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Log inGalactic Market + Trading Discussion
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Special Agent 47
kingkongfan1
Keinutnai
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Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:22 am
I took the liberty of moving this conversation out of the Mujengan-World Republic war thread.
We cannot continue the discussion until it's clear how the markets work.
There are 2 separate markets: Trade Center and Galactic Market
This is how they work:
Trade Center:
Trade Center has massive number of resources in all 3 types: kuwal, UU and AT
Whenever you buy one resource and sell some other resources, you are practically buying X% of the market in one resource type and selling same percentage (X%) of the market in another resource.\
(but you also pay small fee for each trade, worth 3.5% of the value)
People buy resources they consider cheap, and sell resources they consider expensive.
If they think AT is cheap, they will sell UU and kuwal to buy more AT. As they buy more AT, there is less AT in the trade center and the AT become more expensive.
Trade Center prices move towards market price, albeit very slowly, because the resources in the trade center are MASSIVE!
1 Package barely makes a difference.
Model Example (we assume you buy 150 AT and sell 150 AT per package):
If the trade center has:
150,000, AT
53,100,000 UU and
21,801,254,550,000 kuwal
UU price = 410,570
Let's sell 1 package of UU to get kuwal.
Kuwal Untrained Units Turns
[ 21,801,254,550 / 21,074,546,065 ] [ 53,100 / 51,330 ] [ 150 / 145 ]
+21,074,546,065 kuwal
-53,100 UU
Result:
150,000, AT
53,153,100 UU and
21,780,180,003,935 kuwal
New UU price: 409,763
UU price decreased by 807 kuwal.
In reality Trade Center has much more resources than that, thus prices change slower. Also since players are limited by market trades, they cannot trade as much as they like. That's why prices move towards market prices only very slowly.
Galactic Market:
Galactic Market can be easily understood with basic Economics and the laws of supply and demand. "The unit price for a particular good will vary until it settles at a point where the quantity demanded by consumers (at current price) will equal the quantity supplied by producers (at current price), resulting in an economic equilibrium of price and quantity."
On the galactic market, the prices are commanded by the invisible market forces. The offered prices are the market prices/real prices, as they are based on how much players are willing to pay for a certain resource in terms of another resource. A demand higher than supply will force the prices to surge, which will cause more people to stop buying it and more people to sell it (and vice versa).
Galactic Market allows as much trading as you want, as their are no restrictions on the quantity you can place on the market. It is only limited by the resources that other players placed on the market or want to trade with you.
Admin doesn't do anything with the trade center, nor with the galactic market. All changes in the prices are caused by players themselves by trading.
The prices on the Galactic Market resemble market prices, while Trade Center prices are only sluggishly moving towards market prices. That's why the 7 day average prices you can see on the galactic market are closer to real prices than trade center prices. That's why it is incorrect to say that galactic market prices are too high and claim that trade center prices are all right.
"to answer your question above, 1) the prices are too high. the 7 day average is...
1 Untrained = 365,427 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 191,408,204 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 510 Untrained"
I assume you mean UU and AT is too expensive in terms of kuwal.
If that is true, then why don't you sell your UU and AT?
If UU and AT is expensive then it would be a good idea to sell them.
But if you do not want to sell them, then this might be a hint that actually UU and AT prices are too low. If I wanted to buy your UU and AT, how much kuwal would you want for me per UU and per AT?
And now try to imagine this. Imagine that all players would behave like you. What would the price of UU and AT be on the galactic market? You can answer it yourself.
Just think of the lowest price at which you would agree to sell some of your UU and AT. And think about the highest price you are willing to pay for UU and AT.
You said you would never want to sell your UU and AT, but I believe if someone offered you 1,000,000 kuwal per UU, you would take it! And if they offered 1,000,000,000 kuwal per AT, would you not take it as well?
Why farm some guy for 4 billion if you can sell 10 AT for 10 billion, right?
Think about it, and then you might not think anymore that the prices on the galactic market are unreasonable.
I am 100% sure that the galactic market offers resources cheaper than what you would offer them for.
You would not sell your UU for 369,000 kuwal and AT for 240,000,000, but the galactic market does.
=> Please answer this part. I would like to know what prices you would be buying and selling at.
"You should know that wars push the prices of UU and AT down, as it's usually kuwal that restraints players from being more deadly in wars. Players usually have enough AT and UU of their own.
Interesting that you say this, I have been playing AW for nigh on 3 years now & this is not what I have seen, but your defination of "pushing the prices down" might be different than mine. Or maybe I should pay more attention to the GM. to be honest I would suggest getting rid of the GM also, but I know that would never happen. too many players like playing Aderan wall street around here."
And I am one of them. You probably didn't notice the change, because you don't trade much. I am on the GM every day.
admin has already stated he has set the price to automatically inflate on a regular/semi-regular basis.
about the part in red above, I cannot find the particular post/thread, but I do remember the convo cause I thought the idea of having inflation in a game that artificially increased over time(the cost of resources is not player driven) so that the cost of all resources increased over time was a really bad idea then, & I still do. otherwise why is my ptr the way it is? "because all resources cost more today than they did 2-3 years ago when they were first gotten". Why?... because of this artificial inflation, to get my ptr back into the "safe" area I need to give away 2-3 times the amount of resources that was put on this account before I purchased it. if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it.
This sounds like an error in communication.
It was me who was mentioning inflation before. I never saw anyone talk about inflation except me. Inflation harms the game, especially hyperinflation. What admin has done was implement changes which fight inflation, ie. prevent inflation from happening/slow it down. Examples include: Supply Turns, Administrative Efficiency and exponentially growing UP technology prices. They all slow down the growth of players, which is exponential itself.
The value of all resources decreases over time (but AT and gold keep their value, they are inflation resistant)
The PTR is in red, because you received a lot of resources, if PTR was showing back then it would have been real bad already at that time. The reason why it's still red is either because it was simply so big that even after 2 years of visible PTR it didn't improve enough (percentage wise), and if it is now worse than before, it's because your account has grown slower than the inflation of the resources you received (this can be especially true if you didn't invest the resources you got into growth, but instead used it on technology, which does not generate revenue).
It's similar like taking a loan. Take massive loan and invest it, and if you use the loan wisely and make enough profit, you can repay the loan and be better than before. But if you take a massive loan, and spend it on a painting that you cannot sell, then even if you work hard, your loan might get bigger and bigger. I dont think the latter is your case.
Actually you have to pay back a multiple in kuwal or UU to repay the PTR debt, but if you repay it in AT, it will still be the same number of AT like 3 years ago, because AT don't lose value.
"if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it."
That doesn't make any sense!
If a beer costed 2 cents 100 years ago, there is no reason why it should cost 2 cents now. 2 cents 100 years ago were worth much more than they are worth now. 100 years ago salaries and income were much smaller. Same with Aderan Wars, 3 years ago, incomes were much smaller, and farming hits yielded much less kuwal too.
kingkongfan1 wrote:Keinutnai wrote:kingkongfan1 wrote:fivel wrote:actualy the price of the uu should of past this point by now, but cause the game is almost dead it will probably never get to that pointkingkongfan1 wrote:Keinutnai wrote:
One day UU will be expensive enough for MLRS to be more efficient than MA.
after this, I'll stop as I do not wish to spam this thread.
If it reaches that point, I will be extremely saddened as it means that someone has manipulated the market more than it is being manipulated now.
i just hope you now know what is this "MLRS is not effective" all about
yes, I did get that, & thank you for helping me to understand. I do not understand why you say that the price of UU should be at or above 600,000 kuwal by now, admin has already stated he has set the price to automatically inflate on a regular/semi-regular basis. this is pointless & only helpful to those who enjoy "playing the market" imo. also I know for a fact that the prices on the GM are artificially inflated by a certain number of players who get their thrills "running the market". I personally have not used the market to purchase anything in probably 2 years because the prices are too high, & only use it to sell if I am desperate. If the market were left alone, I think that you would find that the prices would be much lower. maybe there is something I am missing, or do not understand Idk.
When has he ever said such thing? He doesn't influence the galactic market at all. All prices are based on player bids alone. If you are unhappy with the prices, why don't you place your own bids?
to answer your question above, 1) the prices are too high. the 7 day average is...
1 Untrained = 365,427 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 191,408,204 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 510 Untrained
the actual prices atm are...
Buy 368,423 Untrained for your 140,000,371,577 Kuwal
[RATE: 1:379,999]
Buy 3,696 Turns for your 887,040,000,000 Kuwal
[RATE: 1:240,000,000]
Buy 2,940 Turns for your 2,049,180 Untrained
[RATE: 1:697]
2) what exactly do you want me to put a bid on? I already stated that I will not pay the artificially inflated prices of the items on the market. & there is "NOTHING" I want to sell. so please tell me what am I supposed to put a bid on.
