Ingame trading - what's allowed

There was a message stating that only fair trades are allowed on main.

News wrote:Until further notice, anything that's not a fair instant trade as far as the game is concerned is considered illegal.

I use the ingame trades for compensating my officers in case I cannot pay their rate momentarily (due to sudden decrease in AE or increase in officer UP or realm alert). Is that allowed?
Is sending resources to support a war effort / help someone rebuild allowed?
What are fair trades? What if I pay someone do something for me, like assaulting someone or leaving someone alone? Or compensating for a failed Kuwal hit?

Compensation is the main concern sine a treaty has just been signed that effects prolly half the active server now. Might need to clarify this.

Issues that I see

• Officer payments
  
• Alliance taxes/Allinace banks
  
• Helping a friend get something.
  
• Hold another players UU or Kuwal
  

seaborgium wrote:Issues that I see

• Officer payments
  
• Alliance taxes/Allinace banks
  
• Helping a friend get something.
  
• Hold another players UU or Kuwal
  

Agreed. I had plans regarding my alliance that were going to start taking place very soon but not anymore This is a huge drawback to all us non cheating players too D:. I can understand why you are doing it but it hurts a lot of unnecessary people as well. Can you post and explain just what is allowed and not allowed?

Only thing that bothers me about this would be if friends came onto this game, the beginning movement is insanely boring and would be nice to boost em past it.

To be honest I think admin will take a common-sense approach.

If he see's an alliance-brokering a player... obviously he's gonna investigate it before he bans you - probably by checking the sent-messages and messages attached to the trade.

I.e. If/ When TIE collects resources its normally done via a alliance-Pm... so admin could see for himself why the brokers are being made and (hopefully) things like alliance projects and taxation = legitimate.

If i had to guess - this isn't aimed at legitimate stuff i.e. such as alliance projects or helping new players get started... but aimed at those who recieve resources for nothing, or who buy large quantities of resources which then does have some effect on the game's balance etc....

Admin could you confirm whether alliance projects/programs/ taxation (i.e. war funds) or helping new players is now illegal or legal?

Thanks

Jiro I bet if you ask the person who complained that someone grew faster then they did, you would find out why admin has stopped all trading.

@seaborgium: I'd like to hear from Admin though what he intends to block and why. And I wouldn't know who that would be.
@Admin: It has serious impact on legitimate player interaction, so there must be very good reasons to prohibit it, and I'd like to know them.
Also, maybe you didn't think about all the legitimate uses for trading and could you narrow down what you do not want to allow?

Jiro wrote:@Admin: It has serious impact on legitimate player interaction, so there must be very good reasons to prohibit it, and I'd like to know them.

Right now, literally everything that's not a fair broker or near instant direct send under fair conditions is forbidden.

Exceptions that will not get you any punishment:
- New player starts out, you send them a few bil kuwal to help quickstart them
- Held kuwal and units can get returned. That's not an issue since it's already in the logs that said person sent you the stuff and you already show up as having received much more resources from that person than you sent.

So by sending the resources back, all you will do is balance out resources going out of vs resources going into your account (you still need to report this through the contact admin, if i check the records and find no such loan though then it will be classed as feeding, duh, along with attempts to lie)

@ Sea, this has very little to do with someone actually complaining (although yes I had complaints), it's something that was in the planning for a while now and I actually want to try this out, not even SGW had it.
Without the complaints this wouldn't have come today instead of in 4 days or a week, but the planning started long before any actual complaints
@ Jiro, I am very well aware of the many legitimate uses where no instant trading is involved, all I can say for now that they will be considered as much as possible
@ Ian, Alliance projects will not be affected by this if they are made in such a way that at the end of the day one receives back as much as they put in one way or the other

For the time being, anything, that's not listed up there in the exceptions, is forbidden.

The aim is to make a system that will require even less watchful eyes on my side (though I promise there won't be any auto-ban scripts), and hopefully a pre-warn system for users themselves when they are found "helping" others more than they should, so that they can stop of their own accord and can save themselves from being removed from the game just because they were ignorant but not inherently mischievous.

I hope I can make progress in "relaxing" the rules by the end of the weekend and eventually having a clear cut list of the what's and how's within the next 2 weeks tops.
This is my top priority now

Admin wrote:

Jiro wrote:@Admin: It has serious impact on legitimate player interaction, so there must be very good reasons to prohibit it, and I'd like to know them.

Right now, literally everything that's not a fair broker or near instant direct send under fair conditions is forbidden.

Exceptions that will not get you any punishment:
- New player starts out, you send them a few bil kuwal to help quickstart them
- Held kuwal and units can get returned. That's not an issue since it's already in the logs that said person sent you the stuff and you already show up as having received much more resources from that person than you sent.

