Re: Slight addon to race specifics

by ian Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:42 pm

This update is crap admin. People have built their account based on the *existing* game set-up with the existing structure.

The changes you are making fundamentally alter the balance between races - a balance which people have taken into account and made decisions on I.e. i picked Huala 10months ago when i joined the game because i recognised with the existing set-up i could gain the advantages of a Haula Race while being able to have a reasonable specialisation in a field of my choosing.

Now with these changes would i have picked Huala? Probably not.

What your doing completely alter's the game set-up which some people have invested absolutely tons into their account's based on. Its simply wrong.

If you insist on pushing through this update - at the very least you need to give everyone a free personal bonus point change AND a free race change (i.e. not costing any ingame resources).... at least then you ll limit some of the damage you ll cause with this update.

Its unfair on everyone who picked the race and developed their account (spending tons of resources and in some case resources brought with $$$) based on their personal-points distribution - to fundamentally alter the game in such a way is actually worse than anything Ronen ever did with Dune.

You have at the very least an obligation to limit the damage of this update by making race changes free between a set-time period... giving people the change to change races inlight of this update, as well as a change to freely reassign personal points.

The update's still wrong though.

by seaborgium Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:46 pm

Vesper - our thoughts/ideas made us better then 90% better bc we looked at the info and ran numbers. So the persin, strike that, people who now no matter what they try can't take us on like they can the others on the server they pushed for a change in the game...

***posted using mobile phone***
Sorry for any mistypes.

by ian Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:48 pm

Btw - those of you saying the covert bonus per personal point should be reduced and other personal points increased.... thats just foolish.

Lets say i have 100,000 attack or defence supers armed with main battle tanks. UU rate = 140,000

100,000 x 140,000 = 14billion UU value
100,000 x 150,000 (training cost) = 15billion value
100,000 x 308,000 (weapon cost) = 30.8billion value

Total Value = 59.8billion. Each personal bonus point gives 1% attack or defence bonus - which is thus worth 598million kuwal's worth... 1% bonus means 1% less troops (and the associated costs) needed in that field to do the same job.

To now put it into perspective. 100,000 spies:

100,000 x 140,000 (UU value) = 14billion value
100,000 x 45,000 (training cost) = 4.5billion value

Total value: 18,500,000,000 kuwal value. Each personal bonus point gives 2% covert bonus - which is consequently worth 370million kuwal value.

I think Strike/ Defence bonus's have enough of a advantage while at 1% vs. the 2% bonus from covert.... don't you?

by Universe Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Live, learn, adapt and thrive. I like it, Uro. Smile

by Nomad Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:25 pm

@ Admin,,,

By your own admission Huala are not income based race, they are a balanced race so why should we have our PBP in income? Escpecially when you are suffering AE of 40%, or 35%, or 30% or what ever.

I don't mind the overall idea of this, I think I actually asked for this basic thing some time back. I just think the limitations are a bit harsh, but I also agree no one should be allowed to be 1 hit wonders, with Everything in 1 stat alone.

@ Kenzu,,,,

If everyone else gets a 25% bonus in one area then Huala need 55% to 60% on all or thats just not fair. Means everyone else matches Huala except for the 1 stat which they far excell over them in.

I recommend the following:

50% means that you can have maximum 50% of all your bonus points in this category.

Daning
Attack - max 75%
Defense - max 50%
Covert - max 50%
Income - max 50%

Miraya
Attack - max 50%
Defense - max 75%
Covert - max 50%
Income - max 50%

Kyora
Attack - max 50%
Defense - max 50%
Covert - max 75%
Income - max 50%

Hualu
Attack - max 55% or 60%
Defense - max 55% or 60%
Covert - max 55% or 60%
Income - max 55% or 60%

by Admin Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:31 pm

ian wrote:People have built their account based on the *existing* game set-up with the existing structure.

There have been a number of significant changes made to bonus points and race bonuses since the game began, and further changes were:
a) to be expected because it has been mentioned time and time again that the balance is not finished and will continue
and
b) even outright hinted that changes will be made that specifically make hualu less attractive.
https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/upcoming-updates-f23/nerfing-hualu-once-again-t1018.htm

ian wrote:What your doing completely alter's the game set-up which some people have invested absolutely tons into their account's based on. Its simply wrong.