It would be good for everyone if the gaps between buying and selling were smaller. The more people trade, the smaller gaps there will be (Active trading with bids being added).
You think UU prices are too high/too low?
I think I said too high, pretty sure I said too high.
What price do you think should UU and AT be at?
I do not know "what" the price should be set at. but I can guarantee if the GM were not being artificially manipulated to cause the prices to be as high as they are now, the prices would be much lower.
You should know that wars push the prices of UU and AT down, as it's usually kuwal that restraints players from being more deadly in wars. Players usually have enough AT and UU of their own.
Interesting that you say this, I have been playing AW for nigh on 3 years now & this is not what I have seen, but your defination of "pushing the prices down" might be different than mine. Or maybe I should pay more attention to the GM. to be honest I would suggest getting rid of the GM also, but I know that would never happen. too many players like playing Aderan wall street around here.
about the part in red above, I cannot find the particular post/thread, but I do remember the convo cause I thought the idea of having inflation in a game that artificially increased over time(the cost of resources is not player driven) so that the cost of all resources increased over time was a really bad idea then, & I still do. otherwise why is my ptr the way it is? "because all resources cost more today than they did 2-3 years ago when they were first gotten". Why?... because of this artificial inflation, to get my ptr back into the "safe" area I need to give away 2-3 times the amount of resources that was put on this account before I purchased it. if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it.
We cannot continue the discussion until it's clear how the markets work.
There are 2 separate markets: Trade Center and Galactic Market
This is how they work:
Trade Center:
Trade Center has massive number of resources in all 3 types: kuwal, UU and AT
Whenever you buy one resource and sell some other resources, you are practically buying X% of the market in one resource type and selling same percentage (X%) of the market in another resource.\
(but you also pay small fee for each trade, worth 3.5% of the value)
People buy resources they consider cheap, and sell resources they consider expensive.
If they think AT is cheap, they will sell UU and kuwal to buy more AT. As they buy more AT, there is less AT in the trade center and the AT become more expensive.
Trade Center prices move towards market price, albeit very slowly, because the resources in the trade center are MASSIVE!
1 Package barely makes a difference.
Model Example (we assume you buy 150 AT and sell 150 AT per package):
If the trade center has:
150,000, AT
53,100,000 UU and
21,801,254,550,000 kuwal
UU price = 410,570
Let's sell 1 package of UU to get kuwal.
Kuwal Untrained Units Turns
[ 21,801,254,550 / 21,074,546,065 ] [ 53,100 / 51,330 ] [ 150 / 145 ]
+21,074,546,065 kuwal
-53,100 UU
Result:
150,000, AT
53,153,100 UU and
21,780,180,003,935 kuwal
New UU price: 409,763
UU price decreased by 807 kuwal.
In reality Trade Center has much more resources than that, thus prices change slower. Also since players are limited by market trades, they cannot trade as much as they like. That's why prices move towards market prices only very slowly.
Galactic Market:
Galactic Market can be easily understood with basic Economics and the laws of supply and demand. "The unit price for a particular good will vary until it settles at a point where the quantity demanded by consumers (at current price) will equal the quantity supplied by producers (at current price), resulting in an economic equilibrium of price and quantity."
On the galactic market, the prices are commanded by the invisible market forces. The offered prices are the market prices/real prices, as they are based on how much players are willing to pay for a certain resource in terms of another resource. A demand higher than supply will force the prices to surge, which will cause more people to stop buying it and more people to sell it (and vice versa).
Galactic Market allows as much trading as you want, as their are no restrictions on the quantity you can place on the market. It is only limited by the resources that other players placed on the market or want to trade with you.
Admin doesn't do anything with the trade center, nor with the galactic market. All changes in the prices are caused by players themselves by trading.
The prices on the Galactic Market resemble market prices, while Trade Center prices are only sluggishly moving towards market prices. That's why the 7 day average prices you can see on the galactic market are closer to real prices than trade center prices. That's why it is incorrect to say that galactic market prices are too high and claim that trade center prices are all right.
"to answer your question above, 1) the prices are too high. the 7 day average is...
1 Untrained = 365,427 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 191,408,204 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 510 Untrained"
I assume you mean UU and AT is too expensive in terms of kuwal.
If that is true, then why don't you sell your UU and AT?
If UU and AT is expensive then it would be a good idea to sell them.
But if you do not want to sell them, then this might be a hint that actually UU and AT prices are too low. If I wanted to buy your UU and AT, how much kuwal would you want for me per UU and per AT?
And now try to imagine this. Imagine that all players would behave like you. What would the price of UU and AT be on the galactic market? You can answer it yourself.
Just think of the lowest price at which you would agree to sell some of your UU and AT. And think about the highest price you are willing to pay for UU and AT.
You said you would never want to sell your UU and AT, but I believe if someone offered you 1,000,000 kuwal per UU, you would take it! And if they offered 1,000,000,000 kuwal per AT, would you not take it as well?
Why farm some guy for 4 billion if you can sell 10 AT for 10 billion, right?
Think about it, and then you might not think anymore that the prices on the galactic market are unreasonable.
I am 100% sure that the galactic market offers resources cheaper than what you would offer them for.
You would not sell your UU for 369,000 kuwal and AT for 240,000,000, but the galactic market does.
=> Please answer this part. I would like to know what prices you would be buying and selling at.
"You should know that wars push the prices of UU and AT down, as it's usually kuwal that restraints players from being more deadly in wars. Players usually have enough AT and UU of their own.
Interesting that you say this, I have been playing AW for nigh on 3 years now & this is not what I have seen, but your defination of "pushing the prices down" might be different than mine. Or maybe I should pay more attention to the GM. to be honest I would suggest getting rid of the GM also, but I know that would never happen. too many players like playing Aderan wall street around here."
And I am one of them. You probably didn't notice the change, because you don't trade much. I am on the GM every day.
admin has already stated he has set the price to automatically inflate on a regular/semi-regular basis.
about the part in red above, I cannot find the particular post/thread, but I do remember the convo cause I thought the idea of having inflation in a game that artificially increased over time(the cost of resources is not player driven) so that the cost of all resources increased over time was a really bad idea then, & I still do. otherwise why is my ptr the way it is? "because all resources cost more today than they did 2-3 years ago when they were first gotten". Why?... because of this artificial inflation, to get my ptr back into the "safe" area I need to give away 2-3 times the amount of resources that was put on this account before I purchased it. if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it.
This sounds like an error in communication.
It was me who was mentioning inflation before. I never saw anyone talk about inflation except me. Inflation harms the game, especially hyperinflation. What admin has done was implement changes which fight inflation, ie. prevent inflation from happening/slow it down. Examples include: Supply Turns, Administrative Efficiency and exponentially growing UP technology prices. They all slow down the growth of players, which is exponential itself.
The value of all resources decreases over time (but AT and gold keep their value, they are inflation resistant)
The PTR is in red, because you received a lot of resources, if PTR was showing back then it would have been real bad already at that time. The reason why it's still red is either because it was simply so big that even after 2 years of visible PTR it didn't improve enough (percentage wise), and if it is now worse than before, it's because your account has grown slower than the inflation of the resources you received (this can be especially true if you didn't invest the resources you got into growth, but instead used it on technology, which does not generate revenue).
It's similar like taking a loan. Take massive loan and invest it, and if you use the loan wisely and make enough profit, you can repay the loan and be better than before. But if you take a massive loan, and spend it on a painting that you cannot sell, then even if you work hard, your loan might get bigger and bigger. I dont think the latter is your case.
Actually you have to pay back a multiple in kuwal or UU to repay the PTR debt, but if you repay it in AT, it will still be the same number of AT like 3 years ago, because AT don't lose value.
"if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it."
That doesn't make any sense!
If a beer costed 2 cents 100 years ago, there is no reason why it should cost 2 cents now. 2 cents 100 years ago were worth much more than they are worth now. 100 years ago salaries and income were much smaller. Same with Aderan Wars, 3 years ago, incomes were much smaller, and farming hits yielded much less kuwal too.
Keinutnai- Aderan Assassin
- Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:19 am
Keinutnai wrote:I took the liberty of moving this conversation out of the Mujengan-World Republic war thread.kingkongfan1 wrote:Keinutnai wrote:kingkongfan1 wrote:fivel wrote:actualy the price of the uu should of past this point by now, but cause the game is almost dead it will probably never get to that pointkingkongfan1 wrote:Keinutnai wrote:
One day UU will be expensive enough for MLRS to be more efficient than MA.
after this, I'll stop as I do not wish to spam this thread.
If it reaches that point, I will be extremely saddened as it means that someone has manipulated the market more than it is being manipulated now.
i just hope you now know what is this "MLRS is not effective" all about
yes, I did get that, & thank you for helping me to understand
When has he ever said such thing? He doesn't influence the galactic market at all. All prices are based on player bids alone. If you are unhappy with the prices, why don't you place your own bids?
to answer your question above, 1) the prices are too high. the 7 day average is...
