The Dark Crusade

The Valhallan 597th stands down, and will wait in the presence of the Emperor until her enemies can be mauled and vanquished once more.

Congrats WR. Glad to see you came to your senses. Something tells me that one day, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. Good step.

Universe wrote:The Valhallan 597th stands down, and will wait in the presence of the Emperor until her enemies can be mauled and vanquished once more.

Congrats WR. Glad to see you came to your senses. Something tells me that one day, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. Good step.

In absolutely all respect for this treaty/ceasefire I would like to ask you, universe, one thing. You said "..one day, you'll be a force to be reckoned with."

Don't you think that if weren't a "Force to be reckoned with" in the first place, that Ian would have come to peace so easily/quickly? The way I see it, if we were as weak as some had said, Ian and TIE wouldn't have stopped attacking, and this treaty, in turn, would have never been made.

Then again, I might just be feeling a little critical today

I'll chalk it up to you being critical today myself. We never had any issues with WR other then their silence and lack of any sign of leadership or diplomacy other then Kenzu.

Facts are without GD doing all the work the first war would have been as much a disaster as this one was. I mean WR managed to take down 1 TIE account, and it was one of the lowest in the alliance.

But no sense it dredging it back up is there? Lets all live and learn and hopefully make better decisions next time we are in any situations similar to this one.

Osyndicate wrote:In absolutely all respect for this treaty/ceasefire I would like to ask you, universe, one thing. You said "..one day, you'll be a force to be reckoned with."

Don't you think that if weren't a "Force to be reckoned with" in the first place, that Ian would have come to peace so easily/quickly? The way I see it, if we were as weak as some had said, Ian and TIE wouldn't have stopped attacking, and this treaty, in turn, would have never been made.

Then again, I might just be feeling a little critical today

With equally as much respect..
rofl

Osyndicate wrote:

Universe wrote:The Valhallan 597th stands down, and will wait in the presence of the Emperor until her enemies can be mauled and vanquished once more.

Congrats WR. Glad to see you came to your senses. Something tells me that one day, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. Good step.

In absolutely all respect for this treaty/ceasefire I would like to ask you, universe, one thing. You said "..one day, you'll be a force to be reckoned with."

Don't you think that if weren't a "Force to be reckoned with" in the first place, that Ian would have come to peace so easily/quickly? The way I see it, if we were as weak as some had said, Ian and TIE wouldn't have stopped attacking, and this treaty, in turn, would have never been made.

Then again, I might just be feeling a little critical today

LOL. For the record - World Republic managed to take down 1 - thats one - account in this entire war. By comparison go and visit the starting post on this thread and see how many accounts The Imperium Empire took down - or the overall damage inflicted on World Republic vs. The Imperium Empire.

Your mere statement that "T.I.E and Ian wouldn't have stopped attacking" makes me sad because it implies your ignorance about what T.I.E is . You and many others still fail to grasp exactly what The Imperium Empire stands for. We aren't the bullying alliance, we aren't an aggressive alliance. We have never massed anyone other than World Republic players & those who have supported/ support Kenzu. Why were these players massed? Due to the various reasons outlined in this thread. No other alliance has been hurt or touched in anyway - why? Because they ve never provoked or given us reason to be hostile to them - thus we haven't been.

In 2 words though why we accepted the surrender of World Republic on such "nice" terms? Compassion & Mercy. Plus all the points we set out to achieve at the start of this war were achieved. We are *not* the nasty war-mongers some people believe... the fact peace now exists is a testiment to that fact. So in final answer to your question: World Republic's limited resistance to us had absolutely zeroing impact on when the peace was achieved - we d have accepted peace on the above terms regardless of how "easy" the war was.

The war ended because we didn't think it would be fair to continue it since Kenzu had offerred acceptable terms - to have continued it after that would have been warmongering and outright bullying. Our objectives were achieved - so why continue war? Why continue destroying mainly-innocent player's accounts and setting them back?

War, in this case, was a means to achieving our goal.
Goal achieved, war finished. Resistance is futile.

Peace being made easy is the bit that gets me. Peace was on the table for a majority of the war. TIE offered WR a way out and they were able to take it at any point. The very hour that WR accepted that way out the war ended. If lets say the goal was met after TIE massed 1 account or if it was met after TIE massed 15 accounts we planned to stop as soon as kenzu stepped down. We left the decision fully up to WR when they would accept peace. So you could say that we came to peace pretty easy but keep in mind that we made it nice and easy for WR to end the war whenever you wanted.

Heck even I voted for peace!!! Now thats rare - ask Vesper

We are all just nice guys at heart i guess - no need for further discussion, and specially no need for needling each other

Topic closed

Vesper your post was seriously the precise definition of trashtalk with which you dropped to about 2 levels below the behavior that ian criticized about kenzu.