So by sending the resources back, all you will do is balance out resources going out of vs resources going into your account (you still need to report this through the contact admin, if i check the records and find no such loan though then it will be classed as feeding, duh, along with attempts to lie)

@ Sea, this has very little to do with someone actually complaining (although yes I had complaints), it's something that was in the planning for a while now and I actually want to try this out, not even SGW had it.
Without the complaints this wouldn't have come today instead of in 4 days or a week, but the planning started long before any actual complaints
@ Jiro, I am very well aware of the many legitimate uses where no instant trading is involved, all I can say for now that they will be considered as much as possible
@ Ian, Alliance projects will not be affected by this if they are made in such a way that at the end of the day one receives back as much as they put in one way or the other

For the time being, anything, that's not listed up there in the exceptions, is forbidden.

The aim is to make a system that will require even less watchful eyes on my side (though I promise there won't be any auto-ban scripts), and hopefully a pre-warn system for users themselves when they are found "helping" others more than they should, so that they can stop of their own accord and can save themselves from being removed from the game just because they were ignorant but not inherently mischievous.

I hope I can make progress in "relaxing" the rules by the end of the weekend and eventually having a clear cut list of the what's and how's within the next 2 weeks tops.
This is my top priority now

Can you clarify:

What about alliance Taxation? I.e. having each member pay a % of income as a tax a week - the funds which are then stockpiled in banks for use as:

- Emergency War Funds
- A Banking System available to issue loans to the members of the alliance to achieve targets (i.e. 5,800 spy)
- To issue rewards for growth competitions or achieving alliance targets.

Also - what about commander & officer trading?

I.e. I (and many other's) have a deal with my commander whereby I m his officer and he gives a 30k rate per UU.

I return his kuwal he gives me... and in return I get my UU back which he recieves.

This often means the brokers appear to be highly in favour of the player recieving the UU since basically it looks like its 30k rates for UU....

Will this be deemed illegal or legitimate? Since clearly its not:

1.) Feeding
2.) Buying resources or gaining any unfair advantage via external factors outside of the game (i.e. such as buying resources).

Right now, literally everything that's not a fair broker or near instant direct send under fair conditions is forbidden.

@ Admin; Again with respect, can you please be more specific here? as I know a lot of players who do not trade at market rates... what is "a fair broker" & "under fair conditions"? please explain it as you would to a 3 year old... thank you...

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Right now, literally everything that's not a fair broker or near instant direct send under fair conditions is forbidden.

@ Admin; Again with respect, can you please be more specific here? as I know a lot of players who do not trade at market rates... what is "a fair broker" & "under fair conditions"? please explain it as you would to a 3 year old... thank you...

To be honest I think its best if people just ask for specific examples which are relevant to them.

I.e. I ve asked about alliance-taxation since I was giving serious thought to implementing it with TIE along with using the tax's for the above purposes - so hopefully admin can clarify it quickly in that regard

If everyone asks their specific concerns and admin clarifies it then thing's will become a lot clearer very quickly... and if anyone is in doubt... its simple - ask lol.

Another thing I d like to find out about is compensation - whether its compensating for a breach of a alliance policy (i.e. player A compensating player B) or compensating for some other reason i.e. maybe massing a inactive and finding out they are active - or if your caught sabbing someone and offer to return compensation in exchange for not getting nuked etc... - all of which are past examples which various players have done.

Would such brokers now be deemed illegal/unfair?

ian wrote:Can i clarify:
What about alliance Taxation?

For now, that is clearly not on the exceptions list

ian wrote:Also - what about commander & officer trading?

Again, not on the exceptions list.

ian wrote:Will this be deemed illegal or legitimate?

The intention of the system is to be able to easily determine what total benefit a commander and each of their officers have received from said relation and the application of various alliance programs should, by and large remain unaffected as long as they work in a fair fashion (that is, temporary reinvestment of funds for more efficient growth and consolidation of power).
So taking the commander example. If I open someone's stats and see the officer and commander shared the profits then it's ok.

Neither SGW nor dune have had anything comparable as it is a very complex system however I am confident it is doable and with enough fine tuning it will become a powerful tool in making sure no one is ever worried about other people getting advantages as well as helping users themselves avoid getting "unknowingly" into trouble

edit: compensation, clearly not on the exceptions list.
Fair trades = look at private market
"instant" trade = doesnt necesarily have to be a broker, can be a direct send, as long as there is not more than several hours in between the sendings

So alliance taxation for the purposes of gathering a emergency war fund = not exempted ... therefore if it were to be implemented those receiving the brokers would be liable to get banned?

I.e. if I were to tax TIE and gather... say 30billion a week and then store that in various leader's banks for a day when we come under attack/ have to mobilise quickly - so basically the funds would just sit there and accumulate untill they are one day needed.

I know Mujengen, World Republic and various other alliances would like a clear answer to this Q lol - since they also used to do the same/ probably were considering doing the same

Thanks

ian wrote:So alliance taxation for the purposes of gathering a emergency war fund = not exempted ... therefore if it were to be implemented those receiving the brokers would be liable to get banned?

for now it's not exempted, however in the final setting I hope and wish to see it be allowed.

