level 13 spy/assassin powers

Admin wrote:expensive techs (the basic techs, not spy skills or weapon levels) keep uu prices down, so they will remain as they are for the foreseeable future

the cost for the spy skills and weapon levels is only high because the % boost they offer is also high.
Giong from 5800 power to 7200 is a 25% increase.
Let's say you have 250% techs. See how much it would cost you to increase that by a quarter to 313%
(313% because making 250% stronger by 25% isn't 25 upgrades but 63. If your base attack is 1,000 and your tech is 250% then your attack is 2,500. If you would want to increase it by 25%, then that would be 2,500 x 1.25 = 3,125. With your base attack of 1,000 it means you have to get a 313% tech.)

Basically at 200%, a daning player would pay 1.6 tril kuwal to increase their tech by a quarter to 250%. Compare that to the 950 billion one would pay to go from 5800 power to 7200 and you see that the skill increase is actually cheap (in relative tersm)

Admin wrote:sure, so coming back to the idea that instead of you have a jump of 20% you'll have 5 levels in between with each 4% increases

but then eventually even these jumps would be very big then what split it into more levels even further...

Special Agent 47 wrote:
You are incorrect. I personally am within striking range of the next levels. I work very hard on bank size, and total size because I knew how important both would be in overall account growth, and improvement. With a bank capacity of almost 4 trill now, and the limitless bank of the GM I could in theory buy the next level as soon as my goods sold on the GM. I say many people will buy the 5 trill upgrades when the average size allows it. Presently it doesn't as most who "could" have been in striking range by now chose other goals to pursue and many sold off to reap the benefits of that strategy.

To remove the high costs creates 2 issues. One being they are the driving force for the need of growth over selling off, and they help counter the benefits of staying below AE. Secondly it is a kick in the teeth for those who sacrificed ALOT early on to increase bank size and to grow their accounts. Keep in mind that removing any and all perks to having a large account can potentially turn around and bite you on the ass. The GAAS would drop like a rock if the largest accounts started selling off or trading in their size. That inturn means alot more accounts feel the squeeze of AE and feel it more severely as well as feeling it quicker. That would equal a slow down for everyone as incomes dropped.


All that said, I do think the increases are far to extreme. About 2 more and it will take a year or more just to gain 1 level. I do not think they should be made to small or to easy for the reasons explained above.

Kenzu wrote:
1.I also believe that the galactic market should not be used as a bank. But right now players have pretty much no other option if they want the big upgrades.



2.I dont mind how much researching basic techs costs per power increase.
What I do mind is how much researching basic techs costs per upgrade.

3.Each upgrade should not cost more than 250 billion.

Spoiler:

4.I believe you are the only one, or one of very few who are close to being able to buy this upgrade. I am sure it was not the intention of admin that at some point people will have to play for a year so that they can research one more level, or that people will not be able to research something even though they would like to invest money in it.

5.You said removing high costs => Do you assume I want that you pay less to get the reach 10.000 spy skill?
I still want that reaching 10.000 skill from 7200 will still cost you 5 trillion.

which solves the issue for whatever level people want to save up this time but we'll get the same discussion for the next level i'm afraid

Void wrote:This problem can be solved with a IMF like bank, supported by the taxes collected by the game/admin through ALL the market trades.

A player can have a loan from IMF at an interest rate, based on a formula that should include (amount loaned, IMF funds vs remaining funds, account value, etc - a very complex formula anyway to protect IMF from becoming bankrupt and being scamed). If a player doesn't repay the loan in time (various reasons, ie inactivity, bad customer, etc), the IMF will take UU/upgrades/weapons, from the player etc until all the loan plus all the fees are paid back.

To prevent scams, IMF will only loan in a currency equal in value with kuwal, but that cannot be stolen/traded, but can only be used on upgrades like researches, covert levels, UP, whatever else can be reclaimed back by the IMF. Example of a scam that can be prevented: a multi loans from IMF, puts all kuwal in the open to be stolen. Or a simplified version: IMF will send the loan directly in the players bank, in a section where a player cannot withdraw from, but can use it to fund his upgrades only.


You could split this in a new suggestion thread, to develop further, but I posted it here, because here is the initial problem.

Special Agent 47 wrote:

Kenzu wrote:
1.I also believe that the galactic market should not be used as a bank. But right now players have pretty much no other option if they want the big upgrades.



