Imperium/Mujengen situation

2 situations have occurred between us. Both are currently unresolved.

The first Situation was a bunch of sabotage & assassination hits done by Roberts (Mujengen) against Stars (TIE) - done in response to a LEGITIMATE hit by Stars on Roberts within the Mujengen Policy AND the TIE-TOC policy.

[10 Feb] 09:24 R0B3RT Sabotage Destroyed: 9274;7590 680,000
[10 Feb] 09:11 ???? Offense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:11 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:14 R0B3RT Assassin Success 450,000

My Message to Smog:

"Hey Buddy.

I m going to be requiring R0B3RT to compensate Stars for the sabotage and assassination hits he did on him.

Stars attack was within the agreed TIE-TOC farming policy - R0B3RT sabbing & assassinating him was wrong.

If he's not compensated The Imperium will be removing R0B3RT of all his stats.

Thanks"

My Message to Roberts:

Hey Buddy.

I m going to be requiring you to compensate Stars for the sabotage and assassination hits you ve done on him.

Stars attack on you was within the agreed TIE-TOC farming policy. Failure to compensate will be deemed a act of war by The Imperium and we ll retaliate against you as such.

Thanks

Smog's Response:

This is the 5th message I get concerning this problem. I already told stars that he's getting his money back from robert.

Roberts Response: He deleted his account

Smog & Mujengen then refused to compensate Stars for the actions which one of their members did while under their banner in violation of the TIE-TOC peace treaty.

Since then (12th Febuary) & now (18th Febuary) I will admit I got confused and seemed to be thinking Robert's had merely done a non-profitable hit - as oppossed to a small scale full massing attempt on Stars. Thus the below messages reflect that confusion:

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The second situation was a breach of the Mujengen policy done by Stars against Castravate

[15 Feb] 09:31 Castravete 6,812,728,886 Kuwal Stolen 10 823 7583 11,484,028,710 7,774,506,010

There's no debating it - the hit [/i]WAS a breach.

Stars has (understandably) refused to compensate for that hit however given Mujengen have not honoured the actions done by Roberts and compensated Stars.

The first 3 messages I recieve from Mujengen:

Castravate:

hi there, dude...long time without hearing from you...already missing you.

by the way check star's log's and tell him so kindly to repay and give the compensation he has to for the last hit he made on me...so: I asked him polite, he refused...I made the maths and sent it to him, he refused again...and now he sent me to you...check his log and tell him to do what he has to do.

Vaga:

Hi. There was a bad hit made on castravete by stars. If he doesn't repay, all his stats will be removed.
Cheers.

Smog:

Hi. Stars made a bad hit on castravete, and has to repay it. Otherwise, all of stars' stats will be removed.

Smog Second Message (I m guessing sent after he chatted to Vaga):

If you want to find the numbers, check my MOTD. As for stars, tell him to ask robert for compensation/mass him, since it's not mujengan's problem anymore. Now you either pay back castravete, or we're going to find some other way to make justice.
minimum profit for a hit over castravete is 30% of the kuwal stolen, roughly 2.26 billion.
stars' costs for the hit were 6.99 billion.
money stolen 6.8 billion
the hit was made at [15 Feb] 09:31
Starting that moment, stars had 7 days to pay back the kuwal stolen + compensation for 823 casualties suffered by castravete's army.
And please, don't give me that crap with robert, you said it yourself: he either pays or all his stats are removed. His stats are removed, payment is done.

My response to Vaga:

LOL. Really?

Not a good plan threatening to mass a Imperium member when that very same Imperium member is still waiting for compensation from Mujengen for a hit Robert did - which even though Robert has left, does not correct the damage done to Stars.

Once Stars is compensated for Roberts hit on him, we ll compensate for Stars hit on Castravate. You can't just demand compensate while refusing to give it. Thing's dont work that way I m afraid.

Any massing attempt done on Stars in the meantime... will be a act of war. Want compensation.... actually act fairly and compensate Stars for breaches done on him and I ll then make sure he compensates others for breaches he does.

