they can sell them for the same price on GM, and use all MT to get AT. Selling AT at the trade center would be a big mistake, which means that AT price on market center will not fall with the supply of demand, and AT on market center will be slightly overpriced.

Surely the more attack-turns there are available on the server, will cause the attack turn price to either stabilize (no longer rising as fast) or to actively fall? Yes that means less people would be selling their attack turns... since more people would be able to farm with them and actually make more kuwal via farming than they could via selling AT. More Farming = More activity on the server. More activity on the server = good for Aderan Wars.

If the trade centre being used less is the price to allow more players on AW to become active again... then its a good price to pay

There is less incentive to vote for Aderan Wars
Since players can get +500 free AT each week, in addition to 336 AT they always received. They now produce AT at the speed of 249%. Voting gives 54 AT per day. If before it could double the number of AT you get, now it increases your AT production only by 50%. Obviously less people will vote now. (Arguing that with market people can get more AT is bullshit, because these AT are expensive and not everyone can afford them, AND those who don't want to farm, will get free AT anyway to sell them to others, which will obviously decrease the value of AT in the near future.)

Calculation, AT per week:
regular AT: 48*7=336
free AT: 16/4*125=500

Well... the simple solution, if this is such a gigantic concern (which it isn't), is to increase the AT rewarded per vote? Maybe have a cumulative increase for sustained voting? I.e. 7 days of repeatedly voting for all the votes the amount you ll get will increase to 1.2 billion kuwal, 65 attack turns and 8 supply turns Another week of sustained voting... and it increases by another 20%. Eventually 5 weeks of repeated voting and it will max out at double what you can currently get.

As for the other rubbish you ve put... AT are so expensive because there is a demand for them. If there is double the AT of what there was (when there was a big demand), unless the AT prices halve... AT sellers will be better off now vs. then... and since AT were so desperately needed before this update (And will still be needed), its exceptionally unlikely the prices will halve.

I would actually think anyone with a brain cell who happens to sell attack turns would realize the more AT they get (whether from the update, or continuing to vote) can only benefit them.... unless AT prices drop by such a substantial amount to off-set the increased AT production they now get... which is honestly not going to happen.

There will be less new players joining
As less people vote, AW will drop in ranks and less people will register on Aderan Wars.
Thank you for this sabotage!

Thats just your guessing less people will vote. If they are selling AT (or farming with them)... why on earth wouldn't they want more free AT? On the other hand.. by making more AT available, admin has achieved several things:

1.) He's made it easier for farmers to farm. Improving activity = benefiting Aderan Wars
2.) He's given those who sell AT, more AT to sell. So unless prices drop to reflect the increased AT available (I.e. 200% more AT, prices drop to 50% of what they were), then those sellers will be better off vs. before. Benefiting them and increasing the likelyhood of them continuing to play AW if they are making reasonable progress.

Attack Turns lose value
If before AT were rising at an average rate of 2% per day, the price of AT will halt for a long time, or even fall sharply as soon as players realise that there are simply too many AT out there to farm for the same profit.
People will have to farm for less, and attack turns will fall in price, profit margins per hit will fall too. People who worked hard to get many AT, will lose a lot of value. Doubling the number of AT serverwide will decrease AT prices by 50% to reach market equilibrium. Considering the price rigidity, it might take 2 or 3 weeks until the price stabilises, and of course inflation will counteract the price fall of AT. The value of AT will fall much more than the price of AT.

Thats a complete load of rubbish. One of the reasons Aderan Wars is in decline is that required profit margins make it next to a hard task to farm a reasonable amount of times. If more Attack Turns (thus less AT value) reduces the attackers losses, they will be able to farm for lower amounts, increasing their activity and making AW more interesting to them. There's also the simple fact AT prices are NOT going to simply halve as you seem to think they will....

There will be less incentive to farm
In the near future, when prices stabilise, the profits will be lower than now. If now someone has 50 million profit per hit, and each 3 months the profit doubles, after 3 months he wants 100 million profit, because future kuwal is worth less than present kuwal, but if in 3 months he will still earn 50 million, he will be upset, and some farmers will stop farming.

Again, a complete load of rubbish. If attack turns are at lower prices, the amount of kuwal players will have to steal will be lower to reflect this. This means they can hit for lower amounts out - actually allowing them to farm more often. Factor in the upcoming update of attack supers dropping to 45,000 from 150,000.... and the attack losses (and defence losses) will rapidly decline, making it far less costly to farm & thus allowing more farming to take place.

