Re: Ingame trading - what's allowed

by Paladius Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:33 am

So what about an alliance bank, would that be allowed? All members of an alliance contribute a certain amount of kuwal per day or per week to one alliance member who acts as the bank. Let's say that one member has a 500 billion bank size which would basically be used for loans that must be paid back. Would there be a problem if that were done?

by Nomad Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:46 am

You confused me admin, i wasnt talking about account sales, i was talking about selling a large chunk of UU off your account? if the redline/greenline is based on account value, would a plumitting account vale be able to drag you from green to red?

@ Paladius, It will from what I understand, as long as once the bank "Redlines" he sends funds out to counter the redline,,,, basicly meaning it shrinks the alliance "capital" to do programs with, admin can clarify.

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:47 am

Anyone happen to notice the rule changes?

2) Feeding (All kinds of sending resources without receiving a fair value of ingame resources is considered feeding)
Read Specific Rules for examples.

7) Some examples of illegal Feeding:
* Sending 100.000 untrained to a friend
* Selling 1 million untrained for real cash
* Buying 1.000 untrained for 50k per untrained.
* Buying an account and transfering resources (untrained, kuwal, attack turns) from one account to another.
* Sending ingame resources without receiving a fair value of ingame resources back.
* Paying your officers unreasonably high rates
* Paying your officers unreasonably low rates
* Any action that gives a player an advantage in resources at the cost of a another player.

Fair trades and trades at slightly higher/lower rates are not considered feeding

9) Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account
may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account.

Some of those are tatics used to get ahead, but then again who the hell wants to get ahead of another player in a game.

by Nomad Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:00 am

seaborgium wrote:Anyone happen to notice the rule changes?
2) Feeding (All kinds of sending resources without receiving a fair value of ingame resources is considered feeding)
Read Specific Rules for examples.
7) Some examples of illegal Feeding:
* Sending 100.000 untrained to a friend
* Selling 1 million untrained for real cash
* Buying 1.000 untrained for 50k per untrained.
* Buying an account and transfering resources (untrained, kuwal, attack turns) from one account to another.
* Sending ingame resources without receiving a fair value of ingame resources back.
* Paying your officers unreasonably high rates
* Paying your officers unreasonably low rates
* Any action that gives a player an advantage in resources at the cost of a another player.

Fair trades and trades at slightly higher/lower rates are not considered feeding

9) Accounts can be sold for real cash, but the person who buys an account
may not transfer any resources between his old and new account. He must abandon one of his accounts and use only one account.

Some of those are tatics used to get ahead, but then again who the hell wants to get ahead of another player in a game.

Best to set a certain amount to pay officers with an ingame function and remove the ability to set it manually.

Also define

Fair trades and trades at slightly higher/lower rates are not considered feeding

what the highlighted words mean EXACTLY.

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:03 am

Nomad can I please have my ken doll back, my 2 barbies are getting lonely.

by ian Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:10 am

Technically i m now feeding Dune since i only get a 30k rate for my UU lol.

Anyone want a new active officer? Very Happy

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:21 am

Well this update did do 1 thing, It allows me to stay ahead of everyone else.
Noone can use the tatics I used to get my account. Got to love trading to get a better account.

Christ I should have sold out.

by Lord Ishurue Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:26 am

what is exactly low and what is too high ?

* Paying your officers unreasonably high rates
* Paying your officers unreasonably low rates

The Market Trade UU rate is

1,404,598,350/10,585 = 133k rate

if a minimum rate is going to be in effect it should be no more then 20% smaller or higher then the Market trade UU rate. the small end is for CO's who send UUs back . and the High end is for semi active CO's who nerf their income to support their officer growth .

meaning. 133k X 0.7 = 93,100 minimum officer rate .

max rate . 133k x 1.3 = 172,900 maximum officer rate

considering a CO pays for 20% of their officer's raw and the officer only loses his 10% bonus . the minimum rate is still profitable and the maximum rate is also profitable .

I would like some clarification on what is an excessively high officer rate and what is an excessively low officer rate .

by Jiro Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:20 am

I am still puzzled how I can send resources at a fair rate. The whole thing about sending resources is that I don't get anything in return. Sometimes simply because the other party does not have SS. If they had, I would have used a broker.
Also, given that I pay an above ingame market rate to my officers, I am suddeny feeding? Even feeding the inactive, zero-defence officers that have not logged in in months? Even though I am just paying a good rate that is common on the bulletin board?
I think we need to sit down and discuss what the problem is, before trying to fix something with draconic measures, something that may or may not be broken even.

by Admin Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:21 am

Lord Ishurue wrote:I would like some clarification on what is an excessively high officer rate and what is an excessively low officer rate .

