Bold rework of farming system [VERY LONG]

by Admin Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:56 pm

Proposed system:
- Before attack you select how many attacks (1-10 attacks)
- Each attack costs 1 AT (total 10 AT best hit)
- 1 attack = 10% of max losses; 10 attacks = 100% of max losses
- VV Kuwal stolen VV

Spoiler:

Old Text

Spoiler:

by Sandwalker Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:03 pm

you didn't mention it, but I think I know the answer. Still, to be seen by everyone.

The AT/ST cost of a 1 attack mission is 20% the AT/ST cost of a 5 attack mission?

by Nomad Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:11 pm

From what I see I am incouraged to agree with it.

few questions

Super is a 1 time multiplier? so supers are the same power as normal men? if so why, whats the reason for having them?

Random factor of strike power in battle changed from 90-105% to 75-120% (identical average value)
- Random factor of defense power in battle remains unchanged at 90-105%

why just strike? if you do both strike and def then you only have to do half the amount. then you have a more dynamic set up as both may go high, low or in opposite directions. reason I would like to see them more equal is a strike can abuse its 15% advantage, that make strikes 15% stronger then an equal def.

by Hai-Shulud Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:14 pm

I like and support, makes it more interesting

by Admin Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:18 pm

Nomad wrote:
Super is a 1 time multiplier? so supers are the same power as normal men? if so why, whats the reason for having them?

Right now if you arm a super with a knife which has 5 power you get 50 strike/defense action (10 multiplier x5 knife power)
normals consequently give 25 power with a knife (5 multiplier x5 knife power)

The update would make this
Super => 1 multiplier x 50 knife power = 50 Action
Normal => 0.5 multiplier x 50 knife power = 25 Action
Action remains the same

Nomad wrote:
Random factor of strike power in battle changed from 90-105% to 75-120% (identical average value)
- Random factor of defense power in battle remains unchanged at 90-105%

why just strike? if you do both strike and def then you only have to do half the amount. then you have a more dynamic set up as both may go high, low or in opposite directions. reason I would like to see them more equal is a strike can abuse its 15% advantage, that make strikes 15% stronger then an equal def.

lol how can you abuse something that's random, it would go both ways, plus even if you dont beat the def but miss it by a few % you'll be still very likely to get some kuwal and very close to the amount you would have gotten with a successful hit.

Reason for no increasing random chance for def. Dunno if someone gets 120% and the other 75% that's 1.6 fold difference. For the attacker farming that's a statistical disadvantage, he gains no benefits for having a ratio of higher than 1, but loses out on all the fights where the ratio drops below 1.

by Admin Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:20 pm

Sandwalker wrote:you didn't mention it, but I think I know the answer. Still, to be seen by everyone.

The AT/ST cost of a 1 attack mission is 20% the AT/ST cost of a 5 attack mission?

yes and added

by Sandwalker Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:23 pm

I would agree with these ideas.

It all boils down to adding the option to attack for variable return.

by Admin Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:31 pm

Sandwalker wrote:I would agree with these ideas.

It all boils down to adding the option to attack for variable return.

and the option of having the chance of stealing something from a defense that's larger than your strike

by Sandwalker Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:40 pm

yes, that too.

by Kenzu Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:08 am

I AGREE WITH
Have 10 times more points for weapons and attack and defense units have 0.1 of power

I DISAGREE WITH
- Random factor of strike power in battle changed from 90-105% to 75-120% (identical average value)
- Random factor of defense power in battle remains unchanged at 90-105%

Dont force players to attack multiple times!
It would be a waste of time.

Instead make changes only to those who would fail under present circumstances.

by Kira Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:24 am

lol this is awesome ..
i agree with everything.. was thinking to propose this .. plus it makes the game more real..

by Admin Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:33 am

Kenzu wrote:Dont force players to attack multiple times!
It would be a waste of time.

not forcing anyone, default setting will be that you attack once and steal all kuwal, just like now
all you'll need to do is have a strike larger than a def and press one single button, just like now
direct contradiction to the suggestion

by Kenzu Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:51 am

instead of having a big distribution of possible attack/defense action 75%-120%,

0.75/1.1=0.681

1/0.681 = 1.47

=> this means that an attacker has to have practically 47% more strike than defender to be 100% sure to steal kuwal!

