Weapon system rework

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Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:48 pm

Weapons system:
- No more repairs
- If a unit dies then the weapon they were holding is lost
- For practical reasons, best weapons get destroyed first instead of a proportional part of all weapons

- Weapon upkeep cost
- Will be directly deducted from your turn income
- Higher level weapons will cost more upkeep % wise (random numbers, i.e. Knife would cost you 1% of value per day, Sniper Rifle might cost 1.4% though)

Awaiting suggestions (and feedback after release on test server) concerning unit losses.
Right now, losses are as follows:
Attack/Raid/Hunt Assassins/Invasion
Defender 0.25%
Attacker 2%

Assault/Destruction
Defender 3%
Attacker 7.5%

First group should remain approximately the same, and will most likely maybe only increase defender to 0.5-0.75%.

Second group I will probably make it around 3% for defender and 3-3.5% for attacker.
Since an attacker wouldn't gain anything by being able to repair anymore, there is no more reason to keep it skewed in the defenders favor.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Lord Ishurue on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:04 am

Admin wrote:Weapons system:
- No more repairs
- If a unit dies then the weapon they were holding is lost
- For practical reasons, best weapons get destroyed first instead of a proportional part of all weapons

- Weapon upkeep cost
- Will be directly deducted from your turn income
- Higher level weapons will cost more upkeep % wise (random numbers, i.e. Knife would cost you 1% of value per day, Sniper Rifle might cost 1.4% though)

Awaiting suggestions (and feedback after release on test server) concerning unit losses.
Right now, losses are as follows:
Attack/Raid/Hunt Assassins/Invasion
Defender 0.25%
Attacker 2%

Assault/Destruction
Defender 3%
Attacker 7.5%

First group should remain approximately the same, and will most likely maybe only increase defender to 0.5-0.75%.

Second group I will probably make it around 3% for defender and 3-3.5% for attacker.
Since an attacker wouldn't gain anything by being able to repair anymore, there is no more reason to keep it skewed in the defenders favor.

Why ? the system we have now is fine .
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:06 am

is it?

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Kenzu on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:22 am

I think it would be a good idea for a survey.

This is a very big change to the game, and should be done only if vast majority (at least 75%) approve of it.

If there will be more than 25% against, it might be a bad idea to do it.

PS: I personally support weapons being lost during battles + upkeep cost. Sounds more reasonable than always all weapons getting damaged.


If most people approve or dont care about this update, we should start thinking more in detail. For example where the money for the upkeep comes from.

I propose that you deposit money in the armory, which will be used to service the upkeep. You deposit without fees, but cannot take money out of this fund (The money is de facto used to produce ammunition and weapon parts and represents the value of these, therefore cannot be taken out in the form of kuwal.)
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Lord Ishurue on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:35 am

Admin wrote:is it?

I think so .

Repairs are reasonable .

if you get massed the weapons are gonna get destroyed anyways .

1 mission is sorta like getting punched in the face
, you will most likely not die but may need stiches or first aid .

I see no reason to always have weapons lost every mission .
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nomad on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:20 am

its definitely going to make massings more expensive since a defense will never fall.


as for an upkeep cost, going to make ranks useless and borderline liability. The entire point of a defense is to safe guard your income, not decrease it due to upkeep.

Can you go into negetive income due to this update? what happens to the weapons if there is NO income on the account? or not enough to cover the upkeep?

All that said, I'm ready to try this out. I wanted to see it in action for awhile now.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:29 am

I think this update has merit. not sure about the upkeep cost.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Kenzu on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:18 am

Nomad wrote:its definitely going to make massings more expensive since a defense will never fall.


as for an upkeep cost, going to make ranks useless and borderline liability. The entire point of a defense is to safe guard your income, not decrease it due to upkeep.

Can you go into negetive income due to this update? what happens to the weapons if there is NO income on the account? or not enough to cover the upkeep?

All that said, I'm ready to try this out. I wanted to see it in action for awhile now.

