Mass-Raiding - a common sight in AW

by Kenzu Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:07 am

There have been multiple instances of mass-raiding, some against World Republic, and multiple big alliances were involved.
Namely: Imperium, Mujengan, Emperors

I bring this up to make everyone aware that mass raids are common.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to discuss this so that we can see everyone's opinions on this.

First of all, let's make clear what mass raiding is:
It is the use of hostile missions to decimate enemy defenses (usually with sabotage, an over-sab) and then repeatedly raiding to steal untrained.
The defenses destroyed can be 50 million, even 500 million, and the untrained stolen in such a mass-raid are often 100.000 or 200.000 untrained.

I would like to discuss this issue so that I know the stance of each alliance.

Thoughts on mass raiding:
I believe that players shouldn't be mass raided if the attacker is unwilling to repay all losses if the victim comes back one day.
However a player may mass raid someone, if he will provide compensation as soon as the victim starts playing again.
At the same time, there is a problem with alliances that haven't agreed to pay compensation, as there cannot be a one way guarantee.
At the same time it's obvious that there will be 3 groups of people:
Those who will never accept mass raids.
Those who accept mass raids if compensation is paid.
and those who want mass raids without any compensation involved.

We currently have this policy on mass raiding:
We treat you the way you treat us.
If you mass-raid our members, we will mass-raid your members.
If our alliances agreed on some mass-raiding rules, we will follow them.
I recommend you notify me in advance if you want to mass-raid a person so that I check how long someone has been inactive. players which were inactive for a month are unlikely to come back, but if you mass-raid player who raided loads of untrained and left them out for a day, then you basically massed an active player and will be massed back if you don't pay compensation. You wouldn't get into such trouble if you asked the guy if he is active 2 days earlier. Very Happy

A WR member has noticed that a player from Holy Cross had a lot of untrained, over 200.000 and defense and suggested raiding it.
I contacted the player and told him to train his untrained or change them into idles and also explained to him how idle units work.
The player turned out to be an active player as all of his untrained have been trained.
Show some sportmanship and tell people if they have many untrained what they should do with them. This can prevent conflicts and prevent mass-raids of actives.

Question is, what are the alliance leaders stances on this matter.
I'd like to ask each alliance:

1)is your alliance ready to pay compensation for lost untrained and damage caused if the player who has been mass raided comes back?
2)If yes, under which conditions (for example, no compensation if someone has notified the victim and the alliance leader 3 days in advance, or if someone had over 200.000 untrained)
3)Were you aware of your members doing mass-raids?
4)If you didn't know about it. What steps are you going to take?
5)If you knew about it. What steps did you take?
6)Do you think players should be allowed to do mass raids?
7)If yes, under which conditions?
8)If you supported mass raids before, why did you change your mind?

Alliance members and non-members are encouraged to contribute with their opinions too!

by Manleva Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:16 pm

Kenzu wrote:Question is, what are the alliance leaders stances on this matter.
I'd like to ask each alliance:

1)is your alliance ready to pay compensation for lost untrained and damage caused if the player who has been mass raided comes back?
2)If yes, under which conditions (for example, no compensation if someone has notified the victim and the alliance leader 3 days in advance, or if someone had over 200.000 untrained)
3)Were you aware of your members doing mass-raids?
4)If you didn't know about it. What steps are you going to take?
5)If you knew about it. What steps did you take?
6)Do you think players should be allowed to do mass raids?
7)If yes, under which conditions?
8)If you supported mass raids before, why did you change your mind?

Alliance members and non-members are encouraged to contribute with their opinions too!

I will comment as a player and not an alliance member.

Mass raids are part of the mechanics of the game therefore we are faced with two different scenarios.
1. As they are part of the game they are a risk that all players should be aware of.
2. If you are not happy with this mechanic and the majority of players agree with you then you should be approaching Admin with a proposal for it's removal.

If a player becomes inactive then there is a reason for it that is not related to the game. The game already includes a mechanism for protection of players accounts during periods of inactivity - it's called vacation mode.

From my view point accounts that become inactive and stay inactive for any extended period signify an abandoned account. As such there should be no expectation that there will be any compensation at all.

Mass raids on active players are war actions and should be treated as such. If an active player places himself in a position where he is becoming a potential target then that is his responsibility to manage. If he is in an alliance and places himself at risk then there is also some responsibility on the alliance leadership because they should be offering advice. If an active player suffers a mass raid and his alliance will not support him or her then I would recommend that they find another alliance.