You don't seem to understand that people like myself, Lord Ishurue etc... (and a fairly large chunk of The Imperium) have basically quit the game at the moment (I log in and bank maybe twice a day, its only been with your recent actions and your "TOC is awesome" attitude which has made me become active again simply to cause you & WR problems just for the hell of it) in large part due to there being nothing to do other than to bank & train UU. Farming is not a easy task on AW. IF this update helps improve that... then good job admin!.

There will be less people donating
Since 1$ gets you 300 AT, and now people will get more AT per person, there will be less incentive to donate.

Simple solution: Increase the number of AT you get per $$$ to reflect the possibly decreased value of AT (I.e. 30% reduced value, increase the number of AT per $ by 30%)

Even less new players due to less advertising
Since there will be less donations, there will be less advertising for aderan wars, and thus less new players joining.

Thats again assuming less people will vote. Its also ignoring the fact the positive affect of more AT being available to players will allow them to grow faster (and if your a farmer, be more active farming) which should actually help improve player-retention on the game, and maybe even get players who were not so interested in AW, back interested in... possibly resulting in them bringing more friends to it.

--------------

Additionaly a couple words: People wanted more AT, and their wish has been granted already long time ago, now people can double their production if they take the 5 minutes to vote each day. It isn't a good idea to destroy the value of AT even more. Considering it is only a minority of players who vote each day, most people don't seem to care much about getting more AT anyway. Of course, no one will be against getting more AT, if they don't think about the backlash that it produces.

Thats your opinion on a back-lash. More AT may well have a positive impact on the game, when coupled with other updates. Lets also not forget the Air-Force update admin has promised to be implemented inside of the next month or 2. Surely using the air-force will need AT?

Equally a government could ask its citizens. Do you want the government to start printing money and pay out 1000$ to each person each month? I guess the majority would vote for such change. And it might work well for a couple days, but 2 times more money doesn't equal two times more goods, and all it would lead to is a devaluation of the dollar. After 1 month, people would simply have to pay 2 times more $ to buy anything, and they would have to pay 2 times more $ to import anything.

Of course, even though it would be a stupid decision people would make, I believe it should be the people who decide, and not simply the government start printing money like crazy without asking anyone.

3 words: John Maynard Keynes. Or more specifically... Keynesian economics

I have exposed admin for the little spineless weasel I m glad you ve picked up on one of my favourite sayings... albeit one which I normally aim at you which he is, too weak to resist the pressure of a couple guys and making updates which defy logic, without even asking people if they want it!

These updates don't defy logic, they make perfect sense

@admin
You don't see very far down the road do you?
Your update increases the number of attack turns players have. More attack turns will decrease their value. It's basic economics. Get that through your head you damn fool.

@ Admin. I think you should ban Kenzu for a week or so for calling you a fool. I d also like to congratulate you on looking far down the road without the blinkered vision Kenzu has, and actively implementing a update which should hopefully result in farming being easier, thus increasing activity on the game, hopefully helping improve players interest in the game, helping keep them playing and bringing more players to the game. Plus you ve managed to do it in such a way which allows those who don't farm, to still benefit from the update (More AT to sell), helping make them enjoy the game more as well Nice update.

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:03 pm

Nomad wrote:
Kenzu wrote:What I want to say is that it got discussed on a forum, which is visited regularly maybe by 30 people, but we got almost 200 actives.

I for example didn't even see such suggestion at all (having MR produce 125 free turns)

There should be a democratic vote.

I don't disagree

*i thought it was 100, not 125?

Use 1 Market Reserve to receive a 100 Attack Turns for no extra cost.

Use 1 Market Reserve to receive a 50 Supply Turns for no extra cost.

so it seems to have been reduced a bit, you there was a misunderstanding

apparently it got changed to 100 some time ago.

I changed some MR at a rate of 125, probably the same hour the update has been made.
I guess it has been changed in the meantime.

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:26 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Kenzu wrote:What I want to say is that it got discussed on a forum, which is visited regularly maybe by 30 people, but we got almost 200 actives.

I for example didn't even see such suggestion at all (having MR produce 125 free turns)

There should be a democratic vote.

I don't disagree

*i thought it was 100, not 125?

Use 1 Market Reserve to receive a 100 Attack Turns for no extra cost.

Use 1 Market Reserve to receive a 50 Supply Turns for no extra cost.

so it seems to have been reduced a bit, you there was a misunderstanding

apparently it got changed to 100 some time ago.