INSTEAD make more possibilities of attack:

Standard Attack
Attacker deals 100% damage

Attack with Risk
Attacker deals 75%-125% damage

Attack with high Risk
Attacker deals 50%-150% damage

Attack with highest Risk
Attacker deals 0%-200% damage

by Kismet Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:57 am

I don't agree with:
Random factor of strike power in battle changed from 90-105% to 75-120% (identical average value)

Plus how does that affect those who have actually invested in defense techs? Those get very expensive in time and would make it virtually worthless if you change it to 75% (random factor if someone has invested up to 125%, it would cancel out that 25%)

Also, how will this affect Miraya who automatically has bonuses to defense? Or to Daning who have the bonuses to attack?

- Both amount stolen and the chance of anything being stolen at all in case of a defeated attack depends on the strike/defense ratio. So even a strike that's half of a defense power has a chance of stealing something but even if it's just one attack it will not be anywhere the 30% you normally could get.

To me this is telling people you get a chance to take their kuwal, attack several times! I kinda agree with kenzu on this. Especially if your strike repairs are very low in comparison (including retraining lost units).

- Unit power dropped by a factor of 10 (Super instead of giving 10 fold multiplier of weapon used, will become 1 fold multiplier)

Don't make the supers COST 10x since they'll only be worth 2x (2 times the regulars) instead of 10x with this. To do this, give a refund on the 10x we've spent on supers over regular soldiers as well. We paid for the 10x power, not 1x vs 0.5x.

Not only are these bold changes, they're changes being made to the basic operation of the game almost 10 months after the game has come out and we still have several areas of the game that aren't functional yet. Meaning those who have paid the kuwal for the weapons levels and the supers/regular soldiers + arming them are set back so the newer players have more of an advantage. Right now newer players can still attack other newer players and get up higher instead of sitting at rank #300+. Also people have paid real cash (euros/usd) for advances or upgrades, including on the black market which will be negated because of some of these changes. Such as spending $$ to get enough to buy more supers at 10x the cost of a regular soldier. Or buying kuwal to up the techs.

New people can still attack new and lower people or people who have abandoned the game and left their accounts open without deleting since those accounts still have uu and produce kuwal (even in small amounts).

This way, someone ranked #300 can attack the #3 player and get something from him/her. What would be the point then?

by Sandwalker Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:59 am

@Kenzu: why don't we just implement a random number generator, when someone attacks someone else, each of them rolls a dice with the generator. The highest dice roll wins the kuwal. Weeeeee, ins't this fun?

by Kenzu Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:02 am

admin wanted to decrease the power of both normal and super soldiers by 10 and multiplying the amount of hitpoints for weapons by 10 which means strike and defense will be making same damage.

Sandwalker wrote:@Kenzu: why don't we just implement a random number generator, when someone attacks someone else, each of them rolls a dice with the generator. The highest dice roll wins the kuwal. Weeeeee, ins't this fun?

admin suggests the same thing

0.75/1.05=0.7142857
1/0.7142857=1.4 => 140%

I will have to have 40% more strike than defender if I want to make sure not to fail in a farm attack, which is complete nonsense!

(Currently you need only 17% more strike than enemy defense to win)

0.9/1.05=0.8571
1/0.8571=1.166 => 117%

by Sandwalker Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:31 am

*sigh*

He's throwing 3-face dice. You're throwing 9.

by Kenzu Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:35 am

Sandwalker wrote:*sigh*

He's throwing 3-face dice. You're throwing 9.

please explain.

what 3 faces what 9 faces?

by Sandwalker Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:40 am

figure of speech. Don't worry about it. Implementing options that rely too heavily on chance in a game based on efficiency will result in options that are never used.

by Admin Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:57 am

Kismet wrote:

Plus how does that affect those who have actually invested in defense techs? Those get very expensive in time and would make it virtually worthless if you change it to 75% (random factor if someone has invested up to 125%, it would cancel out that 25%)

Also, how will this affect Miraya who automatically has bonuses to defense? Or to Daning who have the bonuses to attack?

