TOC & TIE Peace Treaty Discussion

intresting idea kenzu, sets war to TIE

Sorry Kenzu - its not practical. As curumo put it... its a lot of work.

Frankly I m not too fussed regarding sabbing & assassinating. TIE caught FIRE in the act of sabbing our members... and while we didn't discover the identity of the attacker, we did get compensation.

The problem is more T.O.C's allegations/ suspicion concerning TIE - and namely the requirement to prove or disprove TIE's guilt. Having thought it through for a while now - I ve come to the conclusion that anything which compromises TIE's sovereignty to prove or disprove TIE's guilt... is basically only due to T.O.C paranoia. TIE shouldn't suffer a loss of our entire sovereignty (i.e. if ingame ambassadors are used) or be bound to overly complex rules (i.e. having to declare peace etc... after farming) simply to make T.O.C feel a little safer. Your paranoia is your own - its certainly not TIE's....

To illustrate that paranoia - I ll quote you basically what you said when I asked you why you thought TIE was responsible for the sabbing & assassinations against WR - you said it had to be TIE because noone else is strong enough - something utterly false when you consider:

a.) There are many others outside of TIE are certainly strong enough to profitably sabb/assassinate most of WR/ TOC
b.) Many more outside of TIE CAN sabb/ assassinate most of TOC... it just may not be profitable to do so... but if they are doing it for other reasons (i.e. prevoke a war, gain experience etc...) profitably is not necessarily going to be their primary concern.

Incidentally, this reminds me - Kira was responsible for various sabbing & assassinating on TIE shortly before the war (Viper was one of the victims) - both Curumo & Jiro confirmed those logs when she became their officer to disprove her responsibility for the attacks on FIRE. As soon as a peace is signed TIE's strike team will be free to return the favour.

Note: The red bit is more to remind myself/ TIE we have unfinished business with Kira - since otherwise I ll forget like i did before lol. My thanks Kenzu for reminding me that TIE came under unprevoked attack by Kira - likely to try and make us believe FIRE/ WR were responsible for the sabbing & assassinations and thereby strike you.

@ The rest of the server - Kira will be made a example of later on as to exactly what you can expect if you start sabbing or assassinating Imperium Members without good cause - and ESPECIALLY when you do it to try and add to the tension between TIE & other alliances, and attempt to start a war.

Kira = I.d 701.... just incase she changes her name to avoid her fate she's decided for herself.

Kira = guy lol

ian i already regret i didnt farm you today, just to remind you that it's never healthy to lie, especially not on public

Spoiler:

It's not a lie, was just an honest mistake I believe

I don't recall Kira ever being cleared to be honest ...

Not sure if you noticed but your sentences are obviously strange. You don't make any sense or you're just a bad liar.

I'm not responsible for any attacks. I never joined curumo as officer and Jiro confirmed my logs as clean.

Nice try.

No, you didn't - but I did offer it, so I can see where the confusion is coming from. Please move on - once Ian realizes that Kira was cleared, I'm sure he won't put those plans into action. No need for ironic or sarcastic or insulting comments, or is there?

WhatsASniper1 wrote:Apparently Kira made me his officer now.
I can confirm Jiro's screenshots, only Viper is listed in all Assassin logs, 1 sec ill screenshot them as well.

So kira was found to have assassated viper in the acreen shots and it was confirmed by 2 players.
. The rest is true.
While ian did say cruumo

Hands in the cookie jar ... My bad - then it was as I said - Ian did only mistake me for WaS. Thanks again Sea

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:ian i already regret i didnt farm you today, just to remind you that it's never healthy to lie, especially not on public

Spoiler:

Oh my mistake. I was under the belief Curumo had checked the logs. As it is Jiro & Whatsasniper did - and I m happy to trust their word a hell of a lot more than yours (since you repeatedly tried to cover for him) and Kira's.

