Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Keinutnai on Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:42 am

Manleva wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:If I raid a couple million UU. I see it positively impacts my PTR value almost immediately. (It takes some time for the PTR to change. Maybe a couple hours or 1 day, but it's clear it improved because of the raiding).
I have never said my Ptr did not go down; as is quite obvious in my previous post, the main thought behind my post is that for all the growth I have put on this acct the Ptr does not seem to have dropped proportionately imo.

So as a way of putting this Ptr discussion to rest, (at least as far as I am concerned) I present the following information...

**********
Total sent
Kuwal-22,282,954,041,993
Untrained-129,723,634
Turns-287,344
Cumulative Value- 3,251,698 Turn
__________
Total received
Kuwal-20,635,803,662,447
Untrained-120,589,951
Turns-300,363
Cumulative Value- 4,254,489 Turns
__________
Grand Total
Kuwal -1,647,150,379,546
Untrained-9,133,683
Turns-13,019
Cumulative Value- 1,002,791 Turns
Account Value-2,457,798 Turns
Transfer Ratio-40.8 %
**********
this is the information on my Ptr, maybe one of you players that enjoys crunching numbers can do a bit o number crunching & tell me precisely how many turns, or how many of what combination of resources I need to give away to get my Ptr back in the green. a clear, concise, & easy to understand answer to this question would be greatly appreciated.

If you give away a value which is worth the same amount of turns as it was worth (in attack turns) when you got it, then you will have 0 PTR.

If you received 1,000,000 UU in 2009, when 1 AT costed 30 UU, it means you received a value of 33,333 AT.

And if now 1 AT costs 500 UU, you simply have to give away the same value (same value, not the same amount!)

So either give away 33,333 AT or 16,666,666 UU.

Is it easy to understand?

easy enough, thanks for the info...

It sounds simple enough but because you received 1Mill UU in 2009 it will now cost you 16mill UU to balance the books.

If it was fair and balances then giving away the same quantity of the resource that you received should balance the books

If someone lends you 10,000$, and you repay to him 10,000$ in 50 years, then you ripped him off.

It's the same thing.

Repaying the same quantity works only if you repay AT. AT don't change in value. They are always worth the same, because you can always farm/raid the same percentage of global output with them.

If you think kuwal and UU is worth the same as it was worth a couple years ago, then why don't we make a trade and I buy your UU for 100,000 kuwal? That's what the regular prices was back in 2009. Everyone traded for that price.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by seaborgium on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:16 am

Special Agent 47 wrote:How can a person see what things were worth before PTR was instituted and what they are actually going to have to repay now to get back in the green?

Thats due to admin and his brother deciding what to make things cost. Wink
When admin released PTR he and I had a long talk about it and he said the long/hardest part was what to make things from original trades worth. Due to inflatation.
Had they just started everyone at 0 then there wouldn't be these issues now but hey its there game let them screw over players.(I seem to be saying this about a lot of admins here lately.)

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by kingkongfan1 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:55 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
If someone lends you 10,000$, and you repay to him 10,000$ in 50 years, then you ripped him off.

The above statement is "YOUR" opinion... if bill & jim come to an agreement that bill will loan jim a sum of money in the amount of 10,000$ & in turn jim will repay said loan in the amount of 10,000$ in 50 years then nobody has gotten ripped off. this is a fact as bound by the terms of the agreement between bill & jim, not my opinion.

Manleva wrote:
It sounds simple enough but because you received 1Mill UU in 2009 it will now cost you 16mill UU to balance the books.

If it was fair and balances then giving away the same quantity of the resource that you received should balance the books

my thoughts are the same here; but recently one thing has become quite clear (to me at least), & running the risk of being accused of speaking ill of the game I daresay that "fair & balanced" has taken a flying leap out the window.

seaborgium wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:How can a person see what things were worth before PTR was instituted and what they are actually going to have to repay now to get back in the green?

Thats due to admin and his brother deciding what to make things cost. Wink
When admin released PTR he and I had a long talk about it and he said the long/hardest part was what to make things from original trades worth. Due to inflation.
Had they just started everyone at 0 then there wouldn't be these issues now but hey its there game let them screw over players.(I seem to be saying this about a lot of admins here lately.)

