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Log in''A man walks into a bar,,,
+11
stars
Kingofshinobis1
Nimras
kingkongfan1
JadeFire
Kenzu
ian
buhcoreTheGreat
Beldar
pxn
curumo
15 posters
Page 1 of 2
Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2 
''A man walks into a bar,,,
by curumo Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:59 am
... and looks around. He's looking for something. A forum post with a few answers, but he can't see it. He decides to get them himself.''
So I'll play a wild card here (and I'm actually chuckling while i write this lol) - if I assume that my whole page of assaults from WR was an accident (lol), will you repay my losses cause of hostile actions?
Ok no, seriously.
WR just joined in helping their brothers in Muj against da big bad wolves from TIE.
So Kenzu, what's your side of this story?
So I'll play a wild card here (and I'm actually chuckling while i write this lol) - if I assume that my whole page of assaults from WR was an accident (lol), will you repay my losses cause of hostile actions?
Ok no, seriously.
WR just joined in helping their brothers in Muj against da big bad wolves from TIE.
So Kenzu, what's your side of this story?
curumo- Aderan Miner
- Number of posts : 335
Registration date : 2008-08-22
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by pxn Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:32 am
what? no declaration of war?
those assaults on me must be misclicks too!
those assaults on me must be misclicks too!
pxn- Mercenary
- Number of posts : 21
Registration date : 2009-01-09
Beldar- Aderan Farmer
- Alliance : I dunno :p
Age : 41
Number of posts : 72
Location : Athens, Greece
Registration date : 2010-06-08
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by buhcoreTheGreat Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:40 pm
why do we need 4? topics about 1 war
buhcoreTheGreat- Aderan Miner
- ID :
664
Age : 30
Number of posts : 340
Location : Slovenia
Registration date : 2009-06-20 -
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by curumo Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:01 pm
Because at that point there was no TIE vs WR war and i was waiting for Kenzu to make a post - a common courtesy after you declare war upon someone, wouldn't you agree?
curumo- Aderan Miner
- Number of posts : 335
Registration date : 2008-08-22
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by ian Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:55 pm
lol, I find it entertaining that apparently every time a T.O.C alliance gets into a war with T.I.E they apparently need to bring 3+ to 1 odds against us.... and even then, are not actually able to beat us but more bury us with too many targets and force a ceasefire that way.
ian- Coalition Officer
- Alliance : You get 3 guesses as to which one
Age : 34
Number of posts : 1180
Registration date : 2009-04-21
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by Kenzu Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:05 pm
I think it's known to everyone that Mujengan has a mutual defense pact with World Republic. World Republic honors its promises and will always defend its allies if attacked by hostile forces.
It is clear that a personal war which was started by R0B3RT against stars has led to an alliance war which was started by Imperium against Mujengan.
Making smog and all of Mujengan responsible for having a member who would one day start a personal war with stars that erupted on some other game and spilled over to Aderan Wars and starting an alliance war because of that was not right, especially because it's not that hard to place a spy in a hostile alliance and order him to attack an alliance to give a reason for war. As a rule, alliances are unlikely to compensate for members who they believe have betrayed them, and R0B3RT is a betrayer of Mujengan.
Another reason why this is wrong is that the policy change was made retroactively:
Until now, always when a member in an alliance screwed up he had 2 possibilities, either pay compensation or be massed, and it wouldn't become an alliance war unless the alliance provided protection for him. Smog made it clear that Robert was wrong and it was planned that Robert will pay compensation. If Robert wouldnt pay compensation, Mujengan would let Imperium mass him. This is how it always was, and I don't find it acceptable that Imperium changed its policy retroactively, and consider this to be merely a poor excuse to start a war.
It was in no way Smogs fault that Robert massed stars, and there was no way how Smog could have prevented it.
At the same time a policy to make responsible and to force alliance leaders to pay compensation for alliance members who stopped listening to them, or betrayed them will not prevent this from happening. This would only help, if the alliance leader was organising the attacks, but if he really did organise them, then he could order an alliance member to leave the alliance for a week or month and then order it to attack, or ask the alliance member to join a different alliance to attack.
In any case the policy will not prevent betrayers to attack other alliances, and those who want to harm other alliances on purpose can find loopholes in this policy, in other words the policy is useless as it doesnt protect the alliance (Imperium) from these kind of attacks at all, only leads to escalation.
We also believe that Imperium should have negotiated with Mujengan much longer, in a rational way without emotions trying to prevent escalation. Imperium has done the opposite being too stubborn for a complromise and decided to start an alliance war because of this. Forthermore it was obvious that a war will not solve this problem.
My question is, what do you want to achieve with this war? If you hoped that stars can get his kuwal back, then this has obviously backfired.
And how high were the losses of stars? Robert has done a minisab, and deleted his account. Mujengan lost a lot of power by losing this member, Imperium lost almost nothing. You probably wanted that Mujengan pays 50 billion compensation, but now what? The war has only started and Imperium has lost TRILLIONS. It was not worth it for Imperium.
If you say the war started because Mujengan didnt pay compensation for a betrayers sabs then I will not believe you. It looks more like Imperium was looking for a reason to start a war. You know, if you really want to fight a war, then why don't you just say it? Be honest for once.
I find this attitude really bad, but if you simply started a war and said that it's because you would like some gentlemans war, then it would make you look much better in my eyes than now.
And again Imperium fighting against Mujengan is extremely unfair don't you think? But with World Republic it becomes less unfair. After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan.
This endless wars Imperium starts are a curse to Imperium. And your alliance is falling apart and weakening after each war. In the first Imperium-WR war, you were 3 times stronger than us, had 3 times more population than us. In the 3rd war you fought, the first TOC-TIE war, which you started to maintain your domination over Aderan Wars has led to your demise as a dominating superpower and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan. And now you are in a war again, which you have started once again.
The Marauders will be the clear winners in the TOC-TIE war, and I am ok with that.
Why? Because instead of using aggressive and arrogant politics like Imperium, they are much more reasonable than most alliances here. I hold Seaborgium in high regard, and it's no secret that he is a much better leader than you are ian. He doesn't start wars and his alliance fights only if they are forced to. So remember, When this war ends, there will be only one winner and it will be The Marauders. They will become the dominating superpower on Aderan Wars!
It is clear that a personal war which was started by R0B3RT against stars has led to an alliance war which was started by Imperium against Mujengan.
Making smog and all of Mujengan responsible for having a member who would one day start a personal war with stars that erupted on some other game and spilled over to Aderan Wars and starting an alliance war because of that was not right, especially because it's not that hard to place a spy in a hostile alliance and order him to attack an alliance to give a reason for war. As a rule, alliances are unlikely to compensate for members who they believe have betrayed them, and R0B3RT is a betrayer of Mujengan.
Another reason why this is wrong is that the policy change was made retroactively:
Until now, always when a member in an alliance screwed up he had 2 possibilities, either pay compensation or be massed, and it wouldn't become an alliance war unless the alliance provided protection for him. Smog made it clear that Robert was wrong and it was planned that Robert will pay compensation. If Robert wouldnt pay compensation, Mujengan would let Imperium mass him. This is how it always was, and I don't find it acceptable that Imperium changed its policy retroactively, and consider this to be merely a poor excuse to start a war.