Just for the record:

Jiro wrote:These are the screenshots I took from Kira's Assassin and Defence logs. I've taken screenshots of all other logs as well.
[img][/img]
[img][/img]

Thats from this thread here: https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/general-discussion-f1/kira-hide-anything-much-t1631-30.htm

I ll also quote the post before your OWN response:

seaborgium wrote:tbh Ian your only helping King, you are more standing up for Uni and Command92 and Viper

cabal wrote:Defense logs
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:37 Unimatrix-001 Defense Success: 136,879
[08 Jun] 14:17 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:16 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:16 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:16 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:13 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:13 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:13 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:13 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
[08 Jun] 14:13 Viper Defense Success: 166,192
Assassin logs
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:38 command92 Assassin Success: 16,681 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details
[07 Jun] 04:36 command92 Assassin Success: 25,019 details

Then your response afterwards:

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:All of these attacks were made druing war ( im saying for viper ) the question here is who attacked kingshinobis and caused a war ( i guess ), it obviously wasnt Kira, logs comming soon, i hope you will realize how stupid you were

You yourself admitted the above attacks happened..... Here's the problem though: Kira & your alliance were NEVER in the war. You never made it known, you never did any "visible" attacks. You just decided to covertly try to help out via sabbing & assassinations and hoping you could get away with it.... guess what? You haven't - not this time. We ve remembered.

Also:

WhatsASniper1 wrote:Apparently Kira made me his officer now.
I can confirm Jiro's screenshots, only Viper is listed in all Assassin logs, 1 sec ill screenshot them as well.

WhatsASniper1 wrote:The pic get cropped on the forum, these links should work.
Just click the images to zoom in.
I don't know if it's just been so long that the old logs are gone, or cabal was bluffing.
Just posting what I can see.



https://i.servimg.com/u/f60/15/30/58/57/pic_112.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f60/15/30/58/57/pic_211.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f60/15/30/58/57/pic_312.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f60/15/30/58/57/6-11-212.jpg

Attacking The Imperium was a bad move on Kira's part - especially when in the previous (or possibly first) WR/ TIE war you guys attacked one or 2 TIE members (seaborgium being one of them) knowing we had our hands fall with WR and you wouldn't be a priority target to retaliate against.

The first time was a mistake that those attacks went unanswered and unavenged by TIE. This time we won't make that mistake.

Kira - I.d 701
Buhcorethegreat - I.d. 664

Pay back's a bitch - or soon will be.

Ian you're not worth of my words so i will keep it simple,
viper was attacked for exp and it was only because vesper once killed my spies to gain exp as well - kira needed exp so he attacked poor viper with almost no assasin power
as you said, pay back's a bitch

oh and if you dont understand something cuz it seems you dont - then reread your post, you made quite clear how kira actually is - thanks

Kira wrote:I'm not responsible for any attacks. I never joined curumo as officer and Jiro confirmed my logs as clean. Nice try.

I m afraid publically lieing isn't going to help you (assassinations = attacks) - especially when your supposed defence of "Jiro confirmed my logs as clean" is actually "Jiro confirmed I assassinated at least 1 TIE member - i.e. Viper"

I m well aware your logs before the TIE/ TOC war were wiped by a "divine power". I also fully appreciate and understand why they were wiped - because of the hack done to the game which resulted in your account (like mine, Kenzu's, LI's etc...) being hacked into and whoever was responsible for the hack abusing that access - whether it be disbanding the alliance (in my, kenzu & LI's case), or in your case - making what should be secret information (assassinations/ sabbings) public knowledge via creating that thread:

https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/general-discussion-f1/kira-hide-anything-much-t1631.htm

Had the hack not happened, that information would not have been public... and you wouldn't have come under as much suspicion by TIE & FIRE. Thereby the only way to *partly* correct the damage done to your account would be for the deletion of the logs by the divine power, hopefully thereby clearing you.

But... this is all my opinion & calculated guess work concerning the attacks done before the war (since there's no logs or "evidence"). As such TIE will respect what the divine power was hoping to achieve - and won't take the information gained from the hacker (created in the above thread) into account. What we will take into account however is the testimonies by your 2 temporary commanders - Jiro & Whatsasniper concerning your attacks on Viper, which is:

- You assassinated Viper at the start of the war - without ever actually being in the war, having anything done to you to be in the war, or making it known you were in the war - and you ve never made it known you were in the war right up untill this very second at typing.
- The assassination hits would probably have appeared as ??? in TIE's logs - and in a war, the logical TIE conclusion would be they were by TOC - not by you.
- Consequently the logical conclusion is you attacked TIE secretly, hoping we d interpret the attacks as being by TOC - thereby preventing yourself being caught and avoiding any retaliation.