I remember this conversation; or at least parts of it, because I thought at the time that putting inflation in a game was... (I do not know how to finish this sentence without being accused of calling someone a name & potentially getting banned, so I leave it to the reader to finish). I too had the thought that starting every player over at 0 was the best way to go about it when Ptr was released.(seeing as to how it was apparent that some actions were allowed, or that a full & concise explanation was not given as to what consequence certain actions would have on the players accts when Ptr was released). but as has been stated before, admin has a reason for doing things the way he has so the future will prove interesting imo.

To finish up; I will say again, I understand the need for Ptr & ultimately I am not against it. I still think that things should have been does differently plain & simple.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Special Agent 47 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Guys lets be honest here. Any normal loan will cost you. I do not have an issue with that personally. I think the root comes in at the point of inflation and the time involved.

As much as I hate to use Real Life examples, I am going to. My house cost me roughly $100,000. At 7.5% interest. At the end of 30 yrs I will have paid $370,000. Looking at those numbers it is sicking to me to see I have to pay back over 3 and a half times what I have borrowed. But realisticly I am tieing someone elses money up for 30 years, or about half a life time. The situation in real life is even tho I pay back a massive amount more then I borrowed, the amount I pay back is set from the day I borrow it. It never changes. In this game, the amount you have to pay back keeps going up, and up, and up. Maybe there should be some type of cap put in place. If you borrow/accept resources, then once you pay back say 3 to 5 times as much the debt is 0ed out. Not as it is now where the longer it goes the more and more and more you have to pay back. 10, 15, or 20 times what you borrowed is just to much, expecially considering how all this began.

I am fine with PTR and how it works, just wish it had been in place from launch, or atleast not put in the game retroactively.


*****Edit*****
After sitting around thinking about this I remembered a discussion from a long time ago. I ask about inflation and how to overcome it and was told basic account growth would do it. Now that that has come under fire again I have to ask again. If in 2009 an account got 1 mill men but now must pay back 16 mill men,,, who do they need to give 16 mill men to? Would 16 mill men not ruin the PTR of anothers account? So if 1 mill men are given to 16 different people in 3 yrs would those 16 people not have to give away 16 mill each or 256 mill men?

Guess what I am getting at is it seems to be a never ending circle here. Giving funds to an active account means sooner or later its got to give funds away. With the playerbase smaller then it once was its causing issues. Would be nice if we had a way to just dispose of resources. Possibly a one sided trade to the GM or to the Admin account. Seems to me to fix your PTR you have to ruin someone elses.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by kingkongfan1 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Special Agent 47 wrote:Guys lets be honest here. Any normal loan will cost you. I do not have an issue with that personally. I think the root comes in at the point of inflation and the time involved.

As much as I hate to use Real Life examples, I am going to. My house cost me roughly $100,000. At 7.5% interest. At the end of 30 yrs I will have paid $370,000. Looking at those numbers it is sicking to me to see I have to pay back over 3 and a half times what I have borrowed. But realisticly I am tieing someone elses money up for 30 years, or about half a life time. The situation in real life is even tho I pay back a massive amount more then I borrowed, the amount I pay back is set from the day I borrow it. It never changes. In this game, the amount you have to pay back keeps going up, and up, and up. Maybe there should be some type of cap put in place. If you borrow/accept resources, then once you pay back say 3 to 5 times as much the debt is 0ed out. Not as it is now where the longer it goes the more and more and more you have to pay back. 10, 15, or 20 times what you borrowed is just to much, expecially considering how all this began.

I am fine with PTR and how it works, just wish it had been in place from launch, or atleast not put in the game retroactively.


*****Edit*****
After sitting around thinking about this I remembered a discussion from a long time ago. I ask about inflation and how to overcome it and was told basic account growth would do it. Now that that has come under fire again I have to ask again. If in 2009 an account got 1 mill men but now must pay back 16 mill men,,, who do they need to give 16 mill men to? Would 16 mill men not ruin the PTR of anothers account? So if 1 mill men are given to 16 different people in 3 yrs would those 16 people not have to give away 16 mill each or 256 mill men?