It was in no way Smogs fault that Robert massed stars, and there was no way how Smog could have prevented it.
At the same time a policy to make responsible and to force alliance leaders to pay compensation for alliance members who stopped listening to them, or betrayed them will not prevent this from happening. This would only help, if the alliance leader was organising the attacks, but if he really did organise them, then he could order an alliance member to leave the alliance for a week or month and then order it to attack, or ask the alliance member to join a different alliance to attack.
In any case the policy will not prevent betrayers to attack other alliances, and those who want to harm other alliances on purpose can find loopholes in this policy, in other words the policy is useless as it doesnt protect the alliance (Imperium) from these kind of attacks at all, only leads to escalation.
We also believe that Imperium should have negotiated with Mujengan much longer, in a rational way without emotions trying to prevent escalation. Imperium has done the opposite being too stubborn for a complromise and decided to start an alliance war because of this. Forthermore it was obvious that a war will not solve this problem.
My question is, what do you want to achieve with this war? If you hoped that stars can get his kuwal back, then this has obviously backfired.
And how high were the losses of stars? Robert has done a minisab, and deleted his account. Mujengan lost a lot of power by losing this member, Imperium lost almost nothing. You probably wanted that Mujengan pays 50 billion compensation, but now what? The war has only started and Imperium has lost TRILLIONS. It was not worth it for Imperium.
If you say the war started because Mujengan didnt pay compensation for a betrayers sabs then I will not believe you. It looks more like Imperium was looking for a reason to start a war. You know, if you really want to fight a war, then why don't you just say it? Be honest for once.
I find this attitude really bad, but if you simply started a war and said that it's because you would like some gentlemans war, then it would make you look much better in my eyes than now.
And again Imperium fighting against Mujengan is extremely unfair don't you think? But with World Republic it becomes less unfair. After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan.
This endless wars Imperium starts are a curse to Imperium. And your alliance is falling apart and weakening after each war. In the first Imperium-WR war, you were 3 times stronger than us, had 3 times more population than us. In the 3rd war you fought, the first TOC-TIE war, which you started to maintain your domination over Aderan Wars has led to your demise as a dominating superpower and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan. And now you are in a war again, which you have started once again.
The Marauders will be the clear winners in the TOC-TIE war, and I am ok with that.
Why? Because instead of using aggressive and arrogant politics like Imperium, they are much more reasonable than most alliances here. I hold Seaborgium in high regard, and it's no secret that he is a much better leader than you are ian. He doesn't start wars and his alliance fights only if they are forced to. So remember, When this war ends, there will be only one winner and it will be The Marauders. They will become the dominating superpower on Aderan Wars!
Kenzu- Alliance Leader
- Age : 37
Number of posts : 3034
Registration date : 2008-12-03
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by JadeFire Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:19 pm
Kenu tell me why do you hate TiE so much? Is it cause you cant defeat them on your own? Is it cause you want to be like us? Im just wondering cause since I been at this game you seem to really have some hate in your blood for TiE. Please enlighten me 
JadeFire- Aderan Miner
- ID : 836
Number of posts : 243
Location : USA
Registration date : 2009-08-01 -
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by kingkongfan1 Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:27 pm
- Spoiler:
- Kenzu wrote:I think it's known to everyone that Mujengan has a mutual defense pact with World Republic. World Republic honors its promises and will always defend its allies if attacked by hostile forces.
It is clear that a personal war which was started by R0B3RT against stars has led to an alliance war which was started by Imperium against Mujengan.
Making smog and all of Mujengan responsible for having a member who would one day start a personal war with stars that erupted on some other game and spilled over to Aderan Wars and starting an alliance war because of that was not right, especially because it's not that hard to place a spy in a hostile alliance and order him to attack an alliance to give a reason for war. As a rule, alliances are unlikely to compensate for members who they believe have betrayed them, and R0B3RT is a betrayer of Mujengan.
Another reason why this is wrong is that the policy change was made retroactively:
Until now, always when a member in an alliance screwed up he had 2 possibilities, either pay compensation or be massed, and it wouldn't become an alliance war unless the alliance provided protection for him. Smog made it clear that Robert was wrong and it was planned that Robert will pay compensation. If Robert wouldnt pay compensation, Mujengan would let Imperium mass him. This is how it always was, and I don't find it acceptable that Imperium changed its policy retroactively, and consider this to be merely a poor excuse to start a war.
It was in no way Smogs fault that Robert massed stars, and there was no way how Smog could have prevented it.
At the same time a policy to make responsible and to force alliance leaders to pay compensation for alliance members who stopped listening to them, or betrayed them will not prevent this from happening. This would only help, if the alliance leader was organising the attacks, but if he really did organise them, then he could order an alliance member to leave the alliance for a week or month and then order it to attack, or ask the alliance member to join a different alliance to attack.
In any case the policy will not prevent betrayers to attack other alliances, and those who want to harm other alliances on purpose can find loopholes in this policy, in other words the policy is useless as it doesnt protect the alliance (Imperium) from these kind of attacks at all, only leads to escalation.
We also believe that Imperium should have negotiated with Mujengan much longer, in a rational way without emotions trying to prevent escalation. Imperium has done the opposite being too stubborn for a complromise and decided to start an alliance war because of this. Forthermore it was obvious that a war will not solve this problem.
My question is, what do you want to achieve with this war? If you hoped that stars can get his kuwal back, then this has obviously backfired.
And how high were the losses of stars? Robert has done a minisab, and deleted his account. Mujengan lost a lot of power by losing this member, Imperium lost almost nothing. You probably wanted that Mujengan pays 50 billion compensation, but now what? The war has only started and Imperium has lost TRILLIONS. It was not worth it for Imperium.
If you say the war started because Mujengan didnt pay compensation for a betrayers sabs then I will not believe you. It looks more like Imperium was looking for a reason to start a war. You know, if you really want to fight a war, then why don't you just say it? Be honest for once.
I find this attitude really bad, but if you simply started a war and said that it's because you would like some gentlemans war, then it would make you look much better in my eyes than now.
And again Imperium fighting against Mujengan is extremely unfair don't you think? But with World Republic it becomes less unfair. After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan.
This endless wars Imperium starts are a curse to Imperium. And your alliance is falling apart and weakening after each war. In the first Imperium-WR war, you were 3 times stronger than us, had 3 times more population than us. In the 3rd war you fought, the first TOC-TIE war, which you started to maintain your domination over Aderan Wars has led to your demise as a dominating superpower and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan. And now you are in a war again, which you have started once again.
The Marauders will be the clear winners in the TOC-TIE war, and I am ok with that.
Why? Because instead of using aggressive and arrogant politics like Imperium, they are much more reasonable than most alliances here. I hold Seaborgium in high regard, and it's no secret that he is a much better leader than you are ian. He doesn't start wars and his alliance fights only if they are forced to. So remember, When this war ends, there will be only one winner and it will be The Marauders. They will become the dominating superpower on Aderan Wars!
I am curious, is this your way of formally declaring war upon T.I.E.?
