TM vs Muj

The thing I don't get in the discussion regarding attacking is everyone saying if people have the same techs/PB as one another whats the point in attacking etc... etc....

Surely using the different attack strategies available in the armory would influence losses between either side? Lets not forget hunt-assassin or assassinating enemy spies once the enemy assassin power is low enough....

How about partially sabbing away the enemy weapons & then attacking - killing armed supers, plus a substantial amount of unarmed supers & then weapons, while loosing less weapons/soldiers for the attacker?

How about assassinating the enemy defence forces down enough to kill the enemy assassins to then assassinate their spies?

How about utilising different weapons depending on which you value the most (kuwal or UU)?

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I actually LOVE Aderan Wars war-system. Its not like Dune-Wars, SGW or SGU where you simply need to research a handful of techs, arm a strike and then burn up about 2k attack turns untill the enemy defence weapons break & then hunt their spies.

Its a *proper* war involving skill, preparation & planning - and well thought out attacks. If you just dive straight into a fight without any of these things... then there's a very good chance you ll loose more than you kill, or run out of resources half-way through.

But thats how war's meant to be lol.

The only thing I REALLY dislike on Aderan Wars is that I feel its far too slow paced with regard to income generation. I.e. tech & assassin/covert level development have pretty much stalled across the game simply because income can't hope to match these. Same goes for unit production... and army sizes are literally creeping forward.

Such slow paced gameplay I actually feel is killing the game. Noone wants to save up literally months and months and months of their income to get the next covert level (for me to get 7,200 it ll take 27 days of continuous saving, someone 2/3's my income it ll take close to 41 days), or for entire days worth of income to get you a 1% tech-boost or 300ish U.P.

THAT is why I feel the game is slowly dieing (loosing players/active visible parts of its community).

The war system is one of AW's great advantages.... and I look forward to seeing what Airforce brings to the game .

@ Admin, I do hope you ll at least consider my points regarding the slowness of income generation on AW & how long it simply takes for more developed players to get anything meaningful developed/researched. Its something you can probably solve fairly easily via increasing the basic-income each each income type makes 3 or 4 times what it is now....

ian while I personally fully understand your point, I thought however that you were far smarter than to suggest something like simply increasing income production 3-4 fold would fix anything.

1) uu price would soar. from the current 180-200k to 800k easy. AT cost would also quadruple. That in itself is not really relevant besides the fact that it makes monitoring for resource transfers basically pointless (though it would give a good excuse to all but reset everyone's ptr to 0). What the real issue is, gets explained in 2)
2) just because you produce 4000 kuwal instead of 1000 kuwal doesn't mean that instead of putting 200 kuwal into military you're gonna put 3200 into military. People will simply get to 400% techs, get weapons level 15, and while you produce 4 times more kuwal, you're also gonna need 4 times more kuwal to buy and arm the same amount of units. and people will still put most kuwal into economy. End result, everything stays the same, except the numbers on your screen just increased several times.

anyone who played dune AND sgw will know that having each unit produce 200 kuwal instead of 100 or 50 or 30 will not make a big difference. while you'll farm 20 bil isntead of 4 bil kuwal with 2-3k units lost, the same units will still cost you 50-70% of what you had just stolen and the remaining profits will not be worth 4 times more since everything's more expensive anyway

On the other hand, I am willing to look into options of recycling military assets as they are being used so that people are willing to go into a war knowing they will be able to make their point while not requiring to spend months of their income building and rebuilding while others get ahead.

"increasing the pace" is a nice way of saying it but if anyone thinks about it carefully, it's just a ticking bomb for which no one has an actual answer ready atm.

Exactly.

If everyone is stalled now at level 12 or 13 on weapons and levels then increasing income just means everyone stalls again in 5 more levels of each.

There is suppose to be an upper limit. A plauteu or what ever, Without it no one needs to push for growth. the only thing that pushes accounts to grow is the need for more income, remove that need and no one needs to grow to get the next level.

I think the pace is fine, and TBH is much faster then many other games. I mean the game is 1 yr old and 25 to 50 mill army size is fairly common. Games like SGW didnt see these sizes until year 2 or 3.