As far as I am aware Sea has the highest Sea has the highest Raw UP in the game (50K after his Race with LI), without including officer contributions hes looking at 4 days of UP to reach 200K UU. There will be higher UP's when officers are considered.

There is an element of risk in the game and how much risk any player is willing to take is their decision and their responsibility. Activity by its self is not sufficient reason for someone not to be attacked.

Yes, I will agree that there should be a level of sportsmanship but it is tempered by the fact that this is a war game as well.

I note again that you bring up the issue of compensation so I need to remind you that currently for every 1 player who can give compensation 2.5 players can not.

by Nomad Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:50 pm

Well said.

A 500 mill def is chicken now. If you are truely small enough that is all you can afford then your UP would be so small it will take weeks or months to get 200,000 UU sitting out.

The truth is, if your dumb enough to have 200,000 UU sitting out with a 500mill def you deserve it.

Why does someone deserve compensation if they come back months later? or even weeks? I mean if its no longer even in your loggs (10 days) what rights does anyone have to complain? If you can not log in every 10 days then you have no right to ask for compensation.

The only way I could even remotely see it, is if there was an issue that stranded an account with large summs of UU sitting out, such as a 12 or 24 hr loss of net. You have idles for a reason, so no one can claim they were saving them for some big trade. If an account is watched and the UU count grows daily then they are tempting fate. If an account that normally has 10K or less out, suddently has 250K out, then it is the attackers decision as to act or not and deal with the conciqences.

As for alliances, thats tricky as there are only a few who can back their members properly, and TBH we dont want the entire game in just a few alliances. So do you trade individuality for protection? Do you become a member of a family you do not feel at home with? Do you give up your lonewolf lifestyle just to survive? It falls back to the leaders of alliances, and the playerbase as a whole.

by october_17 Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:13 pm

i am tending to agree i wouldnt pay someone back in that case, however i wouldnt blame them for taking action onto there own hands if that be the case

i wouldnt mass- raid anyone who i know is active, but then again why would any active player have 200k uu out? ad more so why would anyone inactive or not with little defence have anymore than 30k uu out, thats about average up right now id say for that class of members, if your not willing to train daily your asking to be raided same with kuwal some one sees it some one takes it

im thinking it should be like any other way of farming, x ammount of profit minimum

by kingkongfan1 Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:40 pm

As a player of this game, it makes me wonder why an emipre is allowing such actions, (mass-raiding, or even farming/raiding) to be perpetrated on its members BY its members. also if an ally did such, then they wouldn't be my ally for long.
Also I would need to consider whether it is a active player being hit, or a 0-defense inactive being hit, My opinion 0-defense accounts are fair game for anything because they have been abandoned, & if the owner of the account should come back, then they should accept the losses & move on cause if they did not want to be hit then the player should have vacationed the account... JMO...

by october_17 Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:00 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote: As a player of this game, it makes me wonder why an emipre is allowing such actions, (mass-raiding, or even farming/raiding) to be perpetrated on its members BY its members. also if an ally did such, then they wouldn't be my ally for long.
Also I would need to consider whether it is a active player being hit, or a 0-defense inactive being hit, My opinion 0-defense accounts are fair game for anything because they have been abandoned, & if the owner of the account should come back, then they should accept the losses & move on cause if they did not want to be hit then the player should have vacationed the account... JMO...

my thouts exactly

by kingkongfan1 Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:04 pm

I have been thinking on this some & after re-reading kenzu's origional post, have come up with a question that he did not ask, I would like some others opinions on it. here goes...

What, if any, responsibility do Alliances, (members/leaders), or Empires, (members/leaders) have in regards to members that commit mass-raiding, or for that matter, any other "war crime" so to speak?...

should Alliances/Empires have a responsibility to basically control their members, & be held accountable when an incident occurs involving any said member of an Alliance/Empire?... see example below...

An alliance has a policy strictly forbidding mass-raiding on active players,,, but they have a member that continually breaks this policy, how should the Alliance/Empire handle this member?...

by Jiro Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:05 pm

Speaking as a player, I am willing to help out anyone I massed-raided to get back into the game. Don't know about "full-compensation" though, because then you would have to assess what the damage was.

by kingkongfan1 Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:09 pm

Jiro wrote:Speaking as a player, I am willing to help out anyone I massed-raided to get back into the game. Don't know about "full-compensation" though, because then you would have to assess what the damage was.

this statement raises another question,,,

how will the above actions affect a players PTR?

by seaborgium Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:52 pm

While I have read over most of this. I will give my short answers now, and a longer possible change of answer later.