Ok, about the altering the game setup, I really dont see how that argument works. Someone changes their race into kyora and will be able to have 30 points in covert out of their 40 without any further costs or anything. Trying to argue their tactic is now worthless because their covert power dropped by 10-15% looks kinda funny to me.

Sorry to bring the message across like this, but I can't remember anyone coming to me saying they thought of some amazing strategy and will require a significant investment and ask if it's "ok" to go forward with it, in case there are some updates that are being thought through/worked on in the short-/longterm future that would make this less powerful.

So besides everyone pretty much knowing that races are not finished yet and will undergo further changes, and everyone most definitely knowing that hualu will get nerfs, and despite that not doing the 30 second effort of even sending me a pm, then I can only with a clear and honest conscience say it's your fault (yes I know, this is horrible PR but I never liked the practice of people thinking up tactics based on incomplete or broken systems and then later trying to use that as an argument to block development. In many cases it was hard/impossible to get admins' opinion on short notice but here it is obviously not the case).

I show up on msn and visit the forum regularly, everyone who wants to ask me a question instead of keeping secrets, can do so, and the honest players do so regularly, and I always answer them quickly effectively and accurately.

If from all of that someone decides to take the risk and go ahead without asking then it's their call but they have to live with the risks.

ian wrote:If you insist on pushing through this update - at the very least you need to give everyone a free personal bonus point change AND a free race change (i.e. not costing any ingame resources).... at least then you ll limit some of the damage you ll cause with this update.

I like how people keep stating the obvious procedure that has been kept since the game got released, but I dont see the proper reason why?
Drawing on which situations did it make you think that that a free change would not be the case ian?

Hence also this reply

Vesper wrote:
Admin wrote:So anyone trying to argue that only being able to put 83% of your personal points into your focused stat instead of 100% makes your strategy (near) worthless, please think again about what you are saying.
I am Huala and dont have a spare 253,735,029,171 to change my race. So i will be reduced from 39 personal bonus points in covert down to only 20. That is a bit more then a 17% reduction

After you change to kyora you'll go from 39 to 32, ok it's 17.9%, my bad.

Vesper wrote:
Admin wrote:I agree that the limit on beta of 30 points is low for some/many people, it's partially intentional and was more of testing the concept, not the numbers themselves. Obviously you wont login to main and see you dropped 5-9 points from your non native stat suddenly, that makes no sense whatsoever.
That is exactly what happened. I logged in and had my points removed from the stat...

I do have serious doubts that you logged into main server and saw a loss in points. I really can't imagine that having worked, I know I didn't lose my points yet.

About the bank fees:

Vesper wrote:If you maybe removed the bank fee to "balance" the races perhaps more people would play other races.

There would be no reason whatsoever to pick hualu then. I know that because that's what I considered doing (and actually did for about a day, but then removed it again after feedback) 1.5 years ago.

Vesper wrote:
Admin wrote:I didn't know average army size people, 1 mil AS, have to pay 100 bil to change race.
For my account the ratio of Army : Race change cost is 22 times less than what you suggested it should be.
One of us has either made a seriously bad decision in building our accounts or is distorting the truth severly and out of proportion to the issue at hand
To change your race, extensive investments into genetic modifications have to be made:
The cost is expected to be: 253,735,029,171 Kuwal Kuwal can be in the open or in your bank (either way, you must have the kuwal to pay the price)

Vesper really stop trying to do emotional posts and think, I was obviously not hinting at that person having a bad setup, I was pointing out Hai's flaw in stating someone with an average army size will need to pay 100 bil if they wanted to change a race anytime.
As you can see yourself you dont need to pay the equivalent of 100 bil kuwal for each 1 mil units otherwise your cost to change would be several times higher, hence proving hai's statement to be OTT and out of touch with reality

Vesper wrote:I am currently tech 172% and 78% bonus. So we are looking at spending 254bil to switch to kyora then another 16bil to increase my tech to 175% if i want to maintain my current level and style of gameplay. If you can name a single person on the server that can make 270bil in a reasonable amount of time I will be in total shock being the highest economic production is around 12bil a day.