Officer rates will work as follows

The officer gives you 20% of their raw up. For simplicity's sake lets pretend they have 100 up. That's 20 units per day.

The fair rate will be that the officer must receive between 12,5 and 17,5 units worth of resources (worth of resources = rates that will get calculated by the game through actual trades and player interaction).
This DOES NOT mean that you need to set your rate to be within that boundary. You can set less or more however you will then obviously need to make sure that you (and/or your officer) make regular transfers and "tag" (separate function to be added) them to be officer related payments to adjust the final value that has been transferred.
If you fall beyond this boundary for an extended period of time and do not correct it despite an automatic warning, then the difference will be counted as having been done like a direct transfer either from or to your account.
An easy to understand list of what has been sent and how much you need to send to be within the boundary will be added.

So if you have an inactive officer who you pay a silly rate, you will quickly fall below the 12.5 unit limit and then will have all the benefits you receive count as if you were receiving direct transfers from that person to you.
Same story with joining an inactive commander who pays a very high rate.
If you pay a fair rate then whether or not you have an active commander/officer will not make any difference.
You can still switch to an above average rate overnight easily and then set a below average rate for some time after you wake up to balance out how much you send out.
And obviously either side can adjust the total transferred amount by making actual transfers, broker or direct, to the other party.
If you pay too much, all the time, then it will make you reduce your payments and increase chances for others to also get officers.

About the rules, they will be revisited and probably half the stuff will get scratched again because it will get handled by the system, or at least should get handled.

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:24 am

seaborgium wrote:Nomad can I please have my ken doll back, my 2 barbies are getting lonely.

still waiting Mad

by Jiro Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:34 am

Admin wrote:The officer gives you 20% of their raw up. For simplicity's sake lets pretend they have 100 up. That's 20 units per day.

The fair rate will be that the officer must receive between 12,5 and 17,5 units worth of resources (worth of resources = rates that will get calculated by the game through actual trades and player interaction).

So the fair rate is 75% of the UU rate, which is about 175,000. So I should pay 131,250 per UU. Or at least between 109,375 and 153,125 or be marked as either being fed or feeding.
This is substantially different from all officer rates being paid currently and does not take into account the intangible benefits to CO and officers that come with the relationship.

by buhcoreTheGreat Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:43 am

This game is becoming more and more boring, i cant have a high rate commander or inactive officers? You seriously telling that we'll get banned for that ?
Get rid of inactives instead of making such updates

edit fixed ty seaborg

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:49 am

I see a delete link.

by Admin Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:30 pm

Jiro wrote:This is substantially different from all officer rates being paid currently and does not take into account the intangible benefits to CO and officers that come with the relationship.

1) We can also simply remove all financial aspects of the officer/commander relations so that people can focus solely on the intangible benefits
2) You're misunderstanding how the transfer system will be monitored. Lets say you pay a constant 200k which is 30% more than the 153k value. If you get a 10k up bonus from your officers while you yourself have a 20k raw, then your transfer ratio will never go below 10%, since for one third of the units you pay 30% more which averages to all units being bought for 10% higher price each (and considering your income too which is often equal to total up, the ratio will be more around 4-6%). Since the limit before you even get on any watchlist is 20%, you'll be faaar away with the 4-6% you'll be stuck at, let alone into dangerous zone which will be even higher.
Aside from the fact that people who help out a lot with alliance projects can set very low rates to help recover their transfer limit while people who receive a lot of help can set high rates to do the same.

3) I will consider increasing the limit to be from 12.5 units to 22.25 units since the commander gets an extra benefit of being farmed less while the officer might get farmed more, to offset the balance of payments. In which case you could be paying up to 196k without any ill effects whatsoever.

Getting rid of inactives will not solve the issue as people can be legitimately playing actively while still intending to have someone benefit more than they should. Or will just make sure that they make a short login a few times per week to avoid being tagged as inactive.
That and the fact that inactives don't account for an extremely large % of units transferred through officers

by buhcoreTheGreat Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:02 pm

Admin wrote:
Getting rid of inactives will not solve the issue as people can be legitimately playing actively while still intending to have someone benefit more than they should. Or will just make sure that they make a short login a few times per week to avoid being tagged as inactive.
That and the fact that inactives don't account for an extremely large % of units transferred through officers

does that mean you're allowed to buy/sell units at very low rate if its obvious that you're not the same person?
I hate the fact that you cant trade with someone with any rate for any amount of time, because eventually you will be recognised as cheater because you don't balance your ratio.

by Admin Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:50 pm

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:I hate the fact that you cant trade with someone with any rate for any amount of time, because eventually you will be recognised as cheater because you don't balance your ratio.

