level 13 spy/assassin powers

by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:45 am

i suggest the level 13 upgrades be a 31.81% increase instead of a 24.1% .

5800 x 1.3181 = 7644 . so 7650.

down the road when people get level 14 upgrades .
lets assume level 14 spy is also a 24.1% increase . it costs 4.9 Tril +

level 14 spy & AP is 8,937 . so prolly 8940 .

by Nomad Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:59 pm

Why? is there a particular reason you suggest this? or you just wanting more power for less investment?

by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:10 pm

Nomad wrote:Why? is there a particular reason you suggest this? or you just wanting more power for less investment?

slightly more power for the investment as well as future investments .

assuming level 14 spy/ AP is 8900 ish for 5 tril ish . is not much nor practical atm.

pretty much making it a cut off point on level upgrades . of 31.81%

7200 - 24.13% increase from 5800 costs 809- 900 bil ish
5800 - 31.81% increase from 4400 costs 135 bil ish
4400 37.5% increase from 3200 costs 24bil ish
3200 - 42.85% increase from 2240 costs 4bil ish
2240

other games the power doubles and the cost for the upgrade doubles . ( extremely over powered )

in AWs the upgrade power % weakens with each increase and the cost increase by over 400% . ( extremely under powered )

by Admin Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:21 pm

so wait, let me clarify

your argument for increasing the power is that as of this moment it's not worth getting the next level?

wtf

by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:16 pm

Admin wrote:so wait, let me clarify

your argument for increasing the power is that as of this moment it's not worth getting the next level?

wtf

the upgrade power is under powered . going from a 31.81% power boost down to a 24.13% while the cost for each upgrade drastically increases does not make sense .

The kuwal investment on the upgrades should yield a slightly better return .

a cutoff point of 31.81% .
.
14 - 10,000
13 - 7650
12 - 5800

by Admin Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:38 pm

how'd you figure that?

by Nomad Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:15 pm

Lord Ishurue wrote:
other games the power doubles and the cost for the upgrade doubles . ( extremely over powered )

in AWs the upgrade power % weakens with each increase and the cost increase by over 400% . ( extremely under powered )

First part i totally agree with, but the second part I totally disagree with. I think the set up is correct, the % should weaken and the cost remain constant or even increase. It mean higher people struggle more and more per level and lower people can close the gap faster.

a tweek I could agree with, but the heart of the system I think is right on.

by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:36 pm

Admin wrote:how'd you figure that?

I have 7200 spy power . the next upgrade costs 4.9 tril .

the sample of 13 and 14 was my suggestion on a tweak as nomad said .

by Admin Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:50 pm

no i meant why you think investment should yield a higher return.

you've already passed that point. right now we're at the point of diminishing returns

by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:05 pm

Admin wrote:no i meant why you think investment should yield a higher return.

you've already passed that point. right now we're at the point of diminishing returns

it seems very weak for the kuwal it costs to achieve it .

a minor tweak or making it maybe 7650 would be fair for the cost of the upgrade .

by Nomad Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:46 pm

I'm more with admin on this one personally.

when buying 1 level can make the difference between rank 20 and rank 1, the cost should be far greater then the effect.

by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:27 pm

Nomad wrote:I'm more with admin on this one personally.

when buying 1 level can make the difference between rank 20 and rank 1, the cost should be far greater then the effect.

all i was looking for was a minor increase . instead of 7200 make if 7500 at very least or 7650 at max .

by Steveanaya Sun May 01, 2011 6:43 pm

Admin wrote:so wait, let me clarify

your argument for increasing the power is that as of this moment it's not worth getting the next level?

wtf

by Kenzu Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:12 am

I would like to get back to this thread.

The next spy level costs me 5 billion kuwal. I believe this is too much. I am not saying that I should reach 10.000 spy skill cheaper, but what I would like to see is a cheaper cost per upgrade.
How about research cost per level be capped at 500 billion maximum and each next level would cost no more than 500 billion, and each level would increase my spy skill by less and less?

For example if I have level 13, spy skill 7650, I could pay 500 billion, which could increase it to 8000 (+350), next level would also cost 500 billion and increase it to 8325 (+325), next level also costs 500 billion and increases it to 8625 (+300).