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by JadeFire Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:31 pm
Sounds like to me there is already a war between WR and TIE unless of course they are going to pay those hits back... There was no declaring of war.. What I gain from his post WE should have known if we went to war with Muj that we was at war with WR too ..
JadeFire- Aderan Miner
- ID : 836
Number of posts : 243
Location : USA
Registration date : 2009-08-01 -
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by ian Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:56 pm
Kenzu, your above post is flawed in many regards.
So.. lets see:
1.) Roberts (Mujengen) attacked Stars (TIE). At the time we demanded compensation from Roberts, then he deleted and I kinda let the issue go quiet while Smog & Stars were in dispute.
2.) Stars did a hit on Castravate which he believed to be profitable... it turns out it wasn't profitable. Smog & Vaga both message me demanding compensation and threatening to make Stars statless over it.
I responded saying once Stars got his compensation TIE would compensate Castravate. What was their response?
If you want to find the numbers, check my MOTD. As for stars, tell him to ask robert for compensation/mass him, since it's not mujengan's problem anymore. Now you either pay back castravete, or we're going to find some other way to make justice.
minimum profit for a hit over castravete is 30% of the kuwal stolen, roughly 2.26 billion.
stars' costs for the hit were 6.99 billion.
money stolen 6.8 billion
the hit was made at [15 Feb] 09:31
Starting that moment, stars had 7 days to pay back the kuwal stolen + compensation for 823 casualties suffered by castravete's army.
And please, don't give me that crap with robert, you said it yourself: he either pays or all his stats are removed. His stats are removed, payment is done.
That was his response. He stated specifically I/TIE have to pay back Castravate or basically they d find justice elsewhere (read: Mass Stars/TIE)...
Yet apparently its somehow TIE being unreasonable by saying we d compensate for a single attack once Mujengen compensates for a full-scale series of assassinations/sabbing?
Face it: TIE offered Compensation provided we got OUR Compensation. Mujengen refused to pay the compensation they owe and demanded the compensation Castravate is owed - or face war.
We sent a few other PM's - all of which failed to establish anything more other than confirming Mujengen kept repeatedly demanding their competition (or its war) while refusing to pay TIE anything at all. It wasn't TIE unwilling to compromise (remember, we were happy to pay compensation IF Mujengen actually paid their debt back) it was Mujengen refusing point blank to.
That is unacceptable... and since Mujengen had made it damn clear if they don't get compensation they d make Stars Statless/ take other forms of "justice" we took them up on their threat, coupled with their own refusal to compensate for the Mujengen violation of the TIE-TOC peace treaty (you neglected to mention that bit didn't you?) and actively preempted them.
3.) As for this bit: "After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan."
I m sorry... but thats plain BS.
1.) It was made pretty damn clear on this topic the issue was not resolved (hence the topic's existence for gods sake): https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2299-imperium-mujengen-situation
2.) My very last message sent to Smog:
Subject: Roberts
Hey.
I m gonna have to talk to the rest of the Imperium regarding what to do about the Roberts issue since I actually thought it was a single unprofitable hit by Roberts he did... as oppossed to what he actually did:
[10 Feb] 09:24 R0B3RT Sabotage Destroyed: 9274;7590 680,000
[10 Feb] 09:11 ???? Offense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:11 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:14 R0B3RT Assassin Success 450,000
Like it or not... those hits happened by a Mujengen member in violation of the TIE-TOC peace treaty.
That makes it YOUR responsibility.
Do you still refuse to compensate?
Cheers
That was sent on the 18th of Febuary Btw, BEFORE our own lovely discussion - which I m simply going to post one of your own posts to highlight I REPEATEDLY made it clear TIE was going to war with Mujengen if we did not get compensated:
Then there is our final PM's you didn't include in that topic:
My Message to you:
The issue is resolved.
I no longer owe World Republic anything. All debts are paid up.
Enjoy and it was fun discussing with you.
My 2nd message after you replied (i included your reply since it was quoted in the PM):
Keinutnai Wrote
It is not resolved because I havent received the kuwal yet.
Speak to october 13.
He is your diplomat - he also accepted both brokers.
Cheers
Third & Last Message (again quoting your PM):
Keinutnai Wrote
oh good, but why havent you send them to me?
I wanted a witness/third party that I did infact compensate WR lol
################################################
I think its fair to say you can't for a second try and play the "Imperium said it was resolved, bit cheating lieing Imperium!!!!!" card considering those messages I think say repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly that TIE is going to war with Mujengen unless we get compensation.
Instead - what happens? We get no response at all from Mujengen (not even a counter-offer), and as far as we are concerned the time limit was counting down before Mujengen massed Stars for not compensating Castravate - while having refused point blank to even accept responsibility for Roberts actions (something you deny even now).
As such: Yes we are at war & will remain that way untill The Order of Chaos learns to take responsibility for their members actions.
We do not tolerate people violating the peace treaty and then trying to escape responsibility for their members actions - and we *especially* do not tolerate people threatening The Imperium, demanding WE take responsibility for our members actions, when they in the very same message refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.
So... yeah we are at war. Also you neglected to mention this is ALL of T.O.C (including VIS) against TIE... not just Mujengen & WR.
So.. lets see:
1.) Roberts (Mujengen) attacked Stars (TIE). At the time we demanded compensation from Roberts, then he deleted and I kinda let the issue go quiet while Smog & Stars were in dispute.
2.) Stars did a hit on Castravate which he believed to be profitable... it turns out it wasn't profitable. Smog & Vaga both message me demanding compensation and threatening to make Stars statless over it.
I responded saying once Stars got his compensation TIE would compensate Castravate. What was their response?
If you want to find the numbers, check my MOTD. As for stars, tell him to ask robert for compensation/mass him, since it's not mujengan's problem anymore. Now you either pay back castravete, or we're going to find some other way to make justice.
minimum profit for a hit over castravete is 30% of the kuwal stolen, roughly 2.26 billion.
stars' costs for the hit were 6.99 billion.
money stolen 6.8 billion
the hit was made at [15 Feb] 09:31
Starting that moment, stars had 7 days to pay back the kuwal stolen + compensation for 823 casualties suffered by castravete's army.
And please, don't give me that crap with robert, you said it yourself: he either pays or all his stats are removed. His stats are removed, payment is done.
That was his response. He stated specifically I/TIE have to pay back Castravate or basically they d find justice elsewhere (read: Mass Stars/TIE)...
Yet apparently its somehow TIE being unreasonable by saying we d compensate for a single attack once Mujengen compensates for a full-scale series of assassinations/sabbing?
Face it: TIE offered Compensation provided we got OUR Compensation. Mujengen refused to pay the compensation they owe and demanded the compensation Castravate is owed - or face war.
We sent a few other PM's - all of which failed to establish anything more other than confirming Mujengen kept repeatedly demanding their competition (or its war) while refusing to pay TIE anything at all. It wasn't TIE unwilling to compromise (remember, we were happy to pay compensation IF Mujengen actually paid their debt back) it was Mujengen refusing point blank to.
That is unacceptable... and since Mujengen had made it damn clear if they don't get compensation they d make Stars Statless/ take other forms of "justice" we took them up on their threat, coupled with their own refusal to compensate for the Mujengen violation of the TIE-TOC peace treaty (you neglected to mention that bit didn't you?) and actively preempted them.