Guess what I am getting at is it seems to be a never ending circle here. Giving funds to an active account means sooner or later its got to give funds away. With the playerbase smaller then it once was its causing issues. Would be nice if we had a way to just dispose of resources. Possibly a one sided trade to the GM or to the Admin account. Seems to me to fix your PTR you have to ruin someone elses.

well in the 10 months I have had this acct, I have been unable to trade due to the Ptr on this acct. I have "grown" this acct by 35,000,000 TP & increased the UP from 50,000 to 80,000 & managed to only move the Ptr from 49% to 41.28% I just gave away 10,500 AT's to drop the Ptr to 40.8% so if I cannot find anyone to take any other donations from me in an attempt to get my Ptr back into the green, then how much more do I have to "grow" my acct to get into the "green"?

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Keinutnai on Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:20 am

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:Guys lets be honest here. Any normal loan will cost you. I do not have an issue with that personally. I think the root comes in at the point of inflation and the time involved.

As much as I hate to use Real Life examples, I am going to. My house cost me roughly $100,000. At 7.5% interest. At the end of 30 yrs I will have paid $370,000. Looking at those numbers it is sicking to me to see I have to pay back over 3 and a half times what I have borrowed. But realisticly I am tieing someone elses money up for 30 years, or about half a life time. The situation in real life is even tho I pay back a massive amount more then I borrowed, the amount I pay back is set from the day I borrow it. It never changes. In this game, the amount you have to pay back keeps going up, and up, and up. Maybe there should be some type of cap put in place. If you borrow/accept resources, then once you pay back say 3 to 5 times as much the debt is 0ed out. Not as it is now where the longer it goes the more and more and more you have to pay back. 10, 15, or 20 times what you borrowed is just to much, expecially considering how all this began.

I am fine with PTR and how it works, just wish it had been in place from launch, or atleast not put in the game retroactively.


*****Edit*****
After sitting around thinking about this I remembered a discussion from a long time ago. I ask about inflation and how to overcome it and was told basic account growth would do it. Now that that has come under fire again I have to ask again. If in 2009 an account got 1 mill men but now must pay back 16 mill men,,, who do they need to give 16 mill men to? Would 16 mill men not ruin the PTR of anothers account? So if 1 mill men are given to 16 different people in 3 yrs would those 16 people not have to give away 16 mill each or 256 mill men?

Guess what I am getting at is it seems to be a never ending circle here. Giving funds to an active account means sooner or later its got to give funds away. With the playerbase smaller then it once was its causing issues. Would be nice if we had a way to just dispose of resources. Possibly a one sided trade to the GM or to the Admin account. Seems to me to fix your PTR you have to ruin someone elses.

well in the 10 months I have had this acct, I have been unable to trade due to the Ptr on this acct. I have "grown" this acct by 35,000,000 TP & increased the UP from 50,000 to 80,000 & managed to only move the Ptr from 49% to 41.28% I just gave away 10,500 AT's to drop the Ptr to 40.8% so if I cannot find anyone to take any other donations from me in an attempt to get my Ptr back into the green, then how much more do I have to "grow" my acct to get into the "green"?

I suggest you trade normally. It will have almost no influence on your PTR.
And from 49% to 41% is a big achievement. It's much harder to move from 49% to 41% than from 19% to 11%. Especially for players with big account values.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:52 am

Keinutnai wrote:
I suggest you trade normally. It will have almost no influence on your PTR.
I appreciate your answer, but it doesn't answer my question. secondly you do not seem to understand that I am trying to get the Ptr on this acct into the "green" & as low as possible. there are few enough players buying accts now as it is, nobody in their right mind would buy one to play with a Ptr at 40.8%
And from 49% to 41% is a big achievement. It's much harder to move from 49% to 41% than from 19% to 11%. Especially for players with big account values.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Special Agent 47 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:24 am

Keinutnai wrote: It's much harder to move from 49% to 41% than from 19% to 11%. Especially for players with big account values.