I am happy we solved your problem by proving in the points addressed above that you wont need to pay for the race change.

I really dont get this attitude of "you have to give us at least this and this" or "you are obliged to do so and so".
If it's not already clear to someone what will be given as freebie as part of this or any other change in the future then first ask in a normal, mature and civilized manner.
And if some people are so terribly worried that their super special tactics will be useless then why did none of you simply ask if there wouldn't be a way to return the kuwal invested into techs and levels so that you're not screwed over (but I bet that only very few would make use of such an option and we all know why).
Believe it or not but you are allowed to ask questions. I dont remember telling anyone a reply in the style "I wont answer that" to a question related to a serious or urgent issue.

by Admin Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:49 pm

Nomad wrote:@ Admin,,,

By your own admission Huala are not income based race, they are a balanced race so why should we have our PBP in income? Escpecially when you are suffering AE of 40%, or 35%, or 30% or what ever.

I don't mind the overall idea of this, I think I actually asked for this basic thing some time back. I just think the limitations are a bit harsh, but I also agree no one should be allowed to be 1 hit wonders, with Everything in 1 stat alone.

I think I already wrote about that you can have up to 80% in the primary stat, but there's a lot of writing so i'll repeat that now.
Kyora, daning and miraya can have up to 80% in the primary stat, hualu can have up to 60%

And dont get how AE makes income bonus less efficient. It's still a % increase. so if you have base income of 200 mil, AE of 40% and income bonus of 3.75% (30 points) then you will produce 83 mil income, compared to 80 mil income without bonus.
3 mil per turn is 3.75% of 80 mil, and in said case equivalent to the production of 150,000 farmers
So anyone care to shed light on that matter?
a % bonus is always the same, maybe people get confused because AE is shown in % and not as a direct deducted value or something.

by Vesper Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:59 pm

So basically you will continue to alter the "balance" of the races and constantly edit and change the basic gameplay? What is the point in playing a broken or incomplete game if at a moments notice it can change entirely?
https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/cash-market-f15/possibly-selling-account-t1361.htm#15308

admin wrote:After you change to kyora you'll go from 39 to 32, ok it's 17.9%, my bad.

Okay first off, i am haula which in my example is mentioned
(20 / 39 = 48.7%) so 48.7% reduction in the points
Secondly in your list of distribution you say 30 points to kyora (so where does the 32 come in?) 30 / 39 = 23%

by Admin Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:04 pm

Vesper wrote:So basically you will continue to alter the "balance" of the races and constantly edit and change the basic gameplay? What is the point in playing a broken or incomplete game if at a moments notice it can change entirely?
https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/cash-market-f15/possibly-selling-account-t1361.htm#15308

Let me get this straight, you were under the impression that I had stated somewhere that race balancing is done and over with thereby negating those countless posts and even threads about how further changes are necessary and will come in the future?

So please distinguish between altering balance and actually getting balance done. The first implies that it has been achieved, this is clearly not the case nor has ever been as has been said time and time again

About playing broken games, no clue why people play sgw either if they complain about broken stuff there, beats me.
About playing incomplete games, well when they see that things fill up, and become less incomplete then dont see why they shouldn't play.

Vesper wrote:
admin wrote:After you change to kyora you'll go from 39 to 32, ok it's 17.9%, my bad.
Okay first off, i am haula which in my example is mentioned
(20 / 39 = 48.7%) so 48.7% reduction in the points
Secondly in your list of distribution you say 30 points to kyora (so where does the 32 come in?) 30 / 39 = 23%

Read my reply to nomad one post above yours

by Vesper Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:15 pm

You could remove banking fee's then do what nomad suggested giving 55 to 60% to haula for each stat while others get 40% max for each stat except the specialized one where they would get unlimited. That will make Haula the race for people that go for the balanced account. Others that want a more specialized account will use an alternative race.

by Admin Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:30 pm

I think I already made it clear that removing the banking fee wont solve the issue, hualu is then useless compared to the others

by Vesper Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:31 pm

try reading the rest of the post....

by seaborgium Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:23 pm

(yes I know, this is horrible PR but I never liked the practice of people thinking up tactics based on incomplete or broken systems and then later trying to use that as an argument to block development. In many cases it was hard/impossible to get admins' opinion on short notice but here it is obviously not the case).