Simple

Second (immediately following after the first) Message to Vaga:

also, while your at it... can you actually provide some figures to allow a working out of the profitability of the hit.

All I got from Castravate was there has been a breach. No UU values Mujengen is operating by etc... etc... So you guys can't honestly expect people to just jump when your own members can't even be assed to provide any relevant detail actually necessary to do something about it.

I will make sure Stars (or someone else on his behalf since he don't have SS) compensates Castravate if it was a breach as soon as he recieves some compensate for Robert's hit on him.

My response to Smog:

I just forwarded you the message you sent to me in response to the Robert issue. YOU told me Stars would get his compensation... we are still waiting. See the small problem I have there? Mainly that you told me one thing and that has not yet come true....

Now.... I will look at Stars hit on Castravate in my own time, since by my watch its the 18th of Febuary now and the hit was done on the 15th... meaning he's got untill the 22nd of Febuary.

Finally: I ll tell you right now given TIE & TOC both signed a policy & mujengen have yet to unsign it... that as far as I m concerned if the hit was legitimate inside of that policy then it was legitimate - regardless of what Mujengen's policy says.

That said... I suspect it WON'T be legitimate even under the TIE/TOC policy agreement but still... if we are going to decide on something then we ll go by the policy BOTH sides agreed on. Its a matter of principle.

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Anyway, as for your "compensate Castravate or we re gonna find some other way to find justice" comment - you have 3 days to return what Robert stole from Stars before The Imperium finds "some other way" of finding justice ourselves from Mujengen.

Push us and we ll more than happily push back.

Smog's Response:

Stars will get his compensation from Robert. Which part you don't get? It's not Mujengan's problem that Robert deleted his account.
On the other hand, stars is a The imperium member, and following any policy that you want, he's done a bad hit on castravete. And he has to pay back the kuwal + casualties. Is that clear, or do I have to draw it for you?

My Response:

Lol, actually no its not clear in the slightest. Lets see:

1.) Not once has you, or anyone else, actually told me what Castravate is supposed to recieve. You ve demanded *something*, pointed me to a list of calculations to do and expected me to work them out.

Well screw that for a laugh. You want compensation, YOU do the calculations and get back to me with a exact figure - that way there won't be any confusion in the event Castravate does recieve compensation. I ll be damned if he gets compensation & you lot then pull a fast-one and claim its wrong.

Give me a exact figure... something none of you have done so yet. Its not exactly unreasonable for us to refuse to provide compensation when noone's even provided a figure in the first place.

2.) You basically threaten The Imperium with war over a single farming hit when Mujengen has yet to compensate The Imperium for a farming hit done by your members.

Oh well... I think you know exactly what The Imperium's response will be if you don't compensate for the hit by Robert If we compensate Castravate. I also think you know exactly what is going to happen if you keep threatening us.

Myself and the rest of The Imperium haven't armed up big strikes for shits and giggles. Compensate for Roberts hit.

My Second message:

Since I m feeling especially generous and since the issue concerning what happens when a member does something to a alliance your alliance has a agreement with, then leaves it, has *never* been discussed.... then I ll agree to drop the Roberts compensation issue.

However, consider this a official notification that The Imperium hereby withdraws from the TIE/TOC policy and has adopted our own policy.

You can see it on my MOTD. For future reference - starting now - if ever a repeat of this occurs Mujengen we ll be expecting Mujengen to make the repayment. You know The Imperium well enough to know we can and will go to war over such a issue.

Anyway, if you expect Castravate to be compensated you ll need to give me a exact figure.

Cheers

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The bit in red I ve decided I can no longer guarantee (and am *now* via this topic informing T.O.C as such). At the time I was still operating under the confused belief Roberts had merely done a attack outside of the farming policy... and not a actual massing.

I also neglected to discuss any of this with the Imperium SHC since its only happened throughout all of today before & after work, with my being on msn for the first time & chance now while typing this.

