TOC & TIE Peace Treaty Discussion

Kingofshinobis1 wrote:Seems like TOC has made its decision

Seems like TIE already made its decision.

Oh snap!

FarleShadow wrote:

Kingofshinobis1 wrote:Seems like TOC has made its decision

Seems like TIE already made its decision.

Oh snap!

Yeah, both sides seem to want war......but who will win? It's anyone's guess

Lord Ishurue wrote:

ian wrote:
Simply put: I ve given it to The Imperium to decide on whether to have peace at this point. I ll update as more posts happen... but I m not hopeful

Well if your not hopeful . Then we mine as well request to lock this topic for the time being . Makes things a lot easier . plus the (TOC) vs (TIE) thread will become more interesting with this thread locked .

ian wrote:
so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

Then this war will continue

Nice personal vendeta. Good 1 ISH. Just shows how much you care about your alliance and can not overcome your pride. TIE is holding out longer than you expected hmmm

Magnus wrote:

Lord Ishurue wrote:

ian wrote:
Simply put: I ve given it to The Imperium to decide on whether to have peace at this point. I ll update as more posts happen... but I m not hopeful

Well if your not hopeful . Then we mine as well request to lock this topic for the time being . Makes things a lot easier . plus the (TOC) vs (TIE) thread will become more interesting with this thread locked .

ian wrote:
so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

Then this war will continue

Nice personal vendeta. Good 1 ISH. Just shows how much you care about your alliance and can not overcome your pride. TIE is holding out longer than you expected hmmm

Normally, I would hold my tongue in these kind of retarded situations, but honesty? Wtf.

Ishurue apparently has a 'personal vendetta' against TIE....even when TIE themselves say 'Unless you surrender, this war will continue'! This is not good logic, this is self-justifying logic of someone who merely wishes to continue the fighting.

If TIE demanded peace, the answer is extremely simple:

All attacks should cease.
All farming from both sides for kuwal/uu should cease.
The peace cannot be broken before X date.

But I honestly don't believe TIE want peace, because, as the top alliance, they are constantly under threat of being succeeded by lesser alliances, so paranoia and fear force them to fabricate ideas that the second and third place alliances are secretly waiting to attack them!

I seem to remember when WR threatened TIE, suddenly Kenzu (Who I will admit is high on my personal hit list), is an 'evil guy spreading false rumours about TIE!'

This play is getting old and boring.

And in order to negate the serious business of this response. Lol. Dongs.

FarleShadow wrote:

Magnus wrote:

Lord Ishurue wrote:

ian wrote:
Simply put: I ve given it to The Imperium to decide on whether to have peace at this point. I ll update as more posts happen... but I m not hopeful

Well if your not hopeful . Then we mine as well request to lock this topic for the time being . Makes things a lot easier . plus the (TOC) vs (TIE) thread will become more interesting with this thread locked .

ian wrote:
so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

Then this war will continue

Nice personal vendeta. Good 1 ISH. Just shows how much you care about your alliance and can not overcome your pride. TIE is holding out longer than you expected hmmm

Normally, I would hold my tongue in these kind of retarded situations, but honesty? Wtf.

Ishurue apparently has a 'personal vendetta' against TIE....even when TIE themselves say 'Unless you surrender, this war will continue'! This is not good logic, this is self-justifying logic of someone who merely wishes to continue the fighting.

If TIE demanded peace, the answer is extremely simple:

All attacks should cease.
All farming from both sides for kuwal/uu should cease.
The peace cannot be broken before X date.

But I honestly don't believe TIE want peace, because, as the top alliance, they are constantly under threat of being succeeded by lesser alliances, so paranoia and fear force them to fabricate ideas that the second and third place alliances are secretly waiting to attack them!

I seem to remember when WR threatened TIE, suddenly Kenzu (Who I will admit is high on my personal hit list), is an 'evil guy spreading false rumours about TIE!'

This play is getting old and boring.

And in order to negate the serious business of this response. Lol. Dongs.

No offense against your post, but I think you got things a bit wrong. Read the Post from Vesper and what King posted afterwards and maybe your eyes will open. If not I can not help you. Greetz mate

links or it didn't happen.

