Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Space2050 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:16 pm

Admin wrote:
Space2050 wrote:Admin, if the attack is defended, and the attacker gets a percentage of the resources out, why not consider the idea that the defender would try to recover a percentage of the resources "not stolen"?
did i understand correctly, you want the game to bank whatever amount is left of what should have been stolen?
dont wanna

stealing parts of the kuwal amount is the equivalent of the attackers having found some holes in your defenses, exploited them and having been able to look a few warehouses instead of all.
More strike = more sections of the defenses probed = more holes found = more warehouses looted


Using your example: "example, you do 5 attacks, your strike is 40 mil, enemy has 100 mil def and 100 mil kuwal out.
You have a 40% chance of stealing 40% of 97.5% of his kuwal, so 39 mil kuwal stolen with 5 attacks at best.
Average amount stolen 15.6 mil kuwal."

If you have that 40% chance of stealing 40% of 97.5% of that enemy's Kuwal, and that enemy has 100mil Kuwal out, you would have a chance to get up to 39mil Kuwal from the warehouses you are exploiting. Most likely the defenders would know you are exploiting those areas of warehouses, so would rush to the areas to attempt to salvage the situation. So after the attacker comes in an gets stopped by the defenders from exploiting the warehouses further, would the defender leave the resources left unstolen in the warehouses waiting to get stolen?

What I am proposing, is that if the attacker gets 19.5mil Kuwal from the enemy they exploited, the defender would recover the resources from the warehouses the enemy was prevented from exploiting, and either transfer them to better defended warehouses, or to the resource bank they were not yet placed in. So, if 19.5mil Kuwal is remaining, a percentage of the resources would get banked, while the remainder gets transferred to other warehouses.

Think about it this way:
player A is getting massed for Kuwal or just to get massed and has a large defense,

player B is getting extra Kuwal because of the new system while that defense is being massed,

so once player A logs in he would have that tiny percentage of the resources player B failed to steal that his soldiers managed to
salvage to help himself repair and recover.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:29 pm

Space2050 wrote:If you have that 40% chance of stealing 40% of 97.5% of that enemy's Kuwal, and that enemy has 100mil Kuwal out, you would have a chance to get up to 39mil Kuwal from the warehouses you are exploiting. Most likely the defenders would know you are exploiting those areas of warehouses, so would rush to the areas to attempt to salvage the situation. So after the attacker comes in an gets stopped by the defenders from exploiting the warehouses further, would the defender leave the resources left unstolen in the warehouses waiting to get stolen?
The attacker doesn't get stopped because the defenders are busy fighting. And since they are fighting, the attackers are unable to loot everything, only a part of it

Space2050 wrote:What I am proposing, is that if the attacker gets 19.5mil Kuwal from the enemy they exploited, the defender would recover the resources from the warehouses the enemy was prevented from exploiting, and either transfer them to better defended warehouses, or to the resource bank they were not yet placed in. So, if 19.5mil Kuwal is remaining, a percentage of the resources would get banked, while the remainder gets transferred to other warehouses.
as much as it makes sense, it would also allow someone to hit a friend with a low strike, stealing a tiny bit and getting part of the rest banked, plus i'd have to make in another check to see if something did get stolen at all, etc.

too complicated
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Kenzu on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:00 pm

your update doesnt work. I attacked, had 20 mill strike, enemy had 30 mill defense
I dealt 9 million damage and got 0 kuwal

I said it once and I can repeat again.
I dont want to attack million times one target.'
I attack once and it should give me some percentage of the kuwal.

If I got 50% of the enemy defense, give me at least 25% of the kuwal.
If I got 10% of enemy defense, give me 20% of the kuwal.


rflash awaited the invaders with the following:
4,186 Super Soldiers, 91 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries

4186 Super Soldiers were armed with IFV
91 Regular Soldiers were armed with IFV
Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 17,172,000 damage on the enemy!
This results in 2 casualties amongst the defending troops!

The defending forces return fire and inflict 37,806,277 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 40 casualties in their enemies ranks!

Your generals report on your weapon damage:
IFV
Weapon strength went from 8,000 to 7,500



Keinutnai's attack has been repelled!
Despite this achievement, 0 Kuwal has been taken from the realm of rflash
The invading soldiers flee in panic whilst rflash's forces are cheering and celebrating their victory.


[07 Oct] 05:36 rflash Attack Failed 3 32 32,161,801 19,501,540 details
[07 Oct] 05:36 rflash Attack Failed 2 38 35,255,617 16,408,436 details
[07 Oct] 05:35 rflash Attack Failed 3 33 37,701,630 22,717,411 details
[07 Oct] 05:35 rflash Attack Failed 3 34 35,067,237 20,958,616 details
[07 Oct] 05:35 rflash Attack Failed 3 31 35,355,642 25,440,000 details
[07 Oct] 05:34 rflash Attack Failed 2 40 37,806,277 17,172,000 details
[07 Oct] 05:33 rflash Attack Failed 0 63 35,211,729 6,090,208 details
[07 Oct] 05:30 rflash Attack Failed 1 54 34,266,320 9,667,200 details

I attacked 8 times on the test server and didnt get a single kuwal.