80% of the construction isn't built
Medals how many of them work?

by Admin Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:35 pm

seaborgium wrote:80% of the construction isn't built
Medals how many of them work?

You say only 20% of construction works? I say 50% works, you can count it, first 2 rows work as they should, bottom 2 rows dont.
Medals, 2 out of 37 aren't released, that means a grand total 94.5% of medals has been released.
Plus if you dont like to look at them, i can also make them not show up. no problem

Any other futile arguments which have really nothing to do with the topic at hand?

by Hai-Shulud Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:31 am

LOL admin has a bite Razz

Please excuse my friends admin - they along with me arent too keen on this latest "potential" update as it does ruin quite a few plans we have already put in motion and started spending hard cold cash on.

We are getting the grips with the game and you keep changing goal posts. Its kinda frustrating having to learn the new game each time. On the test server its fine but if it falls on the very few who actually play to learn the ropes and spread their wisdom. So we are asking nicely - please reconsider this whole idea. Or at the very least postpone it indefinitely.

Cheers

by Admin Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:58 am

As we've already seen, if they change to the specific race they want to use the bonus from, which they can do at no cost, then they will hardly get affected by this.

Plus we've already discussed what you need to do if you think you got an amazing plan that relies on an unfinished part of the game which you know will undergo changes in the future.

by Alex Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:03 am

WOW I was confused, please disregard if you had a chance to read what was here.

-Alex

by Disco_Vader Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:26 am

I like any change that amplifies differences between the races. Personally I would like to see each race have a crippling flaw. I think moving towards that extreme direction would lead to alliances actively looking to recruit a suitable balance of all races.

Meanwhile, I am definitely one that has chosen one race, but has not chosen bonuses that match the obvious strength of my race. In rpgs, there are often advantages to building up unlikely/mismatched skills/bonuses/etc from you class/race. Characters like this are typically more difficult to play -- but that's a choice you get to make. My point is I am not particularly fond of the direction that each race is going to become more confined/cookie-cutter.

My preference would be to give each race some kind of bonus/advantage specific to the "core" of the race (covert (++assassination?) for kyora) -- and allow either continued focus or diverted focus for the pbp. E.g. you could be a kyora that is extra strong at covert (the obvious) -- OR you could be a kyora that has a side specialty of attack based on the allocation of pbp.

I think locking down the focus to your focus area will lead to players turning into caricatures of the race as they only become extra stong in the obvious place. The bigger/stronger a player gets, the more plain-jane they will become in their area.

I'm not saying that it's not an awesome idea to become super specialized in your obvious area -- I just like the idea of a richer spectrum of possibilities.

Of course to justify this argument, I'd have to propose an alternative bonus/advantage than pbp for each race. Obviously hualu already has the banking one outside of pbp. For the others, one idea is to just gift/lift the starting point for the basic technology research in the relevant area (spy/assassin training for kyora, weapon technology for daning/miraya). I don't think that's a great suggestion, but it's pretty easy.

I think this post is starting to stray too far off-topic. If this idea seems interesting to anyone -- it seems related to this older idea in another thread:
https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/game-suggestions-f22/player-classes-t938.htm

by Lord Ishurue Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:29 am

Disco_Vader wrote:I like any change that amplifies differences between the races. Personally I would like to see each race have a crippling flaw. I think moving towards that extreme direction would lead to alliances actively looking to recruit a suitable balance of all races.

Meanwhile, I am definitely one that has chosen one race, but has not chosen bonuses that match the obvious strength of my race. In rpgs, there are often advantages to building up unlikely/mismatched skills/bonuses/etc from you class/race. Characters like this are typically more difficult to play -- but that's a choice you get to make. My point is I am not particularly fond of the direction that each race is going to become more confined/cookie-cutter.