Edit: If your proof of is a previous TIE guy with a story, I'd applaud you, but aside from the Pro-TIE stuff, Vesper essentially agrees with my primary point.

Actually, here is the entire war in visual form:

here

Accepting both, ian's request to continue war as well as him confirming that it was an underhanded tactic. Really dont see why you cry so much about castra then, you're both doing the same thing

FarleShadow wrote:paranoia and fear force them to fabricate ideas that the second and third place alliances are secretly waiting to attack them!

I left TIE because to form an alliance with a friend and try to form a 3rd power that Ishurure was supposed to do.

Here is my story, there were 3 powers, (WR, TIE, FIRE) they countered each other. FIRE sided with WR so then there were 2 powers. Theses powers are bound to fight based off of well there is nobody else. You cant fight yourself right. I will now form the 3rd power. I will not make the same idiotic mistake as Ishurue and let old relationships disrupt the flow of the game.

I can assure you that TIE is not making up things that FIRE is out to get them. First off I am the one to post that FIRE intended to attack TIE for months. Not a single person in TIE felt like saying it. Secondly, since my post not a single ToC member has denied it and at least 2 out of the 3 messaged Ian saying that they wish to discuss peace over MSN. No ToC LEADER can be honest and deny that Ishurue didnt contact them trying to get them to "breaK' TIE. You know what ToC has done with the accusations of them plotting against TIE? They are ignoring it and pretending that a big bomb didnt just go off letting th cat out of the bag.

FarleShadow have you even ASKED your leaders if its true? You saying TIE is paranoid of attacks all the time because of a post I wrote makes me feel as though your saying I made up my post. Being paranoid and well informed are very different things. I think it is best if you go and ask your leaders if they intended to attack TIE for months before TIE took any action against them what so ever. After you get your facts straight (assuming they are honest with you, which is doubtful) then you can come back here and rant all you want about TIE beign an evil and paranoid bunch.

I choose to leave this out of my long post before but I believe everyone is aware that Ian asked for peace over msn after massing like 3 accounts only. ToC refused on the grounds that TIE was plotting this war for a long time and they referenced a message from over a month before the war started. That message I believe was something about Ian saying we will need to take action against the farmers or something. I dont even remember it really. They ignored the 100+ messages Ian sent after the fact of us beign able to relax now and do more games as an alliance. So if ToC can refuse peace based off an outdated message why can't TIE refuse peace based off of trustworthy sources that finally see the truth? Lots of people think TIE keeps spies in other alliances. Well I can tell you here and now that TIE has nobody that officially is a spy planted into any alliance. HONEST people feel their leaders are idiots so they decide to tell TIE things that will hep us to counter their leaders wrath. You don't even want to know how many people from WR decided to forward me every single message Kenzu sent during the last TIE vs WR war where I acted as a diplomat. Nothing can be kept secret on AW for long. Ishurue tried to keep things secretive and keep his alliance out of the loop. Too bad for him the other alliances HC weren't so clever.

I do agree with a majority of your post though farle. Just not the paranoia bit.

aworon wrote:Accepting both, ian's request to continue war as well as him confirming that it was an underhanded tactic. Really dont see why you cry so much about castra then, you're both doing the same thing

Aworon. I feel you should not be in this war. It is WR. It has always been WR. FIRE is nothing but a spin off of WR. I personally would like to see you withdraw from the war and help me in forming a 3rd power to counter both of these empires.

Now is the perfect time to form a 3rd power. If ToC attacks us TIE wil intervene. If TIE attacks us ToC will intervene. The turmoil is so strong between the 2 of them that they will jump at the chance to hit each other so we are basically safe to grow for now.

The whole war does not need to stop at once. You are a part of the war. If you leave for greener pastures then that part of the war will end. Everyone will be that much closer to growing up then.

We're in for the lulz, the personal war exp, alliance war exp, the farming and building up a better feeling for fighting on this game.

Considering we have no political expectations hence dont have to justify ourselves and most importantly most of TIE are having fun so leaving the war would be a letdown for them.

I dont want to spoil their fun afterall

Well if it's so then why comment on the political machinations at hand? You and I both know what's going on anyway and who's right ... and who's wrong

seaborgium wrote:Vesper was already hiit.
Stars didn't ask to leave war. He asked for 2 days

Does that mean you agree with the the counter-proposal, except for who are on that list?

no. I am not a fan of time limits.

seaborgium wrote:no. I am not a fan of time limits.

