World Bank - lending kuwal

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Post by Kenzu on Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:55 pm

There will be an update, which will be released this round, (will be released as soon as its completed, which can be anytime), which will allow players to take a loan from the World Bank.
The World Bank will allow players to lend kuwal as a debt and repay it anytime, however while having a debt, between 0 to 2% interest each day will be paid to service the debt.
The interest rate will depend on the size of the loan. The more you lend, the higher the interest rate on debt.
You will be able to borrow kuwal of up to 20 days of your income.

Currently it's normal to have an income of 20 million kuwal, which is 960 million per day. This means that if you earn 20 million kuwal per turn, you can lend 19.2 billion kuwal instantly. For each 1 day of income you lend, the interest rate you pay will increase by 0.1%. This means that you will pay 2% in you lend kuwal equal to 20 days of your income. 2% of 19.2 billion is 384 million. This means that the income you earn each day will decrease from 960 million to 576 million because of the massive loan you have taken.

The loan can be used for expensive research, funding wars, or to build a powerful economy. Researching unit production can be especially lucrative.
The loan can be repaid anytime.
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Post by Nomad on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:15 pm

how long do you have to pay it off?

can you borrow more then 1 time?

Will all loans be closed in the last month, week, days to prevent round end buildup?

What is your reasoning for this update? It suggests nothing more then a widening of the gap between players and I do not understand how this is good? Again it is an update that means the bigger you are, the more you get from this. The bigger your income, the bigger the loan you can take out to push your economy even further.

Just wondering your reasoning is all.
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Post by Kenzu on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:17 am

Nomad wrote:how long do you have to pay it off?

can you borrow more then 1 time?

Will all loans be closed in the last month, week, days to prevent round end buildup?

What is your reasoning for this update? It suggests nothing more then a widening of the gap between players and I do not understand how this is good? Again it is an update that means the bigger you are, the more you get from this. The bigger your income, the bigger the loan you can take out to push your economy even further.

Just wondering your reasoning is all.

You can pay it off anytime. As long as you have a debt, you will pay the interest on the outstanding debt.

You can borrow as many times as you want, all that matters is the total debt, which cannot exceed 20 days of your income.

It is linked to your income, because allowing a player with a tiny income to lend as much as a big player would mean that a small player might end up with negative income, which may not happen.
That's why its restricted to 20 days of income, because this will lead to a maximum interest payments equal to 40% income to service the debt (20*2%=40%).

It helps players because they have more possibilities by being able to borrow additional funds. (Obviously)
The gap you are talking about will be smaller than you think, because new players can lend 20 days of income and the benefit they get by putting it into UP will outweigh the cost, however a player who has already researched a high UP cant dump the kuwal there, and 2% interest rate is higher than what they would earn if they used it to train experts (as long as they have enough money to train their uu).

And again it is not a bad thing, because everyone starts with the same income.
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Post by Nomad on Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:22 am

So in theory, you can simply borrow the max amount every day until round end and never pay it back?

Interesting.
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Post by kingkongfan1 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:33 pm

maybe I read it wrong, but it sounds like the interest payment will automaticly be taken out of your turn income, like weapons upkeep is in main... if not I cannot see what is stopping a player from borrowing money, & just not paying anything back... JMO...
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Post by Kenzu on Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:33 pm

kingkongfan is right

if you open income details you will see that in the income sheet the fee for the debt will be automatically deducted from you.

This means that you can use having high debt to lower your income to prevent getting farmed to a certain extend.

There is however one issue that has to be tackled, namely:
Should players be forced to repay their debt by the end of the round or not?

A)
Either it will be allowed for everyone not to repay back, or
B)
Everyone will have to repay his debts.

If nothing is done then players can take out loans before the game ends, make costly research and not repay the loan, while other players who don't take a loan will be at a disadvantage.

Of course everyone can take a loan, but not everyone will think about such possibility.