@Ian- I understand your frustration, I feel the same way you do, but...
@Admin- I fully understand what you are saying, & agree,
@Nomad- I understand what you are saying, & agree with you as well, it is just maddening at times, but at the same time it is that aspect of the game that has me intrigued, & keeps me coming back...

Also I could be mistaken, but I've been playing AW for almost a year now, & I know that there are several players that have been playing far longer than I, I seriously was under the impression that AW was nearly 2 years old... JMO...

there was a beta test phase before the live version launched, but I think the wiki is fairly accurate

Aderan Wars - The Beginning is often referred to as Main server and launched in August 2008 as open beta, where the game has been tested and developed further.

On 1st January 2009, main server has restarted for the first and last time.

aw is over 2 years

Admin wrote:aw is over 2 years

What day was AW main "beginnings" live launch?

Nomad wrote:

Admin wrote:aw is over 2 years

What day was AW main "beginnings" live launch?

1 Jan 2009

TY. just making sure.

thank you...

ian wrote:

The only thing I REALLY dislike on Aderan Wars is that I feel its far too slow paced with regard to income generation. I.e. tech & assassin/covert level development have pretty much stalled across the game simply because income can't hope to match these. Same goes for unit production... and army sizes are literally creeping forward.

Such slow paced gameplay I actually feel is killing the game. Noone wants to save up literally months and months and months of their income to get the next covert level (for me to get 7,200 it ll take 27 days of continuous saving, someone 2/3's my income it ll take close to 41 days), or for entire days worth of income to get you a 1% tech-boost or 300ish U.P.

THAT is why I feel the game is slowly dieing (loosing players/active visible parts of its community).

The war system is one of AW's great advantages.... and I look forward to seeing what Airforce brings to the game .

@ Admin, I do hope you ll at least consider my points regarding the slowness of income generation on AW & how long it simply takes for more developed players to get anything meaningful developed/researched. Its something you can probably solve fairly easily via increasing the basic-income each each income type makes 3 or 4 times what it is now....

The only solution I see here is simply by letting the expensive tech levels be split up into multiple levels.

Example: If the next covert levels increases power by say 2000 and costs 1000 billion kuwal, it could be split up into 4 levels which will increase in total by 2000 and cost 1000 billion kuwal, like this:
+500 100 bill kuwal
next level
+500 200 bill kuwal
+500 300 bill kuwal
+500 400 bill kuwal

Basic techs could be increased after level 200 not by +1%, but for example by +0.25% to make each tech cost only one quarter of what it would cost.

This way it will be easier to advace research, since you can make more small steps, especially if you have bank problems.

I personally don't think the population is growing too slow.
Each month I can increase my population by
+1 million from UP
+2 million from raiding with my MT AT
+1.8 million from raiding with my natural AT + voting AT
An increase in population by almost 5 million is magnificent.
That's a faster increase than what increase in the whole year of playing in 2009.

Having populations double every couple of months even for big players would be an extremely bad thing, as smaller players would never be able to catch up.

Admin wrote:

On the other hand, I am willing to look into options of recycling military assets as they are being used so that people are willing to go into a war knowing they will be able to make their point while not requiring to spend months of their income building and rebuilding while others get ahead.

Having all units get wounded would be a good step forward, since it would mean that people could mass each other, while everyone would have losses decrease to maybe 60%. It would allow players to rebuild faster and mass more.
(Take an extreme case, where 90% get wounded and 10% killed, same with weapons (90% damaged to be repaired, 10% destroyed), all players could rebuild 10 times faster, mass 10 times more frequently, massing someone would cost 10 times less, but also rebuilding would cost 10 times less too.)

Another solution could be to decrease massing to 1 AT and 5 ST for all missions.

Both of these possibilities received less votes than majority, thus Aderan Wars players DON'T WANT massing to be less deadly, and DON'T WANT to be able to rebuild faster.
In other words, before changing how massing is made, the majority of players should be in favor of them. Right now they are not.

