TOC & TIE Peace Treaty Discussion

So I think that we can all drop the Castravete dispute. I do not see the relevance.

What you ToC should be saying is.

ToC wrote:We hate TIE and will do everything we can to destroy them because they used our own tactics against us and it worked in their favor.

We hate TIE and will do everything we can to destroy them because they used our own tactics against us and it worked in their favor.







joking

Hi Ian, I'll deny that we planned to topple TIE from the outset of the previous war, like you claim we did.
There was heightened mobilisation from the moment that people in Mujengan and WR were being sabbed/assassinated. I've already let this know to Seaborgium, who is the TIE diplomat. Why are you still repeating these allegations here, when you know the statements to be untrue?

Jiro wrote:Hi Ian, I'll deny that we planned to topple TIE from the outset of the previous war, like you claim we did.
There was heightened mobilisation from the moment that people in Mujengan and WR were being sabbed/assassinated. I've already let this know to Seaborgium, who is the TIE diplomat. Why are you still repeating these allegations here, when you know the statements to be untrue?

Because others within the T.O.C leadership circle disagree with your assessment of TOC planning to topple TIE as being untrue - and right now I trust those people a LOT more than yourself (no disrespect meant). You also forget I personally saw with my own eyes the suggestion by LI several months ago to ally with WR to confront and topple TIE... and what has happened in the months since? FIRE has allied with WR & Emperor's - and tensions have only gone worse & worse leading to this war (a war which *could* have resulted in TIE's annihilation if we were less resilient).

Basically:

- TOC repeatedly claims the plan laid out by LI several months ago was done in at the height of emotions without clear carm-headed thinking. Yet you ve since followed through with the basic principles of that plan (seek allies, increasingly confronting The Imperium causing tensions to spiral out of control) over the past several months (remembering the plan was a long-term one).

- Some of TOC's own leadership have in private conversations revealed the extent to which TOC has followed through with the plan and been planning a confrontation with TIE for a LONG time... just war started a fair bit sooner than planned (you hoped to have Pohida on your-side as well).

Vesper wrote:So I think that we can all drop the Castravete dispute. I do not see the relevance.

What you ToC should be saying is.

ToC wrote:We hate TIE and will do everything we can to destroy them because they used our own tactics against us and it worked in their favor.

hi

i'm flwpwr and i'm a TIE haterholic

*(chorus) hi flwpwr*

i would like to found a twelve-step program as a set of guiding principles outlining a course of action for recovery from addiction, compulsion, or other behavioral problems, such as hating TIE

*people applause*

ian wrote:

Jiro wrote:Hi Ian, I'll deny that we planned to topple TIE from the outset of the previous war, like you claim we did.
There was heightened mobilisation from the moment that people in Mujengan and WR were being sabbed/assassinated. I've already let this know to Seaborgium, who is the TIE diplomat. Why are you still repeating these allegations here, when you know the statements to be untrue?

Because others within the T.O.C leadership circle disagree with your assessment of TOC planning to topple TIE as being untrue - and right now I trust those people a LOT more than yourself (no disrespect meant). You also forget I personally saw with my own eyes the suggestion by LI several months ago to ally with WR to confront and topple TIE... and what has happened in the months since? FIRE has allied with WR & Emperor's - and tensions have only gone worse & worse leading to this war (a war which *could* have resulted in TIE's annihilation if we were less resilient).

Basically:

- TOC repeatedly claims the plan laid out by LI several months ago was done in at the height of emotions without clear carm-headed thinking. Yet you ve since followed through with the basic principles of that plan (seek allies, increasingly confronting The Imperium causing tensions to spiral out of control) over the past several months (remembering the plan was a long-term one).

- Some of TOC's own leadership have in private conversations revealed the extent to which TOC has followed through with the plan and been planning a confrontation with TIE for a LONG time... just war started a fair bit sooner than planned (you hoped to have Pohida on your-side as well).