I'd prefer that everyone has to repay their loans, which can be only done by forcing a player to repay his loan in time, for example by lowering the players income on time to be able to repay the loan on time and at the same time lower the maximum you can lend from the world bank.

In the extreme case a player will lend 20 days of his income, he will end up with an income of only 60% of what he had before, due to interest payments.

With 60% of his income left and 20 days of income in debt, he will need 25 days to repay everything.

Solution:
I see a way out, namely that From 45 days before end of round onwards the maximum debt you may have will be decreasing by 0.5 days of income per day, and 50% of the income you gain (after paying interest on debt) each turn will be used to repay all loans that exceed the maximum debt allowed.

Obviously if RA was a non-reset, then no such thing would be necessary.

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Post by Nomad on Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:41 am

I think it would be foolish to not force repayment, but that me, and I think this entire Idea is rather foolish TBH.

I still ask,,, if I take a loan out on day 1, then double my income can I then take a second loan out before repaying the first?

Way I see it now, basicly you borrow all you can first day, and then every day your income increaes make more and more loans and never pay them back.

As for using high debt to stop being farmed,,,, thats so funny as no one active gets farmed now do they? I mean seems to me the standard def just switched over to newer weapons along with loging in 1 time a day is enough to not get farmed.


I hope you force repayment,,,,, personally I think any outstanding debt should sell off weapons, then remove techs and technologies as that would destroy your rank at rounds end.


I still fail to see the need or use for this update, but put it out there and we will see how it works I guess.
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Post by Kenzu on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:38 am

Nomad wrote:I think it would be foolish to not force repayment, but that me, and I think this entire Idea is rather foolish TBH.

I still ask,,, if I take a loan out on day 1, then double my income can I then take a second loan out before repaying the first?
Yes, you can take another loan. The number of loans you take doesn't matter, what matters is the total amount of kuwal you have to repay.

Way I see it now, basicly you borrow all you can first day, and then every day your income increaes make more and more loans and never pay them back.
2% interest per day is very high. As soon as you hit a certain unit production, you should try to repay the loan to lower the interest, otherwise you will loose ground to someone who doesn't pay so much on interest each day.

As for using high debt to stop being farmed,,,, thats so funny as no one active gets farmed now do they? I mean seems to me the standard def just switched over to newer weapons along with loging in 1 time a day is enough to not get farmed.
Active players do get farmed.


I hope you force repayment,,,,, personally I think any outstanding debt should sell off weapons, then remove techs and technologies as that would destroy your rank at rounds end.
Selling weapons is a good idea.

I still fail to see the need or use for this update, but put it out there and we will see how it works I guess.
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Post by Nomad on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:35 am

[quote="Kenzu"]
Nomad wrote:Way I see it now, basicly you borrow all you can first day, and then every day your income increaes make more and more loans and never pay them back.
2% interest per day is very high. As soon as you hit a certain unit production, you should try to repay the loan to lower the interest, otherwise you will loose ground to someone who doesn't pay so much on interest each day.

It has never been that a person survived, or flurished on their own income. 2% of your own income is nothing in comparison to a persons overall income including farming and raiding. I would like to see the numbers to be sure, but I would bet a person taking the loans and never repaying (continually borrowing) will come out ahead over the 3 months then someone not borrowing, or borrowing and then repaying.

(Assuming no repay is forced at rounds end) Thats why repay should be forced.
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Post by Kenzu on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:24 pm

[quote="Nomad"]
Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:Way I see it now, basicly you borrow all you can first day, and then every day your income increaes make more and more loans and never pay them back.
2% interest per day is very high. As soon as you hit a certain unit production, you should try to repay the loan to lower the interest, otherwise you will loose ground to someone who doesn't pay so much on interest each day.

It has never been that a person survived, or flurished on their own income. 2% of your own income is nothing in comparison to a persons overall income including farming and raiding. I would like to see the numbers to be sure, but I would bet a person taking the loans and never repaying (continually borrowing) will come out ahead over the 3 months then someone not borrowing, or borrowing and then repaying.

