Re: TOC & TIE Peace Treaty Discussion

by ian Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:47 am

For the record, Kenzu's description of my policy is a tad inaccurate.

My policy is simple (albeit its a bit stronger worded than this, and will be modified to be more "peaceful") - i ask not to be farmed unless i have a large amount out (i.e. 12hours income out or something). If people ignore that request they leave me little choice but to take action against the farmer.

My policy is that if people ask me to stop farming them. I stop - unless they have 12+hours income out. Before this war I had made such an agreement with Best (who i said i wouldn't farm unless he had 20+ hours i.e. 8billion+ kuwal out) and Vaga. I also agreed not to farm Buhcorethegreat - something i ve stuck to.

So... Kenzu's representation of my policy is exstremely biased. Its treating people EXACTLY equally - asking not to be farmed, and if asked not to farm, stopping farming.

Kenzu also failed to grasp the overall point i was trying to make - what happens if 1 vs 1's happen i.e. if a TIE or TOC member decides they will not tolerate farming of themselves (even if its in their alliances policy), issues a warning and then acts to enforce that warning when that warning is ignored.

Me & Kenzu spoke about this - and its clear from his answer that if a TOC member is farming another player, and that player requests the TOC player to stop farming them, and the TOC player ignores the request and gets massed as a result - TOC will then mass the "aggressor" (As Kenzu defined it).

In my eyes someone who chooses to farm actives does so running the risk they ll get massed by the person they are farming. Someone who chooses to farm an active player who's warned them not to farm them does so knowing full-well the risks they run if they get massed.

By choosing to ignore a warning that farmer has basically consented to getting massed. They ve made the choice to proceed ahead with their actions knowing the consequences.

What T.O.C is proposing is basically to encourage their members to farm without taking responsibility for their actions or the consequences of those actions. Their active members will be free to ignore requests to stop at their will and if anyone should dare lift a finger to stop those farmers (damaging) conduct they ll get massed by all of T.O.C.

How is that acceptable? If a player chooses to ignore the request of a active player they should take responsibility for their actions... not go running to their alliance and having a 130 vs. 1 pile on...

by damgood Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:59 am

kingkongfan1 wrote: "Ishurue is also against personnal not farming policies, because no farming destroys the game."

Hey Guys, gotta throw my two cents worth in right here... I have played this game for 6 months now, with a very few exceptions, I farm ONLY inactives with a zero defense. the above statement that I have put in quotations is such a load of BS... yes, farming is good for the game, but in my time playing here I have found out that there is NO need to farm active players with a defense.(unless they have several days kuwal out to make it worth it). there are enough inactive accounts that farming them is enough. Players that feel the need to farm actives, are generally lacking in their economy, therefore build it up... simple... sorry if I spammed, just wanted to make a point...

And how are you supposed to build better account than others ? Or how are new players supposed to catch up ? ( AE helps them indeed, but not enough ).

by castravete Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:00 pm

WR and Mujengan members never got that pissed for being farmed...meanwhile TIE members(well, some of them) hardly log in to bank, but they get pissed when they get farmed...Ian is a farming frenzy since New Year's Day...but you can't tell him to stop, and hi is right: he Ian, after all...and the others are TIE...even if you come to an agreement and respect his 2 bit farming policy you get massed...so as i said it before: if you just click that magic button at least twice a day it' solved...no more farming...and if you haven't got the time: get use to it...it's your fault you got massed...happens to many times, here's another secret: quit the game and you'll save lots of neurons...so bank, or quit, or get used with getting farmed;)

by ian Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:15 pm

Well, i hate to be depressing and all to the peace proposals, but so far its 9 in favour of continued war, 4 in favour of peace within The Imperium.... That vote could of course swing back around to peace, but honestly... its unlikely.

I did try to warn you guys that hitting TIE and bringing down our "strong players" would only result in The Imperium digging in for a VERY long war and making TOC fight for every inch of ground it makes in closing on TIE. That wasn't my being stubborn which prompted me to say that... it was my having a reasonable idea of just how determined and resiliant TIE's members can be.