Let us look at how the powers and prices increase:

Currently we have:

level, power, cost to upgrade
14 - 10,000 (roughly 5000 billion)
13 - 7650 (roughly 900 billion)
12 - 5800 (roughly 180 billion)
11 - 4200 (roughly 27 bilion)

Although it would obviously be a bit problematic to change the powers and research costs now, that everyone has different levels, I believe there should be changes.

Instead of powers growing so much percentage wise (level 13 has a power of 132% compared to level 12), which comes with the problem that it becomes hard for people to advance in levels, it would be a good idea to decrease the power that each level gives you, so that each upgrade can be cheaper.

Let's face reality, an average player without SS will have a hard time saving 900 billion kuwal. Where is he going to put all the money, right?

It would be much better if each level could upgrade your power by let say 1000 and the cost of each level would be altered so that it will remain equivalent to current price.

As an example: The power could always increase by the same absolute value, for example 250, and the research price for each level would be always higher than for the previous level.

Now I didnt come up with the exact figures but if I got for example spy skill level 13 with 7650 power, instead of the next research costing me trillions and increasing it to 1000, it could for example increase it to 8000 for 500 billion.

Same could be done with weapons. Always increasing by the same absolute number, making the research for each level cheaper.
(but the problem with weapons is that with more levels more weapons would have to be designed)

An alternative would be to have decreasing increase in power per level, which would allow even more levels, thus cheaper research per level.

PS: on a second thought even 500 billion per research level is a lot. A player with a massive size, who keeps a normal bank size will never be able to put so much in the bank. Of course he can upgrade, but should he really be forced to do so?

Maybe even 250 billion is already more than enough per research level.

by seaborgium Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:27 pm

you mean make it more like other games that are out there?
this is one of the few unique things about this game.
I agree the cost jump WAY too much.

by kingkongfan1 Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:13 pm

Admin ultimately decided to leave techs unadjusted, personally I say leave this alone as well, for to me it doesn't make sense to adjust part & not the whole...

by Kenzu Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:04 pm

seaborgium wrote:you mean make it more like other games that are out there?
this is one of the few unique things about this game.
I agree the cost jump WAY too much.

to be honest I dont care how other games do it.
The only thing I care about is being able to increase research a bit if I have some additional funds which I would like to put into military research.
With 5 trillion for a research I feel if this is not adjusted, there will be no one researching beyond the 900 billion research.

kingkongfan1 wrote:Admin ultimately decided to leave techs unadjusted, personally I say leave this alone as well, for to me it doesn't make sense to adjust part & not the whole...

Did he? Or did he not change the research costs because he was doing more important things first?
I hope they will be changed in the future, doesn't have to be now, but would be a nice thing to know that it will be reworked.

by Admin Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:27 pm

expensive techs (the basic techs, not spy skills or weapon levels) keep uu prices down, so they will remain as they are for the foreseeable future

the cost for the spy skills and weapon levels is only high because the % boost they offer is also high.
Giong from 5800 power to 7200 is a 25% increase.
Let's say you have 250% techs. See how much it would cost you to increase that by a quarter to 313%
(313% because making 250% stronger by 25% isn't 25 upgrades but 63. If your base attack is 1,000 and your tech is 250% then your attack is 2,500. If you would want to increase it by 25%, then that would be 2,500 x 1.25 = 3,125. With your base attack of 1,000 it means you have to get a 313% tech.)

Basically at 200%, a daning player would pay 1.6 tril kuwal to increase their tech by a quarter to 250%. Compare that to the 950 billion one would pay to go from 5800 power to 7200 and you see that the skill increase is actually cheap (in relative tersm)

by seaborgium Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:27 pm

Kenzu is trying to make it so that players without ss can also upgrade due to they have to use mt to get ats and such. Since you have to use mts to get mrs which you can then use to get bank space

by Admin Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:42 pm

sure, so coming back to the idea that instead of you have a jump of 20% you'll have 5 levels in between with each 4% increases

but then eventually even these jumps would be very big then what split it into more levels even further...

by kingkongfan1 Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:02 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Did he? Or did he not change the research costs because he was doing more important things first?

below are Admins exact words, sounds to me like he was not going to make any adjustments, but it is his statement, I will let him explain it to you...