Admin wrote:

ian wrote:So alliance taxation for the purposes of gathering a emergency war fund = not exempted ... therefore if it were to be implemented those receiving the brokers would be liable to get banned?

for now it's not exempted, however in the final setting I hope and wish to see it be allowed.

Ok

Thanks for clarifying.

I think a better execution and explanation on your part prior to announcement would have helped tremendously.


Also, does this now mean there is NO cross server trading allowed anymore?

And NO more $$ trades of any nature other then a complete account buy? well other then buying with $$ from you alone?

Admin wrote:So taking the commander example. If I open someone's stats and see the officer and commander shared the profits then it's ok.

I just want to clarify...

If my commander pays me a lower rate and then sends back a fair percent of my UP each week at a regular time, we won't get banned?

For example if a commander was to pay someone a minimum rate. The officer has a UP of 20k. At the end of the week the commander will direct send 20,000 * 15% * 7 days = 21,000 UU.

I am one of the people that has an officer for the UP gain rather then the income gain. I am payed a low rate but receive the extra UU that my UP generates by having a CO. This is fair because the CO still gets 5% of the UU and he pays 35k per UU. which 35,000 min rate * 4 = 140,000 per UU

So much theater ... I am very sure that this "update" was made by admin on Ian's suggestion. He saw that the players who spend huge amounts of $ leave his alliance: SA47, Seaborgium, Vesper, etc and he wanted to stop them. But little people know that Ian has multi-accounts... a proof could be found in my - now deleted - account where in the beginning of the game, long time ago, when Ian joined the game, he was fed by accounts... the previous owner of my account has sent him insane amounts of units, ats and kuwal, without getting anything back... and Ian did posted somewhere on this forum that he doesn't spent $ on the game... that is probably a proof - if admin can recover the account. But admin doesn't care if Ian cheated because he goes hand in hand with Ian... bleah. I'm quite sure that Ian doesn't cheat anymore, because he is large and doesn't need to, but he also doesn't want the $ spenders to go too far ahead of him, therefore this update.

There's so much wrong with that post peacedevil, I dont even know where to point out the huge cracks in that logic.

Is the general consensus that I can simply delete said post without bothering to comment on it?

Vesper wrote:I just want to clarify...

If my commander pays me a lower rate and then sends back a fair percent of my UP each week at a regular time, we won't get banned?

Admin wrote:

ian wrote:Also - what about commander & officer trading?

Again, not on the exceptions list.

Nomad wrote:I think a better execution and explanation on your part prior to announcement would have helped tremendously.

Also, does this now mean there is NO cross server trading allowed anymore?

And NO more $$ trades of any nature other then a complete account buy? well other then buying with $$ from you alone?

For now

I sure hope alliance taxation is going to be allowed cause this ain't cool :s

why all the fuss, you can solve this very simply,

" Vesper wrote:I just want to clarify...

If my commander pays me a lower rate and then sends back a fair percent of my UP each week at a regular time, we won't get banned? "

it's simple, take away the option where the commander on what the commander can pick to pay his officers, cause if theirs an option there, then what ever his choice is right and not wrong.

" Admin wrote:

ian wrote:Also - what about commander & officer trading?


Again, not on the exceptions list. "

if the commander can't trade with his officer what ever he feels like, then remove that option, stop blaming the commanders when there's a option for him or her to trade with the officer what ever they want.

Nomad wrote:I think a better execution and explanation on your part prior to announcement would have helped tremendously.

Also, does this now mean there is NO cross server trading allowed anymore?

And NO more $$ trades of any nature other then a complete account buy? well other then buying with $$ from you alone?

Admin wrote:

For now.

again if you don't want people doing it remove that option so they can't, leaving that option makes it your your fault admin if anyone uses it, remove the traps that will get people in trouble for your mastakes.



see its easy solving problems, got any more? just give me a call and i'll solve them.

significant progress has been made on commander/officer transfers almost all details of that part are ready, once it is ready for online execution , this part of transfers will become permitted again

PeaceDevil wrote:So much theater ... I am very sure that this "update" was made by admin on Ian's suggestion. He saw that the players who spend huge amounts of $ leave his alliance: SA47, Seaborgium, Vesper, etc and he wanted to stop them. But little people know that Ian has multi-accounts... a proof could be found in my - now deleted - account where in the beginning of the game, long time ago, when Ian joined the game, he was fed by accounts... the previous owner of my account has sent him insane amounts of units, ats and kuwal, without getting anything back... and Ian did posted somewhere on this forum that he doesn't spent $ on the game... that is probably a proof - if admin can recover the account. But admin doesn't care if Ian cheated because he goes hand in hand with Ian... bleah. I'm quite sure that Ian doesn't cheat anymore, because he is large and doesn't need to, but he also doesn't want the $ spenders to go too far ahead of him, therefore this update.

Congratulations. Your going to get massed if you still play the game.

Truly pathetic attempt at slandering someone without any truth behind it at all, for no apparent reason given i actually considered you a friend....