1 Untrained = 365,427 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 191,408,204 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 510 Untrained
the actual prices atm are...
Buy 368,423 Untrained for your 140,000,371,577 Kuwal
[RATE: 1:379,999]
Buy 3,696 Turns for your 887,040,000,000 Kuwal
[RATE: 1:240,000,000]
Buy 2,940 Turns for your 2,049,180 Untrained
[RATE: 1:697]
2) what exactly do you want me to put a bid on? I already stated that I will not pay the artificially inflated prices of the items on the market. & there is "NOTHING" I want to sell. so please tell me what am I supposed to put a bid on.
It would be good for everyone if the gaps between buying and selling were smaller. The more people trade, the smaller gaps there will be (Active trading with bids being added).
You think UU prices are too high/too low?
I think I said too high, pretty sure I said too high.
What price do you think should UU and AT be at?
I do not know "what" the price should be set at. but I can guarantee if the GM were not being artificially manipulated to cause the prices to be as high as they are now, the prices would be much lower.
You should know that wars push the prices of UU and AT down, as it's usually kuwal that restraints players from being more deadly in wars. Players usually have enough AT and UU of their own.
Interesting that you say this, I have been playing AW for nigh on 3 years now & this is not what I have seen, but your defination of "pushing the prices down" might be different than mine. Or maybe I should pay more attention to the GM. to be honest I would suggest getting rid of the GM also, but I know that would never happen. too many players like playing Aderan wall street around here.
about the part in red above, I cannot find the particular post/thread, but I do remember the convo cause I thought the idea of having inflation in a game that artificially increased over time(the cost of resources is not player driven) so that the cost of all resources increased over time was a really bad idea then, & I still do. otherwise why is my ptr the way it is? "because all resources cost more today than they did 2-3 years ago when they were first gotten". Why?... because of this artificial inflation, to get my ptr back into the "safe" area I need to give away 2-3 times the amount of resources that was put on this account before I purchased it. if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it.
We cannot continue the discussion until it's clear how the markets work.
There are 2 separate markets: Trade Center and Galactic Market
This is how they work:
let me interrupt you here, I have SS & as long as I have SS I will never use the "Trade Center" because the deals there are so crappy I find that the MT's are better spent either using them for MR's to use as protection or in purchasing ST's during war, or getting AT's to raid with. why anyone with SS would use the "Trade Center" is beyond me.
Trade Center:
Trade Center has massive number of resources in all 3 types: kuwal, UU and AT
Whenever you buy one resource and sell some other resources, you are practically buying X% of the market in one resource type and selling same percentage (X%) of the market in another resource.\
(but you also pay small fee for each trade, worth 3.5% of the value)
People buy resources they consider cheap, and sell resources they consider expensive.
If they think AT is cheap, they will sell UU and kuwal to buy more AT. As they buy more AT, there is less AT in the trade center and the AT become more expensive.
Trade Center prices move towards market price, albeit very slowly, because the resources in the trade center are MASSIVE!
1 Package barely makes a difference.
Model Example (we assume you buy 150 AT and sell 150 AT per package):
If the trade center has:
150,000, AT
53,100,000 UU and
21,801,254,550,000 kuwal
UU price = 410,570
Let's sell 1 package of UU to get kuwal.
Kuwal Untrained Units Turns
[ 21,801,254,550 / 21,074,546,065 ] [ 53,100 / 51,330 ] [ 150 / 145 ]
+21,074,546,065 kuwal
-53,100 UU
Result:
150,000, AT
53,153,100 UU and
21,780,180,003,935 kuwal
New UU price: 409,763
UU price decreased by 807 kuwal.
In reality Trade Center has much more resources than that, thus prices change slower. Also since players are limited by market trades, they cannot trade as much as they like. That's why prices move towards market prices only very slowly.
Galactic Market:
Galactic Market can be easily understood with basic Economics and the laws of supply and demand. "The unit price for a particular good will vary until it settles at a point where the quantity demanded by consumers (at current price) will equal the quantity supplied by producers (at current price), resulting in an economic equilibrium of price and quantity."
On the galactic market, the prices are commanded by the invisible market forces. The offered prices are the market prices/real prices, as they are based on how much players are willing to pay for a certain resource in terms of another resource. A demand higher than supply will force the prices to surge, which will cause more people to stop buying it and more people to sell it (and vice versa).
Galactic Market allows as much trading as you want, as their are no restrictions on the quantity you can place on the market. It is only limited by the resources that other players placed on the market or want to trade with you.
Admin doesn't do anything with the trade center, nor with the galactic market. All changes in the prices are caused by players themselves by trading.
The prices on the Galactic Market resemble market prices, while Trade Center prices are only sluggishly moving towards market prices. That's why the 7 day average prices you can see on the galactic market are closer to real prices than trade center prices. That's why it is incorrect to say that galactic market prices are too high and claim that trade center prices are all right.
you misunderstand me, I never said that the prices on the "Trade Center" were "all right", as a matter of fact I think the prices/trades are worst on the "Trade Center" than they are on the GM.
"to answer your question above, 1) the prices are too high. the 7 day average is...
1 Untrained = 365,427 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 191,408,204 Kuwal
1 Attack Turn = 510 Untrained"
I assume you mean UU and AT is too expensive in terms of kuwal.
You would be correct with this assumption
If that is true, then why don't you sell your UU and AT?
What UU? I train my units, so I can grow my acct.
If UU and AT is expensive then it would be a good idea to sell them.
What AT's? I use my AT's to raid with & to defend my acct with, if I sold them, what would I raid with? or defend my acct with?
But if you do not want to sell them, then this might be a hint that actually UU and AT prices are too low.
I disagree.
If I wanted to buy your UU and AT, how much kuwal would you want for me per UU and per AT?
It makes no sense to me to sell to one I consider an enemy resources that the enemy could use against me. In plain English, I wouldn't sell anything to you for any price period.(no offense intended, just stating a fact.)
And now try to imagine this. Imagine that all players would behave like you. What would the price of UU and AT be on the galactic market? You can answer it yourself.
If more players were like me, this game would be 100% better off.
Just think of the lowest price at which you would agree to sell some of your UU and AT. And think about the highest price you are willing to pay for UU and AT.
You said you would never want to sell your UU and AT, but I believe if someone offered you 1,000,000 kuwal per UU, you would take it! And if they offered 1,000,000,000 kuwal per AT, would you not take it as well?
I wouldn't sell anything to anyone I consider an enemy for any price. & to sell to an ally for the prices you state above, would hurt my ptr so bad as to make the sale impossible.
Why farm some guy for 4 billion if you can sell 10 AT for 10 billion, right?
I have not "farmed" anyone in over a year, farming is not "profitable" anymore imo.
Think about it, and then you might not think anymore that the prices on the galactic market are unreasonable.
I am 100% sure that the galactic market offers resources cheaper than what you would offer them for.
You would not sell your UU for 369,000 kuwal and AT for 240,000,000, but the galactic market does.
I will not buy UU for 369,000, or AT for 240,000,000. & you are correct I generally do not sell either... as I said earlier, I use my resources
=> Please answer this part. I would like to know what prices you would be buying and selling at.
not 100% sure how to answer, but I would possibly be willing to purchase UU at or below 200,000 per UU, not sure I would be willing to purchase AT at more than maybe 50,000,000 per AT. but knowing that these prices are moot then I'm not sure I can successfully answer this for you
"You should know that wars push the prices of UU and AT down, as it's usually kuwal that restraints players from being more deadly in wars. Players usually have enough AT and UU of their own.
Interesting that you say this, I have been playing AW for nigh on 3 years now & this is not what I have seen, but your defination of "pushing the prices down" might be different than mine. Or maybe I should pay more attention to the GM. to be honest I would suggest getting rid of the GM also, but I know that would never happen. too many players like playing Aderan wall street around here."
And I am one of them. You probably didn't notice the change, because you don't trade much. I am on the GM every day.
then why is the game called aderan wars, when it should be called aderan wall street?
admin has already stated he has set the price to automatically inflate on a regular/semi-regular basis.
about the part in red above, I cannot find the particular post/thread, but I do remember the convo cause I thought the idea of having inflation in a game that artificially increased over time(the cost of resources is not player driven) so that the cost of all resources increased over time was a really bad idea then, & I still do. otherwise why is my ptr the way it is? "because all resources cost more today than they did 2-3 years ago when they were first gotten". Why?... because of this artificial inflation, to get my ptr back into the "safe" area I need to give away 2-3 times the amount of resources that was put on this account before I purchased it. if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it.
This sounds like an error in communication.