Please elaborate on this.

I ask because in my experiance thus far it is easier to move your PTR the further up you are, and the decrease slows the closer you get to green.


Anyone else want to express their experiance with it?

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by mental on Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:47 am

Well personally 30%-20% was easily corrected but once I got below 20% it takes months.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Keinutnai on Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:35 pm

My reasoning is that when your PTR is higher, then it means you recieved more resources than with a smaller PTR, thus you need to make a bigger change in resources to change by 1% with higher PTR.

Example:
Both players had an account value of 1000 prior to getting resources. A got 1000 AT, B got 200 AT.

Player A
Total account value: 2000 Turns
Received 1000 Turns
PTR: 50%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 47.4%
Fell by 2.6%

Player B
Total account value: 1200 Turns
Received 200 Turns
PTR: 16.6%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 9.1%
Fell by 7.5%


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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Steveanaya on Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:00 pm

I would gladly take any resources Smile

My acc is In the negative red ATM. It's about -26%

So feel free to correct your Ptr with me Very Happy

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Special Agent 47 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:43 am

Keinutnai wrote:My reasoning is that when your PTR is higher, then it means you recieved more resources than with a smaller PTR, thus you need to make a bigger change in resources to change by 1% with higher PTR.

Example:
Both players had an account value of 1000 prior to getting resources. A got 1000 AT, B got 200 AT.

Player A
Total account value: 2000 Turns
Received 1000 Turns
PTR: 50%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 47.4%
Fell by 2.6%

Player B
Total account value: 1200 Turns
Received 200 Turns
PTR: 16.6%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 9.1%
Fell by 7.5%


You seem to have forgotten to add inflation.

I again think its the time involved and the amount of inflation that is the deciding factor. If you borrow and repay in a few days it drasticly effects PTR. If your trying to repay something from before PTR was released it will not be the case since you have to pay back 10, 15, 20, or more times the amount recieved. I'm willing to bet some accounts could pay back "everything recieved" and it not move their PTR 1 %.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Keinutnai on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:48 pm

Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:My reasoning is that when your PTR is higher, then it means you recieved more resources than with a smaller PTR, thus you need to make a bigger change in resources to change by 1% with higher PTR.

Example:
Both players had an account value of 1000 prior to getting resources. A got 1000 AT, B got 200 AT.

Player A
Total account value: 2000 Turns
Received 1000 Turns
PTR: 50%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 47.4%
Fell by 2.6%

Player B
Total account value: 1200 Turns
Received 200 Turns
PTR: 16.6%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 9.1%
Fell by 7.5%


You seem to have forgotten to add inflation.

I again think its the time involved and the amount of inflation that is the deciding factor. If you borrow and repay in a few days it drasticly effects PTR. If your trying to repay something from before PTR was released it will not be the case since you have to pay back 10, 15, 20, or more times the amount recieved. I'm willing to bet some accounts could pay back "everything recieved" and it not move their PTR 1 %.

Inflation affects only kuwal and UU. AT doesn't suffer from inflation. AT can be compared to the amount of hours each person has. Every day you get 24 hours you can distribute the way you want. In the past you had 24 hours per day and in the future it will always be 24 hours per person per day.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Steveanaya on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:00 pm

Actually in the past it was more like 12 hours. Because we used to only produce 1 AT per turn. If we still only produced 48 AT's daily the price of AT would be higher.

We might have an update in the future where we get 3 AT's per turn, and that will be like having 36 hours.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Special Agent 47 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:56 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
Spoiler:
Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:My reasoning is that when your PTR is higher, then it means you recieved more resources than with a smaller PTR, thus you need to make a bigger change in resources to change by 1% with higher PTR.

Example:
Both players had an account value of 1000 prior to getting resources. A got 1000 AT, B got 200 AT.

Player A
Total account value: 2000 Turns
Received 1000 Turns
PTR: 50%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 47.4%
Fell by 2.6%

Player B
Total account value: 1200 Turns
Received 200 Turns
PTR: 16.6%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 9.1%
Fell by 7.5%


You seem to have forgotten to add inflation.