Incase anyone accusses me of saying ANYTHING to swing the vote, i ve posted precisely twice on the topic. The first post is already somewhere around here on the forum:

ian wrote:Well, here's the poll given to TIE:

Hey guys.

Please vote below. Feel free to post your thoughts as well. If you vote to continue the war this means its estimated end time will be end of july/ early August. If you vote for peace it ll probably be in the next week.

If war continues we can keep killing the enemy resources, but likewise will sustain casualties ourselves.
If peace is elected there's only so long we ll have to kill more enemy resources before we have to stop.

Keep in mind we offerred peace to TOC 2 weeks ago and made numerous attempts at peace since then. They refused and elected to keep hitting you. They have finally brought down SA47 and managed to kill Stars defence... and now finally it appears that they *may* be interested in peace since then.

Its up to you whether or not you want to continue war based on your personal experiences of how you feel its going so far, and based on your own losses/ how much your willing to loose etc...

Thanks

Choices:

- Continue the war for several more weeks/months?
- Seek a mutual ceasefire as soon as possible?

The second post:

ian wrote:LOL. 6 in favour of war too 3 in favour of peace - while being outnumbered 3 to 1 by the enemy, outgunned (in terms of overall power), out-resourced (in terms of economy) and yet not out-classed or in the least bit deterred by the enemy's suppossed advantage

That pretty much sums up each of you in The Imperium - even those in favour of peace willing to fight the enemy still to a standstill. Dogged and determined - ruthless and strong.

I really am glad i got to know all of you, your possibly the best group of players i ve ever met, not to mention many of you i now call true friends

Keep voting guys...

We should continue discussing peace and if a final proposal is made (minus a date to end the war) it can at least be put to TOC & TIE's respective members to see if they approve or not....

In the meantime, the war continues without an end in sight.

by ian Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:23 pm

castravete wrote:WR and Mujengan members never got that pissed for being farmed...meanwhile TIE members(well, some of them) hardly log in to bank, but they get pissed when they get farmed...Ian is a farming frenzy since New Year's Day...but you can't tell him to stop, and hi is right: he Ian, after all...and the others are TIE...even if you come to an agreement and respect his 2 bit farming policy you get massed...so as i said it before: if you just click that magic button at least twice a day it' solved...no more farming...and if you haven't got the time: get use to it...it's your fault you got massed...happens to many times, here's another secret: quit the game and you'll save lots of neurons...so bank, or quit, or get used with getting farmed;)

Actually Castravate anyone who has bothered to ask me to stop farming them has been left alone. The exception was Buhcorethegreat who's Pm's i simply didn't notice... but after our 1 vs 1 I ve left him completely alone.

Anyway, i changed my personal policy:

My personal farming policy:

I kindly ask not to be farmed by anyone unless i have 10+ hours income out (roughly 6billion Kuwal out). If you ignore this request I ll contact you to try and make a arrangement not to farm me. If you ignore that request you ll leave me little choice but to mass you.

Regarding my faming of other's - IF you ask me to not farm you, i WILL agree to not farm you for amounts below 10 hours income out. Don't be afraid to contact me - I always welcome meeting new players and establishing friendly relations etc...

The terms of any limited farming agreement (whether farming of me or my farming of you) are open to negotiation. You merely need to establish communication with me or i need to establish communicationn with you

If anyone should ever have any questions about AW or need any advice - whether it be how to grow effectively in peace time or how to fight effectively in war-time... feel free to contact me and i ll do my best to help you out

Have a good game!

No Farming Agreements I currently have (i won't farm them, they won't farm me):

buhcoreTheGreat
Vaga
Best - won't farm unless he has more than 20hours income out.

Now... noone's asking for a "No farming policy" like Kenzu is saying - merely that people restrict their attacks to amounts out where the person has gone a extended period of time without banking (i.e. 10hours in my case).

