limited attacks released

Nomad wrote:and now they are removed? any reason?

@ Kenzu,,,

Thanks for the explinations, they are the same as given before. Next time tho please actually answer the questions asked instead of attempting to say alot, which has little to do with the questions asked.

In case you missed them I will ask them 1 at a time so maybe you will see and understand they are questions asked and in need of an answer

1.Second choice is like all over the board. "attack training facilities and factories". So do we get to choose what we are attacking or does it attack everything?
I am 99% sure you will destroy both at once. Probably you will destroy and equal number of each type and you can never go below a certain number (you will always have enough facilities to train all the units you produce per day).

2. And what is everything? hangers, AF factories, training and weapons factories? what all does it cover? and you say 5%? 5% of what? all of them? all of them total? all of them seperately?
**Kenzu did attempt to answer this one, but I am reposting it for admin since Kenzu admitts he does not know fully, thanks for the attempt tho Kenzu**
I believe you want an answer from admin, so he shall answer.

3. Where are the income reducing attacks?
**if we are only going to get 2 types of attacks every 2 or 3 months I do not care to waste my time. I'll wait until next year to test all the attacks at once instead of wasting massive ammounts of resources foolishly testing a system with a specific and set result which is known before the button is ever pushed***
I hope we will get all 4 missions working on test within the next 7 days.

4. Whats was the point of attacking ground forces? since you can only kill what you lose? they are utterly useless when you can kill more using normal ground atacks?
***I repost these as your explination never answered part or all of some of these. More specificly can you get free kills by attacking ground forces of someone with no or 0ed AF? What is the point of creating a AF attack to do the same as what you already have? Or is it in conjunction with a ground attack? or completely seperate? Will attacks be put in place that utalise both ground and air troops at the same time?
The mission against ground forces was useless when it was released on test, because there was a bug. Not sure if it has been fixed yet. If you destroyed all enemy sams then attacking with Missile of generation 2, should allow you to kill 10% more value than what you lose. With generation 6, you will destroy 50% more than what you lose. The mission is thus not useless, as you can destroy more than what you lose. Destroying more than what you lose is the target in most cases anyway. This is the best explanation I can give you.

So in other words, give us explinations that actually explain something, not retell the same explination that has been given for over a year now. Time for something new. I do thank you for the try in Admins absence tho.

Kenzu wrote:

Nomad wrote:and now they are removed? any reason?

@ Kenzu,,,

Thanks for the explinations, they are the same as given before. Next time tho please actually answer the questions asked instead of attempting to say alot, which has little to do with the questions asked.

In case you missed them I will ask them 1 at a time so maybe you will see and understand they are questions asked and in need of an answer

1.Second choice is like all over the board. "attack training facilities and factories". So do we get to choose what we are attacking or does it attack everything?
I am 99% sure you will destroy both at once. Probably you will destroy and equal number of each type and you can never go below a certain number (you will always have enough facilities to train all the units you produce per day).
so if Kong only has 1041 weapons factories, & 1041 training facilities then none of Kongs WF or TF will be destroyed? Kong has a 50,000 UP btw
2. And what is everything? hangers, AF factories, training and weapons factories? what all does it cover? and you say 5%? 5% of what? all of them? all of them total? all of them seperately?
**Kenzu did attempt to answer this one, but I am reposting it for admin since Kenzu admitts he does not know fully, thanks for the attempt tho Kenzu**
I believe you want an answer from admin, so he shall answer.

3. Where are the income reducing attacks?
**if we are only going to get 2 types of attacks every 2 or 3 months I do not care to waste my time. I'll wait until next year to test all the attacks at once instead of wasting massive ammounts of resources foolishly testing a system with a specific and set result which is known before the button is ever pushed***
I hope we will get all 4 missions working on test within the next 7 days.