I again think its the time involved and the amount of inflation that is the deciding factor. If you borrow and repay in a few days it drasticly effects PTR. If your trying to repay something from before PTR was released it will not be the case since you have to pay back 10, 15, 20, or more times the amount recieved. I'm willing to bet some accounts could pay back "everything recieved" and it not move their PTR 1 %.

Inflation affects only kuwal and UU. AT doesn't suffer from inflation. AT can be compared to the amount of hours each person has. Every day you get 24 hours you can distribute the way you want. In the past you had 24 hours per day and in the future it will always be 24 hours per person per day.

Not sure if your trying to be difficult or if what your trying to say just isnt getting through. If (I do not know the real rates, just throwing a number) if you have to pay back 20 times as much as you recieved, you have to pay back 20 times as much no matter if its paid in 1 resource or another. Using AT does not mean you pay less then if you pay in UU or Kewal.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Keinutnai on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:51 am

Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:
Spoiler:
Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:My reasoning is that when your PTR is higher, then it means you recieved more resources than with a smaller PTR, thus you need to make a bigger change in resources to change by 1% with higher PTR.

Example:
Both players had an account value of 1000 prior to getting resources. A got 1000 AT, B got 200 AT.

Player A
Total account value: 2000 Turns
Received 1000 Turns
PTR: 50%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 47.4%
Fell by 2.6%

Player B
Total account value: 1200 Turns
Received 200 Turns
PTR: 16.6%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 9.1%
Fell by 7.5%


You seem to have forgotten to add inflation.

I again think its the time involved and the amount of inflation that is the deciding factor. If you borrow and repay in a few days it drasticly effects PTR. If your trying to repay something from before PTR was released it will not be the case since you have to pay back 10, 15, 20, or more times the amount recieved. I'm willing to bet some accounts could pay back "everything recieved" and it not move their PTR 1 %.

Inflation affects only kuwal and UU. AT doesn't suffer from inflation. AT can be compared to the amount of hours each person has. Every day you get 24 hours you can distribute the way you want. In the past you had 24 hours per day and in the future it will always be 24 hours per person per day.

Not sure if your trying to be difficult or if what your trying to say just isnt getting through. If (I do not know the real rates, just throwing a number) if you have to pay back 20 times as much as you recieved, you have to pay back 20 times as much no matter if its paid in 1 resource or another. Using AT does not mean you pay less then if you pay in UU or Kewal.

The statement I marked green is correct, the statement in red is incorrect.

What matters are not amounts, but values!

You have to pay back the same value. Value is the most important word here.
The value of AT never changes. It is always worth the same. That's why you only need to pay back the same amount of AT.
1 UU and 1 kuwal loses value over time. That's why you have to pay back more UU or kuwal in the future.

I dont think I can explain this in an easier way. I think it's as straightforward as it gets.

@steveanaya
You are right. When AT production doubled. That is the moment when AT experienced an inflation. It caused a 100% one time inflation of AT, halving it's value. However since all PTR is recorded in AT, the most inflation resistant resource, the amounts you have to repay to get to 0 PTR (if you have a positive PTR) were not doubled, making it actually easier to repay.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Special Agent 47 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:35 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:
Spoiler:
Special Agent 47 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:My reasoning is that when your PTR is higher, then it means you recieved more resources than with a smaller PTR, thus you need to make a bigger change in resources to change by 1% with higher PTR.

Example:
Both players had an account value of 1000 prior to getting resources. A got 1000 AT, B got 200 AT.

Player A
Total account value: 2000 Turns
Received 1000 Turns
PTR: 50%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 47.4%
Fell by 2.6%

Player B
Total account value: 1200 Turns
Received 200 Turns
PTR: 16.6%

If you pay back 100 Turns your PTR will fall to: 9.1%
Fell by 7.5%


You seem to have forgotten to add inflation.