Funny, the thing you saw (I cannot retrieve the post as you're well aware), can only be described as a plan to topple TIE using a lot of imagination, but you take the leap from a single forum post to a long term plan to war on TIE within very few sentences never the less. Thanks for the brevity by the way.
The post was made in the context of TIE declaring every member can have and enforce his own farming policy with the blessing of TIE. I asked whether TIE would get involved if an alliance responded to a TIE member massing someone over a personal farming policy by massing that person, even if the person doing the farming acted according to TIE's farming policy, and you answered that TIE would expect others to just let their members be massed.
Suggesting to contact other people who may be miffed at this and may ally with you when things get out of hand, which they are bound to do in that case, is not all that shocking and certainly not a long term plan to topple or destroy TIE. I consider it part of diplomacy to get TIE to reconcider its views.

Then again, my question was why you stated that no TOC leader denied the existence of such plans, when you knew that I denied them. Apparently you don't see my denial as proof that the plans were not there, but that is not a reason to say the existence of these plans was never denied.

jiro after all this time you still believe ian listens to reason?
I gave up, but at least no one can say I haven't tried

The 'Topple TIE' wasn't from what I can tell very known cept to a few players IE Lord Ish and Kenzu, and maybe 1 or 2 others.
TBH to both Jiro and Aworon, I don't think you 2 would have gone along with it if you had be talked to about it, but I maybe misjudging the 2 of you.

I'm very confident I would have known about any "toppling" plans.
That's because emperors wouldn't have offered support if there was even so much as an ounce of suspicion

I was very much "in the loop" and know what got planned and what not.
not a single time was "annihilation" or anything remotely close a topic of discussion

No offense Aworon and Jiro but WR posts send out did indirectly claim TIE was a enemy a problem and should be removed from the game.

And many times told we need to be better than them we need to out do them.

That was before the second war. So even tho i werent a top guy I will say some of the messages send out do directly and indirectly back then sound like TIE needed to go. I am not for TIE nor for ToC in this matter as i see this problem a result of both sides being Morrons.

And another fact which ToC has a problem accepting i have had my arguments with Kenzu over this is the fact for this war to happen for these problems to be seen does it take 2 to tango.

ToC behavour even if it was not meant like that looked to TIE as you where doing what they feared make ready to war them. TIE listen to half trues and full trues plus lies as well as ToC did the same. Basicly both parties directly, or indirectly wanted a war or acted like they did and therefore we have a war it is all down to the fact both sides started and reacted.

As all knows for any action will there always be a reaction for a war to come or go will it take 2 parties no party is in the end more innocent than the others in this case. There is cases where one party is the agressor because they can and the other party part of this 2 tango is that they are easy prey to be massed and sat on for military experince or war experince if you will, Another reason this game has problems alliances are WAR EXPERINCES WHORES it will create problems and wars over time, I know of people making ready to mass big guys just because they need the experince.

So all in all your both the reason for the war and you both need to sit down and accept it and then move on forget the damn past and solve your issues and stop deffending who was worst and what your both equal worse like it or not.

Lol,nimras...are you biting the hand that feed you all this time(it's a romanian old saying:P), no offense, but while you were WR members you shared the same ideas and now you are switching your point just because vesper sustains them!?...wtf?...and you are wrong, very wrong...we never saw TIE as a threat...they always saw us as enemies because we were farming them (because they were Tie and they weren't banking, 'cause they were TIE, that's why they weren't banking...got the point, no?)...so, they invented all sort of rules and farming policies, pretty much impossible to respect and even if you would try they would have massed you anyway...and even if we saw them as a threat, they proved us that we were right...just look how the war started...do you find it fair, or what?...so stop sustaining them just because you got scared and ran away in their back yard...you are not being fair.Aworon has a good point and stop pointing your finger on someone 'cause even if this peace treaty moves on: MARK MY WORDS: Tie will start massing again in max 3 months;)...you know why: farming;)

Nimras wrote:No offense Aworon and Jiro but WR posts send out did indirectly claim TIE was a enemy a problem and should be removed from the game.