2.I dont mind how much researching basic techs costs per power increase.
What I do mind is how much researching basic techs costs per upgrade.

3.Each upgrade should not cost more than 250 billion.

Spoiler:

4.I believe you are the only one, or one of very few who are close to being able to buy this upgrade. I am sure it was not the intention of admin that at some point people will have to play for a year so that they can research one more level, or that people will not be able to research something even though they would like to invest money in it.

5.You said removing high costs => Do you assume I want that you pay less to get the reach 10.000 spy skill?
I still want that reaching 10.000 skill from 7200 will still cost you 5 trillion.

1.Glad we agree.

2.Why? Is it because you have to work for it? plan for it? get assistance for it? Is it the fact its not utterly easy and open to anyone at any time? Please explain "why" it's such a bad idea to have things that have to be worked for and earned, why you want to remove the need for growth, and open everything to a 1 day old 100K man account that is open to a 1 year old 10 mill man account. Maybe I can see your logic after you explain the "why". Now All I see is you wanting to remove the needs for bank increases, remove the need for overall account growth, and actually removing the need for a bank at all to be honest.

No, it is because I believe that research development should depend mostly on wether you can afford it or not, and not on your skills as a "fund transfer magician"

3.Why 250 bill? I know this is just your own personal opinion, and many probably feel it is misguided and foolish, but I would still be interested in the "why". Why not 100 bill so those smaller then you can reap the benefits? Why not 1 trill so it is still a struggle for all the midrange players? All I see is the removal of a challenge and a goal. Levels are meant to be difficult. When a level is out of your range then you work on Tech's until you can obtain the level. If you make levels cheap and easy why bother with Tech's at all? Why not just keep pushing levels?

250 billion was meant as an example. If it is 100 billion, I am completely ok with it.
It should be an amount that an average player, who reaches such tech level is still able to pay it from his bank.
Right now it's no challenge for anyone with SS as they can simply place a bid on the market and withdraw it once they saved up enough funds. So there is no skill involved. The only ones who suffer are those who dont have SS and those who don't know of the market banking possibility or believe it is against rules.

4.Only 1 or 1 of a few? YES I more then likely am. In another year there will be 10, 20, or more in the same shape. Its called growth. Its a natural progression of a game. Levels costing so much foster and promote growth since it is the only way, well best and easiest way, to obtain the goal of higher levels.

There is no rational reason why levels should cost more with each level, if there is also the possibility of keeping price of each level same and simply lowering the bonus that each level offers.

Why wouldn't Admin want players to eventually have long term goals? Short term goals are easy and give little satisfaction. You say you want all upgrades capped at 250 bill. You do realize that present incomes are over 1 bill a turn, so its easy to say 1 days income is 50 bill to many. That's 5 days to reach that goal just on income. What happens when income double, triple, or even go 10 times what they are now? What happens when 250 bill is 1 days income? Capping the prices as you suggest is a short sighted fix and will eventually fail. It is not a solution.

If levels are split up into many levels they can still have long term goals. And their long term goal might change from level 14 spy skill to simply 10.000 spy power, which is basically the same in terms of power and upgrade cost. How does it take away long term goals?

People can invest money into any stat through tech's if they can not obtain the level. You have 2 outlets to boost each stat. 1 is easy, quick, and simple. The other is difficult, time consuming, and can be very tricky to pull off.

5.I assume nothing. What your requesting removes the need or usefulness of a bank, it removes the need and usefulness of bank increases, it is a spit in the face of those who invested heavily in banking enhancements and overall growth so they could obtain goals not readily available to the common account. What you want the "end" cost to be is not my issue with the suggestion. Making it so the bank itself is useless, bank enhancements are useless, and the very few perks to overall account growth are made useless is what I have an issue with.

There has to come a time when an account who sells off size for income or account advancements suffers because of the strategy. A 1 mill man account should not be able to advance as far as a 100 mill man account. As it stands the only things small accounts can not match increase per increase against larger accounts is levels because they require massive bank space and the size needed to get massive bank space.

Void wrote:

Kenzu wrote:

Void wrote:This problem can be solved with a IMF like bank, supported by the taxes collected by the game/admin through ALL the market trades.