Three months is a long time in AW. Besides, everything should have an end to it. If you tell someone you're going to sit on his account forever, don't you mean just a very long time?

Well... there is still a large chunk of TIE not wanting peace... however if a peace IS agreed they WILL respect that (or not be in TIE). SO - i ll post some sort of official points T.I.E is interested in in order for peace to occur:

- T.O.C agree's to respect our farming policy - both the one now & future one's (i.e. in the event a TOC individual decides to ignore the policy and gets massed as a result, T.O.C should not intervene. THAT is what I mean by respect lol)

- T.O.C accepts they WON'T be gaining access to The Imperium IF its hidden or any branch of The Imperium which IS hidden to check the logs - given that would completely negate the whole point of The Imperium/ part of The Imperium being hidden (a.k.a. who our members are, our size, strength etc...). For our visible alliance - then we can agree to the whole "swapping advisers to check the logs once a sabbing/assassination attack on a TOC/TIE member has been proven to have happened" term... but for any future hidden part of T.I.E.... you won't be gaining access to (hidden = doesn't exist as far as outsiders should be concerned) it.

- T.O.C ceases all attempts at recruiting a coalition with the express/stated purpose of attacking The Imperium. Recruiting allies for general (i.e. no specific enemy) defence purposes is fine.... but i don't want to have any more messages land in my inbox from concerned non-TIE friends that they ve been contacted by T.O.C to form a coalition with countering The Imperium *specifically* mentioned.

- T.O.C agree's to respect personal war's started in response to any future T.O.C player's provocation.

I.e. a example would be a T.O.C member farming a TIE member and being requested to stop farming - then continuing to farm after being requested to stop - then being warned to stop farming.... and then deciding to continue farming that TIE member after being warned - thereby doing so knowing that it could and may very well lead to a personal war occurring.

By choosing to continue farming after being warned (on 2 occassions in this example) they thus force the TIE member into a position of:

- Back down and therefore be walked over by the TOC member
- Stand up for themselves and use military force.

IF a T.O.C member in this situation is asked to stop farming and ignores a warning and thereby causes a personal war BOTH sides should respect that personal war and remain out of it.

In the event a T.O.C member is asked by a TIE member to stop farming that TIE member, and they disagree with that request - they should stop farming and contact their alliance-leadership concerning it... who in turn should contact TIE's leadership and the problem can then be resolved (i.e. a solution found) BEFORE it ever reaches the point a personal-war occurs....

But in such an example where a T.O.C member keeps farming after being requested and then warned by a individual TIE member - knowing it would lead to conflict... when that personal war then occurs T.O.C should respect that personal war.

IF a T.O.C member has a problem with a request - CONTACT THE LEADERSHIP!!! The situation can then be resolved peacefully BEFORE a personal war EVER happens.

This is just a example of the events which could lead to a personal war. Other examples include:

- Abusive language
- Threats

Likewise.... TIE will also respect a personal war provoked by a TIE member. Obviously if a TOC or TIE member were to start a personal war without warning then that would be deemed an unprevoked attack..... and therefore TIE or TOC would be free to intervene...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the Castravate issue... that needs discussing on msn. He's apologised to me about the language so thats improved thing's substantially as far as I m concerned... his whole leaving, entering, leaving, entering conduct in this war does still need to have some sort of solution found for it....

IF T.O.C is serious about also wanting peace could you guys provide me with some idea of your own wishes (i.e. i ve lost track of any official proposal/ what you want) - so if you could post here/ message me ingame to give me a idea....

Cheers

aworon wrote:Accepting both, ian's request to continue war as well as him confirming that it was an underhanded tactic. Really dont see why you cry so much about castra then, you're both doing the same thing

1.) Point to me where I requested to continue the war
2.) Point to me where I confirmed whatever underhanded tactic your referring to.

FarleShadow wrote:lActually, here is the entire war in visual form:

here

LOL.

