PTR

Just gunna take this opportunity to also add,

any argument you make for keeping PTR, I can show you where it falls short, hurts the game, is downright stupid/idiotic, completely unnecessary, will backfire, does not meet its objective, meets unintended objectives, and any other way formulation of words that basically says

PTR is going to mass AW


I rest my case, for now, until someone replies. I promise you, I am more logical than you think. I am interested in going in a 1v1 bout with the Adminship of the game where we can publicly (under everyone's eyes but no one's opinion) discuss the game.

One thread for the discussion, a 2nd thread for viewer comments. This will provide us the opportunity for Admin and I to attack each issue at hand, one by one, making sure no points are overlooked and all has been addressed.

Sound neat to you Martin? This means no Kenzu or Nomad, btw. Martin, I am sure by now you know my ability and my reasoning and I'm sure, knowing this, you're interested in my idea. You know just as well as I do that we'll be able to come to a conclusion that will BENEFIT and SECURE the game.

you can do that no by pm/msn so a public display was/is not needed.


It is not admins responsibility to defens his game, it is your responsibility to come up with a better idea if you want something changed.


Would love to see the conversation tho.

Nomad wrote:

Kenzu wrote:

1It would be unfair for a person to collect say 100 billion from his alliance mates, keep them for a month and then distribute 100 billion to his alliance.
Why? Because he could have used them to grow faster, but didnt share any of this with his alliance, and his alliance mates grew slower because of what they have sent to him.



2Problem is it's hard to check how much has been paid for resources, since one can't be looking into paypal accounts of players.
It's impossible to make sure that all trades will be under supervision, but it is possible for those who voluntarily want it supervised with a middle man, for example to make sure that no scams happen.

1I'd like to point out the underlined phrase. Also would be willing to suggest the "alliance funds" have to stay liquid. Meaning he can not spend them on himself. The better idea would be to have an alliance feature that holds the resources so no one gets use of them during "storage". But it is still madness and ruins the idea of an alliance program to begin with under the present rules of "loaning" funds now but being charged a greater rate when they are returned later. There is a solution, its just getting Admin to actually understand, realise, and act on the fact there is a problem,,, well not problem but a better way.

2I do not know coding, but I would assume there would be a way to code it so that when the Broker is made INGAME and is accepted INGAME that admin could see and record it. I mean if the broker is for 10$ for 3mill UU I really don't see whats had about finding the information needed? But I'll leave that to the coders.

1

Yes and that's exactly why there has to be an alliance bank which will take care of that, and not a player hoarding the resources. This way it will be clear that he didnt use them to grow himself.
An alliance bank allows more freedom for alliance members since the bank will not not have a PTR, afterall a bank can't use the resources to grow itself.

2

I don't see your point, but 3 million UU for 10$ SS is feeding.
All resources that exceed the double amount of what you could get by paying 10$ are feeding resources.
If 10$ can give you 400.000 UU, and someone pays 1 million UU for it, then obviously it has to count like 200.000 UU have been transfered for no price under this regulation.

Mystake wrote:DEREGULATE ALLIANCE TEAMWORK


ADERANWARS: THE LONEWOLF'S PLAYGROUND


orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ADERANWARS: come play a TEAM BASED game!


*COUGH* *COUGH*

Marting, you want AW to grow? For AW to grow, WE need to grow!




edit: I'd like to announce my bid to run as President of the AderanWorld (AKA "AW"... hehe :p)

How does PTR influence you as a non cheating, non feeding player?
I also have a PTR and I have never left the green area, and I always play the same way.

The PTR doesn't restrict anyone who is playing according to rules and doesn't do anything that wasn't intended for Aderan Wars.
There is also a 2nd possibility, Aderan Wars without PTR, where people who cross the line will simply get banned immediately.
I think you should be actually happy that you can see the PTR, as it allows you to foresee a permaban before it's too late and act accordingly.

Kenzu wrote:

1

Yes and that's exactly why there has to be an alliance bank which will take care of that, and not a player hoarding the resources. This way it will be clear that he didnt use them to grow himself.
An alliance bank allows more freedom for alliance members since the bank will not not have a PTR, afterall a bank can't use the resources to grow itself.