3.) As for this bit: "After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan."
I m sorry... but thats plain BS.
1.) It was made pretty damn clear on this topic the issue was not resolved (hence the topic's existence for gods sake): https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/t2299-imperium-mujengen-situation
2.) My very last message sent to Smog:
Subject: Roberts
Hey.
I m gonna have to talk to the rest of the Imperium regarding what to do about the Roberts issue since I actually thought it was a single unprofitable hit by Roberts he did... as oppossed to what he actually did:
[10 Feb] 09:24 R0B3RT Sabotage Destroyed: 9274;7590 680,000
[10 Feb] 09:11 ???? Offense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:12 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:11 ???? Defense Success ????
[10 Feb] 09:14 R0B3RT Assassin Success 450,000
Like it or not... those hits happened by a Mujengen member in violation of the TIE-TOC peace treaty.
That makes it YOUR responsibility.
Do you still refuse to compensate?
Cheers
That was sent on the 18th of Febuary Btw, BEFORE our own lovely discussion - which I m simply going to post one of your own posts to highlight I REPEATEDLY made it clear TIE was going to war with Mujengen if we did not get compensated:
Kenzu wrote:Here is our conversation:background info: the person sabotaging TIE is not a WR member and he deleted his account some time ago.Keinutnai wrote:19 Feb 06:58
Your hit was against our farming policy. I ask you therefore to pay compensation. Thank you for your cooperation.
Below you can see the calculation:
[19 Feb] 04:01 ian 21,534,261,231 Kuwal Stolen 10 17799 2684 29,290,591,038 30,777,424,341 details
uu price + train price + weapon price = 275k+150k+522k=947k
Your profit: 21.534.261.231 - 17.799*(947k) =
= 21.534.261.231 - 16.855.653.000 = 4.678.608.231
minimum profit required = kuwal stolen * 0.3
= 6.460.278.369
Your profit was almost 2 billion less than required. I therefore ask you to pay compensation. Thank you.ian wrote:LOL, sure... once T.O.C compensates for the violation of the peace treaty one of your members performed via sabotaging & assassinating a Imperium Member.
I don't think you can disagree sabbing & assassinating IS a act of war and unacceptable... yet where is the compensation from your empire Kenzu? Its been 9 days and yet all we ve recieved back is basically a threat of war.
Until T.O.C takes responsibility for YOUR members actions and compensates for the damages done by one of YOUR members in a whole series of offensive & hostile actions (sabbing & assassinating)- as far as T.I.E is concerned T.O.C *is* fairgame to be farmed.
Face it: A peace treaty existed between TIE & TOC... which you guys have violated and refuse to compensate for. Yet you seem to think you can demand compensation and refuse to compensate for acts of war?
To hell with that. As long as T.O.C refuses to compensate for hostile actions done on us - then T.I.E is going to commence increasingly large retaliatory operations of our own.
Compensate or face the consequences.Keinutnai wrote:if someone doesnt pay compensation for hostile actions, then you mass him, if someone doesn't pay compensation for braking our farming policy, then we mass him.
I would appreciate if you don't make excuses and pay compensation.ian wrote:An agreement is a agreement.
You can't go back on it. TIE & TOC had a agreement that the max profit requirement is 2.72billion. We also had a understanding either ending that agreement required a 24hour notification to the other side.
Last night I informed you we were withdrawing from the agreement. That means we withdraw tonight at 8.10pm.
Until then we have to follow that agreement - which makes my hit INSIDE the TIE-TOC policy and not a breach.
#######################################################
Frankly Kenzu I m getting tired of this.
One of T.O.C's members assassinates and sabotages a TIE member - and what do you guys do about it? NOTHING. No compensation, not even a apology.
Yet your not threatening me with war because I hit you inside of the TIE-TOC policy?
lol... seriously?ian wrote:Since you do not have this in your MOTD:
How long exactly do breachers get to return the compensation?
Because the way I see it:
1.) There was no breach in the first place
2.) If Mujengen does not compensate for Roberts hostile attacks, Mujengen & The Imperium are going to war. I actually do not know how I can make that any clearer.
In the event of point 2.... depending on World Republic's stance will decide whether or not you get compensation. I.e. I m not going to compensate you if your going to support a aggressive alliance who's members attack other alliances and then refuse to compensate/repair the damage done.
On the other hand if your going to stay out of it... well T.I.E will honour your farming policy.
Either way: I need to response on how long people get to compensate and I also need to know what you plan to do if T.I.E responds to Mujengen's attack on us via force.
Assassinating & Sabbing TIE members IS a act of war.
If we did it to World Republic or TOC you would consider it a declaration of war and TIE would be the aggressors.
Instead its Mujengen who has attacked us... we ve asked for compensation and they ve refused.
Its not fair & I ll be damned if we ll tolerate it.Keinutnai wrote:we both know what will happen if you dont compensate.
I am also aware that you havent compensated Sara for a hit on her when she was in VIS not aligned to TOC. Too much time has passed to ask for the compensation for hitting her, but that doesn't mean I forget how you treated my wife. You haven't paid compensation to her, even though she had a farming policy, only because you knew her alliance was not strong enough to oppose Imperium. But now she is in TOC and we will make sure all compensations are paid.ian wrote:Lol, its ironic but technically I haven't actually broken World Republic's policy yet anyway
During the discussions of the original peace treaty yourself and Lord Ishurue repeatedly expressed concerns The Imperium would dissolve/break from the treaty without any warning or notice. As such it was agreed between us (at least as far as TIE is aware) to exit the treaty required a 24hour notification.
Last night at 8.50pm GMT I posted on the Aderan Wars forum our intention to leave the TIE-TOC farming policy. Given I didn't expressly state we would ignore that 24hour notification period, and given we haven't *yet* enforced a different policy to that which was agreed - I think its fair to say until 8.50pm GMT tonight T.I.E is bound to continue to follow the TIE-TOC farming policy... as are you when it comes to TIE farming of T.O.C.
Under the TIE-TOC farming policy it was agreed a max-profit requirement of 2.720billion.
My hit was legitimate. If you message me a copy of World Republic's farming policy along with the necessary procedure to follow I will ensure T.I.E is informed in time for 8.50pm tonight - whereupon we will have officially left the TIE-TOC policy.
I however require (if you choose to adopt another policy) World Republic and Mujengen to also make it clear you are no longer following the TIE-TOC policy. A simple post will be fine
CheersKeinutnai wrote:You can't refer to a policy you have have withdrawn from
You said on the forums:
"The Imperium Empire hereby withdraws from whatever the TIE-TOC farming policy is/was (I actually can't remember)."
Besides, I am not interested in your excuses, WR has a policy and everyone has to follow it, just like we follow the policies of others.ian wrote:lol, actually it was agreed neither side could withdraw from the policy without giving the other 24hours notice.
You ve got your 24hours notice.
#######################################################
But... putting that aside: check the PM I just sent you.
I need to know the answer to the questions.