That has to be the best post so far about this war lol

ian wrote:1.) Point to me where I requested to continue the war
2.) Point to me where I confirmed whatever underhanded tactic your referring to.

ian wrote:so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

You read this thread since you post in it, so i'm sure that you've read my post which was a reply to your own post (this is all 2 pages ago). Considering it's been over 2 days since the question has been asked,it is logical to conclude that you have no intention to answer it. By default permitting me to pick my own answer.

You can of course change your decision

aworon wrote:

ian wrote:1.) Point to me where I requested to continue the war
2.) Point to me where I confirmed whatever underhanded tactic your referring to.

ian wrote:so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

You read this thread since you post in it, so i'm sure that you've read my post which was a reply to your own post (this is all 2 pages ago). Considering it's been over 2 days since the question has been asked,it is logical to conclude that you have no intention to answer it. By default permitting me to pick my own answer.

You can of course change your decision

In asking that question you ignored everything previously said concerning it. I however will answer that question with a 5 paragraph answer. This isn't an attempt at propaganda, merely a honest view of events from TIE's perspective:

By the time the pre-N.A.P was agreed The Imperium was at full-war mobilisation and had been since the threats first started arriving against us about 3 days prior to that. When the N.A.P was agreed there was still no definate plan or final decision to attack. Our members had been told to be ready for war, and that a final order (deciding whether or not to proceed ahead with a preemptive strike) would be issued to them based on the actual situation.

About 12hours *after* the Pre-NAP was agreed and signed we received information that T.O.C had been ordered to go to full-war mobilisation themselves, and that your members were being told to get online for roughly 12hours before the NAP expired. The "final order" (confirmation we were going to war) was then issued to The Imperium at that point, and a strike time set. As far as we were concerned T.O.C had no intention of honouring the agreement (like the previous TIE/FIRE agreement with Cabal) - and that any negotiations you tried to have with us would only serve to be to try and "disarm" and "mislead" us into thinking a peaceful coexistence could still be achieved.

Our view of this was based on previous experience - in the first WR/TIE war after the first week of fighting had happened, TIE stopped attacking WR because we were under the impression peace could be reached without further blood-shed. 3 weeks later we came under attack by WR + Allies. During the talks with FIRE concerning Cabal, myself and LI had reached a understanding... only then to come under attack.

On both occasions we had let our guard down and paid for it - both times due to getting the impression a agreement could be reached. The Pre-NAP we felt was no different... so when we heard TOC was gathering members online we figured it was to attack - something you, Kenzu & LI actually confirmed in our "first" peace talks after this war began... except you mentioned you THEN decided not to attack... however T.I.E could have not known about your last minute decision, so we proceeded ahead with our own attack believing an attack on TIE to be imminent (we thought your previous attack must have been delayed due to not enough players turning up or something lol).

I d like it noted that TIE's intepretation of an imminent attack was also supported by 3 addittional points:

1.) The various sabbing's/assassinations done against TIE prior to the war (which we believed was by TOC... since some at least were i.e. command92)
2.) The contacting of various alliances over the proceeding several months to form a coalition to topple The Imperium (we figured your plan was finally about to go into action and the actual "Toppling" was about to commence)
3.) The fact you & LI tried (and continued to) to sell Emperor's "neutrality" to me in the convo proceeding the one where we agreed on a Pre-NAP right up untill you actually left the conversation. TIE & myself already knew of Emperor's links... so misleading us even in a convo designed to "lay the foundations for a lasting peace" did pose some serious questions about whether or not you guys were serious... and unfortunately supported the point of view that the entire Pre-NAP and associated conversations were just an extended attempt to try and talk TIE into disarming and dropping our preparation while at the same time buying time for T.O.C to complete its final war-preparations/ get in a first strike....

So... in answer to the below question: When we agreed on the Pre-NAP war was still a possibility, but was far from certain. No final decision had been made. The final decision was only made AFTER the Pre-NAP was signed - with the final straw "breaking the camel's back" (Camel's back = TIE's interest in keeping peace) being our hearing about your war-mobilisation and the request being given for TOC members to get online....

aworon wrote:

ian wrote:We will continue to do so untill you clarify your stance on Castravate - namely on whether you ll continue to adopt the stance of "if Castravate's massed after the war then the war will continue".

I would like to see your clarify your stance on the NAP, TOC offered tie before the war started. Considering it's now a known certainty that right from the start you had no intention of using it for what it was meant to be, negotiations.