2

I don't see your point, but 3 million UU for 10$ SS is feeding.
All resources that exceed the double amount of what you could get by paying 10$ are feeding resources.
If 10$ can give you 400.000 UU, and someone pays 1 million UU for it, then obviously it has to count like 200.000 UU have been transfered for no price under this regulation.

Kenzu, there is no alliance bank, thats what we are trying to get? The example is to show that admin and PTR has completely killed alliance funds because the only way to do them now is to use players and PTR kills them. I think we agree, you just dont understand the example made.

2. Sorry, bad math, I meant 300,000 UU for 10$ it was the going BM price rounded off at the time i made the post. Example meant to show that IF you make a trade for the apprpriate $$ for resources that the game CAN recognize it without going into anyones PP account. The trade has to fall into the bracket that would not alter your PTR. If it is far outside that braket then it does infact alter your PTR, once PTR hits red levels it stops non "to the game" trades$$ trades until you get back in the green.

Nomad wrote:

Kenzu wrote:

1

Yes and that's exactly why there has to be an alliance bank which will take care of that, and not a player hoarding the resources. This way it will be clear that he didnt use them to grow himself.
An alliance bank allows more freedom for alliance members since the bank will not not have a PTR, afterall a bank can't use the resources to grow itself.

2

I don't see your point, but 3 million UU for 10$ SS is feeding.
All resources that exceed the double amount of what you could get by paying 10$ are feeding resources.
If 10$ can give you 400.000 UU, and someone pays 1 million UU for it, then obviously it has to count like 200.000 UU have been transfered for no price under this regulation.

Kenzu, there is no alliance bank, thats what we are trying to get? The example is to show that admin and PTR has completely killed alliance funds because the only way to do them now is to use players and PTR kills them. I think we agree, you just dont understand the example made.

2. Sorry, bad math, I meant 300,000 UU for 10$ it was the going BM price rounded off at the time i made the post. Example meant to show that IF you make a trade for the apprpriate $$ for resources that the game CAN recognize it without going into anyones PP account. The trade has to fall into the bracket that would not alter your PTR. If it is far outside that braket then it does infact alter your PTR, once PTR hits red levels it stops non "to the game" trades$$ trades until you get back in the green.

1
I know there is no alliance bank, and I also want it. I dont think PTR "kills it", restricting yes, but not killing. There won't be a problem if people fill the bank with less than 20% of their production. Also, the bank is only for keeping, so obviously they would get it sooner or later. An alliance produces massive income each turn, a simple tax will fill the bank fast and won't influence PTR much. I don't see any serious problem here.

2
Send a broker with resources and ask for an SS in return. If you do a trade this way, you will get SS, pay resources and it won't influence your PTR, as long as you pay a reasonable amount of resources.
Pay no more than 2 times more of what 10$ can get you on the cash market and you are fine. Right now it's no more than 588.000 untrained.
Everything above will influence PTR.

point number 2 forces you to give your money to the game, just saying.
what if I wanna sell 10$ in resources and keep it for myself?

only admin get to make money here? i know admin would disagree on that point.

@ kenzu,,, before I respond any more I need to understand what your talking about, because we appear to be talking about 2 different things.

@ mystake and Kenzu on point 2
Kenzu, you totally missed my point
Mystake, my suggestion IS Exactly what you said. Allow 2 players to trade. 1 using $$, and one using ingame resources. Just make it so the PP is used in the ingame transfer. Just like it is used when sending $$ to admin, except the Broker is how the game knows the trade happened and how to adjust the PTR. If I want to sell you 10$ worth of UU for 10$. You set up a broker for XXX UU for 10$. It links you to PP and when the $$ is transfered the deal is completed ingame. All it does is enforce the 100$ per 45 day limit on P2P trades as well as P2Admin trades.


*Disclainer*
I'm not saying this can even be done, I am not a coder. It just seems to me that it should be doable considering what we can already do now

Mystake wrote:Just gunna take this opportunity to also add,
any argument you make for keeping PTR, I can show you where it falls short, hurts the game, is downright stupid/idiotic, completely unnecessary, will backfire, does not meet its objective, meets unintended objectives, and any other way formulation of words that basically says

Admin has already stated that PTR is here to stay, so keep arguing your case as I want to see if you can get him to change his mind, I understand why it was put in place, I also understand that the PTR system isn't perfect, but until something better comes along, then I guess that we are stuck with it...

Ok I am now thoroughly confused about what you are all arguing about here and I think that it's time I asked the following question of the players.