My preference would be to give each race some kind of bonus/advantage specific to the "core" of the race (covert (++assassination?) for kyora) -- and allow either continued focus or diverted focus for the pbp. E.g. you could be a kyora that is extra strong at covert (the obvious) -- OR you could be a kyora that has a side specialty of attack based on the allocation of pbp.

I think locking down the focus to your focus area will lead to players turning into caricatures of the race as they only become extra stong in the obvious place. The bigger/stronger a player gets, the more plain-jane they will become in their area.

I'm not saying that it's not an awesome idea to become super specialized in your obvious area -- I just like the idea of a richer spectrum of possibilities.

Of course to justify this argument, I'd have to propose an alternative bonus/advantage than pbp for each race. Obviously hualu already has the banking one outside of pbp. For the others, one idea is to just gift/lift the starting point for the basic technology research in the relevant area (spy/assassin training for kyora, weapon technology for daning/miraya). I don't think that's a great suggestion, but it's pretty easy.

I think this post is starting to stray too far off-topic. If this idea seems interesting to anyone -- it seems related to this older idea in another thread:
https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/game-suggestions-f22/player-classes-t938.htm

How the Test server set up is not too bad , it allows a Kyora to be a hybrid race who can mix up between being a Covert & Strike or 30 points covert and the rest in another stat .

So if any change is made The test server set up seems fine . all Covert guys can switch to kyora and max out the bonus limit for the race . Guys who prefer a balance of both attack and Covert can still play as Huala or Kyora .

This whole precentage per point thing i dont understand it . what if 75% of someones bonus points is not a whole number are they gona have for example 15.75 points in a stat ?

by Admin Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 am

Ishurue wrote:This whole precentage per point thing i dont understand it . what if 75% of someones bonus points is not a whole number are they gona have for example 15.75 points in a stat ?

Because I'm such a nice person, I let it round UP, so if you should be allowed to only have 18.01 points then you will be able to put up to 19 points into that stat

by Sandwalker Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:16 am

ok I have only skimmed through these FOUR PAGES! I have drawn some conclusions:

- Idea is good enough, gives incentive to try other races (unlike now);
- I'm a hualu specialized heavily in covert so I'll probably use that free race change to go kyora (yes, I thought it was obvious martin would give a free rance change with this update the second I saw what it was about.)
- Universe likes any post that generates arguments and I can understand that, I like to see people fighting too.
- I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE AIRFORCE THING TO BE RELEASED! If this had 4 pages, imagine how much that will have.

by Universe Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:27 am

Sandwalker wrote:- Universe likes any post that generates arguments and I can understand that, I like to see people fighting too.

Off-topic, and ridiculously farfetched.

I like the idea, because it is something new, and requires everyone to adapt. Each turn of events that shocks people into changing how they play the game is a good turn of events, as long as the end result is that everyone has more fun. I can understand why someone would be opposed to the idea, if it affects their own account negatively. Maybe it's me, I don't know.. but to me, changes and strife are powerful events/situations that can bring about a revolution in gameplay.
I like to think you agree with that, Dune. Let me?

Not surprising, each revolution has opposition.

by Admin Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:06 pm

Sandwalker wrote: (yes, I thought it was obvious martin would give a free rance change with this update the second I saw what it was about.)

A ray of hope has shined onto my heart knowing that the message got through to at least one person by now

by seaborgium Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:08 pm

1. starts to cry about the airforce discussion pages
2. I think the idea has a good base, but the players that complain are the ones who put all eggs in 1 basket, which at that time was a good idea.
a side note to that, almost all admins change things such as this once it shows that it is too powerful and 1 group or another decides to go that route to dominate the rest.
3. admin always gives a way to change things everytime he makes a semi radical change.

by ian Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:46 am

I have a request to make concerning this update.

Can you release the major-attack system update several days/ a week before this one please?

This way it will give those on main who haven't tested it out on the test server (which i think might be the majority of players i.e. those who don't check the forum area as frequently as they should) a chance to figure out the direction they want to take their account based on the various changes incoming with the new attack system - and then if this update is released, they ll have the opportunity to switch race to reflect any decisions they may make in light of both this update and the new attack system update....

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