Given only last night Kenzu shot down my proposal of making a simple farming policy where hits are legitimiate regardless of profit when players have 10+hours income out (under 10hours income out = players have to respect the alliances farming policy) - saying that many players can't log in for 12+hours plus so such a policy would be unfair.... then i don't think ANYONE in T.O.C can complain if i ask not to be farmed for less than 10hours income out.... 2hours less than Kenzu's view of what kuwal people can have out...

by aworon Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:33 pm

ian wrote:I did try to warn you guys that hitting TIE and bringing down our "strong players" would only result in The Imperium digging in for a VERY long war and making TOC fight for every inch of ground it makes in closing on TIE.

Ian cut the double standards, we're getting bored of it.

You started by going for TOC "strong players". Assuming we wont do the same is nothing but laughable.
Since I know very well you're not that stupid, I can only assume your other guys, when massing, were under the impression they can get away with it.

TIE has still plenty to lose, just like TOC. I'd prefer not to mass those guys who are juicy targets just for the sake of busting some egos that feel they need to prove anything to anyone. Big defs got massed, points were made, both sides showed they can throw around big guns. In a few weeks/month both will get into the calmer, less destructive part of the war

Edit: Thanks for reminding me ian of your MOTD. I will as of now add the first and only condition emperors will set forth as required to be included in the peace treaty. Any MOTD that presents a message of "Dont farm me otherwise I will mass you" independent of the wording or any further addendums will be forbidden under threat of unconditional massing after a warning to remove said sentence ASAP. The MOTD you posted now complies with this request so I dont think it should create too much of an issue during any potential negotiations.

by castravete Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:41 pm

actually, ian...let me remember you about ayayai and alina_plugaru...does it ring any bell?

by castravete Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:55 pm

lol...let me get this straight:you had this MOTD all the time, but I was reading it backwards?...it was something starting with:"Anyone who farmes me gets massed...bla bla bla"...and you kindly sabbed ayayai after she got pissed because she asked you twice not to farm her...and you kindly continued to farm her at sums like 1-2 bil...How kind of you...you're so lame and so full of.......kindness, my friend...don't dare to contradict this one...I was standing next to her when she sent you those messages(to be honest:she asked me to send you the first one and i did-but it didn't mattered for you...and after she sent you 2)...and you didn't gave a damn...but you did it so kindly...P.S.: that no way to treat a little lady, junior;)

by ian Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:59 pm

castravete wrote:lol...let me get this straight:you had this MOTD all the time, but I was reading it backwards?...it was something starting with:"Anyone who farmes me gets massed...bla bla bla"...and you kindly sabbed ayayai after she got pissed because she asked you twice not to farm her...and you kindly continued to farm her at sums like 1-2 bil...How kind of you...you're so lame and so full of.......kindness, my friend...don't dare to contradict this one...I was standing next to her when she sent you those messages(to be honest:she asked me to send you the first one and i did-but it didn't mattered for you...and after she sent you 2)...and you didn't gave a damn...but you did it so kindly...P.S.: that no way to treat a little lady, junior;)

Ayayai had 10+hours income out - more like 15-20hours income each time i hit her. She hit me for about 3hours income out and did so again after being warned. Her hits were OUTSIDE of The Imperium farming policy - let alone my personal policy. Thats why she got sabbed - for violating BOTH my policy and TIE's policy.

As for alina_plugaru. The first time he contacted me was during this war... and it pretty much said something along the lines of "if you farm e again i m going to mass you f##k" Suffice it to say threatening me, swearing at me over a hit for something like 15+hours income wasn't going to get him any favours.

That reminds me - after this war is over i need to take him up on his threat and "educate" him on using foul language and threats in PM's. Thanks for reminding me about that - i d forgotten Very Happy

by ian Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm

aworon wrote:
ian wrote:I did try to warn you guys that hitting TIE and bringing down our "strong players" would only result in The Imperium digging in for a VERY long war and making TOC fight for every inch of ground it makes in closing on TIE.
Ian cut the double standards, we're getting bored of it.

You started by going for TOC "strong players". Assuming we wont do the same is nothing but laughable.
Since I know very well you're not that stupid, I can only assume your other guys, when massing, were under the impression they can get away with it.