What exactly does PTR do?

Admin and Kenzu, please wait for some responses before answering yourselves.

In the meantime perhaps Admin can advise us if anyone has been banned because of PTR

Well tbh Admin Martin needs to answer that question as he is the only one who truely knows.


My understanding is that PTR is a for of regulating and controling the flow of resources from 1 account to another. Basicly stopping one sided trading, or feeding.

AFAIK there has been no bannings, but there has? I think, not positive, been warnings

no one got banned yed solely because of ptr

as king said ptr is here to stay, however there are very promising ideas coming from this topic and i will be looking into them

Mystake wrote:Just gunna take this opportunity to also add,

any argument you make for keeping PTR, I can show you where it falls short, hurts the game, is downright stupid/idiotic, completely unnecessary, will backfire, does not meet its objective, meets unintended objectives, and any other way formulation of words that basically says

PTR is going to mass AW


I rest my case, for now, until someone replies. I promise you, I am more logical than you think. I am interested in going in a 1v1 bout with the Adminship of the game where we can publicly (under everyone's eyes but no one's opinion) discuss the game.

One thread for the discussion, a 2nd thread for viewer comments. This will provide us the opportunity for Admin and I to attack each issue at hand, one by one, making sure no points are overlooked and all has been addressed.

Sound neat to you Martin? This means no Kenzu or Nomad, btw. Martin, I am sure by now you know my ability and my reasoning and I'm sure, knowing this, you're interested in my idea. You know just as well as I do that we'll be able to come to a conclusion that will BENEFIT and SECURE the game.

there's almost always unintended objectives, however I will argue that it is possible to adress all major issues in such a way that balanced and fair gameplay is allowed while clearly letting people know when they are feeding and also catering to other needs like profitable trading/other activities (like merc-ing)/cash trading

so to clarify, I do not want to have a discussion about whether or not to have PTR in the game. I know that there are many arguments for it to go, and i've heard them time and time again, and many of them I fully realize.
A monitoring system of some sort will exist, it will also be an open one so that people know where they are standing, I have little benefit from a closed system since more people banned because of their own stupidity will not help the game.

however a general discussion how to tackle the issues will be more productive than a 1on1 standoff about the merits of the existance of the system.

Nomad wrote:Well tbh Admin Martin needs to answer that question as he is the only one who truely knows.


My understanding is that PTR is a for of regulating and controling the flow of resources from 1 account to another. Basicly stopping one sided trading, or feeding.

AFAIK there has been no bannings, but there has? I think, not positive, been warnings

Well you sort of answered my question there Nomad. What I was interested in was the Players understanding of PTR not Admins.

PTR actually does nothing at all. It does not regulate or control anything. All it does do is to give each player an indication that their actions may be questionable and may come under scrutiny by Admin. Anyone playing fairly and trading fairly is going to have no issues.

The issues are not PTR it's self but rather the values used and their reasonableness and fairness. Those with SS can take action to address issues whereas those without SS can only address any issues through account growth.

Manleva wrote:The issues are not PTR it's self but rather the values used and their reasonableness and fairness. Those with SS can take action to address issues whereas those without SS can only address any issues through account growth.

How would those without SS get into PTR problems in the first place?

Admin wrote:

Manleva wrote:The issues are not PTR it's self but rather the values used and their reasonableness and fairness. Those with SS can take action to address issues whereas those without SS can only address any issues through account growth.

How would those without SS get into PTR problems in the first place?

I salute you Manleva, you bested me on that one.


At admin, buy 1 five buck SS pack, trade like mad, get whacked PTR, SS expires, now your screwed. Only way I can think of it happening.

Nomad wrote:
I salute you Manleva, you bested me on that one.

Agreed, bested me also...

Mystake wrote:point number 2 forces you to give your money to the game, just saying.
what if I wanna sell 10$ in resources and keep it for myself?

only admin get to make money here? i know admin would disagree on that point.

It's forbidden to keep playing to sell resources for cash.

But what you can do is sell your whole account for cash, keep the cash and let someone else use your account.
He will have to abandon or sell his old account though.

If you sell only a small fraction of your population, say 10%, then you can do it, as 10% will still be within allowed range of PTR.
What you can't do though is to send away more than 20% in total.