4. Whats was the point of attacking ground forces? since you can only kill what you lose? they are utterly useless when you can kill more using normal ground atacks?
***I repost these as your explination never answered part or all of some of these. More specificly can you get free kills by attacking ground forces of someone with no or 0ed AF? What is the point of creating a AF attack to do the same as what you already have? Or is it in conjunction with a ground attack? or completely seperate? Will attacks be put in place that utalise both ground and air troops at the same time?
The mission against ground forces was useless when it was released on test, because there was a bug. Not sure if it has been fixed yet. If you destroyed all enemy sams then attacking with Missile of generation 2, should allow you to kill 10% more value than what you lose. With generation 6, you will destroy 50% more than what you lose. The mission is thus not useless, as you can destroy more than what you lose. Destroying more than what you lose is the target in most cases anyway. This is the best explanation I can give you.


So in other words, give us explinations that actually explain something, not retell the same explination that has been given for over a year now. Time for something new. I do thank you for the try in Admins absence tho.

Kenzu wrote:
mission against airforce
you send fighters + heli (or bombers)
to fight against enemy airforce, and bomb enemy hangars and bomb enemy helis and bombers (which will not leave airports because they cant fight air units)
fighters will fight airforce units
helis or bombers will fight defending SAMs
and if all SAMs are destroyed, they will destroy hangars
will we be able to run sabatoge missions against AF? (sams, fighters, bombers, heli's, & munitions?)... Kong also thinks that those items that are to be destroyable (WF, TF,) should have a static rebuild cost, as it would eventually become to expensive to rebuild if the current system stays in place...

Kenzu wrote:I am 99% sure you will destroy both at once. Probably you will destroy and equal number of each type and you can never go below a certain number (you will always have enough facilities to train all the units you produce per day).


I believe you want an answer from admin, so he shall answer.

I hope we will get all 4 missions working on test within the next 7 days.

The mission against ground forces was useless when it was released on test, because there was a bug. Not sure if it has been fixed yet. If you destroyed all enemy sams then attacking with Missile of generation 2, should allow you to kill 10% more value than what you lose. With generation 6, you will destroy 50% more than what you lose. The mission is thus not useless, as you can destroy more than what you lose. Destroying more than what you lose is the target in most cases anyway. This is the best explanation I can give you.

Nomad wrote:
So you are saying that even if there is NO defense to counter AF the attacker is still going to lose the EXACT same amount they would lose if fighting a defense? I hope this is not so.

Admin wrote:

kingkongfan1 wrote:

Admin wrote:

Nomad wrote:so what happens when a no AF account is hit by a AF bearing account?

The 2 attacks listed confuse the heck out of me TBH. Neither makes much sense, but I'll try them out tomorrow, and try to make sense of them I guess.

That is the main reason for this whole munition business.

So you attack someone's stuff but you dont get free kills.
When you have no AF then it just goes on as if you were hit but your sams were all destroyed. Same as when someone with no def gets hit

I think he might be asking "what happens when a player with AF attacks a player with no AF?" (as in no sams, fighters, helis, bombers, or munitions.)

I do not expect "free" kills, just wondering what gets destroyed?

whatever the target is chosen by the mission used

kingkongfan1 wrote: If a player with a built AF attacks a player with no AF what kind of losses can the attacker expect? with the cost of AF being what it is Kong would expect more than a 1:1 ratio on the kills or that that is destroyed (weapons factories, training facilities, clinics, etc.) afaKk in the current system strike nor defense will stand against an AF attack...

kingkongfan1 wrote:

Kenzu wrote:

Nomad wrote:and now they are removed? any reason?

@ Kenzu,,,

Thanks for the explinations, they are the same as given before. Next time tho please actually answer the questions asked instead of attempting to say alot, which has little to do with the questions asked.