TIE has still plenty to lose, just like TOC. I'd prefer not to mass those guys who are juicy targets just for the sake of busting some egos that feel they need to prove anything to anyone. Big defs got massed, points were made, both sides showed they can throw around big guns. In a few weeks/month both will get into the calmer, less destructive part of the war

Edit: Thanks for reminding me ian of your MOTD. I will as of now add the first and only condition emperors will set forth as required to be included in the peace treaty. Any MOTD that presents a message of "Dont farm me otherwise I will mass you" independent of the wording or any further addendums will be forbidden under threat of unconditional massing after a warning to remove said sentence ASAP. The MOTD you posted now complies with this request so I dont think it should create too much of an issue during any potential negotiations.

For the first part of your message.... No comment (No Comment's gonna be my new fun phrase when it comes to points in which there's a huge potential for a forum argument lol) Smile

For my MOTD, glad it shouldn't be a problem from now on. At least we are making progress.

by Vesper Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:30 pm

So what was Ishurue's farming policy that is said to have triggered this war? I heard alot of chat about it but don't feel like searching for it.

by superkingtsob Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:55 pm

Vesper wrote:So what was Ishurue's farming policy that is said to have triggered this war? I heard alot of chat about it but don't feel like searching for it.

Anything over 8 days income in defense would be consider excessive and didn't fall under the policy

by seaborgium Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:57 pm

Subject: PFP

Message text:

Hi

This is my new Personal Farming policy . i am sending this to u cuz your TIE diplomat .

My Personal Farm Policy for players with Defenses higher then 0

Excessive Defense Clause & army size for tiers

Army size tiers

10mil + 1bil profit

8mil-10mil 800milprofit

6mil -8mil 600mil

4mil - 6mil 450mil profit

2mil- 4mil 300mil profit

under 2million army size 150mil profit

Excessive defense clause . if you have more then 8 days of daily economic generation into defense . then the profit margin will be reduced by 30%

I don't care what farming personal farming policy or alliance policy u have . I will not stop Farming you unless you contact me or someone on your behalf does . then i may offer you a cease farm period . As per breeches in my policy done to others, from now on when i breech I only compensate your loses in Weapons and defense troops .

by ian Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:33 pm

On the other now locked topic Kenzu wrote:

Kenzu wrote:What do u guys say about a ceasefire based on Mutual agreement?
(such as if TIE agrees to a ceasefire then TOC also agrees and vice versa)

If TIE agrees to a ceasefire then TOC also agrees to a ceasefire which will last 3 days and is meant to be enough time for a peace treaty to be signed. During these 3 days the peace treaty should be negotiated and signed.

Ceasefire starts 5th july 2010, 00:01 gametime until 8th july 00:01 gametime.

Until ceasefire starts, regular war continues.

During ceasefire all hostile missions will be forbidden: Assault, sabotage, assassination, destruction, invasion, hunt assassin missions, all forbidden.

Farming and Raiding is allowed.
During ceasefire special farming rules apply, since TOC and TIE are not at peace. Minimum profit in farming is 100 million kuwal and UU price for the duration of the ceasefire is set at 148.000 kuwal per UU, which is the current buy price for UU on the SS market.

I regret to inform you The Imperium rejects this proposed ceasefire. We will continue to do so untill you clarify your stance on Castravate - namely on whether you ll continue to adopt the stance of "if Castravate's massed after the war then the war will continue". As long as this stance remains The Imperium Empire will continue fighting for as long as we have to.

Regards

Ian

by castravete Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:05 pm

why,Ian?...because I played your game...or what...Make a feedback in your little head back there and see who started all this;)

by seaborgium Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:27 pm

Yes ian played the hidden game. However you played the backstabing game. You broke the only thing there is your word. You asked peace you got it twice. Then came back and started fighting. So there is no peace for you once this war is over.

by aworon Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:17 pm

ian wrote:We will continue to do so untill you clarify your stance on Castravate - namely on whether you ll continue to adopt the stance of "if Castravate's massed after the war then the war will continue".