But.... the retaliation was only postponed... not cancelled. You were caught in the act of attacking TIE - whether it be by the failed sabbing attempt on Viper which happened *right* after Viper got assassinated (conclusion = you d be responsible for the assassinations as well if you failed trying to sabb him), or whether it be by Jiro & Whatsasniper's testimonies.

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:Ian you're not worth of my words so i will keep it simple,
viper was attacked for exp and it was only because vesper once killed my spies to gain exp as well - kira needed exp so he attacked poor viper with almost no assasin power
as you said, pay back's a bitch

oh and if you dont understand something cuz it seems you dont - then reread your post, you made quite clear how kira actually is - thanks

Attacking a TIE member for experience is a act of war. Vesper's attacks on you don't excuse anything - mainly because:

a.) The attacks were on you - not on Kira.
b.) The attacks were by Vesper - not Viper
c.) You made absolutely zero attempt at contacting TIE concerning the attacks - yet now seem to think Kira can kill TIE at will.

Thanks for clarifying Kira's attacks were "pay back" for the attacks on you though - as that now means we can hold you accountable as well

Spoiler:

Attacking a Neverlight member for experience is a act of war. Vesper's attacks are no excuse - mainly because:

a.) The attacks were done on Neverlight Leader
b.) The attacks were made by TIE HC member with no explanation, the attacker clearly showed a lot of interest for further attacking - again, with no reason
c.) You made absolutely zero attempt at contacting Neverlight concerning the attacks - yet now seem to think you Ian can kill Neverlight at will.

Thanks for clarifying Vesper's attacks because you also lied about that.

- attacks on Viper were made DURING war, the drama about kira was about provoking the war - you have absolutely no rights to attempt any attacks against me or kira and waste my precious time, but i will take it as fun

Ian, I think it is strange to say that Buhcore's logs were cleaned by divine power. You seem to have absolute faith in the accuracy of the information provided, even though we know that some of the attacks were from a different player.
The logs posted by "the hacker" were a fake as far as I can tell. If you have more information regarding the reliability of the hackers' postings, please let us know.
So the only issue with Kira and Buhcore here is the assassinations on Viper. And why is it in the peace section?

ian wrote:The problem is more T.O.C's allegations/ suspicion concerning TIE - and namely the requirement to prove or disprove TIE's guilt. Having thought it through for a while now - I ve come to the conclusion that anything which compromises TIE's sovereignty to prove or disprove TIE's guilt... is basically only due to T.O.C paranoia. TIE shouldn't suffer a loss of our entire sovereignty (i.e. if ingame ambassadors are used) or be bound to overly complex rules (i.e. having to declare peace etc... after farming) simply to make T.O.C feel a little safer. Your paranoia is your own - its certainly not TIE's....

To illustrate that paranoia - I ll quote you basically what you said when I asked you why you thought TIE was responsible for the sabbing & assassinations against WR - you said it had to be TIE because noone else is strong enough - something utterly false when you consider:

a.) There are many others outside of TIE are certainly strong enough to profitably sabb/assassinate most of WR/ TOC
b.) Many more outside of TIE CAN sabb/ assassinate most of TOC... it just may not be profitable to do so... but if they are doing it for other reasons (i.e. prevoke a war, gain experience etc...) profitably is not necessarily going to be their primary concern.

I am not a person who believes in conspiracies.

Fact is, WR members have been sabbed, not one member, not two, but roughly 4 or 5.
Another fact is that looking at the current alliance distribution, there are 3 major alliances, each is a multiple in strength of the 4th highest alliance. I will not buy the idea that some alliance which has 50 billion power will sab an alliance which has 200 billion power simply because it doesn't make any sense. As we can see, there was a war, and even if this was the goal of this "secret power", then it as we can see didnt lead to that alliance becomming strongest. The other alliances can try as hard as they want, but if you look at WR, Mujengan and Imperium, alliances with 30-60 members, they cant be overtaken by alliances of 5 or 10 members. To become a major alliance, this kind of little conspiracies can get you closer, but if you really want to reach top ranks, you need a lot of members. Recruitment is more successful than just some hideous sab plans.

Without proper methods how to see who sabbed you, you can never find out who the attacker is. You might have hints, but that's not good enough. It would be stupid to go mass a player only because you suspect him. However, if the player is suspected because there is some evidence, and the player doesnt let others check his logs, then he is much more likely to be guilty.