Not at all because the definition of random is, that it's random.
Doing 100 attacks and you will get that on average you do 97.5% power of your real value. Just makes it more interesting and a bit less predictable, which I think would add to this game. Sometimes a rocket or a tank can fail, and sometimes just losing one tank can make all the difference.

Kismet wrote:
- Both amount stolen and the chance of anything being stolen at all in case of a defeated attack depends on the strike/defense ratio. So even a strike that's half of a defense power has a chance of stealing something but even if it's just one attack it will not be anywhere the 30% you normally could get.
To me this is telling people you get a chance to take their kuwal, attack several times! I kinda agree with kenzu on this. Especially if your strike repairs are very low in comparison (including retraining lost units).

Yes but dont forget that you have to pay repairs and suffer losses with each attack, even in those where you dont gain anything.
Plus lower strike means lower chance of succeeding, disproportionately more than what you save on repairs and losses. So it's cheaper for you to build a strike that always wins than to go around with one that never wins.

So sure you might catch the odd lucky hit where you defeat someone and gain a lot. But on the other hand if you rely on a low strike you will more often than not attack someone, get defended and be left with nothing but units lost and weapons in need of being repaired.
And obviously every now and then you'll hit a streak where you will attack and attack, attack and attack but never gain anything even though you should, meaning you'll be at a horrible loss and would have saved money had you bothered to build that proper strike

Kismet wrote:
- Unit power dropped by a factor of 10 (Super instead of giving 10 fold multiplier of weapon used, will become 1 fold multiplier)
Don't make the supers COST 10x since they'll only be worth 2x (2 times the regulars) instead of 10x with this. To do this, give a refund on the 10x we've spent on supers over regular soldiers as well. We paid for the 10x power, not 1x vs 0.5x.

No, right now you paid 10 times the amount of kuwal for 10x vs 5x the power. Please be so nice to read that part again, end power will not change at all.
Weapons get increased tenfold, ALL soldiers get weakened tenfold.
if you have 100 mil power, divide it by 10 and then multiply it by 10 you end up with 100 mil.

Kismet wrote:New people can still attack new and lower people or people who have abandoned the game and left their accounts open without deleting since those accounts still have uu and produce kuwal (even in small amounts).

This is about promoting user interaction and giving people incentives to attack up and down, so especially giving small accounts new targets to attack upon.

Kismet wrote:This way, someone ranked #300 can attack the #3 player and get something from him/her. What would be the point then?

Why would someone risk attacking someone else hundreds and thousands of times without knowing if they will succeed at all? I dont get it.

Kismet wrote:Not only are these bold changes, they're changes being made to the basic operation of the game almost 10 months after the game has come out and we still have several areas of the game that aren't functional yet. Meaning those who have paid the kuwal for the weapons levels and the supers/regular soldiers + arming them are set back so the newer players have more of an advantage. Right now newer players can still attack other newer players and get up higher instead of sitting at rank #300+. Also people have paid real cash (euros/usd) for advances or upgrades, including on the black market which will be negated because of some of these changes. Such as spending $$ to get enough to buy more supers at 10x the cost of a regular soldier. Or buying kuwal to up the techs.

Please explain what will be negated by this change?
I hope that I cleared up all your misconceptions and that it was a problem of understanding and nothing else

by Nomad Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:05 pm

You havent for me.

Random factor of strike power in battle changed from 90-105% to 75-120% (identical average value)
- Random factor of defense power in battle remains unchanged at 90-105%

I still say this is giving the attacker a 15% advantage in overall power.

if both strike and defense are 100 mill, and both hit on the maximum side of the randomness scale then the strike will win 15% advantge over the defense.

main point, identical strike vs identical defense, the random factor is in the favor of the strike by 15% and I dont understand that.

whats the difference, or the down side to making the random factors the same?

85 to 115, then an identical strike and defense stand the exact same chance of randomness. Thats my issue with it all, the 15% advantage your giving strike.

by Sandwalker Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:11 pm

So what happens when they both hit at minimum? Considering it's an average, you have to assume he will equally strike at minimum as he will at maximum.