Obviously since defense will never go to 0, some more updates will have to be made. For example:
If your strike action is 100 times higher than enemy defense, the enemy surrenders and both sides have no losses (and the enemy is de facto undefended and you can get all their goodies, or go and kill assassins or strikers)

Obviously it will be made so that UPKEEP COST will be much lower than what you would loose if you would be farmed.
Someone might loose 300 million each night when not having 300 million defense. If you have 300 million defense, you have 33.000 IFV (value 6.000.000.000), without your defense, you would loose an equivalent of 5% value of weapons that would protect you well.
Paying 0.5% upkeep per day seems reasonable to me.

I propose 0.5% upkeep for each weapon per day. (the percentage is same because better weapons cost more per strike/defense point and thus their upkeep is higher already, AND because it makes the code shorter and uses less server capacity)

In Assaults I propose that both sides loose similiar value of weapons (assuming all have same bonuses and techs).
If attacker attacks with 5.000 weapons, and defender has 1.000 weapons, (attacker should destroy a 10% value of his weapons on the defender and attacker suffer 15% himself). This means that attacker would loose 375 weapons and defender 250 weapons. (5 assaults are enough in this case) (attacker would have 3.500 weapons, defender 0)

If attacker had 2.000 weapons, and defender 1.000 weapons, after about 15 assaults attacker would have 500 weapons and defender 0



It doesnt have to be 10 and 15 percent, it can be 5 and 7.5 too. Most important that it will not be that an attacker with 10.000 will loose 1.000 weapons and a defender with 1.000 weapons only 100 weapons in 1 assault, because that would make assaulting not worthwile.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:46 am

Nomad wrote:its definitely going to make massings more expensive since a defense will never fall.
Technically it should. But in reality I think massings will get cheaper.
1) You can zero a defense with sabotage/assassination
2) Once the def is really gone, you can do all the other strike missions with ZERO repair costs (hence the idea of upkeep costs)


Nomad wrote:as for an upkeep cost, going to make ranks useless and borderline liability. The entire point of a defense is to safe guard your income, not decrease it due to upkeep.
Generally you dont build stats to gain rank but to achieve certain purpose, get defense to cover income, get strike to farm others...

Nomad wrote:Can you go into negetive income due to this update? what happens to the weapons if there is NO income on the account? or not enough to cover the upkeep?
I'm certain things can be put in place to make sure that doesn't happen

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nomad on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:02 am

So for clarification, you can kill ALL units then? not like TGW where 19 men never die?

Cheaper massings? I take it you mean because there is no repair cost? Before 15 assaults broke weapons and the massing was free after that, with this there is no repair costs but the defense stands till every man is dead. Should be intresting to see.

as for
2) Once the def is really gone, you can do all the other strike missions with ZERO repair costs (hence the idea of upkeep costs)
You can do that now so no change.

Generally you dont build stats to gain rank but to achieve certain purpose, get defense to cover income, get strike to farm others...
Well when all thats needed is a strike 40% of your defense, it makes defense rather useless for income protection TBH, that said I am willing to try this out and all.

Well as for neg income due to upkeep, keep in mind it is abuseable if you don't make it so there is a cost. I could put 100% of my men in military stats, having only a handfull of untrained for income and farm all the income I need. There needs to be a penalty for not haveing the funds to keep up your weapons.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:52 am

Nomad wrote:as for
2) Once the def is really gone, you can do all the other strike missions with ZERO repair costs (hence the idea of upkeep costs)
You can do that now so no change.
Trust me, you can't
The repair costs are fairly low compared to what you kill, but they are still significant when added up.

Right now you can't kill 100k assassins even past 0 def with paying less than 1-2 Bil kuwal in repairs. Sure it's not much compared to the 10-15 bil the target loses, but still... It is a cost

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nomad on Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:00 pm

Thought about this on the way home from work, what about assaulting the strike? Before it was done After the defense fell. Now the defense will never fall. So how will that effect that attack type, if at all?
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:18 pm

I was thinking about something while in the bathroom, i will spare the details Razz

What about sabing? Will it still work the same? How about maybe taking out the man and the weapon...

What if someone over builds and has 50k weapons and only 40k def and they get massed and all 40k are dead, are you able to destroy the last 10k or do they just sit and look pretty?