And many times told we need to be better than them we need to out do them.

That was before the second war. So even tho i werent a top guy I will say some of the messages send out do directly and indirectly back then sound like TIE needed to go. I am not for TIE nor for ToC in this matter as i see this problem a result of both sides being Morrons.

And another fact which ToC has a problem accepting i have had my arguments with Kenzu over this is the fact for this war to happen for these problems to be seen does it take 2 to tango.

ToC behavour even if it was not meant like that looked to TIE as you where doing what they feared make ready to war them. TIE listen to half trues and full trues plus lies as well as ToC did the same. Basicly both parties directly, or indirectly wanted a war or acted like they did and therefore we have a war it is all down to the fact both sides started and reacted.

As all knows for any action will there always be a reaction for a war to come or go will it take 2 parties no party is in the end more innocent than the others in this case. There is cases where one party is the agressor because they can and the other party part of this 2 tango is that they are easy prey to be massed and sat on for military experince or war experince if you will, Another reason this game has problems alliances are WAR EXPERINCES WHORES it will create problems and wars over time, I know of people making ready to mass big guys just because they need the experince.

So all in all your both the reason for the war and you both need to sit down and accept it and then move on forget the damn past and solve your issues and stop deffending who was worst and what your both equal worse like it or not.

good point
@cas it has nothing to do with who is what side. it means that both sides are the reason for this

i don't deny this magnus but i thing honestly think that TIE was looking for it more than us...excuse me if I'm wrong;)

castravete wrote:Lol,nimras...are you biting the hand that feed you all this time(it's a romanian old saying:P), no offense, but while you were WR members you shared the same ideas and now you are switching your point just because vesper sustains them!?...wtf?...and you are wrong, very wrong...we never saw TIE as a threat...they always saw us as enemies because we were farming them (because they were Tie and they weren't banking, 'cause they were TIE, that's why they weren't banking...got the point, no?)...so, they invented all sort of rules and farming policies, pretty much impossible to respect and even if you would try they would have massed you anyway...and even if we saw them as a threat, they proved us that we were right...just look how the war started...do you find it fair, or what?...so stop sustaining them just because you got scared and ran away in their back yard...you are not being fair.Aworon has a good point and stop pointing your finger on someone 'cause even if this peace treaty moves on: MARK MY WORDS: Tie will start massing again in max 3 months;)...you know why: farming;)

Lol Escuse me VESPER? Why should i listen to him when i am not in his alliance nor was i ever speaking about TIE and ToC with him.

Fact is I was in WR and if you damn recall the messages send out you would know i am right.

M8 get your fact right I aren't scared of TIE i am scared of no one and i never will be. You should really start to get your facts straight and by proving with this post yet again why i look forward to play with your account when this war is over and here is another fact i have gotten no help with my account what help i got was when i got massed during the war, else what i have done on this account is 100% done by my self..

M8 if i was scared you think i would dare to tell Kenzu when he is wrong i did it when i was in WR and I still do now as we speak. As well as i dare to tell Kenzu when he is right.

The fact is ToC lured TIE into thinking we would bring war i have so many proves of that and here is another fact i have not to listen to TIE and what they write to know that my point i was making which you missed is correct. This war started because ToC and TIE did their part you say you farmed whell over farming is a good point but the other point is that if you read your ingame letters they did sound like we was peparing for war i do not go around saying anything about TIE side i don't care.

Honestely was i in TIE posistion i would properly with have hit first if they got the messages i have in my inbox send by WR leadership. Thats a fact was it my alliance and did i get messages like that i would hit first and thats my style.