Was it:
a) a tactical ploy
or b) an underhanded tactic

I will copy my answer using your reply.

We would have continued negotiations had we not heard about your full-war mobilisation. We d have probably continued negotiations even after we d have heard about your full-war mobilisation IF you & LI hadn't in the proceeding conversations (the one where the actual Pre-NAP was finally agreed) continued to try and convince us of Emperor's neutrality and suitability to be a *neutral* witness able to hold both parties to abiding by the agreement. The combination of the 2 meant we no longer believed the negotiations were genuine.

So... at the time of the Pre-NAP being signed, The Imperium still had a genuine interest in negotiations and in following it - AFTER signing it, it became apparent the negotiations were not genuine, and merely a attempt to delay TIE or to try and trick us into dropping our guard.

you could have said straight away that you agree with my post how i interpreted your reply

so why are you so upset about castra jumping the war?
He's just mimicking your behavior.
There will be no special clause for castravete whatsoever unless there's some special clause concerning the NAP

FTR, I think both of you are screwing up epically and if you continue that then all future wars will end up sucking because everyone will use whatever means to get an advantage over the other side.
But sure, keep going, A1 methods.

aworon wrote:you could have said straight away that you agree with my post how i interpreted your reply

so why are you so upset about castra jumping the war?
He's just mimicking your behavior.
There will be no special clause for castravete whatsoever unless there's some special clause concerning the NAP

FTR, I think both of you are screwing up epically and if you continue that then all future wars will end up sucking because everyone will use whatever means to get an advantage over the other side.
But sure, keep going, A1 methods.

You didn't read a single word I said did you?

How the hell did you come to the conclusion that what I said agreed with your intepretation? You stated Considering it's now a known certainty that right from the start you had no intention of using it for what it was meant to be, negotiations.[/b]

Was it:
a) a tactical ploy
or b) an underhanded tactic

We had EVERY intention of using it for negotiations... THEN we heard about your lovely plan to attack... so promptly thought "screw it, whats the point". Had the bright sparks in the T.O.C leadership NOT told their members to prepare for war and THEN set a time for everyone to get online - we would have continued the negotiations.

So your intepretation is completely wrong. There's also a huge difference between Castravate & The Imperium:

1.) He did what he did TWICE. Remind me - How many times did The Imperium attack T.O.C again?
2.) He entered into an agreement TWICE and both times VOLUNTARILY broke it. There's no doubt about his intentions - namely to ask for a agreement, use it to his advantage - and then break it. He intended it all along - hence why he did it TWICE voluntarily. On the other hand The Imperium attacked once - forced on us by necessity due to the decision made by the T.O.C leadership to set a strike time... of course The Imperium could have sat idly by and waited to come under attack... but given the huge numerical and tactical disadvantage we are in naturally, this really would have meant TOC would have steam rolled us if you d have gained the advantages of a first-strike.

On the other hand EVERYTHING you say about The Imperium is one HUGE assumption & guess - one which has repeatedly and accurately been rebuffed.

If there will be no special clause for Castravate, then there will be no peace. We are no longer asking to sit on him permanently or drive him from the game - we just want the opportunity to give him some special treatment due to his actions - namely asking for special treatment from The Imperium, and on BOTH occassions screwing us over when he was given the special treatment (Peace)

You had no intention, since the full 2 days had passed without TOC receiving a single message from you. Besides you had lied about tie going hidden despite being asked about it repeatedly and only after being shown proof of your lies had you changed your stance.
You could have messaged anytime saying the deal is off, you didn't however.

On the other hand, after 24-30 hours had passed since the talk and there was no life sign from tie, we correctly assumed you're not making any changes to your full mobilisation which had been going on for a while already and ahead with your war so it's logical with us to follow that too.
About the assumptions and guesses, the only thing that's been rebuffed were your silly attempts.