Nomad wrote:
@ mystake and Kenzu on point 2
Kenzu, you totally missed my point
Mystake, my suggestion IS Exactly what you said. Allow 2 players to trade. 1 using $$, and one using ingame resources. Just make it so the PP is used in the ingame transfer. Just like it is used when sending $$ to admin, except the Broker is how the game knows the trade happened and how to adjust the PTR. If I want to sell you 10$ worth of UU for 10$. You set up a broker for XXX UU for 10$. It links you to PP and when the $$ is transfered the deal is completed ingame. All it does is enforce the 100$ per 45 day limit on P2P trades as well as P2Admin trades.

If this was in place then we can pretty much get rid of PTR altogether and make a public statement that people can feed as much as they want if they use this approach. Declaring that 10$ has been paid is in no way a proof that 10$ have really been paid. Ever considered the possibility that someone will simply keep playing to sell his resources to others either at a much lower price, or for cross trading, or even for free to his friends, or in an extreme case, he sells it to himself, saying he paid 10$ each time, where in reality he didnt.

Such a change is an invitation for abuse.

Kenzu wrote:

Mystake wrote:point number 2 forces you to give your money to the game, just saying.
what if I wanna sell 10$ in resources and keep it for myself?

only admin get to make money here? i know admin would disagree on that point.

It's forbidden to keep playing to sell resources for cash.

But what you can do is sell your whole account for cash, keep the cash and let someone else use your account.
He will have to abandon or sell his old account though.

If you sell only a small fraction of your population, say 10%, then you can do it, as 10% will still be within allowed range of PTR.
What you can't do though is to send away more than 20% in total.

you just contradicted yourself Kenzu

No I haven't If you make 1 trade selling 10% of your account you are not braking the rules.

You get out of bad PTR by simple growth and you don't need SS to grow.

Also, please address my last point in my previous post.

Me and you are not having a conversation, and what you said may be different then what you meant, but what you Printed on the screen is a controdiction Kenzu

Period.

You did not say

If you make 1 trade selling 10% of your account you are not braking the rules.

You get out of bad PTR by simple growth and you don't need SS to grow.

What you DID say was

It's forbidden to keep playing to sell resources for cash.

followed by

If you sell only a small fraction of your population, say 10%, then you can do it,

You just clearly stated IT IS FORBIDDEN TO KEEP PLAYING TO SELL RESORCES FOR CASH but then stated IT OK A FINE TO KEEP PLAYING TO SELL RESOURCES FOR CASH AS LONG AS YOU MEET XXX RULES ABOUT DOING SO.

Thats a contridiction

I'll not respond to this anymore as it is taking away from a fruitful conversation.

Kenzu wrote:No I haven't If you make 1 trade selling 10% of your account you are not braking the rules.

You get out of bad PTR by simple growth and you don't need SS to grow.

Also, please address my last point in my previous post.

yes, you did Kenzu, whether you realize it or not, your statements do contradict one another... If a player sells 10% of his account, grows only to sell another 10% later, & repeats this several times over, then as far as I am concerned then that player is only playing to sell resources. & there are plenty of players that do just that... as for the last part of your post, I really did not understand what you are talking about.

Nomad wrote:

Admin wrote:

Manleva wrote:The issues are not PTR it's self but rather the values used and their reasonableness and fairness. Those with SS can take action to address issues whereas those without SS can only address any issues through account growth.

How would those without SS get into PTR problems in the first place?

I salute you Manleva, you bested me on that one.


At admin, buy 1 five buck SS pack, trade like mad, get whacked PTR, SS expires, now your screwed. Only way I can think of it happening.

which is an unlikely scenario since you'd know what's about to happen when your ss runs out. so there's no need to discuss it.

If I send a new person 50k ATs to help them get going, that would put them over there 20% PTR.

That is how you screw up your PTR with out SS.

I did put in an extreme number so don't argue that, you only asked how.

seaborgium wrote:If I send a new person 50k ATs to help them get going, that would put them over there 20% PTR.
That is how you screw up your PTR with out SS.
I did put in an extreme number so don't argue that, you only asked how.

the premise was about people who want to have a legal ptr.

by saying someone willingly wants to receive a lot of resources without regard for their ptr already gets you outside that premise.

it doesn't have to be as much as I said. You could just send 100k UU and it would put them over the 20%.
Untill they start raiding/increasing UP it will be high