The fact is I don't se any side as the one who has something to be on the high horse. TIE has done their part of this war and their part to start it and their part to keep it running, But so has ToC no side is better than the other and heck if you must know I do not side with any of them because as far i can see when i read true the topics and when i read every single meeting they have had since the war started: Ohh yes CAS i get copies of their talks and i have read them. I see that both sides bitch over past, bitch over a few things that in my honest oppinion is stupid instead of just forgetting the past and look at why they should make peace now and find a commen ground then they keep going around the same issue again and again. Another fact is your not part of ToC and you still fight in this war and ToC keeps wanting to make sure your safe when the war ends thats wrong to your not ToC your a player stupid enough to continue massing and therefore is a valid target and not only that you send insulting messages with a bad temper really bad behavour i mean honestly your not worthy of being in any alliance until you know to keep your cool and play the game and play the politics.

As i said once and i will say it again because i dont think you read my posts, THEY ARE BOTH TO BLAME NO SIDE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Now thats the truth and thats how it will be until both sides starts accepting that and start talking on the same ground and lvl.

Nimras ... I can't believe what I'm about to say - but man I'm impressed and I agree with you.

I m not gonna waste anymore time dealing with the whole "TOC toppling TIE" or "TIE being paranoid/ making thing's up" perspectives any longer (depending on which side your on).

I ll cut straight to the chase:

- Castravate Issue - Need's to be sorted.

- Farming Policy Issue: Lord Ishurue suggested to me that BOTH TOC & TIE adopt a similar farming policy - that where a player has 10hours+income out they can be farmed. Only requirement would be (though I ll need to clarify this bit with LI) that the actual attack for kuwal be profitable (i.e. any profit).

- Assassination/ Sabbing issue: The person who's been sabbed needs to prove they ve been sabbed/assassinated (i.e. become the officer of the other alliances leader). Once this is done both power's send over "ambassadors" to the other alliance to temporarily check the logs to confirm neither side is responsible for the sabbing/assassinations.

Only Issue I have with this is hidden alliances. I.e. sending ambassadors = renders the whole point of being hidden irrelevant. As such a hidden alliance *shouldn't* be bound by the above (its worth remembering if a Hidden alliance is hidden it also can't enforce a farming policy effectively - so THATS the disadvantage & price of being hidden)

- Personal War's issue: If both players involved in a personal war agree to a personal war... the respective alliances stay out.

If one player warns the other continuing their conduct will lead to war, and the other player ignores that warning and a war therefore results... both sides should stay out.

If one player warns the other player continuing their conduct will lead to war, the other player should respect the warning WHILE contacting the alliance-leadership of their respective alliance who can discuss/ resolve the issue with the other alliance-leadership ASAP - avoiding the war.

Failure to contact the alliance leadership about a issue which could result in war means your taking matters into your own hands... and if you do that then to be honest you shouldn't expect alliance-support. If there's a problem... contact the leadership lol

- If one player masses/ sabbs/ assassinates etc... another without warning.... then the alliance should be free to intervene.

- Abusive messages = good justification for war.

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Now... can someone in TOC confirm to me whether or not the above looks "ok" (baring in mind its merely a set of notes to try and restart this discussion)?

curumo wrote:Nimras ... I can't believe what I'm about to say - but man I'm impressed and I agree with you.

Hmm now thats makes me wonder why can't you believe your about to say that as far i know we have no outstandinds with eachother.

And thank you for your kind word.

ian wrote:- Castravate Issue - Need's to be sorted.

M8 no offense but since Castravata is not part of ToC anymore and he is in another alliance now as far I see it as i also see the same when it comes to Vesper its not something that should be talked about in the peace.

Castravata is a issue for TIE only which it should be and your only concern about him should be left for you to deside no one else.
Vesper is a issue as far i can read for ToC and should be for ToC concerns only not for you or TIE thats how it should be.

Now as far i see it you both sides should not try to help the other but just get the talks over with without all the bull i know there is.

Castra issue needs to get sorted because kenzu and ishurue said so.
Hence why ian is including it in the list nimras

Nimras wrote:As i said once and i will say it again because i dont think you read my posts, THEY ARE BOTH TO BLAME NO SIDE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Now thats the truth and thats how it will be until both sides starts accepting that and start talking on the same ground and lvl.