Smog's response:

Stars owes Castravete 7.6 billion

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Thats the situation.

I m putting it here so *everyone* can be advised about it - including *all* of T.O.C since I suspect Kenzu, World Republic & most of Mujengen are completely oblivious to it. Here's your chance to be made aware.

I m in discussion with the rest of the Imperium on how best to resolve the Roberts issue... noone is denying Stars hit was in breach of the policy & should be compensated for (& ordinarily would be without any second thought). The only issue is why should we compensate Mujengen for a single unprofitable hit while they refuse to compensate The Imperium for a whole series of actual hostile actions performed by one of their members - breaking the TIE-TOC peace agreement.

* interesting turn of events *

So let me summarise:

Robert sabotaged stars after a fair hit, and Imperium asked Robert for compensation.
stars farmed castravete against policy and Mujengan asked stars for compensation.

Both agreed to pay compensation, however Robert deleted his account.

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Here is my opinion how things should be solved.

DIPLOMACY
First of all when talking to each other I recommend not threatening to mass the other if they don't pay. (It's obvious that those who don't pay will be massed, there is no need to stress it. You should mention to mass someone only if they reject paying compensation, or take too long)

WHAT SHOULD ATTACKERS ALLIANCE LEADERS DO:
They should ask the attacker (who is their member) to pay compensation, and if he rejects paying, or doesnt pay on time, they should boot him from the alliance and allow others to do their job and mass the person who doesnt pay.

WHAT SHOULD VICTIMS ALLIANCE LEADERS DO:
They should provide the necessary assistance in massing the attacker if he doesnt compensate the victim.

POSSIBILITY OF A SPY AT WORK:
This is a unprecedented situation where both of the involved alliances are attackers and victims at the same time, with the twist that a player deleted his account. We should also take into account that players usually don't delete their accounts and this could theoretically be a move made by a spy to get TOC and TIE into a war with each other. The motive could be anything, it could be weakening of the powerhouses, but it could be also simply the joy for a player who doesn't want to play AW anymore to have some fun reading the forums of what war he has caused.

HOW TO SOLVE THIS:
There are obviously 2 cases and both have to be solved independently, because they involve different pairs of players, namely castravete-stars and stars-robert.

CASTRAVETE-STARS
As for Castravete and stars, while I understand that stars is upset that Robert cant compensate him anymore, it is not castravete's fault that Robert didn't compensate stars. Castravete has full right to get compensation from stars, and stars agreed to pay, however ian said that it has not been said how much has to be paid. Smog said it's 7.6 billion. Now all that has to be done is for 7.6 billion compensation to be paid. That's all.

STARS-ROBERT
As for the stars and Robert case, deleting the account is pretty much the same as saying that he doesnt want to pay. Mujengan should kick him from the alliance, and Imperium mass him. Since he deleted his account he isnt member of Mujengan anymore and his is completely destroyed. De facto same as being completely massed with no cost for Imperium. Since there is no risk that Robert will make a bad hit again this case is already closed too.

Final words:
If a member engages in hostile missions and his alliance condones his action and allows others to mass him for his misconduct, then the alliance shouldn't be made responsible for his actions. There is however no reason why compensation should be asked from the alliance, except one wishes to deteriorate the relations with the alliance or even wishes to escalate things into war. If however the alliance incites the member to engage in hostile missions, then the alliance should be made fully accountable. This however isn't the case.

Ian makes it sound like there could be an alliance war over 7.6 billion kuwal not paid for a illegit hit. Starting an alliance war for this wouldn't be clever.
From legal standpoint Castravete deserves to get his compensation, and from economic standpoint, stars will lose much more than 7.6 billion kuwal if he doesnt pay (no matter if this will lead to an alliance war or not). That's two reasons why he should be paid.

Except Kenzu your ignoring the small issue that there was a peace treaty between TIE & TOC - and while that peace treaty was never completed, about the only thing which was agreed was sabbing & assassinating = hostile.