Admin wrote:
ok, no i explained wrong.
I pitched the idea of reworking techs to only give a tenth of the bonus they give now, so that their added power is comparable to the personal bonus.

however that would drive uu prices up. so i'm leaving that idea.

by Manleva Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:00 am

Admin wrote:expensive techs (the basic techs, not spy skills or weapon levels) keep uu prices down, so they will remain as they are for the foreseeable future

the cost for the spy skills and weapon levels is only high because the % boost they offer is also high.
Giong from 5800 power to 7200 is a 25% increase.
Let's say you have 250% techs. See how much it would cost you to increase that by a quarter to 313%
(313% because making 250% stronger by 25% isn't 25 upgrades but 63. If your base attack is 1,000 and your tech is 250% then your attack is 2,500. If you would want to increase it by 25%, then that would be 2,500 x 1.25 = 3,125. With your base attack of 1,000 it means you have to get a 313% tech.)

Basically at 200%, a daning player would pay 1.6 tril kuwal to increase their tech by a quarter to 250%. Compare that to the 950 billion one would pay to go from 5800 power to 7200 and you see that the skill increase is actually cheap (in relative tersm)

The actual cost of raising the Skill level may be cheaper in the long run than the cost of raising the tech level but the ability to move from 5800 to 7200 is tied into the ability of the player to be able to safely accumulate over 900 Billion. A player with SS has some options available to them that can be utilized to achieve this as they can have other players store Kuwal for them or can use the GM as and additional Bank (could be risky). However a player without SS only really has one option and that is through Bank size which requires population and the use of MR's.

So while Skill increase may be cheaper Tech increase is more attainable as it is done in cheaper and smaller steps and is much more balanced to account growth.

Perhaps the answer is to do nothing about the actual costs because they are actually fair and equatable but instead look at making them more attainable for players by doubling the starting bank size from 50 mill to 100 mill and doubling the subsequent increase in size created by population growth (essentially doubling everyone's bank size and also speeding up Bank capacity growth). Making things more achievable is also a disincentive for players to look for other ways to speed their growth

by Admin Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:15 am

which solves the issue for whatever level people want to save up this time but we'll get the same discussion for the next level i'm afraid

by Nomad Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:16 am

Admin wrote:which solves the issue for whatever level people want to save up this time but we'll get the same discussion for the next level i'm afraid

Your exactly right.

Alot of people sell off size for other things, and this is a draw back from that. I like the fact it forces growth in size and economy as it counters all the "benifits" of staying small.

Let me say I think the costs are to wide from level to level. To go from 900 bill to 5 trill is bad enough, but whats the next level going to be? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but to counter that,,,, isnt that what techs are made for? level 7200 at 100% is far weaker then level 7200 at 300%.

As for saving,,,,,,,,, its one of the reasons GM should be open to all since it is a limitless bank. I mean trade brokers are also a limitless bank but they require constant tending and attention where the GM is a limitless bank you can store funds on indefinitely for no charge and with no worries. All this has been debated before and Admin keeps saying thats how its intended,,,,, so I gave up on the subject even tho I feel it is so wrong in so many different ways.

by Special Agent 47 Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:52 am

Admin wrote:sure, so coming back to the idea that instead of you have a jump of 20% you'll have 5 levels in between with each 4% increases

but then eventually even these jumps would be very big then what split it into more levels even further...

This argument will always exist as long as the price increases. Admin is spot on in this statement.

As for

Kenzu wrote:With 5 trillion for a research I feel if this is not adjusted, there will be no one researching beyond the 900 billion research.

You are incorrect. I personally am within striking range of the next levels. I work very hard on bank size, and total size because I knew how important both would be in overall account growth, and improvement. With a bank capacity of almost 4 trill now, and the limitless bank of the GM I could in theory buy the next level as soon as my goods sold on the GM. I say many people will buy the 5 trill upgrades when the average size allows it. Presently it doesn't as most who "could" have been in striking range by now chose other goals to pursue and many sold off to reap the benefits of that strategy.

To remove the high costs creates 2 issues. One being they are the driving force for the need of growth over selling off, and they help counter the benefits of staying below AE. Secondly it is a kick in the teeth for those who sacrificed ALOT early on to increase bank size and to grow their accounts. Keep in mind that removing any and all perks to having a large account can potentially turn around and bite you on the ass. The GAAS would drop like a rock if the largest accounts started selling off or trading in their size. That inturn means alot more accounts feel the squeeze of AE and feel it more severely as well as feeling it quicker. That would equal a slow down for everyone as incomes dropped.

All that said, I do think the increases are far to extreme. About 2 more and it will take a year or more just to gain 1 level. I do not think they should be made to small or to easy for the reasons explained above.

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