Kenzu wrote:

ian wrote:

The only thing I REALLY dislike on Aderan Wars is that I feel its far too slow paced with regard to income generation. I.e. tech & assassin/covert level development have pretty much stalled across the game simply because income can't hope to match these. Same goes for unit production... and army sizes are literally creeping forward.

Such slow paced gameplay I actually feel is killing the game. Noone wants to save up literally months and months and months of their income to get the next covert level (for me to get 7,200 it ll take 27 days of continuous saving, someone 2/3's my income it ll take close to 41 days), or for entire days worth of income to get you a 1% tech-boost or 300ish U.P.

THAT is why I feel the game is slowly dieing (loosing players/active visible parts of its community).

The war system is one of AW's great advantages.... and I look forward to seeing what Airforce brings to the game .

@ Admin, I do hope you ll at least consider my points regarding the slowness of income generation on AW & how long it simply takes for more developed players to get anything meaningful developed/researched. Its something you can probably solve fairly easily via increasing the basic-income each each income type makes 3 or 4 times what it is now....

The only solution I see here is simply by letting the expensive tech levels be split up into multiple levels.

Example: If the next covert levels increases power by say 2000 and costs 1000 billion kuwal, it could be split up into 4 levels which will increase in total by 2000 and cost 1000 billion kuwal, like this:
+500 100 bill kuwal
next level
+500 200 bill kuwal
+500 300 bill kuwal
+500 400 bill kuwal

Basic techs could be increased after level 200 not by +1%, but for example by +0.25% to make each tech cost only one quarter of what it would cost.

This way it will be easier to advace research, since you can make more small steps, especially if you have bank problems.

I personally don't think the population is growing too slow.
Each month I can increase my population by
+1 million from UP
+2 million from raiding with my MT AT
+1.8 million from raiding with my natural AT + voting AT
An increase in population by almost 5 million is magnificent.
That's a faster increase than what increase in the whole year of playing in 2009.

Having populations double every couple of months even for big players would be an extremely bad thing, as smaller players would never be able to catch up.

Admin wrote:

On the other hand, I am willing to look into options of recycling military assets as they are being used so that people are willing to go into a war knowing they will be able to make their point while not requiring to spend months of their income building and rebuilding while others get ahead.

Having all units get wounded would be a good step forward, since it would mean that people could mass each other, while everyone would have losses decrease to maybe 60%. It would allow players to rebuild faster and mass more.
(Take an extreme case, where 90% get wounded and 10% killed, same with weapons (90% damaged to be repaired, 10% destroyed), all players could rebuild 10 times faster, mass 10 times more frequently, massing someone would cost 10 times less, but also rebuilding would cost 10 times less too.)

Another solution could be to decrease massing to 1 AT and 5 ST for all missions.

Both of these possibilities received less votes than majority, thus Aderan Wars players DON'T WANT massing to be less deadly, and DON'T WANT to be able to rebuild faster.
In other words, before changing how massing is made, the majority of players should be in favor of them. Right now they are not.

I actually pretty much agree with everything you ve just said.

Regarding growing: I never meant to imply we re growing slowly in terms of army size... just income growth isn't anywhere near enough to support the costs of war or research etc...

Breaking the research, covert level etc... costs up like you said would be a pretty good solution to solve most of this issue I think - along with wounded & *possibly* reduced ST/AT consumption on massing etc...

See thats where we have to disagree. If something is a cost, then you need to save for it. If you can't save for it now, then you need to work on it till you can save for it.
Breaking up the cost just make the game "easy" the takes the skill away from really playing/planning.

A(Take an extreme case, where 90% get wounded and 10% killed, same with weapons (90% damaged to be repaired, 10% destroyed), all players could rebuild 10 times faster, mass 10 times more frequently, massing someone would cost 10 times less, but also rebuilding would cost 10 times less too.)

BAnother solution could be to decrease massing to 1 AT and 5 ST for all missions.

A. Your wrong. I t does not cost you 10 times less nor allow you to fight 10 times longer. If you rely on wounded units presently you will have to wait months to do anything. It is Impossible to effectively use wounded or to rely on them. You will be forced to use normal units and normal weapons, not wounded or reycled ones because of how slowly they become usable.