It was me who was mentioning inflation before. I never saw anyone talk about inflation except me. Inflation harms the game, especially hyperinflation. What admin has done was implement changes which fight inflation, ie. prevent inflation from happening/slow it down. Examples include: Supply Turns, Administrative Efficiency and exponentially growing UP technology prices. They all slow down the growth of players, which is exponential itself.
The value of all resources decreases over time (but AT and gold keep their value, they are inflation resistant)
The PTR is in red, because you received a lot of resources, if PTR was showing back then it would have been real bad already at that time. The reason why it's still red is either because it was simply so big that even after 2 years of visible PTR it didn't improve enough (percentage wise), and if it is now worse than before, it's because your account has grown slower than the inflation of the resources you received (this can be especially true if you didn't invest the resources you got into growth, but instead used it on technology, which does not generate revenue).
It's similar like taking a loan. Take massive loan and invest it, and if you use the loan wisely and make enough profit, you can repay the loan and be better than before. But if you take a massive loan, and spend it on a painting that you cannot sell, then even if you work hard, your loan might get bigger and bigger. I dont think the latter is your case.
Actually you have to pay back a multiple in kuwal or UU to repay the PTR debt, but if you repay it in AT, it will still be the same number of AT like 3 years ago, because AT don't lose value.
"if a turn cost 10,000 2-3 years ago, (other than the exception of "player driven" increases) then is should still cost 10,000 now, but that is not the case now is it."
That doesn't make any sense!
it makes perfect sense to me. if I set a price for something in the past, why should I change the price ever? its a game. & the price can remain static forever if I want it to.
If a beer costed 2 cents 100 years ago, there is no reason why it should cost 2 cents now. 2 cents 100 years ago were worth much more than they are worth now. 100 years ago salaries and income were much smaller. Same with Aderan Wars, 3 years ago, incomes were much smaller, and farming hits yielded much less kuwal too.
I am done here, you have your way of thinking, & I have mine. & I really do not see a meeting of the minds happening here.
this statement...
Keinutnai wrote:mental wrote:You take this too seriously, I play for fun and if I want an upgrade I legitimise it without putting much thought into it, ie "I WANT THAT ONE!"
If I ever found myself putting this much thought/effort into a game, I'd know I need to go and have a lie down.
What's effort for you, is relaxing for me.
I do these calculations for fun.
Someone might watch some tv, or read a book, I'll do some number crunching instead.
...explains a lot, out of all the active players who post in these forums, you are the only one to make such a statement. the majority of post I have read are from players who do not enjoy number crunching.
also as a matter of statement, I have built my acct to be self sufficient. I do not need to go to the GM, or buy/sell/trade with others as my acct supplies my needs, my acct grows every day, & I do plenty of raiding with an average raid hit of 8,000 per hit or more so I am not hurting for anything.
& one last point I want to make before I wash my hands of this discussion,,, I play this game to get away from reality. the less reality in the game the more I like it. if I wanted realism, I would watch the news instead of playing a game. I am the guy that wants lasers & light-sabers, monsters & mazes, you know, fantasy. I live in reality, I do not want to play there. you & admin apparently have different thought & want as much realism as you can possibly pack into the game, which is fine as it is your game so do as you wish, just don't get upset when I do not play the game.
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:32 pm
I didnt realise that you are planning to end the discussion until I read the last bit (by that time I already answered most of it).
I hope you can still answer this one.
let me interrupt you here, I have SS & as long as I have SS I will never use the "Trade Center" because the deals there are so crappy I find that the MT's are better spent either using them for MR's to use as protection or in purchasing ST's during war, or getting AT's to raid with. why anyone with SS would use the "Trade Center" is beyond me.
I havent used trade center for trading for years myself. I prefer to get market reserves instead.
I get all resources I need from GM anyway.
so please tell me what am I supposed to put a bid on.
Everything! And I mean it. Place bids on all 6 types of trading. Even if you don't want these resources you can still trade them and make profit on it.
You dont want to buy Attack Turns for 140,000,000? Why not? You raid a guy for 3 billion and you already earned the double!
Or you can buy AT for 140 million and sell the same turns for 240 million.
If you bought and sold 10k AT this way, you would make a profit of 1 trillion this way!
you misunderstand me, I never said that the prices on the "Trade Center" were "all right", as a matter of fact I think the prices/trades are worst on the "Trade Center" than they are on the GM.
Prices cannot be worse. They can be either higher or lower. (Because you can trade in both directions)
Trade Center has a smaller buy-sell spread than GM.
If you want to buy or sell your AT, and you want your resources immediately, it will be cheaper for you to use Trade Center. If you can wait, then make a bid on the GM and it will be even cheaper for you.
Both have advantages and disadvantages.
If more players were like me, this game would be 100% better off.
Please explain, why.
I wouldn't sell anything to anyone I consider an enemy for any price. & to sell to an ally for the prices you state above, would hurt my ptr so bad as to make the sale impossible.
Does it mean you would not use the galactic market?
If you traded for the prices specified above, you PTR would practically not change at all.
I have not "farmed" anyone in over a year, farming is not "profitable" anymore imo.
So you must raid. How many UU do you raid on average? My average is around 10k. If I can sell my UU for 375,000, this means that farming 4 billion is better for me than raiding 10k UU.
=> Please answer this part. I would like to know what prices you would be buying and selling at.
not 100% sure how to answer, but I would possibly be willing to purchase UU at or below 200,000 per UU, not sure I would be willing to purchase AT at more than maybe 50,000,000 per AT. but knowing that these prices are moot then I'm not sure I can successfully answer this for you
Please also answer how much kuwal would a guy have to offer to you so that you sell him your UU or AT. Would 1,000,000 kuwal per AT be enough?
then why is the game called aderan wars, when it should be called aderan wall street?
This game is about empires. And empires not only fight wars, but they also trade. It's all part of what an empire does.
The game could be called even Aderan Empires for all I care.
It's good that the game offers much more than only wars.
also as a matter of statement, I have built my acct to be self sufficient. I do not need to go to the GM, or buy/sell/trade with others as my acct supplies my needs, my acct grows every day, & I do plenty of raiding with an average raid hit of 8,000 per hit or more so I am not hurting for anything.
All accounts are self sufficient, but if you want to be the best, you have to play better than others. To be the best, you have to make the most out of your resources. And why raid 8,000 UU, if you can use your 10 AT to farm 4 billion and trade it on GM for 11,000 UU?
It's not because the prices are too high. It's because you hate trading and you hate the galactic market. So why didn't you say it in the first place, that you dont want to trade because you dont want use math when playing a game. It seems that the prices aren't an issue. The math is.
& one last point I want to make before I wash my hands of this discussion,,, I play this game to get away from reality. the less reality in the game the more I like it. if I wanted realism, I would watch the news instead of playing a game. I am the guy that wants lasers & light-sabers, monsters & mazes, you know, fantasy. I live in reality, I do not want to play there. you & admin apparently have different thought & want as much realism as you can possibly pack into the game, which is fine as it is your game so do as you wish, just don't get upset when I do not play the game.
All games build on reality. It cannot be avoided. Especially wherever you deal with real people. Because if a game is influenced by real people (if you dont play a single player game), the game will inherently be like real life, because in real life you deal with real people who would make similar decisions. That's why trading and ingame politics is so similar to real world markets and world politics.
Even fantasy games where you fight with magic you will find a lot of things from reality, such as armor, which will have similarities with medieval armor, the weapons, cities and much more.
But if you think about it, Aderan Wars simplifies a lot. People send millions of troops with the same type of unit. Let's attack someone with 1,000,000 mobile artilleries. In real life combined arms are used, a mix of foot soldiers, trucks, APCs, tanks, mobile artillery, dozens of different small arms, dozens of different missiles. If Aderan Wars was like real wars, it would have been too stressful for most of us. Fortunately it is only a model of war, and that's why it's much easier to manage. 1 person can control the whole empire. You don't need thousands of staff to take care of it.
But whatever you do, you cannot avoid that people will behave in games like in real life, in their personal interest. That's why no one is going to sell AT to you for 50,000,000. And that's why it's unfair for you to say that the prices for resources that real people sell are too high, if you yourself are unwilling to sell your resources at these high prices.
I hope you can still answer this one.
let me interrupt you here, I have SS & as long as I have SS I will never use the "Trade Center" because the deals there are so crappy I find that the MT's are better spent either using them for MR's to use as protection or in purchasing ST's during war, or getting AT's to raid with. why anyone with SS would use the "Trade Center" is beyond me.
I havent used trade center for trading for years myself. I prefer to get market reserves instead.
I get all resources I need from GM anyway.
so please tell me what am I supposed to put a bid on.
Everything! And I mean it. Place bids on all 6 types of trading. Even if you don't want these resources you can still trade them and make profit on it.
You dont want to buy Attack Turns for 140,000,000? Why not? You raid a guy for 3 billion and you already earned the double!
Or you can buy AT for 140 million and sell the same turns for 240 million.