I would like to see your clarify your stance on the NAP, TOC offered tie before the war started. Considering it's now a known certainty that right from the start you had no intention of using it for what it was meant to be, negotiations.

Was it:
a) a tactical ploy
or b) an underhanded tactic

I will copy my answer using your reply.

by Special Agent 47 Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:48 pm

Have talk with a few people and a suggestion was born. I now propose this suggestion publicly so we can hash it out or decide its not time to end this.

The issue is Castrovete and his actions.

The solution proposed:

TIE as an alliance won't target him... but we won't stop those he massed after being given peace deciding on personal war's against him, after the official war ends. Any personal war will be fought in a 1 vs 1 manner with no alliance help on either side.

What say those of TOC

state your counter proposal, or state you do not wish to end the war at this time.

by Jiro Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:47 pm

I'll have a counter proposal later today.

by castravete Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:22 pm

You're not such a big sport yourself, my friend...aren't you, sa47?...After all you had to stand on my level and offend me a little, while I haven't offended you at all...I find it fair after I did offended your buddy ian...but not, you...so you should look better at the words I used for you, and then try to chose your own...

As I can see you sure found a decent peace proposal: me getting a 1v1 with all the 5-6 guys I hit from your alliance...Ok...fair enough: you do it in less than 1 week since the war is over and all in the same time...ok?...I'm not in the move of getting massed once a week and getting ganged whenever your in need for some...Ok?

Let's not forget that you also haven't been so fair with me...remember me asking for peace before war started?...well, if you didn't had the kindness of offering it than I find it pretty normal to give it to me during the war...well, as it didn't count for you before the war started...guess what!?...It hadn't counted for me as well during the war...so shouldn't we call it even?...In my opinion yes...Otherwise I want stand to your sweet ganging and I'll be forced to do what your buddies from other games did...came massed and left...veni, vidi, vinci, my friend...but not you;)
...so try to be fair...if I'm not asking for to much;)...I hope I won't get banned for using the word "gang"...but you can interpret it however you want...ok?...ain't that trivial and I hope you get the point;)

by Jiro Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:55 pm

@SA47: I said I would follow up on your proposal.
I think your proposal is acceptable, but it should include all those who were given peace and then rejoined the war.
The people on the list so far are:
- Castravete for damaging Ian, SA47, stars
- Vesper for damaging Aworon
- Stars for damaging Kenzu and other people in WR while in a grace period.
Only people who were personally affected (i.e. massed, sabbed) can call a 1 on 1.
The period of forced one on ones ends three months after signing the peace treaty. Only two one on ones can be forced upon a player in that time.
All scores are deemed settled after the three months time.

by seaborgium Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:22 pm

Vesper was already hiit.
Stars didn't ask to leave war. He asked for 2 days

by ian Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:49 am

Well.... I warned T.O.C. The below is the result of T.O.C throwing its best at The Imperium and the results its had on The Imperium's resolve & determination - and on what the majority want regarding this war.

I ll let the server decide for itself whether T.O.C were a tad foolish for thinking they could prolong this war past when TIE asked for a mutual ceasefire (when it became apparent our reason for starting the war when we did i.e. believing an attack to be imminent, was a mistake and we hoped to limit the damage to both sides before it REALLY began) & then end it quickly.

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My post:

Hey guys

Just recieved this from Aworon:

"please send me a full treaty you want ishurue and kenzu to consider containing what you want to see in it including the general details"

What are everyone's thoughts/idea's on this?

Do we keep fighting untill a T.O.C surrender - or do we go for peace... and if so, what?

Keep in mind we are close to finishing off their defences above 3billion, and slowly but surely are working our way through their ranks in terms of assassin/spy killing - as well as finishing off more defences.

Post your thoughts taking into account how you personally feel this war is going, and your own personal experiences of this war (i.e. your losses vs. what you ve killed, whether your willing to keep fighting etc... etc...)

Thanks Smile

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XXX: i think the war is gonna great look at the way the other side is going on vaction or leaving or going inactive.

