Re: Maximum tech advantage, protecting small players against big farmers

by Nomad Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:22 am

I'm with Kong, I'd rather do a change and be done, not drag it out over months and months.

IF the change is to even be done at all.

by Kenzu Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:18 pm

ghyogod wrote:the actual system gives players the opportunity to develop economical or technological. please do understand that changeing this would have accounts re-made and make wars not as appealing because the obvoius choice would be to go for income now
going for a 0.1% system would make this game boring.
imagine paying 2 trilion kuwal for losing 5 soldiers less then the enemy?

I was talking only about farming.
You might want to re-read the name of the topic and the first post in this thread.
If the techs are same for massing then I am fine with that.

I want that players still need only 5-10% population in defense to have safe kuwal when logging in 2-3 times a day.
If players can be massed very effectively in wars, it's less of a problem.

Most important problem is that small accounts will need 10-15% in defense and if they want a balanced military (same % in each stat, they must end up with half population in military to stop farming, which is absurd)

by seaborgium Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:11 pm

It doesn't matter if its 300% vs 120% or if its 110.3% vs 100%
still means that the older bigger players have the same upper hand.

by Admin Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:03 pm

seaborgium wrote:It doesn't matter if its 300% vs 120% or if its 110.3% vs 100%
still means that the older bigger players have the same upper hand.

ah trust me, there's a big difference

by Kingofshinobis1 Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:51 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Admin wrote:There's several good arguments for and against this issue.

As kenzu put it, this problem didn't exist when say people had 160% going vs 110%. But when you get now 290% going vs 110%, that might be a problem.

On the other hand:
1) Tech costs double every 100 levels.
At 300% the cost is at 160 Bil per level, getting to 200% only costs around 334 bil in total (ignoring race bonuses), getting to 300% costs 4.7 Tril
2) Each upgrade is less efficient than the one before.
Going from 100% to 200% means you doubled your power, but going from 200% to 300% is only 1.5 times improvement in efficiency (200 x 1.5 = 300). So a tech difference of say 30% is worlds apart when you have 100% vs 130% or when you have 250% vs 280%

In hindsight I realize I should have made them give only one 10th the benefit (so 100.1% instead of 101% after 1 upgrade). Since originally I wanted the techs to be an additional factor in power, not the main force behind it.
I (falsely) assumed giving it a cumulative gain in cost would be enough to slow down its growth.

Would I get stoned for resetting everyones techs and returning the kuwal and redoing the system?
Almost certainly, unless it's a gradual change over several months so that people can adapt to it, since many definitely made upgrades and expenses based on expecting the tech system to stay as it should.

But redoing the tech system to be sustainable long term would be a better idea than to start making weird limiters.
Techs should have been something like personal bonus. They can give you the edge. But not single handedly win a war.
(main point being that even if you're big, doesn't mean you can kill stuff more efficiently, it's already enough that you have bigger up and more income and more soldiers)

I wont lie & say I understand why this discussion even exists, but if you are gonna do it, then do it & git 'er done as they say...

If that happens then I want all my kuwal back i have put into my techs as I will not be putting any of my 5.5tril kuwal into it.

by seaborgium Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:56 pm

He said he would be giving it all back.

I would either just buy UU, or just sink it all into UP.

by Kingofshinobis1 Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:04 pm

seaborgium wrote:It doesn't matter if its 300% vs 120% or if its 110.3% vs 100%
still means that the older bigger players have the same upper hand.

technically in this case it would be 300% vs 120% or 130% vs 102% and yes the 300% vs the 120% would be considerably stronger (by almost 200% vs the 27%) this is outrageous. i did not spend 5tril kuwal to have my 10x the amount i thought i was getting >.> im sure im not the only one who feels this way

by Admin Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:09 pm

yeh that was kinda my other point sea

Lower tech advantage would simply mean more people buy uu's so bigger armies, uu costs driven sky high, etc.

by seaborgium Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:17 pm

TBH I am trying to avoid the I will quit after this. I can understand the change but thats every game.
I also don't see too many new players joining the game.
Sure the IDs get longer however the ranks don't change.

by kingkongfan1 Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:57 pm

Admin wrote:
Would I get stoned for resetting everyones techs and returning the kuwal and redoing the system?