Roberts actions violated that treaty & Mujengen promised compensation while keeping him in their alliance. He then goes and quits BEFORE Mujengen removed him and BEFORE he provided the compensation required.

That makes its Mujengen's responsibility to rectify the damage one of their members has done - failure to do so means basically Mujengen has broken the peace treaty with T.I.E and performed hostile actions against one of our members - something we cannot and will not ignore.

Right now NOONE has been punished for the violation and the victim of the hostile attacks has NOT been compensated.

The damage by someone acting under Mujengen's banner remains unrectified. By his deleting The Imperium did not have the opportunity to recieve compensation from Roberts *OR* respond to his violation as per our right to use force.

Simply put: The damage inflicted on The Imperium by Mujengen remains uncompensated, and neither has The Imperium had any opportunity or chance to take measures to retaliate to this damage. No justice has been reached for the hostile conduct.

This is NO different to if a TOC member breaks someone's farming policy and does not have SS - in such an event the alliance in question would have to compensate on his behalf (as has happened in the past).

Either way - we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Its Mujengen's decision.

Oh, and almost forgot:

Kenzu wrote:Ian makes it sound like there could be an alliance war over 7.6 billion kuwal not paid for a illegit hit. Starting an alliance war for this wouldn't be clever.
From legal standpoint Castravete deserves to get his compensation, and from economic standpoint, stars will lose much more than 7.6 billion kuwal if he doesnt pay (no matter if this will lead to an alliance war or not). That's two reasons why he should be paid.

From a legal standpoint Stars deserves to get his compensation and from a economic standpoint Mujengen will loose a lot more if they don't pay (no matter if this will lead to an alliance war or not). Thats 2 reasons why the compensation should be paid.

See... we can play that line ourselves. Especially when we ve ALREADY said Castravate will get his compensation... as soon as Stars gets his.

No Compensation for Stars.... well if Mujengen won't honour a agreement and compensate for hostile actions, I ll be damned if The Imperium will honour the same agreement.

Its not us refusing to pay compensation - we re merely refusing to pay compensation IF Mujengen doesn't pay what they owe. There IS a difference.

Incidentally... if there is going to be a alliance war its not going to be over a 7.6billion hit as you seem to think - its going to be because a member of Mujengen broke the peace treaty and launched a whole series of hostile offensive actions against The Imperium.... something Mujengen refuses to compensate for.

I honestly don't understand why it is so hard to understand.... Sabbing & assassinating = Hostile Action. Hostile Action = Act of War.

Not difficult really is it?

A member represents his alliance. Not just the leader. As such if members misbehave the alliance CAN be held responsible. That's up to the victim. Stars has been partially massed by a Muj member. There's no way around that. Either Robert or Muj should compensate Stars. We don't care who. But compensation IS in order. If this will happen then stars will compensate castra. For sure.

Oh and before anyone decides to point something out - If the situation would be the other way around I would PERSONALLY pay the damages.

curumo wrote:A member represents his alliance. Not just the leader. As such if members misbehave the alliance CAN be held responsible. That's up to the victim. Stars has been partially massed by a Muj member. There's no way around that. Either Robert or Muj should compensate Stars. We don't care who. But compensation IS in order. If this will happen then stars will compensate castra. For sure.

Oh and before anyone decides to point something out - If the situation would be the other way around I would PERSONALLY pay the damages.

When The Marauders asked for repayment for a hit Stars did... my response back to Nimras was literally "set the broker and I ll accept".

The same would apply to T.O.C if they treated us as equals. Instead they demand compensation and yet refuse to provide any when it comes to one of their own members doing something wrong - even more so when it comes to something so serious as a half-massing.

Given we ve already repeatedly stated we ll pay what Stars owes - which means someone else with SS will have to do so on his behalf - its completely beyond me why Mujengen refuses to take a similar level of responsibility for their members actions as which we have. Not to mention its a complete violation of the peace treaty TIE & TOC had....