B.This is also a foolish and misguided suggestion unless you change many other systems first. Presently you make more AT then ST. This idea will make AT worthless for trade as you will always have far more AT then ST.

At the rate you are going, why not just remove the cost of war completely? Your wanting to remove the cost of UU by 90%, and remove the cost of weapons by 90% (after the intital investment)

how about this guys >
a soldier that carries an armour is less likely to die in battle.
so why don't you add an "armour technology".
it can be quite usefull: higher the research level in this tech higher the percent of soldier who do not die.
but as Nomad said, don't go as far as 90%. maybe 40-50%.

(and if anyone suggests that a soldier that uses a tank doesn't require an armour than you can call it the magic potion tech or somethin ) )

ghyogod wrote:how about this guys >
a soldier that carries an armour is less likely to die in battle.
so why don't you add an "armour technology".
it can be quite usefull: higher the research level in this tech higher the percent of soldier who do not die.
but as Nomad said, don't go as far as 90%. maybe 40-50%.

(and if anyone suggests that a soldier that uses a tank doesn't require an armour than you can call it the magic potion tech or somethin ) )

what you suggest already exists. It's called basic techs. You research them and they improve the soldiers of that type by 1% per research.
Research from 100% to 120%, and your soldiers are 20% more powerful, which also means that they are less likely to die in battle.

Nomad wrote:

A(Take an extreme case, where 90% get wounded and 10% killed, same with weapons (90% damaged to be repaired, 10% destroyed), all players could rebuild 10 times faster, mass 10 times more frequently, massing someone would cost 10 times less, but also rebuilding would cost 10 times less too.)

BAnother solution could be to decrease massing to 1 AT and 5 ST for all missions.

A. Your wrong. I t does not cost you 10 times less nor allow you to fight 10 times longer. If you rely on wounded units presently you will have to wait months to do anything. It is Impossible to effectively use wounded or to rely on them. You will be forced to use normal units and normal weapons, not wounded or reycled ones because of how slowly they become usable.

B.This is also a foolish and misguided suggestion unless you change many other systems first. Presently you make more AT then ST. This idea will make AT worthless for trade as you will always have far more AT then ST.

At the rate you are going, why not just remove the cost of war completely? Your wanting to remove the cost of UU by 90%, and remove the cost of weapons by 90% (after the intital investment)

A)
If there is a player who has say 500k in each category (att, def, spy, ass), and he has another 500k idle units.
If he masses someone with his 500k attackers, he trains his 500k idle units into soldiers, can mass again, and that's it. He burned 1 million troops, now he must rely on his economic growth.
but if 90% get wounded, then after he used 1 million troops, he doesnt have to wait for a month to get that many troops. Within 2 weeks, he will get 450k freshly healed troops and another 450k will be still healing.
It should be clear to anyone that if in addition to my UP I get units that I can train for free, I can rebuild my forces faster.

(It has been tested already. In RA, straight after being massed, I had over 150k dead, 20% of my population. My UP is 16.000, but due to the wounded, I was getting 4.000 each single day. I was fighting for a week, and all the time getting 20.000 instead of 16.000. This was a great help.)

B)
You are wrong. AT cost doesn't depend on how much massing missions cost, but only depends on farming and raiding missions. If farming and raiding still costs 10 AT, then decreasing AT cost for massing missions will make massing cheaper, which will lead to more massing.

it looks to me like this...

what we currently use is, less massing = more damage.

it seems to me that kenzu is suggesting, more massing = less damage.

if we can mass more often due to AT & ST reduction, but the damage done per attack is less then what is the point? I would much prefer to do less attacks with each attack doing more damage per hit... (example, if I slap you 20 times, you have red cheeks, if I roundhouse you 1 time, you lose teeth, see the difference?)

Kenzu wrote:

Nomad wrote:

A(Take an extreme case, where 90% get wounded and 10% killed, same with weapons (90% damaged to be repaired, 10% destroyed), all players could rebuild 10 times faster, mass 10 times more frequently, massing someone would cost 10 times less, but also rebuilding would cost 10 times less too.)