So yes, castra and you, it's an identical thing. The delusion that TOC had attacked and was buying time is wrong and that's a fact. I expended a lot of effort to persuade ishurue to give the nap a chance, that's the only reason why it was brought up.
You want a special clause for him, you get one too. Stop being a hypocrite

Next time dont send wide pm's telling your guys to start building up without letting the other side know what you're up to otherwise they are bound to react like TOC did.

argument lost

aworon wrote:
Next time dont send wide pm's telling your guys to start building up without letting the other side know what you're up to otherwise they are bound to react like TOC TIE did.

aworon wrote:You had no intention, since the full 2 days had passed without TOC receiving a single message from you. Besides you had lied about tie going hidden despite being asked about it repeatedly and only after being shown proof of your lies had you changed your stance.
You could have messaged anytime saying the deal is off, you didn't however.

On the other hand, after 24-30 hours had passed since the talk and there was no life sign from tie, we correctly assumed you're not making any changes to your full mobilisation which had been going on for a while already and ahead with your war so it's logical with us to follow that too.
About the assumptions and guesses, the only thing that's been rebuffed were your silly attempts.

So yes, castra and you, it's an identical thing. The delusion that TOC had attacked and was buying time is wrong and that's a fact. I expended a lot of effort to persuade ishurue to give the nap a chance, that's the only reason why it was brought up.
You want a special clause for him, you get one too. Stop being a hypocrite

Next time dont send wide pm's telling your guys to start building up without letting the other side know what you're up to otherwise they are bound to react like TOC did.

argument lost

Yeah... clearly i ve lost it because you *say* I ve lost it.

Not a single T.O.C leader has even tried to deny the claims brought against them via Vesper about preparing for war against TIE and planning to topple TIE.

As for the delusion that TOC attacked us... where the hell did I say that? I never said T.O.C had attacked us I said you guys were planning to attack.... Unless of course your referring to the sabbings/assassinations against TIE before this war began... in which case my words were "we believed TOC to be responsible... of which for at least some of them (i.e. command92) they were". That isn't an opinion or delusion... its a FACT - both in being a factual statement that we DID believe T.O.C to be responsible, and in that T.O.C WERE responsible for at least SOME. Its you who is delusional to think for one second i m claiming T.O.C (i.e. the empire) launched a attack on us first...

As for my "lieing" about TIE going hidden. Your absolutely correct I did. However lets reexamine that conversation shall we? This is the opening part of that conversation:

06/06/2010 01:51:24 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue heya both
06/06/2010 01:51:27 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue howdy
06/06/2010 01:51:34 Lord Ishurue Aworon, ian i added a nutrual party into this convo
06/06/2010 01:51:52 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue lol
06/06/2010 01:51:55 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue ok then
06/06/2010 01:51:58 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue i ll keep it simple
06/06/2010 01:52:11 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue I m concerned FIRE/ WR plan to attack what they percieve to be The Imperium
06/06/2010 01:52:27 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue i ve been asking for a confirmation of this.... and trying to stress there is no need for war
06/06/2010 01:52:56 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue instead we end up back where we are - the belief the Imperium plans to attack despite its existence no longer being the case...
06/06/2010 01:53:58 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue The Imperium no longer exists in part to avoid a war...
06/06/2010 01:54:04 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue ok, let me see how to word this
06/06/2010 01:54:15 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue it would be the ultimate irony if our disbandment served as the catalyst for paniking FIRE/ WR into attacking
06/06/2010 01:54:24 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue and starting the war we sort to avoid...
06/06/2010 01:55:11 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue I'm not buying the disbanding story looking at the battlefield ranks.
06/06/2010 01:55:32 Lord Ishurue Aworon, ian i said the same thing
06/06/2010 01:55:58 Lord Ishurue Aworon, ian he could of made SA47 or Sea the 1IC and went secret

It goes on and on and on - and yes, eventually I admitted TIE's continued existence after "evidence" (TIE's name already being taken when FIRE tried to rename to it lol) was presented (Which btw, I could have just said "dunno, i guess another TIE member recreated the name"). As for the lieing though... it went BOTH ways. Did LI or did he not say "neutral" party? I dunno about you... but another part of T.O.C does NOT class as neutral normally. You then followed up with that attempt at misinformation:

06/06/2010 02:55:34 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue can you both agree that an open and transparent cutting down on membersize is the only way to avoid it?
06/06/2010 02:55:43 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue not a chance
06/06/2010 02:55:43 ian Aworon, Lord Ishurue lol
06/06/2010 02:55:56 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue ok, i'll enjoy the popcorn