If you bought and sold 10k AT this way, you would make a profit of 1 trillion this way!
you misunderstand me, I never said that the prices on the "Trade Center" were "all right", as a matter of fact I think the prices/trades are worst on the "Trade Center" than they are on the GM.
Prices cannot be worse. They can be either higher or lower. (Because you can trade in both directions)
Trade Center has a smaller buy-sell spread than GM.
If you want to buy or sell your AT, and you want your resources immediately, it will be cheaper for you to use Trade Center. If you can wait, then make a bid on the GM and it will be even cheaper for you.
Both have advantages and disadvantages.
If more players were like me, this game would be 100% better off.
Please explain, why.
I wouldn't sell anything to anyone I consider an enemy for any price. & to sell to an ally for the prices you state above, would hurt my ptr so bad as to make the sale impossible.
Does it mean you would not use the galactic market?
If you traded for the prices specified above, you PTR would practically not change at all.
I have not "farmed" anyone in over a year, farming is not "profitable" anymore imo.
So you must raid. How many UU do you raid on average? My average is around 10k. If I can sell my UU for 375,000, this means that farming 4 billion is better for me than raiding 10k UU.
=> Please answer this part. I would like to know what prices you would be buying and selling at.
not 100% sure how to answer, but I would possibly be willing to purchase UU at or below 200,000 per UU, not sure I would be willing to purchase AT at more than maybe 50,000,000 per AT. but knowing that these prices are moot then I'm not sure I can successfully answer this for you
Please also answer how much kuwal would a guy have to offer to you so that you sell him your UU or AT. Would 1,000,000 kuwal per AT be enough?
then why is the game called aderan wars, when it should be called aderan wall street?
This game is about empires. And empires not only fight wars, but they also trade. It's all part of what an empire does.
The game could be called even Aderan Empires for all I care.
It's good that the game offers much more than only wars.
also as a matter of statement, I have built my acct to be self sufficient. I do not need to go to the GM, or buy/sell/trade with others as my acct supplies my needs, my acct grows every day, & I do plenty of raiding with an average raid hit of 8,000 per hit or more so I am not hurting for anything.
All accounts are self sufficient, but if you want to be the best, you have to play better than others. To be the best, you have to make the most out of your resources. And why raid 8,000 UU, if you can use your 10 AT to farm 4 billion and trade it on GM for 11,000 UU?
It's not because the prices are too high. It's because you hate trading and you hate the galactic market. So why didn't you say it in the first place, that you dont want to trade because you dont want use math when playing a game. It seems that the prices aren't an issue. The math is.
& one last point I want to make before I wash my hands of this discussion,,, I play this game to get away from reality. the less reality in the game the more I like it. if I wanted realism, I would watch the news instead of playing a game. I am the guy that wants lasers & light-sabers, monsters & mazes, you know, fantasy. I live in reality, I do not want to play there. you & admin apparently have different thought & want as much realism as you can possibly pack into the game, which is fine as it is your game so do as you wish, just don't get upset when I do not play the game.
All games build on reality. It cannot be avoided. Especially wherever you deal with real people. Because if a game is influenced by real people (if you dont play a single player game), the game will inherently be like real life, because in real life you deal with real people who would make similar decisions. That's why trading and ingame politics is so similar to real world markets and world politics.
Even fantasy games where you fight with magic you will find a lot of things from reality, such as armor, which will have similarities with medieval armor, the weapons, cities and much more.
But if you think about it, Aderan Wars simplifies a lot. People send millions of troops with the same type of unit. Let's attack someone with 1,000,000 mobile artilleries. In real life combined arms are used, a mix of foot soldiers, trucks, APCs, tanks, mobile artillery, dozens of different small arms, dozens of different missiles. If Aderan Wars was like real wars, it would have been too stressful for most of us. Fortunately it is only a model of war, and that's why it's much easier to manage. 1 person can control the whole empire. You don't need thousands of staff to take care of it.
But whatever you do, you cannot avoid that people will behave in games like in real life, in their personal interest. That's why no one is going to sell AT to you for 50,000,000. And that's why it's unfair for you to say that the prices for resources that real people sell are too high, if you yourself are unwilling to sell your resources at these high prices.
Keinutnai- Aderan Assassin
- Alliance : World Republic
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Registration date : 2011-04-08
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Special Agent 47 Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:50 pm
Just courious if you understand that single players, or groups can control the prices on the GM and can use it to make a great deal of profit for themselves, but forcing others to pay higher prices by doing so?
Special Agent 47- Aderan Assassin
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:27 pm
Special Agent 47 wrote:Just courious if you understand that single players, or groups can control the prices on the GM and can use it to make a great deal of profit for themselves, but forcing others to pay higher prices by doing so?
Yes, to some extent they can influence the market, but they can definitely not force someone to pay a price he doesn't want to pay. Let's say there would be a powerful group which buys off all UU from the market and then sells them at horendous prices. No one will buy UU at horendous prices, and people who got UU will benefit a lot, because they can undercut the horendouse prices of the group, forcing the group to buy overpriced UU themselves.
Everyone can make a bid. Obviously if some people only go on GM to trade immediately and don't place any bids of their own, they are going to pay more for the same amount of resources than patient people who place bids.
What is your feeling about UU and AT prices? Too low too high? What do you think a fair price should be?
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Special Agent 47 Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:27 am
I dont use the market unless I have no other option, and so far I have always had another option. I think the GM is the nail in the coffin of player to player interaction when it comes to trading. In that regard this game sucks the most of all my past games. Why this game punishes you for knowing who you trade with is still beyond me. It is just like officer trades and alliance trades. Utterly useless and damaging to the most important aspect of this type of game. Player to player interaction. JMO
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:40 am
Special Agent 47 wrote:I dont use the market unless I have no other option, and so far I have always had another option. I think the GM is the nail in the coffin of player to player interaction when it comes to trading. In that regard this game sucks the most of all my past games. Why this game punishes you for knowing who you trade with is still beyond me. It is just like officer trades and alliance trades. Utterly useless and damaging to the most important aspect of this type of game. Player to player interaction. JMO
You & I see things a bit differently, but our thoughts are the same here. Personally I have explained my p.o.v. till I am blue in the face & it is quite apparent that keinutnai/kenzu still cannot seem to understand what is being said to him, as such I have decided it isn't worth the effort anymore, but you continue to fight the good fight if you still got the desire.
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by mental Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:30 pm
I have to agree GM does take the soul of the game away, Having trading partners and building friendly relations(or not) is the best part of a game like this.
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:51 pm
mental wrote:I have to agree GM does take the soul of the game away, Having trading partners and building friendly relations(or not) is the best part of a game like this.
GM still has wide gaps. If you got traders, who will trade with you inbetween, that can be beneficial.
But the GM is better than traditional trading (looking for partners on forums, discussing the price), because it allows a much bigger number of people to participate on trading. People who want to use traditional methods of trading can do so, while most people use GM, but if there was no GM, there would be much less people trading and that's not good for a game.
@others
Stop mentioning PTR please. There is not a single person who would suffer or not be able to trade because of PTR. Trading has negligible effect on PTR, it's feeding which causes PTR to shift strong.
Keinutnai- Aderan Assassin
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Special Agent 47 Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:54 pm
No one is saying the GM is "all bad", why is it so hard for you to see that the present GM alone, and the present system of punishing a player for knowing their trade partner, is bad for player to player interaction?
I am not asking for removal of GM. GM is absolutely great for impulse buying. What has been asked for over the years is a system that allows player to player interaction and does not punish you for knowing who you trade with. WHY, and please answer me this, WHY is trading for the EXACT same rate to someone you know penalised where trading with an unknown, or with an enemy who is using those resources against you is forced upon you?
So it is your opinion GM is better then traditional trading, but those of us who love and use traditional trading will most definitly disagree with you. To us old sckool traders it is one of the most important and "fun" aspects of the game. This game is dead in that respect. We can't even trade within the alliance without being punished. A crying shame.
I am not asking for removal of GM. GM is absolutely great for impulse buying. What has been asked for over the years is a system that allows player to player interaction and does not punish you for knowing who you trade with. WHY, and please answer me this, WHY is trading for the EXACT same rate to someone you know penalised where trading with an unknown, or with an enemy who is using those resources against you is forced upon you?
So it is your opinion GM is better then traditional trading, but those of us who love and use traditional trading will most definitly disagree with you. To us old sckool traders it is one of the most important and "fun" aspects of the game. This game is dead in that respect. We can't even trade within the alliance without being punished. A crying shame.
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:29 pm
Influence on PTR is not a punishment.
A fine where admin takes away resources from cheater, now that is a punishment.
Please explain to me, how trading with friends penalises you? What penalties did you incur?
I think that admin said it already before, that legitimate trading is fine. Nothing is going to happen to you if you trade for reasonable prices.