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XXX: I would like for them to surrender

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XXX: I'll go with the majority here. I'd like to see them surrender but frankly I don't see them do it. Their leaders are just too stubborn and anyone talking to them and who knows them knows that I am right. They still think they're winning. They will still think it, no matter if we destroy every last defense of theirs...

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XXX: I too believe the war is going very well for us. I know I have killed more then I have lost and that is after I was massed once.

I have been playing hit and run (a handful of assaults) with a number of the TOC that have defenses close to my strike.

I say see if we can get them too surender. If surrender is highly unlikely I would at least like to finish off the rest of those with high defenses and spy/assassins before we consider a treaty.

XXX

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XXX: i say continue

leaving then half done will just allow them to rebuild quickly and chances are they will declare war again in revenge and things might not turn out as well as they are now

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XXX: I see no good reason to end this war... until I see that I'm still all in.

My vote is for war.

Thou I won't stand in the way of peace now - I got my vengence
Still think WR are a bunch of fraggles thou
Can we try kick kenzu out again lol

Thou all out war *maybe* harming the game abit to...

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XXX1: I would say our terms are the unconditional surrender of all their alliances/empires and a public post stating that they will under no circumstances reform said alliances/empires in secret or otherwise.

They must also agree not to conduct military actions against TIE outside of our policies, whatever they are (policies which we can change when we wish).

I don't think they will go for that but that's the way a war should end

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XXX: I just built a strike above 1.4bil! I'm not gonna let that go to waste!

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XXX1: oh and if they don't agree, we continue the war until they do. hell, this game needs this kind of war to make it exciting again.

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XXX: considering i just lost my defences i don't have anything more to loose..

as long as they protect Castravete there can't be any peace..

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XXX: looks over what is said and watches the game tank to nothing due to a server war pushing players from the game.

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XXX: Would you guys be willing to accept a ToC surrender under the terms that kenzu & LI steps down as leader for 2 months time and no farming is permitted on TIE by any former or current member of ToC for a period of 2 weeks to allow rebuilding?

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XXX: keep war going

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XXX: Here are my thoughts. I do not mind the war, but if there is a end to the war then these are my conditions.

1. A public surrender by the defeated alliances.
2. a no Farming agreement for 1 month towards us.
3. No war in the next 6 months against TIE
4. Public statement saying that this was a War to destroy TIE and eliminate them from rank 1

Otherwise no end

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I have NOT edited a single post or missed ANY posts out (either for or against peace).

THAT is the result of the last 3 - 4 weeks of military campaigning by T.O.C against The Imperium - you ve done exactly what I warned you about doing - namely wiping out most of TIE's pre-war investments meaning we have little to no reason to now end the war until most of T.O.C's pre-war investments are annihilated too (you still have HUGE amounts to loose).

You put my saying that down to pride and arrogance - rather than actually knowing The Imperium's members like I do & (accurately) predicting the exact result trying to cause harm & damage to them would do - namely it would only result in their resolve NOT being broken and ensuring T.O.C really would find itself facing war for a VERY long time or being forced to surrender.

The previous poll which asked The Imperium about peace ended up with 14 in favour of continued war and 9 in favour of peace. This was BEFORE T.O.C did what it did to Stars and swore to protect Castravate..... so about 3 - 4 votes for peace which I knew of swung to war AFTER they had voted in favour of peace.

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Simply put: I ve given it to The Imperium to decide on whether to have peace at this point. I ll update as more posts happen... but I m not hopeful... so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

by Lord Ishurue Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:58 am

ian wrote:
Simply put: I ve given it to The Imperium to decide on whether to have peace at this point. I ll update as more posts happen... but I m not hopeful

Well if your not hopeful . Then we mine as well request to lock this topic for the time being . Makes things a lot easier . plus the (TOC) vs (TIE) thread will become more interesting with this thread locked .

ian wrote:
so unless T.O.C wants to surrender this war IS going to continue for a while yet.

Then this war will continue

by Kingofshinobis1 Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:43 am

Seems like TOC has made its decision Very Happy

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