Spoiler:

There's peace, arguing about the who's/what's/if's/else's/then's will just get more people annoyed

Special Agent 47 wrote:
But no sense it dredging it back up is there? Lets all live and learn and hopefully make better decisions next time we are in any situations similar to this one.

That said, I will be locking this once 24 hours have passed without anyone posting in this thread.

When i say peace was on the table, it was a mutual ground met by the 2 parties. I discussed it with BOTH diplomats for WR and both agreed on behalf of WR that it was the best solution for kenzu to simply step down. When i say mutual ground i mean, a majority of TIE wanted kenzu exiled from WR indefinitely, WR wanted Kenzu to remain as leader. The agreement was kenzu steps down as the leader but remains in WR and eventually can reclaim leadership.

We elect leaders and diplomats to make more educated decisions then the group of people the represent. In a real world war a majority of people will rather have nothing to do with a war in most cases because they are not sure as the reasons for it and negotiations that occur. I had private conversations with members of WR about treaties and agreements. I kept them private for a reason. The people i spoke to are the ones that would ultimately make the decision on WRs future.

Leaders and High Command members in an alliance are the ones that ultimately make the decisions for the alliance. Even if a majority of the alliance want something else the HC can still go the total opposite direction if they feel it is what is best. Just like parents will stop their kids from eating glue even if the kids desperately want it the parents have more experience and know that its a bad idea.

Vesper wrote:The agreement was kenzu steps down as the leader but remains in WR and eventually can reclaim leadership.

I really must have missed out this part being offered to WR in those countless posts during and leading up to the war (I admit I didn't read all of them cos it was really way too much hot air being thrown around).
Any chance you could link me up?

At no point was it a demand that kenzu permanently removes himself as a leader...

TIE would never hold a permanent punishment on anyone. As soon as kenzu came to us asking what we wanted him to do we set the guidelines and decided 3 months time to step down...

If you really are that curious i can pull a couple quotes from TIE forums regarding kenzu and the war. You may be surprised.

Vesper wrote:At no point was it a demand that kenzu permanently removes himself as a leader...

My point still stands that I failed to notice this part of the demands (or rather lack of) repeatedly in the forum posts.
I dont have the chat logs between all of you with kenzu, but I am somehow thinking I would find nothing that would stress that (rather important) fact.

Vesper wrote:If you really are that curious i can pull a couple quotes from TIE forums regarding kenzu and the war. You may be surprised.

No need to, I always knew (pretty accurately) what you guys really wanted.
However I'm hoping eventually you'll see through these posts, that TIE repeatedly (un)intentionally miscommunicated their demands, just as much as Kenzu was unable to grasp the true nature of these demands on his own, in order for both sides to be able to successfully negotiate the current agreement.


Bottom line:
Communication is a two way process.
When talking to others, dont just look at the words you say but look at how they might be misunderstood. IMO this war is a perfect example of it XD
If the other side gets the wrong impression of your message, it will affect the kind of messages you will receive in return.

We had a set of goals to achieve (we can all agree on that as there nothing to argue with)

We observed the situation ( The war didnt start overnight there was a large lead up - agreed? )

We decided on a course of action ( we dont have to justify it although many of us tried to. Again weather you believed our reasons is irrelevant - The fact that we chose a method can not be argued )

We executed our solution to our problem ( again there should be no confusion here as the last 10 pages are a testament to it )

We got a part of what we wanted ( Not ALL of our individual demands were met within the TIE High Command but we settled on a unified compromise between us and a peace treaty was offered and accepted. Nothing to argue against there either)

So we were at A and wanted to get to B - and we did that so as far as we are concerned we won. If all WR wanted was to get from A(war) to B(peace) then they also won. Our targets were not the same but just coz one side achieved their goals doesn't mean the other side also didnt. You can't assign values to the targets as their targets are irrelevant to us and vice-verse

There was no unintentional actions - all actions are a reaction to something that preceded it. Your arguments are irrelevant - the end result is all that matters the route taken serves no other purpose than as an example to guide our actions next time and a history lesson for the curious.

Thank you for confirming what I said and that we share the same opinion

my pleasure

Admin wrote:

Bottom line:
Communication is a two way process.
When talking to others, dont just look at the words you say but look at how they might be misunderstood. IMO this war is a perfect example of it XD
If the other side gets the wrong impression of your message, it will affect the kind of messages you will receive in return.

I hope you stress that to Kenzu as well since it was him starting shit needlessly over and over that got us where we were. FTR Kenzu was told many, many times to just STHU but never listened till TDC.

As pointed out already, we all got some of what we wanted, and we all didnt get some of what we wanted. For me I think the best part was a more active WR and hopefully a more rounded leadership. (That is not a stabb at Kenzu, I do honestly feel alliance leadership should be done by a group, not just 1 or 2 people). I think WR will come out of this much stronger. I know we have.