Lol ToC, Muj and Kenzu may i refere you to following LINE:

Alliance responsibility for members: 48 hours after they leave the alliance.
Due to conduct of players. Alliances will be responsible for the actions of former members for 48 hours after last known to be in the alliance.

This is our Policy.

That means had ROBERT been part of TM even tho he DELETED are we as a alliance responsible for his action.

SO are MUJ weather they like it or NOT.

Robert misbehaved while being in Muj so MUJ owes As far i am concerned TIE compensation.

But yet again like with TM and Muj issues before Muj triese dishonourable to get out of paying with false claimse and Kenzu and WR helps them.

Way to go ToC and Kenzu NOT your so fake.

ian wrote:

curumo wrote:A member represents his alliance. Not just the leader. As such if members misbehave the alliance CAN be held responsible. That's up to the victim. Stars has been partially massed by a Muj member. There's no way around that. Either Robert or Muj should compensate Stars. We don't care who. But compensation IS in order. If this will happen then stars will compensate castra. For sure.

Oh and before anyone decides to point something out - If the situation would be the other way around I would PERSONALLY pay the damages.

When The Marauders asked for repayment for a hit Stars did... my response back to Nimras was literally "set the broker and I ll accept".

The same would apply to T.O.C if they treated us as equals. Instead they demand compensation and yet refuse to provide any when it comes to one of their own members doing something wrong - even more so when it comes to something so serious as a half-massing.

Given we ve already repeatedly stated we ll pay what Stars owes - which means someone else with SS will have to do so on his behalf - its completely beyond me why Mujengen refuses to take a similar level of responsibility for their members actions as which we have. Not to mention its a complete violation of the peace treaty TIE & TOC had....

And when someone comes to us with this guy broke your policy which as we demand is send to Me, Sea and SA47 the answer would be if the person sending the message has done the correct calculation fast and swift set the broker and its DONE.

And the fact that TIE honours it fast and swift but Muj does not makes me wonder Kenzu tho in this case stepped in but why are you not stepping in here and show some class and honour?

Thanks Nimras for the support, but we've taken matters into our own hands.

At this point Muj's prime fighters' accounts have been massed by a TIE effort. Preliminary report states that Muj has lost over 3 m uu in the first wave. We'll post details later.

As of now the TIE - Muj war is on.

The reason? Pretty much the culmination of the events that happened in the last months - ending with the massing of Stars. He is one of TIE. And as Nimras pointed out in the clause - it WAS your responsibility to handle the situation. We would have accepted compensation. You chose not to give it. Now we've taken matters into our own hands.

Bottom line - nobody masses a TIE member unprovoked and gets away with it. One way or another - we will get justice. Simple as that.

curumo wrote:Thanks Nimras for the support, but we've taken matters into our own hands.

At this point Muj's prime fighters' accounts have been massed by a TIE effort. Preliminary report states that Muj has lost over 3 m uu in the first wave. We'll post details later.

As of now the TIE - Muj war is on.

The reason? Pretty much the culmination of the events that happened in the last months - ending with the massing of Stars. He is one of TIE. And as Nimras pointed out in the clause - it WAS your responsibility to handle the situation. We would have accepted compensation. You chose not to give it. Now we've taken matters into our own hands.

Bottom line - nobody masses a TIE member unprovoked and gets away with it. One way or another - we will get justice. Simple as that.

Curumo the clause i pointed to was TM because we KNOW that a member of our alliance is our responsebility meaning if they do something bad and we are contacted accordenly to our policy then we will look at a way to solve it as its still our member.

Where here we even have a clear proff that Muj says yes it was wrong it will be repayed they say the member in question will do it but since the member desided not to their word claiming it will be payed is a word they have to honour even tho their member will not.