I again think its the time involved and the amount of inflation that is the deciding factor. If you borrow and repay in a few days it drasticly effects PTR. If your trying to repay something from before PTR was released it will not be the case since you have to pay back 10, 15, 20, or more times the amount recieved. I'm willing to bet some accounts could pay back "everything recieved" and it not move their PTR 1 %.

Inflation affects only kuwal and UU. AT doesn't suffer from inflation. AT can be compared to the amount of hours each person has. Every day you get 24 hours you can distribute the way you want. In the past you had 24 hours per day and in the future it will always be 24 hours per person per day.

Not sure if your trying to be difficult or if what your trying to say just isnt getting through. If (I do not know the real rates, just throwing a number) if you have to pay back 20 times as much as you recieved, you have to pay back 20 times as much no matter if its paid in 1 resource or another. Using AT does not mean you pay less then if you pay in UU or Kewal.

The statement I marked green is correct, the statement in red is incorrect.

What matters are not amounts, but values!

You have to pay back the same value. Value is the most important word here.
The value of AT never changes. It is always worth the same. That's why you only need to pay back the same amount of AT.
1 UU and 1 kuwal loses value over time. That's why you have to pay back more UU or kuwal in the future.

I dont think I can explain this in an easier way. I think it's as straightforward as it gets.

@steveanaya
You are right. When AT production doubled. That is the moment when AT experienced an inflation. It caused a 100% one time inflation of AT, halving it's value. However since all PTR is recorded in AT, the most inflation resistant resource, the amounts you have to repay to get to 0 PTR (if you have a positive PTR) were not doubled, making it actually easier to repay.

Ok, the part in red is 1/2 of a sentence. You have to highlight the rest of it or it is an incomplete or partial thought. I assume the rest was suppose to be highlighted.

I am still not understanding what you are trying to say, so please if anyone else can take a stabb at it and possibly word it differently so that maybe I can get it? I'll explain why I do not get it and maybe that will help. While I understand that AT holds its value better, I also see even you agree its value changes because you list is as "The most inflation resistant" and not "immune to inflation". I honestly can not see how you can say the value of AT never changes. I also can not see how you say you have to pay back the same amount as you received. The only way I can look at it and see that as correct is if you look at just AT by themselves. No other resource considered. In that regard you are correct, but where the confusion comes into play is from other resources converted to AT or AT converted to other resources.

My PTR states There is a difference of about 91K AT on my account, but my total account value versus accumulative account value is off by about 600K AT. So where your statement loses me is when you say all I have to do is repay my AT to get green but I am 19K AT to the good with an overall account value that is -600K AT. So I can not understand what you are saying.

If you have to repay more UU then you got, then you have to repay more AT then you would have in the past, to get the same result. Same with Kewal. Therefore to me your statement is incorrect.

Anyone else understand what I am saying?


As to my point of inflation overtaking account growth, it says I need to give away more UU then I even have on my account, which to me goes to bolster my reasoning that it is possible for inflation to outpace account growth.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by kingkongfan1 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:55 pm

Ok, against my better judgement I am going to take a stab at this. I think that both of you are saying the same thing. see my example below...
first, I think that your complete thought was... if you have to pay back 20 times as much as you received, you have to pay back 20 times as much no matter if its paid in 1 resource or another.

did I get it right?

Keinutnai wrote:
If you give away a value which is worth the same amount of turns as it was worth (in attack turns) when you got it, then you will have 0 PTR.

If you received 1,000,000 UU in 2009, when 1 AT costed 30 UU, it means you received a value of 33,333 AT.

And if now 1 AT costs 500 UU, you simply have to give away the same value (same value, not the same amount!)

So either give away 33,333 AT or 16,666,666 UU.

Is it easy to understand?

on the GM right now...