CheersKeinutnai wrote:
You are wrong, read the whole TOC-TIE farming policy thread and you will see that the 2nd TOC-TIE farming policy was only temporary, and it reverted to the 1st TOC-TIE farming policy.
Besides, it all doesn't matter anymore. Our farming policy is in my MOTD, and everyone has to follow it. Now I ask you again to pay the compensation. If you don't know how much it is let me tell you:
You have to pay 23.788.821.231
Now I hope you will be reasonable and all compensation will be paid.
Thank you.
------------------------
Please show me where does the policy state that a 24 hour notice must be given? I don't recall ever agreeing to such thing.
The policy you talk about has been signed on 2nd October 2010 and it was a trial policy lasting 7 days. I made it clear to you at that time that it's not acceptable and WR was using the first TOC-TIE policy soon after the trial policy expired (also october 2010)ian wrote:lol.
Please re-read my PM.
I believe I asked you how long I have to pay it, and also told you repayment will depend on how things go with Mujengen & what WR's stance will be if things do heat up between TIE & Mujengen.
So... how long does WR give to players to repay it? You have NOT got a time limit in your message of the day... so strictly speaking I can say "yeah sure I ll repay it as soon as possible".... and due to your not telling me *when* have to repay it by.... well, you can't really complain unless you actually tell people when they have to repay it.
So... care to answer the question (and I d recommend you put it in your MOTD).
CheersKeinutnai wrote:Most important is that make a promise to repay the debt, no matter how other things go. Namely that you promise to pay the compensation no matter what results between Mujengan and Imperium are achieved.
It's not necessary to put the time in MOTD. Obviously it has to be repaid as soon as possible. Speed of repayment depends on your income. Your income should provide you with roughly 40 billion kuwal each day. Which means you should be theoretically able to repay the kuwal within no more than 3 days after being asked.
If you however need the kuwal urgently, we can agree that you repay it all within a week if you send a 5 billion broker within 24 hours.
So my questions are:
Do you promise to repay the compensation for the hit?
Do you want to repay within 3 days or within 7 days?
(If within 7 days, then please send a 5 billion broker to repay some of the debt now.)ian wrote:I ll try and repay within 7 days then.
Naturally IF The Imperium ends up at war with Mujengen and then World Republic intervenes I d expect you to simply mass me (since we d be at war anyway lol) instead... but *if* it comes to war between TIE & Mujengen and WR stays out of it I ll do my best to pay back within 7 days anyway.
Hope that solves that problem?Keinutnai wrote:Yes it does, but only if you send 5 billion next time you log in, so that I know you have honest intentions.
You should however know that World Republic has an MDP with Mujengan and we will defend them if someone will try to harm them from while they enforce their farming policy.
There is no reason for you to start a war with them. If someone has made hostile missions against you, mass the player. I am sure Mujengan wouldn't mind if you mass Robert if he didnt delete his account. Afterall those who commit acts of violence have to be brought to justice. And this applies to everyone equally.
There is no reason why Smog or anyone else should pay for the misconduct of a player who isn't member of Mujengan anymore.
Additionally if stars doesn't repay, then he would be massed anyway, which means that robert would have been allowed to mass him anyway.ian wrote:I m afraid we disagree on that stance
The Imperium believes a alliance is responsible for their members actions. This is also what Smog is trying to force onto TIE.
Stars does *not* have SS. He is unable therefore to pay... and Smog knows this. Yet he is demanding compensation be provided and I quote him directly now: "Now you either pay back castravete, or we're going to find some other way to make justice"
That was his message to ME. Not to stars - to ME. He told ME to compensate Castravate or otherwise they ll find "some other way to make justice".
He specifically made it damn clear he expects The Imperium to be responsible for Stars actions and to compensate on his behalf given he is incapable of doing so.
Well... guess what? Robert is also incapable of compensating TIE so we also expect Mujengen to compensate on his behalf (Just like Mujengen expect TIE to on behalf of Stars).
The difference here is Stars did 1 bad attack he thought to be profitable, while the Mujengen member not only launched a whole string of attacks against Stars, but broke the TIE-TOC Peace treaty in doing so.
So: Yes, if Mujengen does not compensate for the attack on Stars, we will deem it a act of war by Mujengen and respond accordingly.
#####################################################
Now... whichever way you want to try and play it, the fact remains a Mujengen member launched a whole series of hostile actions against TIE causing considerable damage in violation of the peace treaty.
Roberts merely deleting his account is NOT a excuse. For all I know he could have been doing this under Mujengen's request - "attack TIE just before you leave"
How would you like it if all of TIE's members who have so far grown bored of Aderan Wars and left decided to do the same - and promptly started attacking World Republic before they left?
I am aware of your mutual "Defence" pact with Mujengen. However given a Mujengen player repeatedly attacked TIE in a hostile manner and Mujengen has refused to compensate or even apologise for the attacks..... they have initiated hostility's - not T.I.E. We would merely be responding *should* war occur.
####################################################
By all means bring World Republic into a war if one does kick off... just don't be suprised when TIE brings out 1 or 2 aces of our own in response .... Since obviously if we end up at war with Mujengen we will have made the necessary preparations to deal with World Republic should you intervene... though it is my sincere hope you guys just stay out of it.
World Republic has the future of Aderan Wars in its ranks. You know the effects wars have on new players and you know the difference which exists between TIE's strike techs and *most* of World Republic's defences.
I ask you to stay out of any future war. The facts are simple: A mujengen member assassinated & Sabbed TIE repeatedly. Mujengen have failed to provide any measure of compensation or even a apology - both of which taken together are a violation of the TOC-TIE peace treaty to which we have the right to respond should no compensation be forthcoming - which none has come yet.
Thats all there is to say on the matter.Keinutnai wrote:stars can repay by being the officer of one of Imperium members who have SS. This commander will pay him only 40.000, and the money which is transfered to the imperium member this way can be used to pay compensation.
If stars doesnt have SS, he should have thought earlier how he can repay others if he makes an illegal hit.
All I can say is that stars can repay through the commander-officer relation.
Then there is our final PM's you didn't include in that topic:
My Message to you:
The issue is resolved.
I no longer owe World Republic anything. All debts are paid up.
Enjoy and it was fun discussing with you.
My 2nd message after you replied (i included your reply since it was quoted in the PM):
Keinutnai Wrote
It is not resolved because I havent received the kuwal yet.
Speak to october 13.
He is your diplomat - he also accepted both brokers.
Cheers
Third & Last Message (again quoting your PM):
Keinutnai Wrote
oh good, but why havent you send them to me?
I wanted a witness/third party that I did infact compensate WR lol
################################################
I think its fair to say you can't for a second try and play the "Imperium said it was resolved, bit cheating lieing Imperium!!!!!" card considering those messages I think say repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly that TIE is going to war with Mujengen unless we get compensation.
Instead - what happens? We get no response at all from Mujengen (not even a counter-offer), and as far as we are concerned the time limit was counting down before Mujengen massed Stars for not compensating Castravate - while having refused point blank to even accept responsibility for Roberts actions (something you deny even now).
As such: Yes we are at war & will remain that way untill The Order of Chaos learns to take responsibility for their members actions.