How is it NOT feeding if you keep selling stuff for cheaper rates to a particular person of your choice that are out of proportion to your personal growth?

Let's clarify, you're against the system being able to tell you on its own warning you that you are feeding others making sure it tells you when to stop instead of one day trying to log in and finding out you got banned?

If you want to buy or sell for very profitable rates then use the public market and find the right opportunities. The trade broker is not the place for that.

by buhcoreTheGreat Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:53 pm

Admin wrote:
Let's clarify, you're against the system being able to tell you on its own warning you that you are feeding others making sure it tells you when to stop instead of one day trying to log in and finding out you got banned?

That's what you said not me, im against the system that bans you with or without warning in the first place.

Admin wrote:
If you want to buy or sell for very profitable rates then use the public market and find the right opportunities. The trade broker is not the place for that.

so because i dont spend 3 hours daily playing aderan wars i will probably never get "the right opportunity" to buy at very profitable rate ? Is your point to make us players spend more time playing aderan wars?
Trade broker is meant to trade resources if i understand word "Trade" correctly, i don't see a reason why someone shouldn't use Trade broker to trade resources, even at more profitable rates.

by Admin Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:15 pm

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:That's what you said not me, im against the system that bans you with or without warning in the first place.

It wont ban anyone, I will.
The point is that the system will warn you if you get into a situation which, if left unchecked, could end up me classifying you as feeding someone and then ban you. So instead of me checking all the time and go so far as to warn people each time I find something suspicious, the system will do it automatically and the player has the chance to correct the mistake.

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:so because i dont spend 3 hours daily playing aderan wars i will probably never get "the right opportunity" to buy at very profitable rate ? Is your point to make us players spend more time playing aderan wars?

If this gets released then more people will prefer to use the private market, especially since the trade broker will still cost 2% of traded resources to use, but the private market will not have any fees whatsoever.
More people => more offers at better rates

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:Trade broker is meant to trade resources if i understand word "Trade" correctly, i don't see a reason why someone shouldn't use Trade broker to trade resources, even at more profitable rates.

If you wish to buy resources paying a very generous rate then you can simply put up a trade to the private market and it is bound to get accepted quickly without any ill effects to your trade ratio, same story applies to selling resources for generous rates.

Trade broker is meant to exchange resources safely. If it's the name that's causing the problem then I'm willing to change it to private broker.
Now about the reason, because I do see one.
Buying at profitable rates from specific people that purposefully chose each other always equals feeding. The difference between legal and illegal feeding is the amount that gets traded. If you trade some resources with the person of your choice at profitable rates then you are very much able to do so without any negative effects that will lead to you suffering any direct consequences, if you do too many for too favorably rates then it is illegal and will lead to consequences.
The system will not change anything about that fact

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:26 pm

Admin wrote:but the private market will not have any fees whatsoever.

This was said where?

by Admin Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:43 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Admin wrote:but the private market will not have any fees whatsoever.

This was said where?

There's a lot of things that haven't been said yet. You guys have been asking questions, I reply to them, if you want an extensive thread as well as a wiki page then you'll need to wait until the update is fully out

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:03 pm

You said 24-36 hours that time has passed.

by Lord Ishurue Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:11 pm

Jiro wrote:
Admin wrote:The officer gives you 20% of their raw up. For simplicity's sake lets pretend they have 100 up. That's 20 units per day.

The fair rate will be that the officer must receive between 12,5 and 17,5 units worth of resources (worth of resources = rates that will get calculated by the game through actual trades and player interaction).
So the fair rate is 75% of the UU rate, which is about 175,000. So I should pay 131,250 per UU. Or at least between 109,375 and 153,125 or be marked as either being fed or feeding.
This is substantially different from all officer rates being paid currently and does not take into account the intangible benefits to CO and officers that come with the relationship.

intangible benefits , what is that ?

can someone please tell me or post what exactly is what is an illegally high rate and what is an illegally low rate ?

until i get an answer im staying with My CO . I still see a lot of people hoarding inactive officers and paying them 30k then claiming to give a % of their units back or kuwal . that is complete bullshit. If your officer is getting farmed a lot then go get the farmer to stop by any means necessary .

If players want a CO who gives them units , then implement self commanding or Go with out a Commander .

by FarleShadow Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:30 pm

I'm lost, on the main server this only covers Private Brokers that are basically one-way transfer of resources with one party gaining and the other not.

And that's it?

by seaborgium Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:44 pm

It seems the Galactic Private Market went form 3 hours to 24 hours.

weee for progress

enjoy eating high prices.

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