Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:47 pm

and hence the update that even if you're beat you still get some of the loot, and if you're close to being beat you get most of the loot, most of the time.

Which again tips the system in the attackers favor.
Because the defender is not 100% sure to keep their kuwal when they have a 14 mil def and you have a 10 mil strike.
But the attacker is 100% sure to steal all kuwal when they have a 14 mil strike and you have a 10 mil def.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Kenzu on Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:48 pm

Nomad wrote:You havent for me.

Random factor of strike power in battle changed from 90-105% to 75-120% (identical average value)
- Random factor of defense power in battle remains unchanged at 90-105%
I still say this is giving the attacker a 15% advantage in overall power.

if both strike and defense are 100 mill, and both hit on the maximum side of the randomness scale then the strike will win 15% advantge over the defense.

main point, identical strike vs identical defense, the random factor is in the favor of the strike by 15% and I dont understand that.


(90+105)/2 = 97.5
(75+120)/2 = 97.5

Strike will be the same on average.

BUT to be 100% sure to succeed you must have 40% more strike than enemy defense
which I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:49 pm

Kenzu wrote:
BUT to be 100% sure to succeed you must have 40% more strike than enemy defense
which I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with

True, but wait, what's that outside the box? Could it be? YES! It's the BIG picture! Do you see it?

You guys are something else:

Nomad: got the end result of the update, didn't understand how it works.
Kenzu: understood how it works, didn't get the end result of the update.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Kenzu on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:36 pm

Sandwalker wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
BUT to be 100% sure to succeed you must have 40% more strike than enemy defense
which I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with

True, but wait, what's that outside the box? Could it be? YES! It's the BIG picture! Do you see it?

You guys are something else:

Nomad: got the end result of the update, didn't understand how it works.
Kenzu: understood how it works, didn't get the end result of the update.

which end result of the update?

We posted same thing with a few minutes time difference.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:49 pm

the end result: Strike gains from this update. Nomad understood that. You don't

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:03 pm

the average, yes I understand

the fact that by increasing the upper limit of the strikes capabilities above that of the defensive capabilities mean that a strike that could not previously hit said defense now can so it is infact a \"boost\" that was not there previously. Thats how I see it. couldnt hit before and win, can hit now and win.

as for the averages, yes I do infact see more clearly that there is a much worse factor of failing miserable the achieving the imposible.

Still cant say i understand why the % are not identical, but I trust admins wisdom enough to give it a go.


as I said, you are all looking at \"averages\" thats you math guys advantages. I\'m looking at the fact that a strike that could not hit me before and win, will be able to hit me a win now. yes its a chance, and yes he may fail 17 times but he can still beat me with a smaller strike.

flip side, hows this going to effect massings? we all know attack has the advantage of retraining, pretraining, and repairing on the fly, will this increasse the speed of massings, or on \"avereage\" will it remain the same?

how will this effect other things such as invasions and such?

*Edit*
[quote=\"Kenzu\"]I will have to have 40% more strike than defender if I want to make sure not to fail in a farm attack, which is complete nonsense!

(Currently you need only 17% more strike than enemy defense to win)
[/quote]
Kenzu makes a valid point that reflects my question, this will effect massings and such as to be sure all your strikes are succesful, you will need 23% more strike power.

I\'m still not against the overall idea BTW, I just can not get my head around certain points.


Last edited by Nomad on Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:06 pm

this is about farming, not assault missions. I don't know if it will apply to assault as well. My guess is it won't.

BUT: If you're super unlucky, all your attacks will be at 75% and all the defenses will be at 105%, in which case you can end up owning yourself. On average, the law of averages applies. Some might do it faster, some slower, overall it would be the same.

EDIT: The title of the thread is "Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]" <- notice the specific mention of the "FARMING" system.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:12 pm

put a small edit in SW


I say lets try it, even tho I dont understand it all, I trust you math guys well enough. Atleast it will start some wars I guess.

I bet you will see some strong stances being taken on the matter ingame tho, I'll tell you now, someone with a stike 25% less then my def farms me and hes a deadman.

You will see farmers getting sat on for long periods of time as well, not like it is now where its smash them and move on. a 1 off lucky random hit will get swift returns. Thats just my predictions anyway.

Beta first? or live server?
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Kenzu on Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:06 pm

If you cant resist and have to make this update, then make 2 options for farming,

one with a strike attack like before (90%-105%)
and one option for the crazy attack (75%-120%)

or make a safe attack: 100%
and one risky attack: 75%-125%
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:16 pm

Kenzu wrote:If you cant resist and have to make this update, then make 2 options for farming,

one with a strike attack like before (90%-105%)
and one option for the crazy attack (75%-120%)

or make a safe attack: 100%
and one risky attack: 75%-125%

lol. Talk about alternatives that will never be used.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by . on Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:34 pm

i actually hate that their are non-killable units

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Starryager on Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:59 pm

Now time to crush the players defense with my superior attack strength!

Thank you very much admin! You made me even more powerful than before.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:05 pm

Zeroager wrote:Now time to crush the players defense with my superior attack strength!

Thank you very much admin! You made me even more powerful than before.

I predict farming with a high chance of fail in your future. Smile

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:54 pm

Nomad wrote:Beta first? or live server?
obviously beta first
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Kismet on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:40 am

Admin wrote:and hence the update that even if you're beat you still get some of the loot, and if you're close to being beat you get most of the loot, most of the time.