I changed some MR at a rate of 125, probably the same hour the update has been made.
I guess it has been changed in the meantime.

well that makes it alittle better for you then. Just wanted to square away the descrepency.

by Admin Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:29 pm

ian 2 things

kenzu got called the same combination of words by someone, nomad i think though dont crucify me if i'm wrong, and while he demanded a punishment, I deemed it not to be offensive enough to warrant a ban. I will not deem it anything else now just because someone directs it at me.

Yes I should consider this a different case if one would adopt a stance of "dont argue with mods", but then again, I have no need for that, people like nimras would most likely I bet.

spineless weasel also comes close, but I decided against a ban for you because of the age of the people involved. Had I not known for a fact that both of you are "mature" adults but that there's a chance a small kid might be the target of this, I might have looked into it.

anyways thanks for the idea of cummulative voting over time i might look into that.

It was 125 for a while, then dropped it to 100 so instead of a 20.5% profit per kuwal spent to buy at's on the trade center you only need to hit a 17% profit to earn more than the AT's you get for free would get you.
Considering the usual profit I aim for when hitting 0 def's is around 40-50% then I think either way it'd be far away from the minimum profit margin required.

by Nomad Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:42 pm

I lashed out at Kenzu after he lashed out at you, but would accept a banning for my actions. I dislike those type posts and actions and do not want to see them common place, yet here I am doing that which I dislike. People slip and make mistakes. People get emotional and defensive, but people also need to be responsible for their own actions.

I would have accepted a bann, I could have gotten my point across without that kind of language or making it personal.

by seaborgium Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:59 pm

wow I missed that, I didn't even notice that the first 5 times i read it.

by kingkongfan1 Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:09 pm

Spoiler:

my 2 cents worth... I agree with nomad, as I do not think that kenzu can see that there is actually more than 1 way to play this game... he plays the game his way, & I play it mine, both are different, but the goals are in fact the same, to increase the size & strength of our accounts, I will not say that my way is better, but at the same time, I know that I do not want to play kenzu's way as it would ultimately lead to me leaving the game due to extreme bordom... honestly I do not see the harm in the additional AT's, & kenzu's rant does not explain anything sufficently to me, to change my mind on the matter. I will say this tho, if it becomes apparent that these extra AT's do in fact become harmful for the game, then I will advocate their removal...

by Kenzu Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:23 pm

Admin wrote:ian 2 things

kenzu got called the same combination of words by someone, nomad i think though dont crucify me if i'm wrong, and while he demanded a punishment, I deemed it not to be offensive enough to warrant a ban. I will not deem it anything else now just because someone directs it at me.

Yes I should consider this a different case if one would adopt a stance of "dont argue with mods", but then again, I have no need for that, people like nimras would most likely I bet.

spineless weasel also comes close, but I decided against a ban for you because of the age of the people involved. Had I not known for a fact that both of you are "mature" adults but that there's a chance a small kid might be the target of this, I might have looked into it.

anyways thanks for the idea of cummulative voting over time i might look into that.

It was 125 for a while, then dropped it to 100 so instead of a 20.5% profit per kuwal spent to buy at's on the trade center you only need to hit a 17% profit to earn more than the AT's you get for free would get you.
Considering the usual profit I aim for when hitting 0 def's is around 40-50% then I think either way it'd be far away from the minimum profit margin required.

But what you didnt consider is that with this update less people will sell their AT on the trade center. In fact, everyone who has SS and wants to sell AT, should simply get all free AT he can and sell them on galactic market, and people who could make some money selling AT, now can make much money easier by simply getting free AT and then farming without much care.

AT price will fall on trade center ONLY IF, more AT get sold to trade center, than bought. You ignored looking at the perspective of the AT seller:
AT seller sells 150 AT and gets 3,547,103,680 kuwal.
instead, he could use the 1 MT to buy 1/4 MR and get 31.25 AT

If he farms/raids randomly, he must steal at least:
3,547,103,680/181.25*10= 195.702.272 kuwal
to make more money by getting free AT than by selling them on the market.

I tell you, go raid randomly and you will raid units worth much more than 196 million.

now that it has been changed to +100 AT, you have to steal at least 202,7 million kuwal (1160 UU).

You only need to steal 203 million or 1160 UU per hit to earn more by getting free AT than selling AT in the trade center

I can raid 2000 UU with closed eyes.
There is no reason why anyone should be selling AT to trade center, and that's why there is no reason that trade center AT prices will fall because of this.

AT prices will fall however because of some other reason, namely that there are too many of them, and once farms pay out much less kuwal, people will be willing to sell them for a much lower price.

by seaborgium Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:54 pm

the TC prices won't fall, since admin made them drop, they haven't gone up or down since then.
The only thing I have seen flux is the amount you get from teh BM.

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