A fine where admin takes away resources from cheater, now that is a punishment.
Please explain to me, how trading with friends penalises you? What penalties did you incur?
I think that admin said it already before, that legitimate trading is fine. Nothing is going to happen to you if you trade for reasonable prices.
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:00 pm
Keinutnai wrote:Influence on PTR is not a punishment.
If trading on the GM has no effect on a players Ptr, why do trades with players that you know where one resource is traded for another resource of equal value influence trading? is my question.
A fine where admin takes away resources from cheater, now that is a punishment.
Please explain to me, how trading with friends penalizes you? What penalties did you incur?
My response to this question is this. due to Ptr, I have not been able to do any trades with anyone due to taking over an acct with such a high Ptr. yes, I consider not being able to do any trading a penalty. I took over this acct on ~ 11/26/11 or 26/11/11 whichever way you want to read it. at the time it had a ptr of 49%. (this is due primarily to actions that went on prior to Ptr being released that admin was apparently o.k. with, or failed to adequately explain the consequences of such actions & the results they would have when ptr was released) In the time I have been playing this acct I have done all I know to "grow" this acct, to "lower" the ptr such as raiding, increasing UP etc. during all this, I managed to get the ptr down to 41.28% having gotten purely disgusted with how long it is taking me to get the ptr on this acct back into the GREEN, I have in the last 24 hours "donated" (that means gave away) in excess of 10,000 AT's to random players. but still yet, the ptr only dropped to a mere 40.81% I know I still have to give away another 14,000 AT's (according to my "Grand Total" number) but at the rate my Ptr is coming down, I will still be in the red when I finally reach that goal. So it comes down to a difference of opinion here, keinutnai/kenzu does not see this as a penalty. I do. it is my opinion & I'm sticking to it. For those of you wanting to know, I took over this acct before Gold was released. ( this acct has permanent SS, where my previous acct didn't) Had I known that the Gold update was going to come out when it did; or that it was going to be such a pain in the ass to get the ptr down to a reasonable percentage, I would have kept my old acct instead of trading, but once the trade was done I wasn't going back.
I think that admin said it already before, that legitimate trading is fine. Nothing is going to happen to you if you trade for reasonable prices.
Last edited by kingkongfan1 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more info...)
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Special Agent 47 Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:16 am
Keinutnai wrote:Influence on PTR is not a punishment.
A fine where admin takes away resources from cheater, now that is a punishment.
Please explain to me, how trading with friends penalises you? What penalties did you incur?
I think that admin said it already before, that legitimate trading is fine. Nothing is going to happen to you if you trade for reasonable prices.
I am unsure where you are bringing PTR into this as I have not mentioned it, nor do I have any issues with the correlation of GM trades to PTR. So you will have to discuss that one with yourself or Kong.
I consider losing 2% of a trade a penalty.
I brokered to a non alliance friend 100 UU for 100 UU got back 98 UU
I brokered to an alliance mate 100 UU for 100 UU got back 98 UU
I brokered to an officer 100 UU for 100 UU got back 98 UU
But if I buy from market 100 UU I receive 100 UU.
I consider that a penalty and a punishment.
As for legitimate trading being fine we know that. I think, or atleast hope to have cleared up your confusion as to what the problem here is. Its not PTR, it the way the GM is set up to force you to sell to an unknown or an enemy, and penalizes/punishes you for trading with a friend, allie, officer, alliance mate, or just knowing who your trading with, therefore going a long way to killing the entire point of the game which is player to player interaction. Presently the only P2P interaction is strictly war based, so no "pleasant" side of P2PI.
@ Kong,,,,,
14,000 more AT will not green light you, at least I do not think it will. Admin said more then once he planned to address PTR but it has fallen to the way side. I can only hope he gets a chance in the future.
As for your issues, sadly it is your fault and the prior owners fault about your PTR and not the fault of the GM. It bears little to none on your PTR. You do make a great point as to why two exact trades have different effects on PTR, but that was argued long ago and Admin chose to make it so. Just as he chose to make alliance trades and officer to commander trades the way they are.
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:38 am
So you are upset about the 2%? I always ignored the little fee.
So basically private trading is at a disadvantage when trading UU and AT because fees are accompanied, but not on GM.
As for kuwal trading, 2% fee applies in all instances.
Since most trades involve kuwal one one side and another resource on the other (at on one side and uu on other is much more seldom), I'd say that on the total volume the difference in fee is only about 1% (2% on one side, 0 on the other).
But if it bothers you and others so much, I don't see a problem of removing it and making the fees same both GM and private broker.
So basically private trading is at a disadvantage when trading UU and AT because fees are accompanied, but not on GM.
As for kuwal trading, 2% fee applies in all instances.
Since most trades involve kuwal one one side and another resource on the other (at on one side and uu on other is much more seldom), I'd say that on the total volume the difference in fee is only about 1% (2% on one side, 0 on the other).
But if it bothers you and others so much, I don't see a problem of removing it and making the fees same both GM and private broker.
Keinutnai- Aderan Assassin
- Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Manleva Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:10 am
I think that you are missing some of the basic points being made.
Trading on the GM is basically unrestricted while Private brokers affect PTR.
Trading on the GM is Blind and there is no control over who you can sell to.
You have mentioned comparisons to reality so I would say that in reality you don't trade with your enemy.
I would say that there is a simple answer here. Admin has set upper and lower limits for trading in the GM so really I see no reason that these limits cannot be applied to PTR. If you are trading within these limits then no changes are made to PTR.
I would also follow this up with the removal of the PTR page because it would no longer be necessary. If your serious about dealing with feeding then you remove the features that allow users to push the limits. I will also add that Account Growth has little or no impact on PTR.
@Kong - If you had asked I would have advised against acquiring your current account and said that a more satisfying investment would have been in cookies
Oh and here's a thought for the 2% fee send the UU and Kuwal to a NPC account that has 0 defense but randomly change the ID and name every so often then players could search for it and recover some of the resources (At could be converted 50/50 to UU and Kuwal)
Trading on the GM is basically unrestricted while Private brokers affect PTR.
Trading on the GM is Blind and there is no control over who you can sell to.
You have mentioned comparisons to reality so I would say that in reality you don't trade with your enemy.
I would say that there is a simple answer here. Admin has set upper and lower limits for trading in the GM so really I see no reason that these limits cannot be applied to PTR. If you are trading within these limits then no changes are made to PTR.
I would also follow this up with the removal of the PTR page because it would no longer be necessary. If your serious about dealing with feeding then you remove the features that allow users to push the limits. I will also add that Account Growth has little or no impact on PTR.
@Kong - If you had asked I would have advised against acquiring your current account and said that a more satisfying investment would have been in cookies
Oh and here's a thought for the 2% fee send the UU and Kuwal to a NPC account that has 0 defense but randomly change the ID and name every so often then players could search for it and recover some of the resources (At could be converted 50/50 to UU and Kuwal)
Manleva- Aderan Assassin
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Alliance : TMI
Age : 66
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:12 pm
Special Agent 47 wrote:Keinutnai wrote:Influence on PTR is not a punishment.
A fine where admin takes away resources from cheater, now that is a punishment.
Please explain to me, how trading with friends penalises you? What penalties did you incur?
I think that admin said it already before, that legitimate trading is fine. Nothing is going to happen to you if you trade for reasonable prices.
I am unsure where you are bringing PTR into this as I have not mentioned it, nor do I have any issues with the correlation of GM trades to PTR. So you will have to discuss that one with yourself or Kong.
I consider losing 2% of a trade a penalty.
I brokered to a non alliance friend 100 UU for 100 UU got back 98 UU
I brokered to an alliance mate 100 UU for 100 UU got back 98 UU
I brokered to an officer 100 UU for 100 UU got back 98 UU
But if I buy from market 100 UU I receive 100 UU.
I consider that a penalty and a punishment.
I agree with this statement as well.
As for legitimate trading being fine we know that. I think, or a tleast hope to have cleared up your confusion as to what the problem here is. Its not PTR, it the way the GM is set up to force you to sell to an unknown or an enemy, and penalizes/punishes you for trading with a friend, ally, officer, alliance mate, or just knowing who your trading with,
This is the point I was trying to make as well.
therefore going a long way to killing the entire point of the game which is player to player interaction. Presently the only P2P interaction is strictly war based, so no "pleasant" side of P2PI.
@ Kong,,,,,
14,000 more AT will not green light you, at least I do not think it will. Admin said more then once he planned to address PTR but it has fallen to the way side. I can only hope he gets a chance in the future.
I do not figure it will, as this is tied to the "inflation" I was speaking about before. It will prove interesting as to exactly how much of this acct I will have to give away in order to get the Ptr back into the "green" as this is something that is on my "bucket list" so to speak.