Something wrong with it.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by . on Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:59 pm

i don't think you should attack once and get your cut that would just be to easy

[06 Oct] 06:47 Zuge Attack Failed 50 1612 2,077,003,736 530,068,500 details
[06 Oct] 06:47 Zuge Attack Failed 93 1210 2,038,219,282 950,290,000 details

of course i lost both time but look when i open it

Souldog's attack has been repelled!
Despite this achievement, 4,316,256,261 Kuwal has been taken from the realm of Zuge
Souldog's attack has been repelled!
Despite this achievement, 107,906,406 Kuwal has been taken from the realm of Zuge

i actually gained kuwal both times ...

.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:21 pm

souldog wrote:i don't think you should attack once and get your cut that would just be to easy
tbh i'm split on whether to do it one way or the other.

whether there should be a 50% chance of getting 50% of the cut, or a 100% chance of getting 25% of the cut, if your strike is half the defense.
Or make something in the middle of these two options, tilted in favor of having a higher chance of stealing something but conversely the cut being decreased, so in this case maybe something like 75% chance of getting 33% of the cut.

Additionally i'm considering dropping loot stolen in case your def is significantly below enemy def (significantly below meaning all cases where your natural strike is less than enemy natural def), by some factor. Because right now there is no penalty as such if your strike is always lower than enemy defenses.

Dont forget that farming with a strike that's only a third of the target def will cause you significantly more unit losses %-wise and more weapons damage, not to mention that kuwal stolen per AT/ST used will be lower, than if your strike is above enemy defense.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Lance on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:05 pm

i don't like this idea. supers losing their bonus.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:18 pm

Majhoka wrote:i don't like this idea. supers losing their bonus.
nothing changes that will affect how many supers die during battle or how much power they give you with 1 weapon
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:39 pm

ok, new system posted in first post. As you can see will strongly support attacking for "less" to gain "more" with each hit.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:28 am

Admin wrote:Proposed system:
- Before attack you select how many attacks (1-10 attacks)
- Each attack costs 1 AT/1 ST (total 10 AT/ST per best hit, also dont forget that ST produced and limits will get multiplied by 5)
- 1 attack = 10% of max losses; 10 attacks = 100% of max losses
- VV Kuwal stolen VV
Spoiler:
1=15%
2=28.97%
3=41.88%
4=53.7%
5=64.4%
6=73.95%
7=82.32%
8=89.48%
9=95.4%
10=100%
- Lower strike than def equals proportional chance of stealing portion of max possible steal
(40 Strike and 100 Def and 10 attacks = 40% chance to steal 40%^0.5= 63% of kuwal [Expected gain = 25% of maximum kuwal])


so your saying someone with a 40 mill strike hitting my 100 mill defense with 10 attacks is going to get 1/4 of my kewal in the open even tho he can't beat my defense?

I see alot of people getting mad about being farmed, and alot of people getting massed for farming. Can't say its good or bad but it should be intresting. rendeer
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Alex on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:33 am

I'm not a fan of people with lower strike than my defence being able to steal my kuwal. I think they should have to have a bigger strike or there is no chance of getting anything, otherwise what is the point of having a large defence if it doesn't protect your kuwal?

Also can I suggest 1 thing. Can you please make it so that the default number entered into the input box for the amount of turns to use is 10, so that it stays the same as it is now in terms of time taken to attack someone.

Example:
NOW:
Find person with kuwal out,
click their name,
click strike mission,
click attack.

WITH DEFAULT NUMBER AS 1:
Find person with kuwal out,
click their name,
click strike mission,
highlight and type 10 into input box (or symply type a 0 after the 1),
click attack.

As you can see it adds another step, this step also involving a different perhipheral device (Keyboard, as opposed to just mouse)

Its not a big deal, but I would find it flows better if you use my suggestion. For all I know you were already planning to do it this way, I don't use the test server so I havn't had any experience with the new system, I don't even know if it is on the test server at all.<- I read the other test server topic.

-Alex
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:36 am

Nomad wrote:
so your saying someone with a 40 mill strike hitting my 100 mill defense with 10 attacks is going to get 1/4 of my kewal in the open even tho he can't beat my defense?

I see alot of people getting mad about being farmed, and alot of people getting massed for farming. Can't say its good or bad but it should be intresting. rendeer
No, i'm saying someone with a 40 strike, hitting your 100 defense with 10 attacks has a 40% chance of stealing 64% of your kuwal, which equals to stealing 25% of your kuwal on hand on average with each hit when doing 100 attacks.