There is no way we can still check logs to find out the truth. So for the future we must work out a system that eventually is based on trust.
Whether you trust someone to not doctor screenshots or to not use information obtained about other things when checking logs, in the end it boils down to trust.
There was a proposal in which each alliance designated someone who would check logs in case of assassinations/sabbs. I think it is an OK system if the right people are put forward and everyone involved promises that these people will be truthful in their log audits.

I agree with Jiro and I think that for the sake of a future (of any kind) we should let certain things be bygones and concentrate on the future. Learn from them and get over them. That's just my point of view. As for the logs - Jiro you did confirm them - and that's enough for me. Be that as it may - should this war come to an end I will submit my candidacy to Ian for this position in case of such hostile actions. Think people know and trust me enough to know that I'm not someone who'd screw anyone over or exploit the situation.

This is why I said it was a FOOLS DREAM that a treaty could be hammered out in less then 48 hrs. Almost 2 Days gone and not a single point set in stone, and few loosely agreed upon yes, but little more.

FOCUS people, Please.

This is a thread titled

TOC & TIE Peace Treaty Discussion

Can we get back on topic and stay there?!?!?!?!?

Yes I know the Farming policy will be one of if not the largest hurtle in this thing but if we can't settle it now lets jump to others and atleast get some forward progress.

As it stands, looking back the only thing that I think we all agree on is

Cost of UU in calculations being set up by the leaders of all participating alliances and voted on every 30 days as to increase or decrease.

If any of you see any other points you might be able to settle on lets get them done.

5 days and 3 hrs or so let before ceasefire ends, lets be productive people.

Kenzu wrote:

ian wrote:The problem is more T.O.C's allegations/ suspicion concerning TIE - and namely the requirement to prove or disprove TIE's guilt. Having thought it through for a while now - I ve come to the conclusion that anything which compromises TIE's sovereignty to prove or disprove TIE's guilt... is basically only due to T.O.C paranoia. TIE shouldn't suffer a loss of our entire sovereignty (i.e. if ingame ambassadors are used) or be bound to overly complex rules (i.e. having to declare peace etc... after farming) simply to make T.O.C feel a little safer. Your paranoia is your own - its certainly not TIE's....

To illustrate that paranoia - I ll quote you basically what you said when I asked you why you thought TIE was responsible for the sabbing & assassinations against WR - you said it had to be TIE because noone else is strong enough - something utterly false when you consider:

a.) There are many others outside of TIE are certainly strong enough to profitably sabb/assassinate most of WR/ TOC
b.) Many more outside of TIE CAN sabb/ assassinate most of TOC... it just may not be profitable to do so... but if they are doing it for other reasons (i.e. prevoke a war, gain experience etc...) profitably is not necessarily going to be their primary concern.

I am not a person who believes in conspiracies..

And yet you believe there was a conspiracy within TIE to cover up sabbing/assassinating done against TOC before the war?

Jiro wrote:There is no way we can still check logs to find out the truth. So for the future we must work out a system that eventually is based on trust.
Whether you trust someone to not doctor screenshots or to not use information obtained about other things when checking logs, in the end it boils down to trust.
There was a proposal in which each alliance designated someone who would check logs in case of assassinations/sabbs. I think it is an OK system if the right people are put forward and everyone involved promises that these people will be truthful in their log audits.

I think this system is ok.

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:Thanks for clarifying Vesper's attacks because you also lied about that.

- attacks on Viper were made DURING war, the drama about kira was about provoking the war - you have absolutely no rights to attempt any attacks against me or kira and waste my precious time, but i will take it as fun

Clarifying what attacks by Vesper? I m taking your word for it the attacks happened... i have absolutely no idea whether or not they actually did.

As for the attacks on Viper during the war.... unless i m missing something here, you weren't in the war... At least not the TOC/TIE one... though we could probably look at Kira's actions as the opening stages of a TIE/Neverlight war... as thats what your implying by trying to justify the attacks on Viper as being during the war...

As for rights to attack... who need's rights? Sure...you can go cry to T.O.C that evil nasty TIE may target you & kira... but then again you just admitted Kira targeted Viper for military experience... something very much frowned upon by both TOC & TIE. If you can kill TIE players for Military Experience.... then its safe to say TIE can kill you in retaliation.

The question is... what incentive is there for TIE to forget about your & kira's declaration of war on TIE?

Incidentally... if TIE's wills (chooses) it, yes we can kill Neverlight at will....