In case you missed them I will ask them 1 at a time so maybe you will see and understand they are questions asked and in need of an answer

1.Second choice is like all over the board. "attack training facilities and factories". So do we get to choose what we are attacking or does it attack everything?
I am 99% sure you will destroy both at once. Probably you will destroy and equal number of each type and you can never go below a certain number (you will always have enough facilities to train all the units you produce per day).
so if Kong only has 1041 weapons factories, & 1041 training facilities then none of Kongs WF or TF will be destroyed? Kong has a 50,000 UP btw
It's exactly what it says on the can, you attack traininig FACILITIES/weapons FACTORIES/aircraft FACTORIES/sam FACTORIES/munition FACTORIES
Since no one is dumb enough to build all their weapon factories at one place, it is also obviously highly ridiculous to expect to be able to attack each particular target without wasting any effort on others
Plus It'd be majorly unbalancing since realistically you only really need to destroy EITHER trainings OR weapon factories to cripple someone, not both. Logically in a strike, you'd just wipe out someones training facilities and NEVER bother with weapon factories, or the other way around
2. And what is everything? hangers, AF factories, training and weapons factories? what all does it cover? and you say 5%? 5% of what? all of them? all of them total? all of them seperately?
**Kenzu did attempt to answer this one, but I am reposting it for admin since Kenzu admitts he does not know fully, thanks for the attempt tho Kenzu**
I believe you want an answer from admin, so he shall answer.
First post about mission damages

Whatever you're attacking, you can destroy up to 5% of the target per mission.

There is absolutely NO difference between killing 5% of 1000 trainings, 1000 weapon factories 100 munition factories, 100 aircraft factories and 100 sam factories, or killing 5% of 2300 factories divided up between them proportionately => you lose 50/50/5/5/5
Weapons in strike missions get destroyed proportionately
Soldiers/Mercs in strike missions get killed proportionately
Weapons in sabotage missions get destroyed proportionately
Aircraft/Sams in airforce missions get destroyed proportionately
Munition in airforce missions gets used proportionately
Weapons in airforce ground attack missions gets destroyed proportionately
Factories in airforce missions get destroyed proportionately
Miners/Workers get killed proportionately
Notice a pattern?
Everything in this game gets destroyed proportionately unless explicitly stated (though I can't think of anything that doesn't get destroyed proportionately)

As with all other types of attacks/sabs/assassinations/whatever, that's only the max value, if you dont have enough munition to be used then you will destroy less than this 5%

3. Where are the income reducing attacks?
**if we are only going to get 2 types of attacks every 2 or 3 months I do not care to waste my time. I'll wait until next year to test all the attacks at once instead of wasting massive ammounts of resources foolishly testing a system with a specific and set result which is known before the button is ever pushed***
I hope we will get all 4 missions working on test within the next 7 days.

4. Whats was the point of attacking ground forces? since you can only kill what you lose? they are utterly useless when you can kill more using normal ground atacks?
***I repost these as your explination never answered part or all of some of these. More specificly can you get free kills by attacking ground forces of someone with no or 0ed AF? What is the point of creating a AF attack to do the same as what you already have? Or is it in conjunction with a ground attack? or completely seperate? Will attacks be put in place that utalise both ground and air troops at the same time?
The mission against ground forces was useless when it was released on test, because there was a bug. Not sure if it has been fixed yet. If you destroyed all enemy sams then attacking with Missile of generation 2, should allow you to kill 10% more value than what you lose. With generation 6, you will destroy 50% more than what you lose. The mission is thus not useless, as you can destroy more than what you lose. Destroying more than what you lose is the target in most cases anyway. This is the best explanation I can give you.
Many people would kill for having the ability to assault someone to have a 1:1 kill ratio, as you have realized by now, getting to that requires a hardcore advantage in attack techs and personal bonus


So in other words, give us explinations that actually explain something, not retell the same explination that has been given for over a year now. Time for something new. I do thank you for the try in Admins absence tho.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Nomad wrote:Its horrible in so many ways.
Highly useful comment, thank you for saying what appears to be horrible
Past that when will all the bugs get cleaned up? I understand removing the att button but why can we not train, spy, or trade due to error messages?
Last bug posted was about power being calculated incorrectly, that one got fixed. Am I to assume all bugs that are known have been cleaned up? Removed buttons were an unrelated issue, everything should be back to normal again