BAnother solution could be to decrease massing to 1 AT and 5 ST for all missions.

A. Your wrong. I t does not cost you 10 times less nor allow you to fight 10 times longer. If you rely on wounded units presently you will have to wait months to do anything. It is Impossible to effectively use wounded or to rely on them. You will be forced to use normal units and normal weapons, not wounded or reycled ones because of how slowly they become usable.

B.This is also a foolish and misguided suggestion unless you change many other systems first. Presently you make more AT then ST. This idea will make AT worthless for trade as you will always have far more AT then ST.

At the rate you are going, why not just remove the cost of war completely? Your wanting to remove the cost of UU by 90%, and remove the cost of weapons by 90% (after the intital investment)

A)
If there is a player who has say 500k in each category (att, def, spy, ass), and he has another 500k idle units.
If he masses someone with his 500k attackers, he trains his 500k idle units into soldiers, can mass again, and that's it. He burned 1 million troops, now he must rely on his economic growth.
but if 90% get wounded, then after he used 1 million troops, he doesnt have to wait for a month to get that many troops. Within 2 weeks, he will get 450k freshly healed troops and another 450k will be still healing.
It should be clear to anyone that if in addition to my UP I get units that I can train for free, I can rebuild my forces faster.

(It has been tested already. In RA, straight after being massed, I had over 150k dead, 20% of my population. My UP is 16.000, but due to the wounded, I was getting 4.000 each single day. I was fighting for a week, and all the time getting 20.000 instead of 16.000. This was a great help.)

B)
You are wrong. AT cost doesn't depend on how much massing missions cost, but only depends on farming and raiding missions. If farming and raiding still costs 10 AT, then decreasing AT cost for massing missions will make massing cheaper, which will lead to more massing.

A, you proved my point, Thank you. Is it faster yes, is it 10 times faster as you claimed, not even close.

B, I'll give on that one, you did say massing not all attacks which would include farming. The price for AT would drop tho, as you need no stock incase of war times, but if farming and raiding keeps its cost the same then yeah, for the most part you are right.

seaborgium wrote:See thats where we have to disagree. If something is a cost, then you need to save for it. If you can't save for it now, then you need to work on it till you can save for it.
Breaking up the cost just make the game "easy" the takes the skill away from really playing/planning.

I think you missed the point that at the moment AW is mainly stagnant with regard to tech, weapon and covert level differences between players.

I.e. most advanced players are within about 5 - 10% basic techs of one another and baring a handful, are still mainly at 5,200 level.

Kenzu's idea would add more levels, therefore more potential differences between players - helping combat the "stagnation" issue when it comes to everyone running around with relatively similar capabilities....

even if you add the ways that kenzu is talking it will still be the same group with higher levels and they will just move up easier.

kingkongfan1 wrote:it looks to me like this...

what we currently use is, less massing = more damage.

it seems to me that kenzu is suggesting, more massing = less damage.

if we can mass more often due to AT & ST reduction, but the damage done per attack is less then what is the point? I would much prefer to do less attacks with each attack doing more damage per hit... (example, if I slap you 20 times, you have red cheeks, if I roundhouse you 1 time, you lose teeth, see the difference?)

Like admin said, it doesnt matter how cheap you make the research, people will still spend similarly on it, I say it also doesn't matter how cheap you make the massing, people will in the end destroy the same.
If people think that massing is too devasatating and too expensive, it can be made cheaper this way, and allow faster rebuilding too. This doesn't however mean that less will be destroyed in a war. In the end, the devastation could still be the same, but people can enjoy fighting the war for longer, rebuilding faster, counter attacking more and so on.

I'm ok with the current system, but if majority wants to shift in this direction, then why not.

seaborgium wrote:even if you add the ways that kenzu is talking it will still be the same group with higher levels and they will just move up easier.

What are you referring to?
I was talking about something like 90% wounded and only 10% killed. It will affect everyone in the same way, and no one can "move up" here.

hes talking about buying levels in stages Kenzu

That's also what I was talking about, a bit earlier.