We could have saved ourselves at least 20 pages of discussions would more people understand that
Sadly the message reaches the intended recipients very slowly

in what matter is the castravete issue to be restored???...for real: I just tried to point the fact that two can play your game,Ian and that's all...See: in the moment I got bitchy you all jumped on me(Ohhh!He got peace and rejoined the war.Ohhh!How could he!?).Well you see, Ian all that you did was above all I did(stealing names, massing while I was asking for peace, sabbing our players after they farmed you and after you were farming them twice a day, etc. etc.).If you don't seem to realize in your big pride that you still have to pay for all that you did.I'm willing to negociate peace with you even if you don't inspire me no trust and even if I know that for you a 5 day ceasefire means a 3 day backstabbing mass...ok?...Don't worry, Nimras, about my alliance: just ask yourself who leads Mujengan and who helps him...ok;)?...so, Ian, don't worry all peace treaties have to get approbation so stop wasting your time on the castravete issue.

aworon wrote:Castra issue needs to get sorted because kenzu and ishurue said so.
Hence why ian is including it in the list nimras

Nimras wrote:As i said once and i will say it again because i dont think you read my posts, THEY ARE BOTH TO BLAME NO SIDE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Now thats the truth and thats how it will be until both sides starts accepting that and start talking on the same ground and lvl.

We could have saved ourselves at least 20 pages of discussions would more people understand that
Sadly the message reaches the intended recipients very slowly

Lord no offense but Ishuru and Kenzu should not worry about a player not in their alliance thats stupid as well as far i can see Ian does not worry about Vesper as he is not in his alliance.

castravete wrote:in what matter is the castravete issue to be restored???...for real: I just tried to point the fact that two can play your game,Ian and that's all...See: in the moment I got bitchy you all jumped on me(Ohhh!He got peace and rejoined the war.Ohhh!How could he!?).Well you see, Ian all that you did was above all I did(stealing names, massing while I was asking for peace, sabbing our players after they farmed you and after you were farming them twice a day, etc. etc.).If you don't seem to realize in your big pride that you still have to pay for all that you did.I'm willing to negociate peace with you even if you don't inspire me no trust and even if I know that for you a 5 day ceasefire means a 3 day backstabbing mass...ok?...Don't worry, Nimras, about my alliance: just ask yourself who leads Mujengan and who helps him...ok;)?...so, Ian, don't worry all peace treaties have to get approbation so stop wasting your time on the castravete issue.

Lol castra your just something i don't see why you should as i last checked is in TG get a defense from ToC your not a ToC player no matter what and therefore not a ToC problem if they wanna defend you then as far i am concerned just gave me another reason why i aren't there you see Cas your one of the reasons i left ToC and ToC are showing me even more reasons by defending you why i should not come back and why i made the right choice. Now please shush and let TIE and ToC work the problems and please let them stop defeinding you as you should do it your self and get a surrender or peace with TIE alone it should not be ToC jobs and actually you called me a coward as far i can see your the coward you hide behind ToC lol.

castravete wrote:in what matter is the castravete issue to be restored???...for real: I just tried to point the fact that two can play your game,Ian and that's all...See: in the moment I got bitchy you all jumped on me(Ohhh!He got peace and rejoined the war.Ohhh!How could he!?).Well you see, Ian all that you did was above all I did(stealing names, massing while I was asking for peace, sabbing our players after they farmed you and after you were farming them twice a day, etc. etc.).If you don't seem to realize in your big pride that you still have to pay for all that you did.I'm willing to negociate peace with you even if you don't inspire me no trust and even if I know that for you a 5 day ceasefire means a 3 day backstabbing mass...ok?...Don't worry, Nimras, about my alliance: just ask yourself who leads Mujengan and who helps him...ok;)?...so, Ian, don't worry all peace treaties have to get approbation so stop wasting your time on the castravete issue.