As for your issues, sadly it is your fault and the prior owners fault about your PTR and not the fault of the GM. It bears little to none on your PTR.* You do make a great point as to why two exact trades have different effects on PTR, but that was argued long ago and Admin chose to make it so. Just as he chose to make alliance trades and officer to commander trades the way they are.**
(*)You are correct, that the fault lies with me & I accepted the high Ptr then, & I am dealing with it still, but I always figured I would have the Ptr back into the green by now with increasing the UP & with all the raiding I have done. I got this acct with ~50,000,000 TP, it is at ~98,000,000 TP now with all the growth coming from my UP or raiding exclusively. & this only moves the Ptr from 49% to 41.28%. Idk. (**) voiced the fact that I was against this then, my mind hasn't changed.
Manleva wrote:
@Kong - If you had asked I would have advised against acquiring your current account and said that a more satisfying investment would have been in cookies
As usual, you are quite correct. When next I consider any such actions, I shall seek out your advice beforehand.
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Special Agent 47 Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:36 pm
Manleva wrote:I think that you are missing some of the basic points being made.
Trading on the GM is basically unrestricted while Private brokers affect PTR.
Trading on the GM is Blind and there is no control over who you can sell to.
You have mentioned comparisons to reality so I would say that in reality you don't trade with your enemy.
I would say that there is a simple answer here. Admin has set upper and lower limits for trading in the GM so really I see no reason that these limits cannot be applied to PTR. If you are trading within these limits then no changes are made to PTR.
I can see this as a good idea.
I would also follow this up with the removal of the PTR page because it would no longer be necessary. If your serious about dealing with feeding then you remove the features that allow users to push the limits.
I would have to disagree here, or ask for some form of a get around. One of the things the present system allows that this would kill is loans. I do an extensive amount of loans in this game. For example, I sent 5 mill men to a player B for player A as a loan to player A. Player B sent player A XXX. Now player B sends me a daily payment toward returning the loan, and will then pay me a small fee to cover the lost %s and for my help. Doing as you are saying kills all loans. Commanders can not help officers, or visversa. Alliances can not help members, etc, etc. Now make alliance membership mean something, and make officer and commander relationships mean something by allow those to bypass the hard limits and I am fine with it.
I will also add that Account Growth has little or no impact on PTR.
I use to think that it did, but now I am not so sure. I think the main problem is the "inflation". The longer ago an account got some resources, the longer it will take to fix the PTR. An account who got 1 mill men 3 yrs ago is having to "pay back" 10 or 15 mill men (example based or random numbers, not fact, just example)today, where an account that got 1 mill men 1 year ago is paying back a far lower % more like 3 to 5 mill men. Some accounts gained resources before PTR was released, and so early in the game that even with massive account growth they may never be able to correct their PTR because the rate of growth is not overtaking the rate of inflation.
***Everything stated above is an abstract though and not proven with science or math. I do feel there is something wrong in the system when an account like Kong's present account exists. It is also why officer/CO loans, and alliance loans are utterly useless. When you have to pay back more then you borrowed then why not just knuckle down and do it yourself?
@Kong - If you had asked I would have advised against acquiring your current account and said that a more satisfying investment would have been in cookies
Oh and here's a thought for the 2% fee send the UU and Kuwal to a NPC account that has 0 defense but randomly change the ID and name every so often then players could search for it and recover some of the resources (At could be converted 50/50 to UU and Kuwal)
Just want to clarify that my issue revolves solely around the fact you pay a 2% penalty for knowing who you trade with. If that penalty was removed and GM trades effected all aspects of trading in an identical manner as nonGM trades I would be fine with the changes.
I personally think building strong ties through trade is one of the most powerful forces there is in P2PI. Everyone knows whats said in done on forums, but few know the truth of what is done behind closed doors. Another very valid tactic is to starve an enemy of resources. Refusing to sell to them directly, or to anyone who you think would sell to them. Also buying up an excess resources to stop an enemy from getting them. All these tactics are lost on this game.
Keinutnai wrote:So you are upset about the 2%? I always ignored the little fee.
You can say you do not care about a 2% loss, but I feel you are not being honest and here is why. You say your trades are all legit and straight up, all within the rules and such. You have admitted receiving resources during war, and giving away resources during peace. That means if you lost 2% of the resources when they were sent to you, and then another 2% were lost when you sent them back, then 4% of all resources in motion has been lost. At just 1 million men that is 40K UU lost. At 10,000 AT that's 400 AT lost. Your honestly going to sit there and claim how "efficient" certain techs and levels are but claim losing 4% of all shared/moved/etc resources "doesn't bother you"? You may feel that way, but to an outsider looking in it looks like pure hypocrisy. If you didn't care about losing 4% of every trade, you wouldn't care about if the cost for a level is justified by its efficiency. JMO
So basically private trading is at a disadvantage when trading UU and AT because fees are accompanied, but not on GM.
Yes, that is my main complaint, but as others have mentioned the GM allows completely PTR free trades. So in effect private trading is further penalized by the fact a trade done on GM that is 10AT total value skewed to one side or the other does not effect PTR where an IDENTICAL trade done privately does effect PTR. I think this is the point others are finding contention with.
As for kuwal trading, 2% fee applies in all instances.
Just for clarification, you are saying all trades that have Kuwal involved the person using kuwal is charged 2% while the person using anything else but kuwel is not? and this is private trades and GM trades? I am asking since you say "in all instances".
Since most trades involve kuwal one one side and another resource on the other (at on one side and uu on other is much more seldom), I'd say that on the total volume the difference in fee is only about 1% (2% on one side, 0 on the other).
That would be your assumption based on your trading habits. That assumption would not be even remotely close to an account such as mine. People looking to buy with kuwel got to GM. Most people coming to me are looking to trade in AT and UU. I do make trades to people when they need large sums of kuwel at 1 time, so it does happen, but no where near 50% of the time like you assume.
But if it bothers you and others so much, I don't see a problem of removing it and making the fees same both GM and private broker.
Well to be honest yes it does bother. It bothers me now just like it bothered me years ago when this same issue was hotly debated. Just as officer and commander trades, and alliance trades were hotly debated as being completely useless. I am glad you can see where my complaint is coming from, but you are not Martin, so until he agrees with you I won't get my hopes up. Remember that the last time this was debated he stated it was done for a reason and that it was the way he wanted it.
Special Agent 47- Aderan Assassin
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:54 pm
Manleva wrote: I will also add that Account Growth has little or no impact on PTR.
I apologize Manleva as I meant to comment upon this statement in my last post, but I completely agree with you as that very thing has been my experience.I am pretty sure that admin did say at some point in a previous conversation that one way to lower a players Ptr was through acct growth.
- Spoiler:
- Admin wrote:
20% of your account valueNomad wrote:20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.
How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%
Until the end of the post, when I say increase ratio it means that you're increasing the net amount of resources that went into your account. Decreasing ratio means decreasing the net amount of resources went into your account.
I keep writing posts answering all questions people have and yet I seem to be writing the same thing over and over again.Nomad wrote:Can you not see why we have problems understanding?
I see 2 major issues.
Me having selected a bad approach in introducing an update that will make sure less people get banned for feeding.
And people writing their own posts too much and reading my posts too little, meaning I have to reply to one answer multiple times because it's different people asking it.Nomad wrote:Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.
Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.Admin wrote:then again only if you're found to not work to improve your ratio then you might get into actual trouble, until then you'll just get some occasional automatic message.Admin wrote:There will be no hard limit where by reaching it you will automatically get punished or cannot send or receive resources.
There will be a recommended value, currently the idea is around 20-25% of your account value (so you can reduce this % by simply growing)
You get redlined, ok great, where's the problem with that? I've said on multiple occassions (see spoiler above) that just because someone gets redlined doesn't mean they are in trouble.
You get in trouble if you get redlined and then keep worsening your ratio for weeks and months on end.
So for the 4th time now (3rd time was where it's mentioned in the wiki page):
Whether you're below or above 20% is not important, what's important is that you dont keep increasing it over long periods of time
How do you increase the ratio:
Sell resources for high rates through the broker
Receive resources from others
Reduce your account value
How do you reduce the ratio:
Sell resources for low rates through the broker
Send resources to others
Let your account growSo let's see, a guy with 3k army get's a 50 bil present from someone. They use that to build their up.
They end up with a ratio of almost 100% then.
In 10 days, they will produce 100k units, and by doing that their ratio will drop to 73%.
Conditions for not being in trouble have been met. Case closed.
If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.Nomad wrote:And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.
You get massed, your ratio increases obviously, you rebuild and it will automatically drop again. I see no problemNomad wrote:How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?
There was a discussion somewhere about making this game a bit less math based, well I think this would be sort of unexpected side effect. Dont jack up your transfer ratio too much, even if it means you could have grown faster.
One person sends the other 500 bil kuwal, both person's ratios will make a jump and the game will notice it and watch them.Nomad wrote:What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
Then over the next few weeks the loan gets repaid slowly which means both people's ratios will start correcting again (as well as correct through their natural growth) and end up wherever they started from.