Special Agent 47 wrote:I hope you stress that to Kenzu as well since it was him starting shit needlessly over and over that got us where we were. FTR Kenzu was told many, many times to just STHU but never listened till TDC.

More often than you think

edit: About the second part, I stick with my version. There was one person who sucked at listening and understanding and another who sucked at explaining and talking

Wow, Kenzu must fuss alot...

Admin wrote:

Special Agent 47 wrote:I hope you stress that to Kenzu as well since it was him starting shit needlessly over and over that got us where we were. FTR Kenzu was told many, many times to just STHU but never listened till TDC.

More often than you think

edit: About the second part, I stick with my version. There was one person who sucked at listening and understanding and another who sucked at explaining and talking

And I stick with mine that if Kenzu would have stopped intentionally causing conflict, STHU, and kept his knives out of peoples backs then none of this would have happened. You address the problem after its creation, I address it before its creation.

point is, all is equal now. Clean slates. Time to pick up and move on and for us all to learn something. Continuing to hash this out may result in unintentional tensions so I'll move along now that I feel I have spoke my piece.

@ Admin: For the record, i had absolutely zero problem with The Imperium Empire flexing its muscles and testing its combat abilities. Its better to test these on World Republic than when more formidable enemies try to topple The Imperium.

If World Republic failed to fully understand our demands and this then caused the war to continue on further than necessary... then its not bad at all as far as I m concerned - infact its to be welcomed. The war cost The Imperium Empire less than 3 days worth of resources overall - at the cost of over a months worth of resources for World Republic.

That means a alliance which was at the time hostile to us - has been set back by a month... further eroding its strategic position compared to The Imperium Empire's in the long run. Everyday more WR was set back compared to T.I.E - is a day more in which T.I.E's lead over WR is further enhanced (on top of our normal "extra" growth which T.I.E enjoys due to a superior economy).

The point is World Republic was never fully pushed into a corner - we made our intentions and demands available to them - offerring them a way out. At the same time though - for World Republic to have given up on day 1 of the crusade would have been damaging for T.I.E's own requirements - the war gave us some much needed war experience, a chance to test our abilities (and highlight failures) and a chance which we utilised massively to strategically set back one of the main alliances on Aderan Wars vs. T.I.E.

In a nut shell then: We wanted to give WR a way out... but it definately didn't harm our objectives to have them unnecessarily fight it out with T.I.E for a bit longer than they needed. That was actually one of our/ my objectives - to prolong the slaughter without actually being unfair... which was achieved due to WR not properly reading our demands - or at least failing to ask for clarification. If World Republic had surrenderred on Day one... the gap between T.I.E and World Republic would have been smaller than what it was when they surrendered. The fact they didn't.... well its good news for T.I.E - bad news for everyone else

World Republic lacks many things... but its definately not lacking in stubborness - a trait which cost them heavily in The Dark Crusade... but which is also an admirable trait (even if in the circumstances it fullfilled World Republic's part in their enemies grand design/ master plan). If World Republic can build the economy and military capabilities to match their stubbornness... then they shall go far. They at the very least put up a spirited resistance for which they ve won my respect

My point still stands that it was a combination of his inability to "get it" and to "know better in the first place" that started this and TIE diplomats inability to adjust their explanation methods to the targeted audience to be able to make him "get it" being both a result of his behavior as well as a cause for his further behavior.



edit: well yeh I figured you had a hand in not doing an effort (or at least not too much of it) to make them get it, but now that you say it yourself, I know that my judgment of you remains as correct as ever.

TIE didnt even assign a diplomate until the last few days of TDC LOL

Secondly, it is not our job to "hunt" some unusual methods of communicating with someone when straight forward dialogue fails. TIE was stronger by far, so why would we be the ones hunting alternative means of communications?

*Wonders why my begging for another voice from WR for weeks is not even noticed*

Recon that was TIE trying to do just what you claim we didn't do?

Special Agent 47 wrote:Secondly, it is not our job to "hunt" some unusual methods of communicating with someone when straight forward dialogue fails. TIE was stronger by far, so why would we be the ones hunting alternative means of communications?

It's no ones job. Everyone does as they please.

It is obvious now that parts of your communications were intentionally left vague as ian has confirmed

WR not asking the right questions but instead doing what they did, was advantageous to TIE.
And TIE not doing the nonexistent extra effort in clearing up WR's misconceptions was also advantageous to TIE
nuff said

Well when i took over as diplomat i spoke to G and Kismet and both of them knew 100% that TIE wanted kenzu to step down as leader. They also knew that the war would end when he stepped down. I was assuming that Kenzu was told information by them.

I did speak to kenzu once about it but he thought i was joking when i said he would need to step down as leader for the war to stop and laughed at the idea. So when the terms of peace were being viewed as a joke by kenzu i didnt bother to explain to him. I probably should have tried to be more serious. But when you get laughed at when saying the terms of a treaty its highly disrespectful.