So you are saying that even if there is NO defense to counter AF the attacker is still going to lose the EXACT same amount they would lose if fighting a defense? I hope this is not so.

kingkongfan1 wrote:Kong has read thru the above & still doesn't know "HOW" a player with 0 air force action can damage Kongs 1) fighters, 2) bombers, 3) heli's? are you saying that a players regular defense will fend off an airstrike? if so why invest in sams?

Admin wrote:
I would like to know how to came to that conclusion/where did you see me write anything about that, we're all talking in circles, so if I would be capable of understanding your train of thought, I might be able to adjust what I'm writing

Admin wrote:

Nomad wrote:Its horrible in so many ways.

Highly useful comment, thank you for saying what appears to be horrible

Nomad wrote:I still can not do anything in test, no training, trading, nor attacking.
every single action has worked for me

We have asked multiple times now a very basic question Martin.

What happens when player A, who has NO AF/has had their AF oed by being attacked or loss of munitions, is attacked by player B who has a fully stocked AF?
I'll repeat myself, again. The same thing happens as when someone goes hunt your assassins when you have ZERO defense action. Attacker proceeds to destroy his intended target and loses no units whatsoever

You continue to state over and over that both will lose the exact same amount adjusted only by the differences in levels/generations or 10% difference per level.
Which is exactly what happens, and I also stated over and over that right NOW generations dont make a difference, and was asking whether to put flat bonus or generation based or whatever

We keep asking how ground forces can kill the same amount of AF as AF can kill of ground forces.
Ground forces dont kill shit. Read my posts, I stated over and over that attacker uses munition to destroy ground forces.
Are you aware that to build this munition costs something? and using it amounts to losing some kuwal value? and losing the same kuwal value in munition as you kill kuwal value in weapons or factories or whatever ends up as a 1:1 kill ratio?

I do not know any simpler way to put it.
Neither do I, I am sorry about that

As for specifics about how horrible the system is.

1. Its RA all over again, Why you dont just turn the game over to Kenzu to finish ruining and be done with it is beyond me. It makes NO sense to remove size of army from an equation. It makes no sense to remove the "win/lose" from a battle and the change in losses that come from it. It makes no sense to make an attack that can be fully realized to a tee without EVER pressing a button.
I disagree, see below
Also how is win/loss removed, when did it exist in battles in the first place?
An assault mission was never about winning or losing?
What is winning or losing in the first place? (if you answer "bigger power" then see point 3)


2. More specificly, As RA is set up it does not matter if you sens 10 against 10, or 10 against 100, or 10 agains 1,000,000 it doesnt effect the loses and that is stupid. All it does is negate all the units and the trillions of kewal invested in them as it takes only the 10 sent against you into the equation. the other 990 or 999,990 are for not and useless. It removes building more low level weapons to counter the strength od better techs on someone else.
You have seriously not tried to do even a single mission against someone who has an airforce.
I send 1k Bombers vs your 200 Sams. I'll destroys tons more than you will

3. Why does winning or losing a battle no longer matter? Another "variable" removed from the game that adds nothing from its death but takes away so much. Seems every single AF attack can be predefined with certinty so the end result is know to the tee before the battle begins. If you honestly consider what your doing, This will do nothing more then polarize the game more because it will definitely push the game more into a state of all power lies in numbers and most active. Underlieing issues are what happens when everyone is level 6? Everyone will be EXACTLY the same, and everyone will lose EXACTLY the same so whats the point? the high cost makes it mostly useless other then a first strike feature, and it will be used as a group against a few because for 1 on 1 combat it is in fact USELESS.
1) when did winning or losing a battle ever matter? it's a load in the first place because that means whoever builds a bigger force wins and hence will KEEP winning
2) see point above

As I told you in the beginning of this venture. this idea, and your territory idea has been used in no less then 3 games I know of and have played. It has failed in all three. Yes you are taking a different path, but sadly its a path even more destructive to the game than the others were.