Which again tips the system in the attackers favor.
Because the defender is not 100% sure to keep their kuwal when they have a 14 mil def and you have a 10 mil strike.
But the attacker is 100% sure to steal all kuwal when they have a 14 mil strike and you have a 10 mil def.

Ok, I'm against all of these "changes".

That said, the attacker is still online 100% of the time during the attacks. The defender is not and doesn't have the chance to repair or retrain. Just as everyone else has stated. How does this help those who are defending? It doesn't. It hurts them more than anything. They have to repair on the random chance that someone with a much smaller strike than their own defense rolls snake eyes and gets the booty and end up not having the kuwal to repair or retrain.

Have a separate button option: To attack a much higher defense, you'll need to use more attack turns. It sorta goes with kenzu's suggestion, but will cost you more to attack if you want the more "risky" option. (I'm not saying take his numbers, just the higher strike randomness) The regular strike would be as it currently is. The "risky" one would be as advertised, however, would do 10% less damage to the defender because they are NOT online.

Regular button uses 10 AT + 3 ST..... Chance of higher strike random roll uses 20AT + 10 ST (since you get the chance of gaining all the defenders kuwal).

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:24 am

Kismet wrote:That said, the attacker is still online 100% of the time during the attacks. The defender is not and doesn't have the chance to repair or retrain.
Last time I checked you had to be online to farm, unless you're using a bot which is illegal. So not really a change, is it?
Plus retraining or repairing for the defender isn't relevant to this topic, it only matter if you are massing (note the topic title, no "massing" in it, so what matters is the first and only farm hit while you're asleep or whatever.

Kismet wrote:How does this help those who are defending? It doesn't.
As a matter of fact it does help those who are defending. Right now if someone can beat your defense, you're certain to lose everything you have on hand. So you will definitely not have enough after it to repair and retrain. After the update the frequency of attacks will go up, however the average stealing will go down from the current 95% to around 30-70%

The change will be in favor of those who cannot build a high enough defense to not get attacked (basically all small players), instead of losing everything, they will only lose a half or so but get attacked more often, and against those who can build a high enough def to be protected from even the biggest strike (basically all large players), instead of never getting attacked, they will get attacked but not lose as much %-wise as small accounts.

Kismet wrote:They have to repair on the random chance that someone with a much smaller strike than their own defense rolls snake eyes and gets the booty and end up not having the kuwal to repair or retrain.
Could you please be so kind and quote the part where I said that the smaller strike has some off chance to steal some kuwal but only a fraction of a larger strike can steal, so that I'm sure you read that part and understood that what you just said about a smaller strike stealing kuwal and you not having enough to repair afterwards makes no sense whatsoever?
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by darkshield on Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:21 am

seems like quite a controversial update to me Very Happy
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:48 am

darkshield wrote:seems like quite a controversial update to me Very Happy
“People who make no mistakes lack boldness and the spirit of adventure. They are the brakes on the wheels of progress.”
the genes of people who take too many risks will rarely spread around this world
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by darkshield on Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:27 am

lol!
true true, but if they were not there life would be very dull don't u think. and i believe that the update should at least get a test run to see if it is a good idea.

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Nomad on Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:45 am

darkshield wrote:lol!
true true, but if they were not there life would be very dull don't u think. and i believe that the update should at least get a test run to see if it is a good idea.

agree, lets test it out.
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Space2050 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:42 pm

Admin, if the attack is defended, and the attacker gets a percentage of the resources out, why not consider the idea that the defender would try to recover a percentage of the resources "not stolen"? So if the attacker has the chance to get 39mil Kuwal, but only steal 15.6mil Kuwal, the defender would automatically bank 23.4mil Kuwal (or some percentage of that). Another example would be if the attacker with the chance to get 39mil Kuwal ended up getting 36mil Kuwal, the defender would automatically bank 3mil Kuwal because they were not able to salvage the situation as well as in the previous situation.

In my opinion, that would add even more realism to the situation. Where the defender has the chance to recover a portion of the resources the attacker was trying to steal. (Assuming the defended attack situation you were mentioning)

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by . on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:45 pm

i can't proof it and i'm not really sure but i think i had less then 1 bill out !! i acctacked to test it out !! when i checked i never one but in the end i had like 6 bil in my hand ...

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:46 pm

Space2050 wrote:Admin, if the attack is defended, and the attacker gets a percentage of the resources out, why not consider the idea that the defender would try to recover a percentage of the resources "not stolen"?
did i understand correctly, you want the game to bank whatever amount is left of what should have been stolen?
dont wanna

stealing parts of the kuwal amount is the equivalent of the attackers having found some holes in your defenses, exploited them and having been able to look a few warehouses instead of all.
More strike = more sections of the defenses probed = more holes found = more warehouses looted
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by Admin on Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:01 pm

souldog wrote:i can't proof it and i'm not really sure but i think i had less then 1 bill out !! i acctacked to test it out !! when i checked i never one but in the end i had like 6 bil in my hand ...
had someone run a few tests, there was a mistake in the formula.

and i adjusted the attacklog to show amount of kuwal stolen, will only show up in the actual report for now
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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

Post by . on Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:03 pm

ow ok thanks Very Happy

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Re: Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

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