We do not tolerate people violating the peace treaty and then trying to escape responsibility for their members actions - and we *especially* do not tolerate people threatening The Imperium, demanding WE take responsibility for our members actions, when they in the very same message refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.
So... yeah we are at war. Also you neglected to mention this is ALL of T.O.C (including VIS) against TIE... not just Mujengen & WR.
ian- Coalition Officer
- Alliance : You get 3 guesses as to which one
Age : 34
Number of posts : 1180
Registration date : 2009-04-21
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by Nimras Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:01 pm
- Spoiler:
- Kenzu wrote:I think it's known to everyone that Mujengan has a mutual defense pact with World Republic. World Republic honors its promises and will always defend its allies if attacked by hostile forces.
It is clear that a personal war which was started by R0B3RT against stars has led to an alliance war which was started by Imperium against Mujengan.
Making smog and all of Mujengan responsible for having a member who would one day start a personal war with stars that erupted on some other game and spilled over to Aderan Wars and starting an alliance war because of that was not right, especially because it's not that hard to place a spy in a hostile alliance and order him to attack an alliance to give a reason for war. As a rule, alliances are unlikely to compensate for members who they believe have betrayed them, and R0B3RT is a betrayer of Mujengan.
Another reason why this is wrong is that the policy change was made retroactively:
Until now, always when a member in an alliance screwed up he had 2 possibilities, either pay compensation or be massed, and it wouldn't become an alliance war unless the alliance provided protection for him. Smog made it clear that Robert was wrong and it was planned that Robert will pay compensation. If Robert wouldnt pay compensation, Mujengan would let Imperium mass him. This is how it always was, and I don't find it acceptable that Imperium changed its policy retroactively, and consider this to be merely a poor excuse to start a war.
It was in no way Smogs fault that Robert massed stars, and there was no way how Smog could have prevented it.
At the same time a policy to make responsible and to force alliance leaders to pay compensation for alliance members who stopped listening to them, or betrayed them will not prevent this from happening. This would only help, if the alliance leader was organising the attacks, but if he really did organise them, then he could order an alliance member to leave the alliance for a week or month and then order it to attack, or ask the alliance member to join a different alliance to attack.
In any case the policy will not prevent betrayers to attack other alliances, and those who want to harm other alliances on purpose can find loopholes in this policy, in other words the policy is useless as it doesnt protect the alliance (Imperium) from these kind of attacks at all, only leads to escalation.
We also believe that Imperium should have negotiated with Mujengan much longer, in a rational way without emotions trying to prevent escalation. Imperium has done the opposite being too stubborn for a complromise and decided to start an alliance war because of this. Forthermore it was obvious that a war will not solve this problem.
My question is, what do you want to achieve with this war? If you hoped that stars can get his kuwal back, then this has obviously backfired.
And how high were the losses of stars? Robert has done a minisab, and deleted his account. Mujengan lost a lot of power by losing this member, Imperium lost almost nothing. You probably wanted that Mujengan pays 50 billion compensation, but now what? The war has only started and Imperium has lost TRILLIONS. It was not worth it for Imperium.
If you say the war started because Mujengan didnt pay compensation for a betrayers sabs then I will not believe you. It looks more like Imperium was looking for a reason to start a war. You know, if you really want to fight a war, then why don't you just say it? Be honest for once.
I find this attitude really bad, but if you simply started a war and said that it's because you would like some gentlemans war, then it would make you look much better in my eyes than now.
And again Imperium fighting against Mujengan is extremely unfair don't you think? But with World Republic it becomes less unfair. After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan.
This endless wars Imperium starts are a curse to Imperium. And your alliance is falling apart and weakening after each war. In the first Imperium-WR war, you were 3 times stronger than us, had 3 times more population than us. In the 3rd war you fought, the first TOC-TIE war, which you started to maintain your domination over Aderan Wars has led to your demise as a dominating superpower and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan. And now you are in a war again, which you have started once again.
The Marauders will be the clear winners in the TOC-TIE war, and I am ok with that.
Why? Because instead of using aggressive and arrogant politics like Imperium, they are much more reasonable than most alliances here. I hold Seaborgium in high regard, and it's no secret that he is a much better leader than you are ian. He doesn't start wars and his alliance fights only if they are forced to. So remember, When this war ends, there will be only one winner and it will be The Marauders. They will become the dominating superpower on Aderan Wars!
LOL Kenzu your full of your self again DOUBLE standards what did i tell you?.
And here we have it guys and girls WR bunch of pussies and lousers with double standards.
Yes Kenzu i dare to say it because you are. Had this waite it already has been a war between TM and Muj over same issue then you would have left Muj fighting for them self now because its TIE you join in had it been any other alliance you would have let them solve it.
Kenzu your a bad leader and a bad player with no honour and respect but then again so is Muj so you guys goese greate together :p.
Anyway TIE my rooting is with you.
Nimras- Aderan Spy
- Age : 41
Number of posts : 416
Location : Farum, Denmark
Registration date : 2010-06-19
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by Kenzu Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:12 pm
Nimras wrote:
- Spoiler:
It is clear that a personal war which was started by R0B3RT against stars has led to an alliance war which was started by Imperium against Mujengan.
Making smog and all of Mujengan responsible for having a member who would one day start a personal war with stars that erupted on some other game and spilled over to Aderan Wars and starting an alliance war because of that was not right, especially because it's not that hard to place a spy in a hostile alliance and order him to attack an alliance to give a reason for war. As a rule, alliances are unlikely to compensate for members who they believe have betrayed them, and R0B3RT is a betrayer of Mujengan.
Another reason why this is wrong is that the policy change was made retroactively:
Until now, always when a member in an alliance screwed up he had 2 possibilities, either pay compensation or be massed, and it wouldn't become an alliance war unless the alliance provided protection for him. Smog made it clear that Robert was wrong and it was planned that Robert will pay compensation. If Robert wouldnt pay compensation, Mujengan would let Imperium mass him. This is how it always was, and I don't find it acceptable that Imperium changed its policy retroactively, and consider this to be merely a poor excuse to start a war.
It was in no way Smogs fault that Robert massed stars, and there was no way how Smog could have prevented it.
At the same time a policy to make responsible and to force alliance leaders to pay compensation for alliance members who stopped listening to them, or betrayed them will not prevent this from happening. This would only help, if the alliance leader was organising the attacks, but if he really did organise them, then he could order an alliance member to leave the alliance for a week or month and then order it to attack, or ask the alliance member to join a different alliance to attack.
In any case the policy will not prevent betrayers to attack other alliances, and those who want to harm other alliances on purpose can find loopholes in this policy, in other words the policy is useless as it doesnt protect the alliance (Imperium) from these kind of attacks at all, only leads to escalation.
We also believe that Imperium should have negotiated with Mujengan much longer, in a rational way without emotions trying to prevent escalation. Imperium has done the opposite being too stubborn for a complromise and decided to start an alliance war because of this. Forthermore it was obvious that a war will not solve this problem.
My question is, what do you want to achieve with this war? If you hoped that stars can get his kuwal back, then this has obviously backfired.