If you still can not understand the question about AF vs no AF PM me a time and day maybe we can get on chat. I do not feel I am able to express it properly on forums. It is just a communication issue I think we can clarify in a chat.

Nomad wrote:Anyone else having issues? I still can not spy, trade, and the att buttons are removed. I also can not attempt to use gold, so is it just me?


so if you kill the same amount as you lose then if you get a better ration for normal ground on ground attacks then its not very useful then right? Its only useful to those who have a negative kill ratio?


I just do not get you. You state over and over you lose an = amount as you kill. Period. next breath you say you kill far more then you lose. I dont get it.
He didn't make himself clear, but he meant that you lose the same amount of airforce ACTION as you kill. Obviously with better techs you can reach equal airforce action cheaper.

Either way hopefully you will get the attacks out there to be tested and get the bugs worked out.

*edit*
I have always been under the impression that winning vs being repelled made a difference on the loss ratio. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but that has always been my impression.

*another edit*
So what "cost" are taken into account to determine how many units and weapons are killed in ground forces with AF?

Example is it
150,000 training
375,000 unit cost
522,000 weapon cost
or
150,000 training
522,000 weapon cost
or
522,000 weapon cost

(example uses 375,000 unit cost as example, not set price, i assume it would use the GM value at the time of attacks, and with MA with a weapon cost of 522,000)

presently generation 2 helicopter missles cost 12,000,000 with a power of 538,000. So how many defense UU and weapons will 10 fired munitions kill?

Nomad wrote:I DID state it was gen 2 if you re read it Kenzu, so will you please now answer the question asked?

How did you come to the figure of 12,607 soilders with MA?

Kenzu wrote:

Nomad wrote:I DID state it was gen 2 if you re read it Kenzu, so will you please now answer the question asked?

How did you come to the figure of 12,607 soilders with MA?

value of weapons used * technology (+10% per level, starting at 100% for level 1) / value of 1 soldier with 1 weapon.

Attack Ground Forces
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce with Helicopters
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce with Bombers
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Training Facilities / Weapon Factories
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce Factories (SAM, Aircraft, Munition)
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Nomad wrote:

Attack Ground Forces
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce with Helicopters
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce with Bombers
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Training Facilities / Weapon Factories
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce Factories (SAM, Aircraft, Munition)
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

I am just a bit confused so please help me understand. I thought Helicopters were used on ground forces?
I thought bombers were used only on land objects such as buildings and SAM's

The descriptions above sound as tho helicopters and bombers are used to shoot down enemy fighters, helicopters, and bombers?

Nomad wrote:
! additional question will AF and ground attacks always be seperate? or will there one day be a button to lets say,,,,,,,,,,, do an assault backed up by your air force?(assault and destruction are the only two I think would benifit from it, if any would)

Nomad wrote:

Attack Ground Forces
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce with Helicopters
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce with Bombers
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Training Facilities / Weapon Factories
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

Attack Airforce Factories (SAM, Aircraft, Munition)
5 Attack Turns / 8 Supply Turns needed

I am just a bit confused so please help me understand. I thought Helicopters were used on ground forces?
I thought bombers were used only on land objects such as buildings and SAM's

Yes correct. That these 2 sentences as the base of your assumption and add that fighting airforce can be done with helis and bombers too for better gameplay.

The descriptions above sound as tho helicopters and bombers are used to shoot down enemy fighters, helicopters, and bombers?

! additional question will AF and ground attacks always be seperate? or will there one day be a button to lets say,,,,,,,,,,, do an assault backed up by your air force?(assault and destruction are the only two I think would benifit from it, if any would)

This one was never intended to exist in the first place, so no