06/06/2010 02:58:20 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue ok, one last thing. what do you guys have policies for vulturing?
06/06/2010 02:59:00 Lord Ishurue Aworon, ian it never crossed my mind . other then if the victim wants u to stop , please do so
06/06/2010 02:59:02 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue just because you guys start a war doesn't mean you'll get a dont-get-farmed card

06/06/2010 03:18:22 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue ok, ego's bashing against each other again.
06/06/2010 03:18:40 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue let me know of your vulture policy somehow then, so i know what's ok and what's not

06/06/2010 03:20:45 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue bye guys, wish you all good luck, whatever way this goes

06/06/2010 03:28:50 Aworon ian, Lord Ishurue ok, screw this. enjoy your war, I'm betting my ass and half my account both of you have approximate attack dates and times set

Unless I m mistaken.... throughout the ENTIRE conversation you were trying to play the whole "Emperor's is neutral" card while secretly you were part of T.O.C all along (Proof: Actual events of your joining the war about a day after it began, and immediately wearing your T.O.C identity).

We KNEW about your links to T.O.C then... so how the hell do you think TIE was gonna react when through the entire "peace" conversation you were trying to sell the "neutral" and "mediator" story to us - willingly and intentionally misleading us? TIE admitted our existence and from then was honest about half way through the conversation... you on and other hand did not. You could have messaged us at any time saying you weren't as neutral as you tried to make out.... you didn't however.

As for messaging T.O.C the deal is off. LMAO. Yeah.... clearly I d tell you guys that we KNOW about your war-mobilisation and therefore plan to preemptively attack before you attack us..... Tell me honestly - HAD I messaged Lord Ishurue and T.O.C that.... would you of attacked there & then? Answer: Probably. As far as TIE was concerned - would you have attacked there and then? Answer: Most definately - if T.O.C's never had a problem with seizing the initiative and attacking first (i.e. in the 1st WR/ TIE war, in the 2nd half of the 1st WR/ TIE war, or in the FIRE/Cabal incident) why the hell do you think we would think T.O.C wouldn't again if we told them the deal is off with the very real outcome of no deal = war?

I ll say it again - a first strike on T.I.E combined with your numerical advantage WOULD have swung this war in T.O.C's favour. When the very survival of The Imperium was at stake (given you d all been planning this for months) I ll be damned if were going to hand over our *only* advantage - which in the end amounted to our attack being launched about 1 or 2 hours before the NAP was due to expire anyway.....

So basically your trying to compare TIE breaking a agreement by 1 or 2 hours after having good cause to do so (preemptive strike based on intelligeance recieved indictating TOC fully intended to attack - supported by the deliberate misrepresentation of the suppossed "neutral" party meant to be responsible for monitoring the peace) with Castravate who broke 2 agreements by an infinite amount of hours before he should have done - BOTH agreements which he asked for.

The first time he broke it.... we let him off (in large part due his being actually the ONLY TOC member massed before the NAP expired anyway) and gave him the 2nd agreement when he asked. We figured we were even... except apparently we weren't.

Its his actions in breaking the second agreement which The Imperium has a problem with. If we had a problem with his first betrayal we d have never agreed to a second agreement...

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IF you want this to be constructive - please answer the below:

How would TOC suggest The Imperium deals with Castravate then?

As far as I can tell this is the main thing holding the negotiations up.... so lets stop pointing fingers and accusations and just state where either side lie on the Castravate issue.

The Imperium's prepared to meet TOC on the middle-ground when it comes to him - meaning he ll be at some-sort of disadvantage (compared to ordinary TIE & TOC members) AFTER the war due to his conduct in breaking the 2nd agreement. The question is what sort of disadvantage (i.e. those he targetted being permitted to declare personal war's against him or what?)

Vesper wrote:

aworon wrote:
Next time dont send wide pm's telling your guys to start building up without letting the other side know what you're up to otherwise they are bound to react like TOC TIE did.

It should be:

Next time dont send wide pm's AFTER a PRE-NAP has just been agreed telling your guys to start building up without letting the other side know what you're up to otherwise they are bound to react like TOC TIE did.