And how high were the losses of stars? Robert has done a minisab, and deleted his account. Mujengan lost a lot of power by losing this member, Imperium lost almost nothing. You probably wanted that Mujengan pays 50 billion compensation, but now what? The war has only started and Imperium has lost TRILLIONS. It was not worth it for Imperium.
If you say the war started because Mujengan didnt pay compensation for a betrayers sabs then I will not believe you. It looks more like Imperium was looking for a reason to start a war. You know, if you really want to fight a war, then why don't you just say it? Be honest for once.
I find this attitude really bad, but if you simply started a war and said that it's because you would like some gentlemans war, then it would make you look much better in my eyes than now.
And again Imperium fighting against Mujengan is extremely unfair don't you think? But with World Republic it becomes less unfair. After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan.
This endless wars Imperium starts are a curse to Imperium. And your alliance is falling apart and weakening after each war. In the first Imperium-WR war, you were 3 times stronger than us, had 3 times more population than us. In the 3rd war you fought, the first TOC-TIE war, which you started to maintain your domination over Aderan Wars has led to your demise as a dominating superpower and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan. And now you are in a war again, which you have started once again.
The Marauders will be the clear winners in the TOC-TIE war, and I am ok with that.
Why? Because instead of using aggressive and arrogant politics like Imperium, they are much more reasonable than most alliances here. I hold Seaborgium in high regard, and it's no secret that he is a much better leader than you are ian. He doesn't start wars and his alliance fights only if they are forced to. So remember, When this war ends, there will be only one winner and it will be The Marauders. They will become the dominating superpower on Aderan Wars!
LOL Kenzu your full of your self again DOUBLE standards what did i tell you?.
And here we have it guys and girls WR bunch of pussies and lousers with double standards.
Yes Kenzu i dare to say it because you are. Had this waite it already has been a war between TM and Muj over same issue then you would have left Muj fighting for them self now because its TIE you join in had it been any other alliance you would have let them solve it.
Kenzu your a bad leader and a bad player with no honour and respect but then again so is Muj so you guys goese greate together :p.
Anyway TIE my rooting is with you.
Nimras here thinks that entering war when Mujengan gets attacked by Imperium, but staying out of the war when Mujengan attacks Marauders is a double standard.
After being told that the a Mutual Defense Treaty (one that WR has with Mujengan) means that an alliance supports the other only if the other one gets attacked, not when the other one is starting a war, Nimras still believes that it's a double standard.
Now let me tell you, a "Mutual Defense Pact" IS NOT EQUAL TO "Mutual Aggression and Defense Pacts"
Kenzu- Alliance Leader
- Age : 37
Number of posts : 3034
Registration date : 2008-12-03
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by Kingofshinobis1 Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:16 pm
He does have a point about that nimras though technically robert who was in mujengan during the attacks, was the first one to take action against the imperium.
Kingofshinobis1- Aderan Super Soldier
- ID : 171
Alliance : The_Mercenary
Hire For Massings
Age : 34
Number of posts : 823
Location : United States
Registration date : 2010-01-31
Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by ian Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:25 pm
@ Kenzu: Incidentally, regarding your "The Imperium is weakening" stuff:
Yes once upon a very very very distant time TIE was 3 times the army size of WR... except your neglecting the *entire* game is designed so that over time new players can catch up to older players. I think thats what Admin Efficiency is for?
So... yeah, the reality is we could never hope to hold our edge over World Republic even without wars... except wait a minute, am I misreading or is TIE STILL rank 1 army size with 28 players vs. your 59 players?
That puts our players still more than twice the size of yours on average (even with the affects of AE meaning less income to invest into U.P/buying UU etc...).
Lets also not forget comparing things based on just army size & power (which as you know TIE deliberately limits our power so we don't loose too much in war) ignores things like Tech investment - which the reality is TIE still has a MASSIVELY large lead in vs. the average T.O.C player (in terms of kuwal investment costs)
FINALLY.... you said "and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan."... yet in the same post said TIE vs. Mujengen = unfair.
So... on the one hand your saying Mujengen is another superpower comparable to TIE, but on the other saying it would be unfair for Mujengen to fight TIE on its own... because presumably TIE's advantage over them in techs, army size, members and power makes it unfair?
That doesn't make sense. Either they ARE a superpower able to take TIE on on their own, or they are not - in which case they WON'T be in the same league as TIE and kinda defeats your "TIE is in decline" statement.
Make up your mind.
FINALLY.... Last I recall TIE fought T.O.C with 3+ to 1 odds in the last war AND not only survived it... but retained rank 1 army size, member experience, alliance experience and rank 1 overall for probably 75% of the time between then and now... and kinda ironically, we regained it the day this war began.
The sheer fact you ve said Mujengen can't take TIE on their own (its unfair!!!!!!) and that ALL of T.O.C has had to mobilize to counter us... kinda indicates we are still very much a superpower which is in a league above World Republic, Vis or Mujengen on their own. Apparently only together can you counter us.
Lastly... I seem to recall TIE at its supposed height when we were 3 times World Republic's size still got effectively countered by a coalition of other players/alliances + World Republic..... so your stating that because you can do it now means TIE is in decline, when at our suppossed height you could do it then also... kinda defeats your decline statement (unless of course... TOC is in decline, which you are & the game itself is)
The situation hasn't really changed. On your own World Republic would struggle to effectively fight TIE - you d bring some of us down, but with our tech & economic advantage we d bring WR players down far quicker. End result? A war which basically ends up the same as the only other time we fought WR on its own (The Dark Crusade) - World Republic surrender & your removal from power.
I personally think there is only 2 superpowers on this game.... and 2 will remain after this war. Sure... a bunch of medium alliances allying together can counter them... but that does not mean they are a supepower.
A bunch of European Nations allying together could probably counter the USA.... but that does not mean the USA is in decline or isn't a superpower anymore....
Finally (honestly this time it IS the last point).... I don't think my leadership is bad. The Reality is T.I.E voted on whether to Strike Mujengen... it was 78.6% in favour of war.
Yes once upon a very very very distant time TIE was 3 times the army size of WR... except your neglecting the *entire* game is designed so that over time new players can catch up to older players. I think thats what Admin Efficiency is for?
So... yeah, the reality is we could never hope to hold our edge over World Republic even without wars... except wait a minute, am I misreading or is TIE STILL rank 1 army size with 28 players vs. your 59 players?
That puts our players still more than twice the size of yours on average (even with the affects of AE meaning less income to invest into U.P/buying UU etc...).
Lets also not forget comparing things based on just army size & power (which as you know TIE deliberately limits our power so we don't loose too much in war) ignores things like Tech investment - which the reality is TIE still has a MASSIVELY large lead in vs. the average T.O.C player (in terms of kuwal investment costs)
FINALLY.... you said "and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan."... yet in the same post said TIE vs. Mujengen = unfair.
So... on the one hand your saying Mujengen is another superpower comparable to TIE, but on the other saying it would be unfair for Mujengen to fight TIE on its own... because presumably TIE's advantage over them in techs, army size, members and power makes it unfair?
That doesn't make sense. Either they ARE a superpower able to take TIE on on their own, or they are not - in which case they WON'T be in the same league as TIE and kinda defeats your "TIE is in decline" statement.