Dont forget that although their strike will only be 40 mil, due to damage modifiers, they will lose as many units as if they had a 100 mil strike and attack your 100 mil def.
Smaller strike never results in decreased losses for attacker, only for decreased expected gain, which is why people will still have a big incentive to increase their strikes instead of hoping for lucky hits.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:48 am

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:
so your saying someone with a 40 mill strike hitting my 100 mill defense with 10 attacks is going to get 1/4 of my kewal in the open even tho he can't beat my defense?

No, i'm saying someone with a 40 strike, hitting your 100 defense with 10 attacks has a 40% chance of stealing 64% of your kuwal, which equals to stealing 25% of your kuwal on hand on average with each hit when doing 100 attacks.

we said the same thing, you just explained the math behind it. End result is a stike 40% of my defense will take 1/4 of my kewal on a defended attack.

The question now is, can you steal enough to pay for repairs, and buy back your lost UU, train and arm them, and still make a profit.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Kenzu on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:47 am

Nomad wrote:
Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:
so your saying someone with a 40 mill strike hitting my 100 mill defense with 10 attacks is going to get 1/4 of my kewal in the open even tho he can't beat my defense?

No, i'm saying someone with a 40 strike, hitting your 100 defense with 10 attacks has a 40% chance of stealing 64% of your kuwal, which equals to stealing 25% of your kuwal on hand on average with each hit when doing 100 attacks.

we said the same thing, you just explained the math behind it. End result is a stike 40% of my defense will take 1/4 of my kewal on a defended attack.

The question now is, can you steal enough to pay for repairs, and buy back your lost UU, train and arm them, and still make a profit.

Let's keep it nice and simple. If you attack with strike lower than defense

at the end it will tell you something like this:

Your failed at collecting all kuwal, because your strike action was lower than enemy defense action,
but your troops still managed to steal 25% of the enemy kuwal.

(To be successful, you need to train and arm more attack soldiers)


Keep it SIMPLE!

If your strike is 90% of enemy defense, you can steal 0.9^2 = 81% with each hit.
If your strike is 75% of enemy defense, you can steal 0.75^2 = 56.25% with each hit.
If your strike is 50% of enemy defense, you can steal 0.5^2 = 25% with each hit.
If your strike is 25% of enemy defense, you can steal 0.25^2 = 6.25% with each hit.
If your strike is 10% of enemy defense, you can steal 0.1^2 = 1% with each hit.

This means that someone who has 1 billion defense and 4 billion kuwal out is in danger if there is someone who has 500 million strike, because the attacker can steal 25% with the first hit, meaning he could steal 1 billion.

This makes the game more fair, because rank 1 defense will not mean that you are untouchable and dont have to worry about having 5 billion kuwal out.

Bigger players will have to learn to fear smaller players.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:50 am

Nomad wrote:we said the same thing, you just explained the math behind it. End result is a stike 40% of my defense will take 1/4 of my kewal on a defended attack.

The question now is, can you steal enough to pay for repairs, and buy back your lost UU, train and arm them, and still make a profit.
well i pointed out some issues which I felt had not passed over clearly enough Very Happy

and anyways you can steal enough by hoping/seeing the target person has a disproportionate amount of kuwal out in the open.
i.e.
protection ran out, but their def is still larger than your strike

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Lord Ishurue on Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:29 am

The Farming system we have right now works just fine . If a defense is too high then Sab / Assassinate it down to a farmable level .
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Lord Ishurue on Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:48 am

The biggest Farmers in aderan wars in my opinion are . (in random order )
Looking in Hachigan's members logs I mainly saw members who farmed us from these alliances .

Geto-Dachi
The Imperium
World Republic
Hachigan if it still exists . ( we farmed people from those alliances in the list but not each other lol )
United Universe Nation
New federation

Those 6 alliances make up more than half of the active population in the game .

I am pretty sure all those alliances use the 3 tier farming policy . for those who dont know , if your defense is under 200mil then the farmer has to make at least 50ml profit after all expenses . 200mil - 500mil defense u need to make at least 100mil profit . over 500 mil defense you need to make at least 150mil profit .

This new system would require all of those alliances to change their farm policy , which would be kind of a pain in the butt .

If you want it so every1 can get hit , cant you just code something into the current system with out having to change it so drastically ?

example an 800mil strike tries to farm a 1bil defense . he has an 80% chance of getting at max 80% of kuwal out , and the bare minimum he can steal is 60% . or something like that .

To speed up the game reduce Farming ST cost to 1 ST per farm .
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:55 am

Ishurue wrote:This new system would require all of those alliances to change their farm policy , which would be kind of a pain in the butt .
On the contrary, it will make it easy for even beginners to be able to calculate how much the attacker lost in reality and how much they had profit. (they will simply multiply the value of arming 1 unit of the attacker by the number of losses. I'd say that's 3 additions and 1 multiplication, whereas right now it's quite a bit harder.)
ATM it's nearly impossible for anyone other than those who farm on a regular basis to be able to judge how much weapon damage the attacker suffered and whether they made a profit.