Average Rates (last 7 days)

1 Untrained = 369,293 Kuwal

1 Attack Turn = 204,035,470 Kuwal

1 Attack Turn = 559 Untrained
**********

33,333 AT's = 6,801,114,321,510

16,666,666 UU = 6,154,883,087,138

So to decrease my Ptr I can either give away 33,333 AT, or 16,666,666 UU, or 6,801,114,321,510 kuwal as either of the 3 will get the job done.

but this is what has me confused. 1 AT cost 30 UU in 2009. in 2012 1 AT cost 559 UU so it would appear to me that AT are just as susceptible to inflation as kuwal or UU. but then again what do I know


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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Gamniac on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:58 pm

Little confusion on my side:
I always thought turn value meant how much of your income is being sent, so if I send out 100 turns worth in kuwal, it would take me 100 turns to get that much kuwal. By the looks of it, turn value actually means value in AT.
This might mean that AT value is linked to kuwal and UU values.

I'm going to think out loud here to see if I understand AW Economy (and to see if I paid attention in Economics class).
I'll probably get lost halfway through my own explanation, so you have been warned if the following doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Basically, one can only trade kuwal, UU and AT (also Gold, but I'll leave that out for simplicity's sake and you can't trade it through the GM anyway).
These three resources are traded out for one another.
As a result, their values can be expressed in one another (for example: 1 AT is 1000 kuwal or 100 UU and 1 UU is 1/100 AT or 10 kuwal).
If someone pays a lot of kuwal for AT, the AT value increases compared to kuwal value. Since UU is sitting neutral in this example, it's value is more or less stable, so kuwal value decreases in UU, while AT value rises in UU.

In another sense, if people are paying very high kuwal prices for UU, it's value will increase compared to AT, especially if the AT value drops by people paying dirt for turns, thus causing an inflation for AT and a massive deflation (or whatever the word is) for kuwal. Meanwhile, UU value drops in to kuwal, but increases in to AT.

Now, if we link that to the PTR, which is expressed in turns, this would mean that, if AT values drop (for instance, through the method I described above), Kuwal and UU would become a better bet for repairing PTR, making it cheaper if you pay out in kuwal and UU compared to the current situation.
As I understand, there have been some measures to prevent people from playing the market, but if someone or some people are willing to suffer a loss on the market, it could be possible to plummet AT values. Just spit-balling here, you understand.

I guess this is as far as all the others have gotten by now, just trying to see if I correctly understand the whole lot so far.

I also think admin might better have set all PTRs to 0 when he implemented the system. Would've saved an awful lot of fuss and muss. Bit late for that now, though...

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by kingkongfan1 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:03 pm

Gamniac wrote:Little confusion on my side:
I always thought turn value meant how much of your income is being sent, so if I send out 100 turns worth in kuwal, it would take me 100 turns to get that much kuwal. By the looks of it, turn value actually means value in AT.
This might mean that AT value is linked to kuwal and UU values.

I'm going to think out loud here to see if I understand AW Economy (and to see if I paid attention in Economics class).
I'll probably get lost halfway through my own explanation, so you have been warned if the following doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Basically, one can only trade kuwal, UU and AT (also Gold, but I'll leave that out for simplicity's sake and you can't trade it through the GM anyway).
These three resources are traded out for one another.
As a result, their values can be expressed in one another (for example: 1 AT is 1000 kuwal or 100 UU and 1 UU is 1/100 AT or 10 kuwal).
If someone pays a lot of kuwal for AT, the AT value increases compared to kuwal value. Since UU is sitting neutral in this example, it's value is more or less stable, so kuwal value decreases in UU, while AT value rises in UU.

In another sense, if people are paying very high kuwal prices for UU, it's value will increase compared to AT, especially if the AT value drops by people paying dirt for turns, thus causing an inflation for AT and a massive deflation (or whatever the word is) for kuwal. Meanwhile, UU value drops in to kuwal, but increases in to AT.

Now, if we link that to the PTR, which is expressed in turns, this would mean that, if AT values drop (for instance, through the method I described above), Kuwal and UU would become a better bet for repairing PTR, making it cheaper if you pay out in kuwal and UU compared to the current situation.
As I understand, there have been some measures to prevent people from playing the market, but if someone or some people are willing to suffer a loss on the market, it could be possible to plummet AT values. Just spit-balling here, you understand.

I guess this is as far as all the others have gotten by now, just trying to see if I correctly understand the whole lot so far.