@Ian

Spoiler:

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:@Ian

Spoiler:

Despite what you may think TIE isn't out for blood or to be unreasonable. If your happy to compensate then thats fine. 200% is a bit excessive to be honest - so TIE will be happy to settle on 140%. The extra 30% because generally thats what seem to be the "trend" in fines for hostile actions based on TIE & TOC's discussions... and a further 10% to reflect the time which has passed between the attacks on Viper & now.

For future reference IF you come under attack by a TIE member... contact me please. I can't micromanage ALL of TIE's logs... so I rely on people who have a problem to make the problem known so it can be investigated... lol

If you can broker Viper that would be appreciated

Thanks

Lord Ishurue wrote:15 tier policy first 5 tiers increase by 1mil army , next 5 tiers increase by 2 mil army . next 5 tiers increase by 3mil .

Population tiers
0- 1,000,000 = 150mil profit ( profit is high because u can go hit a 0 defense account )
1million1 - 2million = 300mil profit
2mil1 - 3mil = 450mil profit
3mil1 - 4mil = 600mil profit
4mil1-5mil = 750mil profit

5mil1 - 7mil = 1.3bil profit ( This is where TIE and FIRE/WR old policy cuts off )
7mil1 -9mil = 1.6bil profit
9mil1 - 11mil = 1.9bil profit
11mil1 - 13mil = 2.2bil profit
13mil1 - 15mil = 2.5bil profit

15mil1 - 18mil = 2.9 bil profit
18mil1 - 21mil = 3.2bil
21.1mil-24mil= 3.5bil profit
24.1mil- 27mil = 3.8bil profit
28mil + = 4.bil profit

[/color]

There's a possibility that could be adopted.... however if it were to be adopted I would like it under the condition that it be for a 28 day trial period (from whenever we allow normal farming/ raiding to happen), after which the T.O.C & TIE leadership meet again to discuss whether the policy is adequate (while discussions are underway we d stick to the policy) and to enact any changes which having seen it in practise... they may feel need to be adopted (after discussion between the respective parties).

Excessive Military Clause:

No more than 9 days worth of economic generation (Unit Production x UU rate decided by the leaders + daily income) invested into strike - if you have more than 9 days your not permitted to farm TIE/ TOC.

No more than 40% of army size invested into military - if you have more than 40% your not permitted to farm TIE/ TOC.

Those with less than 3 days economic generation invested in defence are not covered by the above policy - meaning hits on those members merely have to make a minimum of 150million profit on those members.

Breaches:

ALL breaches get fully compensated in terms of kuwal for training & weapon costs + kuwal stolen, and the UU lost by the defender directly replaced + a 30% fine on top of that i.e. if you kill/take 1billions worth of resources between kuwal stolen & the training/ weapon costs and kill 1000 UU, you compensate 1.3billion kuwal & 1300 UU.

All leaders agree to meet and discuss problematic members who consistently breach the policy and to discuss alternative methods of punishment and whether or not they should be used & under what conditions any agreed alternative punishment should be conducted.

A couple of examples (this list is not exhaustive) of possible alternative methods of punishment:

- Increased fine % (i.e. up from 30% to 60% for example)
- Farming sanctions (not allowed to farm for XXX days, or only allowed to farm in a limited sense etc...)
- Limited sabbing based on a % of weapons to be destroyed I.e. take out 30% of the breacher's weapons - leaving 30% of his supers unarmed which will effectively cripple his ability to profitably farm.
- Limited Assassination.
- Limited Assault (i.e. 50% of defence wiped out) + increased farming of him under a special policy (conditions would be discussed) for XXX days.
- Limited Assault + destruction.
- Complete massing

A discussion would be necessary (rather than pre-defined punishments for breaches) since each member/breacher should be treated on a case by case basis - so basically making sure any punishment fits the crime....

UU rate:

Leaders meet to discuss every month (i.e. set the date at say.. the 25th of every month for example) the UU rate to be adopted by TIE & TOC to enable working out of profit margins, compensation etc...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incidentally I feel we ARE making progress in the peace talks... so in the event (we may finish the talks before) we haven't finished the talks before the ceasefire is due to expire... would TOC be willing to extend it further?

Whats TOC's thoughts on the above... or indeed whats other TIE member's thoughts (I haven't had chance to discuss the above with TIE yet).

Thanks