1. As a player, its a game. A person has options, a) idles, b) vacation mode, c) protection. If you left them out deal with it, its a game. If you don't like it then do something about it.

2. As TM leader, We have very simple rules, as what we deem as hostile acts and they are easily found. If a member does the action, they have to deal with the consequences of the crime. If the crime is against a member of TM, then the person who committed the act will deal with the punishment that TM deals them. So in short, Do the crime pay the time. As leader I not going to stop others from enjoying the game, we only put small limits to it as to protect the interest of the group.

I guess I could answer Kenzu questions:
1. As our rules say, if past 3 days we don't do anything. If under 3 days, its up to the person who did the crime to pay or not. As they are the ones that have to deal with the consequences.
2. NO, as an allinace we won't pay for 1 persons actions.
3. I know that people do them
4. None, as they have to deal with it.
5. Same as # 4.
6. They should be able to do what they want as long as they deal with the backlash.
7. n/a
8. I haven't same thing I said before.

by curumo Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:11 pm

Kenzu wrote:
1)is your alliance ready to pay compensation for lost untrained and damage caused if the player who has been mass raided comes back?
2)If yes, under which conditions (for example, no compensation if someone has notified the victim and the alliance leader 3 days in advance, or if someone had over 200.000 untrained)
3)Were you aware of your members doing mass-raids?
4)If you didn't know about it. What steps are you going to take?
5)If you knew about it. What steps did you take?
6)Do you think players should be allowed to do mass raids?
7)If yes, under which conditions?
8)If you supported mass raids before, why did you change your mind?

I will answer these questions as well both as a player and a member of TIE.

1.) No, why? He left, his fault. He should have used vacation mode. Period. I would however offer support and tips if said person does come back.
2.) N/a
3.) Yes, me included.
4.) N/a
5.) Perhaps talk to members - see the losses, try to improve their approach (i.e. minimalize losses, maximize gains)
6.) Yes
7.) No allies, no friends, no stupid hits (i.e. massing a 5 b defense for 500 k uu out or something that really doesn't pay off)
8.) I didn't

Also if a member completely ignores mass raiding policies for longer periods of time (ignoring advice, requests and orders from higher ups) then I have a question: What's he doing in said alliance anyway? :/

Hope that answers your questions Smile

If you have any please feel free to ask.

by J1nx Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:54 pm

this whole business of compensating hits is retarded

newsflash.... the reason why this game doesnt have many active players is bcuz u cant fart without having to compensate someone for it

if someone has the initiative to plan a bold action to further their account within the parameters of the game that is called a strategy... if its a successful strategy then a 'well done' should be in order

if u dont like their strategy then employ a strategy of ur own to nullify it

every action has a reaction... dont restrict the actions or the reactions...

by Steveanaya Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:58 pm

I swear kenzu still has spies in TIE.

Mass-raids should be ALWAYS allowed.
It's their fault for not being active or training their UU.

NO compensation should ever be given either.

by Special Agent 47 Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:35 pm

Steveanaya wrote:I swear kenzu still has spies in TIE.

Mass-raids should be ALWAYS allowed.
It's their fault for not being active or training their UU.

NO compensation should ever be given either.

Mass raid that results in acceptable profit.

The statement you made is incorrect. Otherwise you are saying anyone could mass-raid you at a loss and your OK with it. Other then That I agree.

by curumo Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:38 pm

I'm sure this is what Steve was saying Wink

by Special Agent 47 Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:42 pm

I am too. I have just learned that people will often try to argue exacts, and bypass common sense when trying to make a point is all.

by curumo Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:40 pm

Good point.

by Lord Ishurue Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:42 pm

For one thing. The term is Called "Mass & Raids" ( Mass the defense & raid ) .

Mujengan started doing them back when we were Hachigan .
We invited other members of other alliances to join in with us.

To me they are the normal thing to do .

Now Mass & Raids are terrible. The old days you only needed to do like 15 or so assaults.
Now only your best covert or assassin guys can do them .

Mass & Raids was a good exercise in learning to coordinate attacks .

by Steveanaya Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:29 am

Actually Ish I think I may have to agree with you 100%.

Mass raids used to be very easy to do. Now, I hardly ever do any(even though I have TIE's most advanced covert techs).

One cannot forget the immense ST cost of it all.
I personally have not been able to do a mass raid(or however you call it) due to ST restriction.

Why would someone waste their ST's sabbing down an account when they could just farm and raid. People only get 96 ST's daily(more if overtime/relaxed) so I don't see how someone could have excess ST's to do it.