I also think admin might better have set all PTRs to 0 when he implemented the system. Would've saved an awful lot of fuss and muss. Bit late for that now, though...

As best as I can understand, (& admittedly I understand very little) you have it mostly correct. the thing to remember is the inflation. the difference in what an AT cost in 2009 & what an AT costs today.
Keinutnai wrote:
If you received 1,000,000 UU in 2009, when 1 AT costed 30 UU, it means you received a value of 33,333 AT.

And if now 1 AT costs 500 UU, you simply have to give away the same value (same value, not the same amount!)

So either give away 33,333 AT or 16,666,666 UU.

Is it easy to understand?
It has become painfully obvious that anyone that takes a loan from someone else needs to pay it back rather quickly to avoid having to pay back more over time due to inflation. also I would suggest that anyone looking to purchase another players acct would need to take a careful look at the Ptr/ratio page to fully understand what they are buying.


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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

Post by Special Agent 47 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:41 pm

Gamniac wrote:Little confusion on my side:
I always thought turn value meant how much of your income is being sent, so if I send out 100 turns worth in kuwal, it would take me 100 turns to get that much kuwal. By the looks of it, turn value actually means value in AT.
This might mean that AT value is linked to kuwal and UU values.

I'm going to think out loud here to see if I understand AW Economy (and to see if I paid attention in Economics class).
I'll probably get lost halfway through my own explanation, so you have been warned if the following doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Basically, one can only trade kuwal, UU and AT (also Gold, but I'll leave that out for simplicity's sake and you can't trade it through the GM anyway).
These three resources are traded out for one another.
As a result, their values can be expressed in one another (for example: 1 AT is 1000 kuwal or 100 UU and 1 UU is 1/100 AT or 10 kuwal).
If someone pays a lot of kuwal for AT, the AT value increases compared to kuwal value. Since UU is sitting neutral in this example, it's value is more or less stable, so kuwal value decreases in UU, while AT value rises in UU.

In another sense, if people are paying very high kuwal prices for UU, it's value will increase compared to AT, especially if the AT value drops by people paying dirt for turns, thus causing an inflation for AT and a massive deflation (or whatever the word is) for kuwal. Meanwhile, UU value drops in to kuwal, but increases in to AT.

Now, if we link that to the PTR, which is expressed in turns, this would mean that, if AT values drop (for instance, through the method I described above), Kuwal and UU would become a better bet for repairing PTR, making it cheaper if you pay out in kuwal and UU compared to the current situation.
As I understand, there have been some measures to prevent people from playing the market, but if someone or some people are willing to suffer a loss on the market, it could be possible to plummet AT values. Just spit-balling here, you understand.

I guess this is as far as all the others have gotten by now, just trying to see if I correctly understand the whole lot so far.

I also think admin might better have set all PTRs to 0 when he implemented the system. Would've saved an awful lot of fuss and muss. Bit late for that now, though...

I think your first part is wrong. Turn value has nothing to do with turn income (tho I may be completely wrong on that)

As for the last part, the reason it was not 0ed upon release is very simple and being one of the ones most effected by it I still agree what he did was the correct thing to do. It was made retroactive because some accounts had received a very large amount of resources. If he started everyone out at 0 these few accounts would in effect have cheated the system and would have been given a lead no other account in the game could cover. Then that "lead" would be complained about from that point on and accounts accused of having and using a free cheat. At the time it was encouraged that simple steady and strong account growth could eventually overcome the PTR. 3 yrs later and most have not been able to even 1/2 way correct their PTR with aggressive account growth. It was promised by Admin 2 maybe 3 times that PTR would be somehow addressed but that has never happened either. While the best system would have been to have PTR active from the beginning, but as it stands I feel the only fair way to do it was making it retroactive. My issues now are the way it appears to be very viscous never ending cycle. To correct my PTR I have to find 130 trade partners and use up there 5,000 AT buffer, or I have to ruin another persons PTR. Multiply this by the amount of accounts trying to fix there PTR and there are not enough accounts in the game. Add in inflation and a shrinking player base and its just getting worse and worse.

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Re: Galactic Market + Trading Discussion

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