A player can have a loan from IMF at an interest rate, based on a formula that should include (amount loaned, IMF funds vs remaining funds, account value, etc - a very complex formula anyway to protect IMF from becoming bankrupt and being scamed). If a player doesn't repay the loan in time (various reasons, ie inactivity, bad customer, etc), the IMF will take UU/upgrades/weapons, from the player etc until all the loan plus all the fees are paid back.

To prevent scams, IMF will only loan in a currency equal in value with kuwal, but that cannot be stolen/traded, but can only be used on upgrades like researches, covert levels, UP, whatever else can be reclaimed back by the IMF. Example of a scam that can be prevented: a multi loans from IMF, puts all kuwal in the open to be stolen. Or a simplified version: IMF will send the loan directly in the players bank, in a section where a player cannot withdraw from, but can use it to fund his upgrades only.


You could split this in a new suggestion thread, to develop further, but I posted it here, because here is the initial problem.

Interesting that you mention IMF. In the other Aderan Wars game called Red Apocalypse, something similar has been annouced. It's called a World Bank and allows you to take a debt equal to up to 20 days of your income.
https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2435-world-bank-lending-kuwal

My suggestion was inspired by that, but I don't think that the loan should be based on income, but on account value. For example military based players should be able to make large loans too as long as IMF can recover the loan back. Also the player should be able to pay back when they want in what amounts they want/can afford and not by losing from income revenue per turn.

Kenzu wrote:
No, it is because I believe that research development should depend mostly on wether you can afford it or not, and not on your skills as a "fund transfer magician"
I find this statement confusing. I agree about the "fund transfer magician" part. Many have lobbied Admin to fix the unlimited bank exploits or to open it to all and not just SS players but no one has been able to get him to budge. Maybe you should talk to him since he listens more to you then anyone else. As for the first part where you state it should depend on weather you can afford it or not,,,,, well that part is a complete contridication. Your asking the prices to be dropped so any account can afford any upgrade with no need of any bank size past 250 bill. Please explain, because it appears you want every account to be able to afford anything. You don't want it based on weather you can afford it, you want all to be able to afford it.


250 billion was meant as an example. If it is 100 billion, I am completely ok with it.
It should be an amount that an average player, who reaches such tech level is still able to pay it from his bank.
Right now it's no challenge for anyone with SS as they can simply place a bid on the market and withdraw it once they saved up enough funds. So there is no skill involved. The only ones who suffer are those who dont have SS and those who don't know of the market banking possibility or believe it is against rules.
I agree admin has created a great error and have tried to talk him into fixing it, but to no avail. What it appears you are asking for is no enhancement to be bigger then ones bank size? Is this the case? If so what is the perk or reason for growing past others as there is no benefit. It makes more sense to sell size for income since bank space is no longer an issue with all enhancements being cheap enough to be bought from the bank.


There is no rational reason why levels should cost more with each level, if there is also the possibility of keeping price of each level same and simply lowering the bonus that each level offers.
No rational reason? I strongly disagree. There is More rational of a reason to Support higher cost then to not. Covert techniques are very similar to weaponry. The most basic techniques are like the most basic weapons. Born from necessity, cheap, and made from readily accessible materials. Knives are cheap and can be mass produced. The most up to date and cutting edge covert techniques are like Tanks and Helicopters. It took billions and billions, decades of research, and the use of highly inaccessible material to hand craft each weapon individually.

Now yes there is the option of cutting the cost as well as cutting the increase to reach the same effect, but I still do not see why it is needed. Why the only thing in the game left that actually promotes growth needs to be erased so any account can afford anything is not sensible to me.


If levels are split up into many levels they can still have long term goals. And their long term goal might change from level 14 spy skill to simply 10.000 spy power, which is basically the same in terms of power and upgrade cost. How does it take away long term goals?
We define a long term goal differently.
I define a long term goal as 1 difficult act that requires a long time to complete.
You seem to define multiple simple and easy tasks over a period of time as a long term goal.


Not at all, because bank size is important for building a massive war chest, and also because bank by default is very small allowing only 2 or 3 days of income to be saved, and since most people want to buy upgrades that cost 5 or 10 days of their income, they will increase their bank size, and they will do it long before they reach the 5 trillion research.
I am not understanding this at all TBH. No one builds a massive war chest. No one needs one. You say a bank is small, and upgrades are needed, but I do not understand why? If your suggestion is used the largest bank size truly "needed" is 250 bill. Anything past that is basically useless and wasted money that could be used in an enhancement somewhere.