I think one has to look at both sides of the story -including myself.

by Nomad Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:47 pm

Steveanaya wrote:Actually Ish I think I may have to agree with you 100%.

Mass raids used to be very easy to do. Now, I hardly ever do any(even though I have TIE's most advanced covert techs).

One cannot forget the immense ST cost of it all.
I personally have not been able to do a mass raid(or however you call it) due to ST restriction.

Why would someone waste their ST's sabbing down an account when they could just farm and raid. People only get 96 ST's daily(more if overtime/relaxed) so I don't see how someone could have excess ST's to do it.

I think one has to look at both sides of the story -including myself.

If there is enough UU sitting out, the increased amount of UU per hit often outweigh the ST cost versus hitting a 0def inactive.

by FarleShadow Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:27 pm

Steveanaya wrote:People only get 96 ST's daily(more if overtime/relaxed)

You get more ST if you're in Overtime/relaxed?

wtf. really?

by seaborgium Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:45 pm

Allows you to increase or decrease the working hours of your income units
Setting on Overtime increases your personal income by 20%, gives you 1 extra Supply turn every 30 minutes and decreases your Motivation by 20 every turn
Setting on Relaxed decreases your personal income by 30% and increases your Motivation by 15 every turn
Very useful to turn on Relaxed during the night so that you get farmed less by other players
And then to turn on Overtime during the day when you are online to recover some of the income and increase your growth

by Steveanaya Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:10 pm

Nomad wrote:
Steveanaya wrote:Actually Ish I think I may have to agree with you 100%.

Mass raids used to be very easy to do. Now, I hardly ever do any(even though I have TIE's most advanced covert techs).

One cannot forget the immense ST cost of it all.
I personally have not been able to do a mass raid(or however you call it) due to ST restriction.

Why would someone waste their ST's sabbing down an account when they could just farm and raid. People only get 96 ST's daily(more if overtime/relaxed) so I don't see how someone could have excess ST's to do it.

I think one has to look at both sides of the story -including myself.

If there is enough UU sitting out, the increased amount of UU per hit often outweigh the ST cost versus hitting a 0def inactive.

Prove it to me:) on average I farm for 400mil a d buy AT's for 30mil x 10. That means I get 100mil profit per hit/ 2 ST's= 50mil. That's about the value of each ST. So 50mil x 10(for every sab) =500mil kuwal wasted[(theoretically of course) (and thats excluding all costs from lost spies)] I'm not sure about the average amount of hits it takes to sab down an account but if you oversab it would take about 10 sabs, the equivalent of 5bil kuwal you could've had(so let's just call this losses.) When over sabbing, I'm guessing people usually send groups of 100k. So let's see: 100,000 x 0.5 = 5,000 x 10= 50,000. So 50,000 spies lost plus the 5bil kuwals worth of ST's. 50,000 x 225,000(cost of spies) =11,250,000,000 losses.

Sooo just a recap, 16,250,000,000 kuwal "losses" In a mass raid

16.25bil / 180k(cost of UU) =90,257 so 90k

This meaning you would have to find AT LEAST 90k FREE UU. What I mean by free is profit!

Ex. UU cost is 150,000
AT cost is 3mil
Minimum UU stolen is 2k just to come out even.

Inactive-0 def- has 150k UU out in the open

The raider starts raiding and gets 2.5k on average for 20 hits. Meaning 500 UU were "free" or profit:) 500x 20 =10,000 UU profit soooo

The target would have to have A LOT more than 200k to be eligible to be mass raided.

My head hurts now from all the math(almost spelled meth there lol)
So your assignment is to find flaws in my mathematical reasoning and hopefully we can make a mass raiding calculator on sea's site:D

Thanks

by Nomad Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:31 pm

Your ideals are close to what I agree with.

Now lets say someone has 500K to 1 mill sitting out. Is that worth it?

You also have to understand the want or need for W.E.

The "breaker" doesnt mind the losses, and wants the W.E. then another simply moves in for the profit. Mass raids are generally not a 1 man show.

by FarleShadow Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:25 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Allows you to increase or decrease the working hours of your income units
Setting on Overtime increases your personal income by 20%, gives you 1 extra Supply turn every 30 minutes and decreases your Motivation by 20 every turn
Setting on Relaxed decreases your personal income by 30% and increases your Motivation by 15 every turn
Very useful to turn on Relaxed during the night so that you get farmed less by other players
And then to turn on Overtime during the day when you are online to recover some of the income and increase your growth

Hmm. I only saw the part in bold when I first read that. Interesting.

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