Ishurue wrote:example an 800mil strike tries to farm a 1bil defense . he has an 80% chance of getting at max 80% of kuwal out , and the bare minimum he can steal is 60% . or something like that .

To speed up the game reduce Farming ST cost to 1 ST per farm .
I'm getting the strong feeling you haven't read through that first post clearly enough.

Because what you suggested coincides by about 75% to what is released on the test server and under observation

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by FarleShadow on Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:00 pm

You know, if you wanted to impliment a similar easier system, you could just create a new attack option that makes troops grab a % of kuwal and run without engaging the majority of the defensive forces but leave the current system for when you have more att than their def, that way bigger players with huge def can still get hit for some kuwal.

Hit and run, there you go.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:51 pm

the "new" system includes the "old" system.

If your strike is higher than enemy def then nothing changes for you.
Except for the fact that you will now most likely attack more often for "less" kuwal to earn more.

If you use only 1 attack, then you'll steal 15% of the onhand kuwal but suffer only 10% the usual losses.
On the other hand if you use 8 attacks, you'll steal 89.5% of the onhand kuwal but suffer 80% of the usual losses

Practical example
Someone has a 1 bil def, and you know with a full attack they would cause you 200 mil kuwal worth of losses.
Once they have 200 mil kuwal out you can hit them with 1 attack, steal 30 mil kuwal but lose only 20 mil worth of attackers. Leaving the defender with 170 mil kuwal in the open to login and spend as they want.
I call it a win win situation

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by FarleShadow on Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:41 am

Oh no I get it, it just seems that instead of panicing everyone with 'ZOMG NEW SYSTEM' you could have just said 'Well now we have HNR attacks which allow those massively defended players to be chipped at for a % of kuwal with minimal losses'.

Plus, making a HNR button would have probably been less coding and I'm the kind of guy who only thinks of the most efficient method of coding AFTER I've submitted the code.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:51 am

You lost me at HNR

Anyways, trust me, changing to the new system required the addition of about 20-30 lines of code Razz

All of the strike missions share 85% of the same code with each other, just the each particular attack type does something else during the other 15%.
So writing a new attack would require writing maybe 40-70 lines of code extra now.

Hmm rant over, nyways, doing new attack would have been a bad alternative cos that would mean yet another button on the attack page, new players already have enough trouble finding out what to do.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by FarleShadow on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:13 pm

Hit 'n run

And yea.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:05 pm

Ishurue wrote:

example an 800mil strike tries to farm a 1bil defense . he has an 80% chance of getting at max 80% of kuwal out , and the bare minimum he can steal is 60% . or something like that .

To speed up the game reduce Farming ST cost to 1 ST per farm .

So someone with a strike 20% smaller then my defense can take over 1/2 of my kewal? Just gut defense out altogether if your going to make it completely useless. You would be cutting the defensive personal bonuses and magnifing the att personal bonuses by doing that as well.

Why speed the game up? Many of us like the speed just fine. You want a faster game go find a faster game. You can't get much faster then TGW. You can start today and be rank 1 and competative to every account in the game in 3 to 6 months. Its been running 5+yrs. Of course that game is completely pointless, dry, and stale now because of that.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:08 pm

Nomad wrote:So someone with a strike 20% smaller then my defense can take over 1/2 of my kewal? Just gut defense out altogether if your going to make it completely useless. You would be cutting the defensive personal bonuses and magnifing the att personal bonuses by doing that as well.
Nomad, yes they can take that equivalent of kuwal but please factor in your thinking that said attacker will still lose the same amount of units as someone who would have the normal required strike.

Basically lower strike than def means equal losses as with higher strike but with less % return.
Which means you can have on hand MORE kuwal before someone with a lower strike will earn a profit by stealing from you.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:08 pm

if you have no care for UU how does that factor into it?

people sell UU daily, if you can make more killing them then selling them then why wouldn't you?

Its the same way with ST, someone who runs out of ST often values them much differently then someone who has never run out. Someone who has no intentions of growing and sells UU for income values them much differently then someone pushing hard for growth and expansion.

plain and simple, I see where this is going already by a few other posts. If you have little to no income you need no defense other then protect your strike. Spies can be untrained same as assassins. People sell off their UU, keep a tolken defense, and hit juicy targets they would not have been able to hit before and make profits since UU have no value to them.

The defenders must just accept it, or lose massive amounts of resources to mass them, and then will it stop it?

That said, I'm not against it. I'm willing to try it out because I see and understand what your trying to accoplish. I'm just pointing out a few flaws in your thinking because I am a player and I know how I would exploit that.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

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