(Assuming no repay is forced at rounds end) Thats why repay should be forced.

how about between 2 people.

Person A takes a the maximum loan, and never repays, paying 2% interest each day.
And Person B, who takes a loan, after reaching an up, where next up upgrade gives less than 2% benefit per day, he repays the loan, and then before the round ends he takes out maximum loan again to max out his techs.

Which one will be better of now Nomad?
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Post by Nomad on Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:54 am

[quote="Kenzu"]
Nomad wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:Way I see it now, basicly you borrow all you can first day, and then every day your income increaes make more and more loans and never pay them back.
2% interest per day is very high. As soon as you hit a certain unit production, you should try to repay the loan to lower the interest, otherwise you will loose ground to someone who doesn't pay so much on interest each day.

It has never been that a person survived, or flurished on their own income. 2% of your own income is nothing in comparison to a persons overall income including farming and raiding. I would like to see the numbers to be sure, but I would bet a person taking the loans and never repaying (continually borrowing) will come out ahead over the 3 months then someone not borrowing, or borrowing and then repaying.

(Assuming no repay is forced at rounds end) Thats why repay should be forced.

how about between 2 people.

Person A takes a the maximum loan, and never repays, paying 2% interest each day.
And Person B, who takes a loan, after reaching an up, where next up upgrade gives less than 2% benefit per day, he repays the loan, and then before the round ends he takes out maximum loan again to max out his techs.

Which one will be better of now Nomad?

You asking my opinion?

If so I belive it to be the first. Player A has the EXACT same benifits as player B,,, but player B suffers a large loss at some point in the form or repayment that player A never suffers. Looking "historicly" at incomes, I have never seen anyone who made more from personal income then from farming. I'd say life time income,,, personal income is 25% or less. The rest coming from farming/raiding.

So in your example player A and B use the funds identical,,,, Player A doesnt repay, continues to borrow increasing UP and stats, while player B stagnated while repaying, and then stagnates again till rounds end with a massive but useless build up at rounds end.

Thats just my take on it. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong.
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Post by Kenzu on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:46 pm

If everyone can lend the same amount of kuwal, at the same interest rate, how are you going to deal with negative income?
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Post by Nomad on Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:28 am

You use the word Lend in a fashion I do not understand.

Lend means I "give" you something for a time period and it is returned.


I do not know of anyone in the game who can or does lend/give anything to another.

Borrow is what you do if someone or something gives you something for a period of time and then you return it.

If you receive something and do not return it then it was given to you.

As for your question I am not sure I understand. If your asking how to deal with an income drop resulting in a negative income so that the automatic 2% can not be withdrawn,,,,,, my only suggestion would be my first. Removed weapons and sell them first, then techs, then levels, then UP until loan is repaid or account is 0ed of anything that can be sold,,,,, but even that is exploitable by simply taking the loan and then leaving it out for others to take from you knowing you never intend to play anyway.
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Post by Nomad on Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:30 am

You use the word Lend in a fashion I do not understand.

Lend means I "give" you something for a time period and it is returned.


I do not know of anyone in the game who can or does lend/give anything to another.

Borrow is what you do if someone or something gives you something for a period of time and then you return it.

If you receive something and do not return it then it was given to you.

As for your question I am not sure I understand. If your asking how to deal with an income drop resulting in a negative income so that the automatic 2% can not be withdrawn,,,,,, my only suggestion would be my first. Removed weapons and sell them first, then techs, then levels, then UP until loan is repaid or account is 0ed of anything that can be sold,,,,, but even that is exploitable by simply taking the loan and then leaving it out for others to take from you knowing you never intend to play anyway.



*edit,,,another idea*

You cant untrain in RA right? tie the loan amount to your minimum income level? Your income can never drop right? Doing this will force economic growth more but its a trade off in a way.
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Post by Kenzu on Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:13 am

World Bank has been released.
to find it open bank and scroll down.
Report if you find any bugs. Thank you!
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