I guess treating me as an unequal shows MUJ to not constantly make threats, I asked peacefully and have not had retaliated PERIOD. This all was led by your own leader SMOG as he refused to assist in any way, when asked politely.

stars wrote:I guess treating me as an unequal shows MUJ to not constantly make threats, I asked peacefully and have not had retaliated PERIOD. This all was led by your own leader SMOG as he refused to assist in any way, when asked politely.

Why do you think you have been treated as an unequal? Do you know any similar situation, where someone else was involved in which Smog treated that person differently?
If not, then don't say it's unequal treatment.

As far as I know this is the first time something like this happened. Never before did any alliance pay for someone who massed a player before leaving the game. So why expect payment this time?
In fact I don't even think there was a case of a member of an alliance hitting someone from outside the alliance before leaving.

Kenzu wrote:

stars wrote:I guess treating me as an unequal shows MUJ to not constantly make threats, I asked peacefully and have not had retaliated PERIOD. This all was led by your own leader SMOG as he refused to assist in any way, when asked politely.

Why do you think you have been treated as an unequal? Do you know any similar situation, where someone else was involved in which Smog treated that person differently?
If not, then don't say it's unequal treatment.

As far as I know this is the first time something like this happened. Never before did any alliance pay for someone who massed a player before leaving the game. So why expect payment this time?
In fact I don't even think there was a case of a member of an alliance hitting someone from outside the alliance before leaving.

As a member of a neutral party it does sound a little unfair. If someone breaches a policy and then deletes their account, it doesn't take away the damages that were done does it?

Paladius: thats why our policy has a line it about that

Paladius wrote:

Kenzu wrote:

stars wrote:I guess treating me as an unequal shows MUJ to not constantly make threats, I asked peacefully and have not had retaliated PERIOD. This all was led by your own leader SMOG as he refused to assist in any way, when asked politely.

Why do you think you have been treated as an unequal? Do you know any similar situation, where someone else was involved in which Smog treated that person differently?
If not, then don't say it's unequal treatment.

As far as I know this is the first time something like this happened. Never before did any alliance pay for someone who massed a player before leaving the game. So why expect payment this time?
In fact I don't even think there was a case of a member of an alliance hitting someone from outside the alliance before leaving.

As a member of a neutral party it does sound a little unfair. If someone breaches a policy and then deletes their account, it doesn't take away the damages that were done does it?

Unfair or unequal? That's a difference.

It's always unfair to get massed without massing others. And no one is arguing about that.
We are discussing if it's unequal treatment or not. And not if it's unfair.

At the same time I'd like to add it's also unfair to pay what one has not done. Smog didnt harm anyone and it would be unfair if he pays for something he didnt do and couldnt prevent.

Well I guess that shows just how much integrity you have for your alliance and how much respect you have for other alliances thinking that way.

@ Kenzu

How about Smog demanding compensation from Stars?
He's unable to pay due to lacking FSS.

How about Smog demanding compensation from ME/TIE for Stars because Stars is unable to pay?

He seemed happy enough to basically threaten war unless I paid & took responsibility for my members actions... who is unable to pay (just like Roberts!!!!!).

Yet when it comes to his taking responsibility for HIS members actions who also is unable to pay... he point blank refuses to.

Not only that, lets look at the difference in the "crime" committed shall we:

Stars = A barely (about 200million) profitable hit on Castravate (the victim).

Punishment: Stars gets zero'd unless he pays.... he can't pay... at which point when Smog realises this he demands I pay or face Mujengan finding "some other way to make justice" (read: War/hostile acts against TIE).

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& on the other-side:

Roberts/Mujengan masses Stars via performing a number of assassination/sabotage missions on him - something blatantly hostile resulting in far more damage to the victim (Stars) than in the other example... and what happens?

Nothing. Mujengan continues to demand compensation for a far more minor event while refusing compensation for a far more serious event. They demand TIE pay up for our member & be held accountable for his actions... and yet refuse to pay up for their member or be held accountable for their actions.