Last but not least:
Who will be affected radically by this update?
The people who keep sending their resources away day after week after month, not allowing their account to grow, resulting in their ratio to eventually pass 20% and then keep increasing all the time until they are noticed, warned and banned for feeding.
As declared illegal by Specific rules #11) Having a friend login in order to do anything in which your account will benefit and which is beyond "teamwork" for whatever reason is forbidden.
A friend doesn't play anymore so he repeatedly loggs in to send you his resources which his account produces.
So did I misunderstand what admin posted?
Last edited by kingkongfan1 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fix a boo-boo...)
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:30 pm
If I raid a couple million UU. I see it positively impacts my PTR value almost immediately. (It takes some time for the PTR to change. Maybe a couple hours or 1 day, but it's clear it improved because of the raiding).
Keinutnai- Aderan Assassin
- Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by mental Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:59 pm
As far as I know PTR updates at midnight gametime unless you trade outside of the GM.
mental- Aderan Miner
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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:04 pm
I have never said my Ptr did not go down; as is quite obvious in my previous post, the main thought behind my post is that for all the growth I have put on this acct the Ptr does not seem to have dropped proportionately imo.Keinutnai wrote:If I raid a couple million UU. I see it positively impacts my PTR value almost immediately. (It takes some time for the PTR to change. Maybe a couple hours or 1 day, but it's clear it improved because of the raiding).
So as a way of putting this Ptr discussion to rest, (at least as far as I am concerned) I present the following information...
**********
Total sent
Kuwal-22,282,954,041,993
Untrained-129,723,634
Turns-287,344
Cumulative Value- 3,251,698 Turn
__________
Total received
Kuwal-20,635,803,662,447
Untrained-120,589,951
Turns-300,363
Cumulative Value- 4,254,489 Turns
__________
Grand Total
Kuwal -1,647,150,379,546
Untrained-9,133,683
Turns-13,019
Cumulative Value- 1,002,791 Turns
Account Value-2,457,798 Turns
Transfer Ratio-40.8 %
**********
this is the information on my Ptr, maybe one of you players that enjoys crunching numbers can do a bit o number crunching & tell me precisely how many turns, or how many of what combination of resources I need to give away to get my Ptr back in the green. a clear, concise, & easy to understand answer to this question would be greatly appreciated.
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Keinutnai Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:09 pm
kingkongfan1 wrote:I have never said my Ptr did not go down; as is quite obvious in my previous post, the main thought behind my post is that for all the growth I have put on this acct the Ptr does not seem to have dropped proportionately imo.Keinutnai wrote:If I raid a couple million UU. I see it positively impacts my PTR value almost immediately. (It takes some time for the PTR to change. Maybe a couple hours or 1 day, but it's clear it improved because of the raiding).
So as a way of putting this Ptr discussion to rest, (at least as far as I am concerned) I present the following information...
**********
Total sent
Kuwal-22,282,954,041,993
Untrained-129,723,634
Turns-287,344
Cumulative Value- 3,251,698 Turn
__________
Total received
Kuwal-20,635,803,662,447
Untrained-120,589,951
Turns-300,363
Cumulative Value- 4,254,489 Turns
__________
Grand Total
Kuwal -1,647,150,379,546
Untrained-9,133,683
Turns-13,019
Cumulative Value- 1,002,791 Turns
Account Value-2,457,798 Turns
Transfer Ratio-40.8 %
**********
this is the information on my Ptr, maybe one of you players that enjoys crunching numbers can do a bit o number crunching & tell me precisely how many turns, or how many of what combination of resources I need to give away to get my Ptr back in the green. a clear, concise, & easy to understand answer to this question would be greatly appreciated.
If you give away a value which is worth the same amount of turns as it was worth (in attack turns) when you got it, then you will have 0 PTR.
If you received 1,000,000 UU in 2009, when 1 AT costed 30 UU, it means you received a value of 33,333 AT.
And if now 1 AT costs 500 UU, you simply have to give away the same value (same value, not the same amount!)
So either give away 33,333 AT or 16,666,666 UU.
Is it easy to understand?
Keinutnai- Aderan Assassin
- Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Special Agent 47 Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:29 pm
How can a person see what things were worth before PTR was instituted and what they are actually going to have to repay now to get back in the green?
This is the reason I have my beliefs about the price of inflation overtaking or atleast slowing the ability of account growth to fix PTR in a adaquit amount of time.This issue does not effect all, but most drasticly effects those who recieved goods before PTR was released and it was known what the conciquinces were.
This is the reason I have my beliefs about the price of inflation overtaking or atleast slowing the ability of account growth to fix PTR in a adaquit amount of time.This issue does not effect all, but most drasticly effects those who recieved goods before PTR was released and it was known what the conciquinces were.
Special Agent 47- Aderan Assassin
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Alliance : [ The_Marauders ]
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Location : Preparing for my next mission.
Registration date : 2009-08-22
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by kingkongfan1 Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:07 pm
Keinutnai wrote:kingkongfan1 wrote:I have never said my Ptr did not go down; as is quite obvious in my previous post, the main thought behind my post is that for all the growth I have put on this acct the Ptr does not seem to have dropped proportionately imo.Keinutnai wrote:If I raid a couple million UU. I see it positively impacts my PTR value almost immediately. (It takes some time for the PTR to change. Maybe a couple hours or 1 day, but it's clear it improved because of the raiding).
So as a way of putting this Ptr discussion to rest, (at least as far as I am concerned) I present the following information...
**********
Total sent
Kuwal-22,282,954,041,993
Untrained-129,723,634
Turns-287,344
Cumulative Value- 3,251,698 Turn
__________
Total received
Kuwal-20,635,803,662,447
Untrained-120,589,951
Turns-300,363
Cumulative Value- 4,254,489 Turns
__________
Grand Total
Kuwal -1,647,150,379,546
Untrained-9,133,683
Turns-13,019
Cumulative Value- 1,002,791 Turns
Account Value-2,457,798 Turns
Transfer Ratio-40.8 %
**********
this is the information on my Ptr, maybe one of you players that enjoys crunching numbers can do a bit o number crunching & tell me precisely how many turns, or how many of what combination of resources I need to give away to get my Ptr back in the green. a clear, concise, & easy to understand answer to this question would be greatly appreciated.
If you give away a value which is worth the same amount of turns as it was worth (in attack turns) when you got it, then you will have 0 PTR.
If you received 1,000,000 UU in 2009, when 1 AT costed 30 UU, it means you received a value of 33,333 AT.
And if now 1 AT costs 500 UU, you simply have to give away the same value (same value, not the same amount!)
So either give away 33,333 AT or 16,666,666 UU.
Is it easy to understand?
easy enough, thanks for the info...
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion
by Manleva Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:13 am
kingkongfan1 wrote:Keinutnai wrote:kingkongfan1 wrote:I have never said my Ptr did not go down; as is quite obvious in my previous post, the main thought behind my post is that for all the growth I have put on this acct the Ptr does not seem to have dropped proportionately imo.Keinutnai wrote:If I raid a couple million UU. I see it positively impacts my PTR value almost immediately. (It takes some time for the PTR to change. Maybe a couple hours or 1 day, but it's clear it improved because of the raiding).
So as a way of putting this Ptr discussion to rest, (at least as far as I am concerned) I present the following information...
**********
Total sent
Kuwal-22,282,954,041,993
Untrained-129,723,634
Turns-287,344
Cumulative Value- 3,251,698 Turn
__________
Total received
Kuwal-20,635,803,662,447
Untrained-120,589,951
Turns-300,363
Cumulative Value- 4,254,489 Turns
__________
Grand Total
Kuwal -1,647,150,379,546
Untrained-9,133,683
Turns-13,019
Cumulative Value- 1,002,791 Turns
Account Value-2,457,798 Turns
Transfer Ratio-40.8 %
**********
this is the information on my Ptr, maybe one of you players that enjoys crunching numbers can do a bit o number crunching & tell me precisely how many turns, or how many of what combination of resources I need to give away to get my Ptr back in the green. a clear, concise, & easy to understand answer to this question would be greatly appreciated.
If you give away a value which is worth the same amount of turns as it was worth (in attack turns) when you got it, then you will have 0 PTR.
If you received 1,000,000 UU in 2009, when 1 AT costed 30 UU, it means you received a value of 33,333 AT.
And if now 1 AT costs 500 UU, you simply have to give away the same value (same value, not the same amount!)
So either give away 33,333 AT or 16,666,666 UU.
Is it easy to understand?
easy enough, thanks for the info...
It sounds simple enough but because you received 1Mill UU in 2009 it will now cost you 16mill UU to balance the books.
If it was fair and balances then giving away the same quantity of the resource that you received should balance the books
Manleva- Aderan Assassin
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