OH put a lid on it. Scheesch you just carry on and on and on.

People start sorting things out. I enjoy this war because it is fun, but I am tired of the finger pointing. If you guys have personal grudges then go on a 1 on 1 and not a alliance beat em up. Hell there are players that probably quit because of this

i know 3 that deleted there accounts, 5 that quit and 2 that sold there accounts.

None are from TIE either.

aworon wrote:

Nimras wrote:As i said once and i will say it again because i dont think you read my posts, THEY ARE BOTH TO BLAME NO SIDE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Now thats the truth and thats how it will be until both sides starts accepting that and start talking on the same ground and lvl.

We could have saved ourselves at least 20 pages of discussions would more people understand that
Sadly the message reaches the intended recipients very slowly

Didn't Ian say multiple times that TIE did their part to start the war and all he wanted was for ToC to admit that they did their part too? Yet ToC keeps denying that they did anything wrong.

Now this question is directed back a few pages. Has TIE ever ganged up on an individual player for breaking a farming policy? As far as I know they haven't, but I was MIA for a bit and may have missed a bit of what happened. From what I understand server wide if someone breaks a farming policy the leader of the alliance that the person is from is contacted and some sort of payment is arranged. No matter which alliance you are in. If you break a policy you end up paying some fee, I do not think any alliance has actually followed through on the "we mass you if you break the policy" threats.

ian wrote:I m not gonna waste anymore time dealing with the whole "TOC toppling TIE" or "TIE being paranoid/ making thing's up" perspectives any longer (depending on which side your on).

I ll cut straight to the chase:

- Castravate Issue - Need's to be sorted.

- Farming Policy Issue: Lord Ishurue suggested to me that BOTH TOC & TIE adopt a similar farming policy - that where a player has 10hours+income out they can be farmed. Only requirement would be (though I ll need to clarify this bit with LI) that the actual attack for kuwal be profitable (i.e. any profit).

- Assassination/ Sabbing issue: The person who's been sabbed needs to prove they ve been sabbed/assassinated (i.e. become the officer of the other alliances leader). Once this is done both power's send over "ambassadors" to the other alliance to temporarily check the logs to confirm neither side is responsible for the sabbing/assassinations.

Only Issue I have with this is hidden alliances. I.e. sending ambassadors = renders the whole point of being hidden irrelevant. As such a hidden alliance *shouldn't* be bound by the above (its worth remembering if a Hidden alliance is hidden it also can't enforce a farming policy effectively - so THATS the disadvantage & price of being hidden)

- Personal War's issue: If both players involved in a personal war agree to a personal war... the respective alliances stay out.

If one player warns the other continuing their conduct will lead to war, and the other player ignores that warning and a war therefore results... both sides should stay out.

If one player warns the other player continuing their conduct will lead to war, the other player should respect the warning WHILE contacting the alliance-leadership of their respective alliance who can discuss/ resolve the issue with the other alliance-leadership ASAP - avoiding the war.

Failure to contact the alliance leadership about a issue which could result in war means your taking matters into your own hands... and if you do that then to be honest you shouldn't expect alliance-support. If there's a problem... contact the leadership lol

- If one player masses/ sabbs/ assassinates etc... another without warning.... then the alliance should be free to intervene.

- Abusive messages = good justification for war.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now... can someone in TOC confirm to me whether or not the above looks "ok" (baring in mind its merely a set of notes to try and restart this discussion)?

Ian, I think this is a good starting point. Also I think SA47's proposal is a good starting point for sorting "the Castravete issue" as well. 10 hours of Kuwal may be difficult to calculate though, hope we don't get discussions over that.

yes, seaborgium...you are right, dude: Mitola, Skyfighter,Admiral Ackbar, Bugs, Inox, left TIE and after they quit...no? Or the way some play is totally active: logged once a week, go on ppt and that's it they are TIE active TIE members...ride on;)...or some were just some dudes from others games that helped you with this war than left...ain't that?