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Finally, lets look at the extent either side was willing to reach a compromise:

TIE = Fully Willing to pay Castravate/Mujengen their fully compensation as soon as we get ours. Repeatedly message Mujengan asking for it and expressing our opinion/view on their "stance" on not paying compensation.

Mujengan = Completely unwilling to pay TIE our compensation yet demanding their's. TIE has until the 22nd of Febuary before Mujengen takes hostile action against it (Stars = member of TIE, thus IS T.I.E) - as specifically stated by Smog in HIS message to me (2nd message he sent to me before I d even responded to him).

Mujengan completely breaks off communication from 18th Febuary and does not respond to messages from TIE.

So, to summarise:

-TIE is willing to take responsibility for its members actions & who is unable to pay, and pay on his behalf - as demanded by Mujengan (failure to do so = war).

- Mujengan is NOT willing to take responsibility for their member (who is unable to pay) far more hostile/damaging actions or to pay on their behalf.

- Mujengan issues a timed ultimatum (7 days after Smog's hit on the 15th Febuary = 22nd Febuary) for the compensation to be paid or basically face war (Star getting made statless/ "other justice" being found)

- TIE issues NO timed ultimatum and informs Mujengen and other members of TOC (Kenzu) in no uncertain terms that failure to compensate = war.

- TIE makes a final effort to get a response from Mujengan via messaging asking for a last time whether Mujengan will pay back the compensation.

- Mujengan refuses to even respond.

- 24hours after TIE's last message without a response, TIE strikes Mujengan for 3 reasons:

1.) A series of hostile actions were made against The Imperium by forces at the time under the command of Mujengan, resulting in damage to Imperium forces. This WAS in violation of the most basic part of the TIE-TOC peace agreement... NO hostile actions!

2.) Mujengan refuses point blank to take ANY responsibility for their forces actions or to offer ANY form of compensation/reimbursement to the TIE victim

3.) Mujengan issued a timed ultimatum (22nd Febuary) at which point if we failed to comply with their demands (Compensation for Castravate paid by myself/someone in TIE) they would use hostile military force against members of The Imperium.

We have EVERY right to defend ourselves.

Not only did Mujengan break the peace treaty and refuse to compensate for that violation or even offer a single apology... they proceeded to state in no uncertain terms hostile force would be used against TIE and issued a demand with a deadline.

Basing our strike on point 1 its simple legitimate retaliation for the violation of the peace treaty.

Basing our strike on point 2 its simple legitimate retaliation for the violation of the peace treaty & the refusal to compensate for the damages inflicted.

Basing our strike on point 3 its a preemptive strike being launched with 100% certainty that Mujengan was going to initiate hostilities against TIE, given Smog (Mujengen's leader) is the one who said a TIE member would be made statless and even gave a very specific time limit to comply with Mujengan's demands.

Either way, whichever way you want to look at it - TIE hit Mujengan and had every right to do so.

The rest of T.O.C's intervention in this war is merely TOC supporting a hostile offensive war initiated by forces under Mujengan command (violation of the peace treaty) with these hostilities confirmed by Mujengan's leadership's refusal to compensate these damages and reinforced further by the issuing of a ultimatum & demand... failure to comply with which would result in official Mujengan hostile action being taken.

T.O.C is the one's who went on the offensive - not T.I.E:

- T.O.C launched a series of hostile actions against TIE first.
- T.O.C issued a timed ultimatum & demand against TIE (TIE didn't) & specifically stated use of force against TIE if we didn't comply.
- T.O.C refuses to compensate for hostile actions performed against T.I.E

The Imperium merely took Mujengan/T.O.C up on its threats & actions... and responded.

If you guys were too stupid to realise, after over a year of dealing with The Imperium and having witnessed no less than 2 wars launched by us (the first WR war technically initiated by WR since they attacked first lol) - that threatening us with war AFTER attacking us would result in a massive military response... then well, yeah you were idiots.

We don't tolerate unprevoked hostile attacks on us

We hate alliances which refuse to take responsibility for their members actions.