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:34 pm

seaborgium wrote:What about sabing? Will it still work the same? How about maybe taking out the man and the weapon...
Forgive the attitude in the upcoming 2 sentences (but it really was necesary Very Happy):
You are welcome to observe the apparent lack of information being presented onto the subject of sabotage. Through a process of deduction and rationalization (bordering, in terms of necessary knowledge and the ability of abstract understanding required to be present in the subject, to quantum mechanics and biochemistry) it is possible to conclude, with significant statistical probability, approaching 1 (or a similarly close value thereof), that the mechanics and overall execution of sabotage missions will remain, well within the scope of legitimately being called, unchanged.

Now onto more serious notes. Not gonna happen that you take out both. You have sabotage for one and assassination for the other.

seaborgium wrote:What if someone over builds and has 50k weapons and only 40k def and they get massed and all 40k are dead, are you able to destroy the last 10k or do they just sit and look pretty?
Considering you need to lose a soldier to be able to lose a weapon, you will only lose the 40k tops with normal strike missions.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Lord Ishurue on Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:28 am

Ok so an assassination will now have a sabotage effect , Nice no need to train any more spies .

if a soldier dies so does there weapon , which would mean Assassins also kill weapons .
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:38 am

Lord Ishurue wrote:Ok so an assassination will now have a sabotage effect , Nice no need to train any more spies .

if a soldier dies so does there weapon , which would mean Assassins also kill weapons .
Is incompatible with, hence is obviously false.
Admin wrote:Now onto more serious notes. Not gonna happen that you take out both. You have sabotage for one and assassination for the other.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nomad on Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:49 pm

OK admin, I am a bit lost. I think I understand, but just for us poor white trash rednecks, could you clarify this a bit more?

Strike attacks = Unit is killed, weapon is destroyed.

Assassinations = Unit is killed, weapon is left with the dead body unharmed.

Sabotage = Unit is left unharmed, weapon is destroyed.

Is this correct?
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:53 pm

Nomad wrote:Strike attacks = Unit is killed, weapon is destroyed.

Assassinations = Unit is killed, weapon is left with the dead body unharmed.

Sabotage = Unit is left unharmed, weapon is destroyed.
100% correct

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:23 pm

Well I said something to lord ish, and he felt due to the way it was written, I mentioned it to him before i went offline. From the looks of it he didn't post his thought process on it.

He was saying due tot the way admin and written it up. Which I can understand but after admin said what he did, i knew it was no different then now.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Lord Ishurue on Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:32 am

The repair system we have now works just fine . there's no point of changing something that is all ready working good .
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Kenzu on Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:08 pm

Ishurue wrote:Ok so an assassination will now have a sabotage effect , Nice no need to train any more spies .

if a soldier dies so does there weapon , which would mean Assassins also kill weapons .

Assassination kills SOLDIERS ONLY
Sabotage destroys WEAPONS ONLY
Attacking kill SOLDIERS AND WEAPONS
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by ¤ Angel Slayer on Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:03 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Ishurue wrote:Ok so an assassination will now have a sabotage effect , Nice no need to train any more spies .

if a soldier dies so does there weapon , which would mean Assassins also kill weapons .

Assassination kills SOLDIERS ONLY........... who kills the spies???
Sabotage destroys WEAPONS ONLY
Attacking kill SOLDIERS AND WEAPONS

Shocked you mean we have to attack them, kill their soldiers and then attack them to kill their non living weapons? oh lordy whats this game coming too. Laughing
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nomad on Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:33 pm

Well it makes sense to me. Assassins Kill people, not set explosives and rigg weapondry. Besides, after you assasinate soilders the weapons are useless as no one is holding them.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by FarleShadow on Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:42 pm

Nomad wrote:Well it makes sense to me. Assassins Kill people, not set explosives and rigg weapondry. Besides, after you assasinate soilders the weapons are useless as no one is holding them.

Technically, the easiest way to kill a soldier would be to rig his weapon to explode in his face, as you wouldn't need to directly confront the possibly highly skilled warrior.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Sandwalker on Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:03 pm

Untechnically, rig the soldier to explode in the weapon's face.

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