After having discussions with several players, I now understand the need for this... I would also like to say again, if this is gonna get done, then do it & get it over with, none o this gradual stuff ok...

by Kingofshinobis1 Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:45 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Admin wrote:
Would I get stoned for resetting everyones techs and returning the kuwal and redoing the system?

After having discussions with several players, I now understand the need for this... I would also like to say again, if this is gonna get done, then do it & get it over with, none o this gradual stuff ok...

then explain the reasoning for everyone else to see as well

by Admin Sun May 08, 2011 2:20 pm

ok, to clarify

"Tech rework" at least my part about making the techs more expensive or whatever or decreasing the bonus per upgrade will not happen.

main reason is that it keeps uu prices way much lower than they would have been otherwise

by Kingofshinobis1 Sun May 08, 2011 5:06 pm

Ok now that that is out of the way, what do you have in mind now? Something we can discuss?

by kingkongfan1 Sun May 08, 2011 8:30 pm

Kingofshinobis1 wrote:Ok now that that is out of the way, what do you have in mind now? Something we can discuss?

what is there to discuss at this point, I was under the impression that Admins post pretty much ended any discussion in this thread, (either for or against kenzu's idea)... of course then again what do I know?

by seaborgium Sun May 08, 2011 8:54 pm

Admin wrote:ok, to clarify

"Tech rework" at least my part about making the techs more expensive or whatever or decreasing the bonus per upgrade will not happen.

main reason is that it keeps uu prices way much lower than they would have been otherwise

If you don't mind what changed your mind?

by Admin Sun May 08, 2011 9:00 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Kingofshinobis1 wrote:Ok now that that is out of the way, what do you have in mind now? Something we can discuss?

what is there to discuss at this point, I was under the impression that Admins post pretty much ended any discussion in this thread, (either for or against kenzu's idea)... of course then again what do I know?

ok, no i explained wrong.
I pitched the idea of reworking techs to only give a tenth of the bonus they give now, so that their added power is comparable to the personal bonus.

however that would drive uu prices up. so i'm leaving that idea.
kenzu's idea is to limit how much benefit you can gather when farming others. so that new players aren't forced to build 20% of their account into defense because people with 300+% total attack boost can farm them relentlessly

by Kingofshinobis1 Sun May 08, 2011 10:32 pm

Admin wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote:
Kingofshinobis1 wrote:Ok now that that is out of the way, what do you have in mind now? Something we can discuss?

what is there to discuss at this point, I was under the impression that Admins post pretty much ended any discussion in this thread, (either for or against kenzu's idea)... of course then again what do I know?
ok, no i explained wrong.
I pitched the idea of reworking techs to only give a tenth of the bonus they give now, so that their added power is comparable to the personal bonus.

however that would drive uu prices up. so i'm leaving that idea.
kenzu's idea is to limit how much benefit you can gather when farming others. so that new players aren't forced to build 20% of their account into defense because people with 300+% total attack boost can farm them relentlessly

technically they aren't as they have less income to protect.

by Admin Mon May 09, 2011 1:04 am

because it's hard for a new player to have 1 bil out after 7 hours?

700k farmers and some commander income

by kingkongfan1 Mon May 09, 2011 4:03 am

Admin wrote:because it's hard for a new player to have 1 bil out after 7 hours?

700k farmers and some commander income

this is just my opinion here, but...

1) 1 billion is not incentive enough for me to consider hitting it, especially when the attacker takes several times more damage that the player being hit does...
2) my question is, what is wrong with building a defense? by the time I had 700,000 farmers, my defense would protect 3 times that many...
3) its called income control, you shouldn't have that number of income units, producing that amount of income, in that length of time, unless you A) have the defense to protect it, B) are able to bank it in a timely manner, or C) are just trying to make a farming target out of yourself...

I understood the need to rework the tech system, what I do not understand is what is the point of building techs if you cannot use the full potential of the techs against any player regardless of size?

I say if you are not gonna reset/rework the tech system, then leave it alone, let this go for now, & in the future if major issues arise, then we can take another look at this...

as I said at the beginning this is just my opinion...

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