We absolutely hate it when alliances are one sided (I.e. our protests to some of WR's various unfair/bullying/one sided skirmishes against those new players during the time before TIE rose to power)

We will simply go to war when we suspect we may be about to be attacked (First TIE-TOC war)... except in this case, we know full well since Smog himself said it and gave us a dead-line.

It was T.O.C's which brought this situation up - from your members hostile actions, from your leadership demanding compensation while refusing to give any (Before you started demanding compensation TIE was happy to right off Roberts debt inexchange for Star not compensating Castravate) & from your leadership outright threatening TIE & issuing a ultimatum, demand & deadline to comply by.

War is something T.I.E prosper's in. Our members always vote in favour of it... and always enjoy it. Activity, team work and communication sky-rocket during war, in T.I.E. The longer a war goes on.... the longer TIE has to work through TOC's huge amount of mostly poorly teched/prepared players inflicting disproportionate losses.

Can the same be said for T.O.C?

@ Kenzu
unfairness - partiality that is not fair or equitable. Also equal and equitable are both synonyms for the word fair. With that being said unequal and unfair mean the same thing.

@ian, you dont have to pay for stars illegal farm hit.
you are not responsible for his bad hit.

he has to pay for it. he is not a new player and he knows how farming works. He took the risk and made a bad hit. If he told us that he has no SS but would like to solve this problem, we would have found a solution. But since you paid, it was not necessary.

First TOC-TIE war has started by the agression of Imperium! In your post you wrote the opposite, but that's wrong.

I am sure that the first hits were roberts, when he WAS ingame and WAS in Muj.
But those know don't know I am sure kenzu you can show them the "other" light.

Kenzu wrote:@ian, you dont have to pay for stars illegal farm hit.
you are not responsible for his bad hit.

he has to pay for it. he is not a new player and he knows how farming works. He took the risk and made a bad hit. If he told us that he has no SS but would like to solve this problem, we would have found a solution. But since you paid, it was not necessary.

First TOC-TIE war has started by the agression of Imperium! In your post you wrote the opposite, but that's wrong.

Erm... i don't think i wrote that anywhere Go re-check

Lol kenzu. Wow. Why do you keep trying to defend Muj when it was them obviously in the wrong. So lets say I mass 5 of your biggest players because I built a 200bil strike and then I quit afterward/deleted? You are saying you would just sit back and take it because I was not in my alliance anymore? If you say yes you are so full of s***.

I laugh and pity all remarks made my Kenzu its just SO SAD what his little mind has in there. Seriously we point out MANY MANY TIMES over and over, it was MUJ's fault due to a member massing me.

HE CLAIMS!!!! TIE IS THE AGGRESSOR!!! FOR THE WIN!!!

JUST BAN ME AGAIN so I stop talking crap about your little brother, ADMIN! He just doesn't seem to amaze me AT ALL. Predictable in all remarks to his intelligence. LALALA Ban incoming I already know. Blah blah blah.

Chill Winstan. Stars, my friend, no need to get riled up so much. You and me both know how things went down, so no need for you to get so riled up over this

Everyone with a half brain knows that in this case we ain't the aggressor. The facts remain.

Robert (Muj) partially massed Stars (TIE). We reacted after all diplomatic negotiations failed. It's this simple.

There's NO bending this truth - I know cause I'm pretty good at bending the truth myself.

curumo wrote:Chill Winstan. Stars, my friend, no need to get riled up so much. You and me both know how things went down, so no need for you to get so riled up over this

Everyone with a half brain knows that in this case we ain't the aggressor. The facts remain.

Robert (Muj) partially massed Stars (TIE). We reacted after all diplomatic negotiations failed. It's this simple.

There's NO bending this truth - I know cause I'm pretty good at bending the truth myself.

I


<3



U.

stars your 1 day ban was pretty much fair... had nothing to do with the target of your offensive language.

admin is protecting his own forums, not his own brother...

just chill out a bit and think of that...