Notice anything when you take that into account? How about that, it evens out. Funny how math is.

by Nomad Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:28 pm

no it does not

we are talking about ='s

ok let me rephrase. The defense is 1 point higher

both at minimums = a failed attack
both at maximum = a failed attack

but with strike having a 15% overall higher random counter then that means that the strike can beat what it could not beat before

just explain why you feel strike should get 15% more in both directions and I'll try to understand better, right now I just don't

FACTS
Strike has more advantages
strike is always online during an attack
strike can reapair after each attack keeping max damage as the defense deteriorates
strike can choose to assasinate or sabb (sabbing often can not been seen nor proven who did it, sabb this turn, steal kewal next turn, can claim innocence of sabbing)

So WHY does it need an aditional 15% overall power boost?

Lets look at the overall effect of this as well, whats really going to happen?
Big boys/Big alliances will mass anyone who farms them. PERIOD.

all this is doing is adding another advantage to strike

NOW all that said, I happen to like the idea, all save not understanding why the % are not equal, but favor strike by 15%

IF the strike is smaller, it suffers smaller losses man wise so repeated attacks to get the 15% bonus may very well be worth it.

by Admin Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:41 pm

Nomad wrote:no it does not
we are talking about ='s

ok let me rephrase. The defense is 1 point higher
both at minimums = a failed attack
both at maximum = a failed attack

I get how 75% is less than 90%,
but how is 120% less than 105%?

Nomad wrote:but with strike having a 15% overall higher random counter then that means that the strike can beat what it could not beat before

Just like there's a chance that it will not be able to beat what it could beat before, see above.
Btw are you just contradicting yourself to your statement before where you said defense and strike at maximum means a failed attack?

Nomad wrote:just explain why you feel strike should get 15% more in both directions and I'll try to understand better, right now I just don't

I can't explain something that's simply not true

Nomad wrote:So WHY does it need an aditional 15% overall power boost?

How does it get a 15% BOOST? Last time I checked, the word boost means increase, we're talking about changing spread, from 90-105%, where you will be doing on average 97.5%, to 75-120% where you will be doing on average 97.5%
97.5% is an identical value to 97.5% so please show me where the 15% comes from.

Nomad wrote:85 to 115, then an identical strike and defense stand the exact same chance of randomness. Thats my issue with it all, the 15% advantage your giving strike.

Wrong, something like that would favor strike way too much.
5/30 Attacks the strike will be below 90%, the minimum defense power.
10/30 Attacks (DOUBLE THE AMOUNT) the strike will be above 105%, the maximum defense power

with 75-120% you have a 15/45 chance that you will do less than 90%, minimum def power and a 15/45 chance that you will do more than 105%, maximum def power.

Nomad wrote:NOW all that said, I happen to like the idea, all save not understanding why the % are not equal, but favor strike by 15%

Please calculate for me the average value of the following 2 data sets:
Set 1: 75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,114,115,116,117,118,119,120
Set 2: 90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105

Once you post the answer to this, please explain how the update would give the strike a 15% boost if the power spread during battle is changed from 90-105% to 75-120%

by Sandwalker Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:42 pm

@Nomad:

argh.

The random counter is both higher and smaller which means the AVERAGE remains exactly the same as it did before. EXACTLY.

You could say strike gets a kick in the nuts because a strike after the update would have to be higher than before the update to be certain the hit is successful.

Do you understand? It's not an ADVANTAGE for strike. It's a minor disadvantage if you really wanna go there.

Here:

Strike 90-105 Def 90-105 -> 10mil DEF Target

90% *STR > 105% *DEF => STR = (7/6) DEF =>

Actual strike needed to be certain of success: over 11.67mil

After update:
Strike 75-120 Def 90-105 -> 10mil DEF Target

75% *STR > 105% *DEF => STR = (7/5) DEF =>

Actual strike needed to be certain of success: over 14mil

Now do you understand? When you farm, you need to be CERTAIN you score a good hit. Otherwise, you get burned. So farmers (that use their brain) will build a strike at the upper limit, to be certain of stealing the kuwal.

Thus, it's a minor disadvantage for the striker, NOT for the defender but offers the chance for that ONE hit you brag about on the alliance forum, where you managed to steal that kuwal even though your strike was small. That's the exception, not the rule.

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