Make up your mind.
FINALLY.... Last I recall TIE fought T.O.C with 3+ to 1 odds in the last war AND not only survived it... but retained rank 1 army size, member experience, alliance experience and rank 1 overall for probably 75% of the time between then and now... and kinda ironically, we regained it the day this war began.
The sheer fact you ve said Mujengen can't take TIE on their own (its unfair!!!!!!) and that ALL of T.O.C has had to mobilize to counter us... kinda indicates we are still very much a superpower which is in a league above World Republic, Vis or Mujengen on their own. Apparently only together can you counter us.
Lastly... I seem to recall TIE at its supposed height when we were 3 times World Republic's size still got effectively countered by a coalition of other players/alliances + World Republic..... so your stating that because you can do it now means TIE is in decline, when at our suppossed height you could do it then also... kinda defeats your decline statement (unless of course... TOC is in decline, which you are & the game itself is)
The situation hasn't really changed. On your own World Republic would struggle to effectively fight TIE - you d bring some of us down, but with our tech & economic advantage we d bring WR players down far quicker. End result? A war which basically ends up the same as the only other time we fought WR on its own (The Dark Crusade) - World Republic surrender & your removal from power.
I personally think there is only 2 superpowers on this game.... and 2 will remain after this war. Sure... a bunch of medium alliances allying together can counter them... but that does not mean they are a supepower.
A bunch of European Nations allying together could probably counter the USA.... but that does not mean the USA is in decline or isn't a superpower anymore....
Finally (honestly this time it IS the last point).... I don't think my leadership is bad. The Reality is T.I.E voted on whether to Strike Mujengen... it was 78.6% in favour of war.
ian- Coalition Officer
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by JadeFire Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:32 pm
Finally (honestly this time it IS the last point).... I don't think my leadership is bad. The Reality is T.I.E voted on whether to Strike Mujengen... it was 78.6% in favour of war.
I for one as a TIE member can back him up on this. It was a Alliance discussion not just Ian, IT WAS Most of the alliance backing him.
I for one as a TIE member can back him up on this. It was a Alliance discussion not just Ian, IT WAS Most of the alliance backing him.
JadeFire- Aderan Miner
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by kingkongfan1 Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:41 pm
JadeFire wrote:Finally (honestly this time it IS the last point).... I don't think my leadership is bad. The Reality is T.I.E voted on whether to Strike Mujengen... it was 78.6% in favour of war.
I for one as a TIE member can back him up on this. It was a Alliance discussion not just Ian, IT WAS Most of the alliance backing him.
JMO... that is the way it should be... just saying.
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by Nimras Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:51 pm
Kingofshinobis1 wrote:He does have a point about that nimras though technically robert who was in mujengan during the attacks, was the first one to take action against the imperium.
KOS relax not done yet
.Kenzu wrote:Nimras wrote:
- Spoiler:
It is clear that a personal war which was started by R0B3RT against stars has led to an alliance war which was started by Imperium against Mujengan.
Making smog and all of Mujengan responsible for having a member who would one day start a personal war with stars that erupted on some other game and spilled over to Aderan Wars and starting an alliance war because of that was not right, especially because it's not that hard to place a spy in a hostile alliance and order him to attack an alliance to give a reason for war. As a rule, alliances are unlikely to compensate for members who they believe have betrayed them, and R0B3RT is a betrayer of Mujengan.
Another reason why this is wrong is that the policy change was made retroactively:
Until now, always when a member in an alliance screwed up he had 2 possibilities, either pay compensation or be massed, and it wouldn't become an alliance war unless the alliance provided protection for him. Smog made it clear that Robert was wrong and it was planned that Robert will pay compensation. If Robert wouldnt pay compensation, Mujengan would let Imperium mass him. This is how it always was, and I don't find it acceptable that Imperium changed its policy retroactively, and consider this to be merely a poor excuse to start a war.
It was in no way Smogs fault that Robert massed stars, and there was no way how Smog could have prevented it.
At the same time a policy to make responsible and to force alliance leaders to pay compensation for alliance members who stopped listening to them, or betrayed them will not prevent this from happening. This would only help, if the alliance leader was organising the attacks, but if he really did organise them, then he could order an alliance member to leave the alliance for a week or month and then order it to attack, or ask the alliance member to join a different alliance to attack.
In any case the policy will not prevent betrayers to attack other alliances, and those who want to harm other alliances on purpose can find loopholes in this policy, in other words the policy is useless as it doesnt protect the alliance (Imperium) from these kind of attacks at all, only leads to escalation.
We also believe that Imperium should have negotiated with Mujengan much longer, in a rational way without emotions trying to prevent escalation. Imperium has done the opposite being too stubborn for a complromise and decided to start an alliance war because of this. Forthermore it was obvious that a war will not solve this problem.
My question is, what do you want to achieve with this war? If you hoped that stars can get his kuwal back, then this has obviously backfired.
And how high were the losses of stars? Robert has done a minisab, and deleted his account. Mujengan lost a lot of power by losing this member, Imperium lost almost nothing. You probably wanted that Mujengan pays 50 billion compensation, but now what? The war has only started and Imperium has lost TRILLIONS. It was not worth it for Imperium.
If you say the war started because Mujengan didnt pay compensation for a betrayers sabs then I will not believe you. It looks more like Imperium was looking for a reason to start a war. You know, if you really want to fight a war, then why don't you just say it? Be honest for once.
I find this attitude really bad, but if you simply started a war and said that it's because you would like some gentlemans war, then it would make you look much better in my eyes than now.
And again Imperium fighting against Mujengan is extremely unfair don't you think? But with World Republic it becomes less unfair. After I received the compensation from ian, I was pretty sure that the robert-stars issue is going to be solved soon as it seemed that Imperium is walking the path of diplomacy and compromise, even more so after they said that the case is closed and there are no more disputes. But this was nothing more than a lie, and Imperium launched an assault on Mujengan.
This endless wars Imperium starts are a curse to Imperium. And your alliance is falling apart and weakening after each war. In the first Imperium-WR war, you were 3 times stronger than us, had 3 times more population than us. In the 3rd war you fought, the first TOC-TIE war, which you started to maintain your domination over Aderan Wars has led to your demise as a dominating superpower and you had to share the superpowerstatus with World Republic and Mujengan. And now you are in a war again, which you have started once again.
The Marauders will be the clear winners in the TOC-TIE war, and I am ok with that.
Why? Because instead of using aggressive and arrogant politics like Imperium, they are much more reasonable than most alliances here. I hold Seaborgium in high regard, and it's no secret that he is a much better leader than you are ian. He doesn't start wars and his alliance fights only if they are forced to. So remember, When this war ends, there will be only one winner and it will be The Marauders. They will become the dominating superpower on Aderan Wars!
LOL Kenzu your full of your self again DOUBLE standards what did i tell you?.
And here we have it guys and girls WR bunch of pussies and lousers with double standards.
Yes Kenzu i dare to say it because you are. Had this waite it already has been a war between TM and Muj over same issue then you would have left Muj fighting for them self now because its TIE you join in had it been any other alliance you would have let them solve it.
Kenzu your a bad leader and a bad player with no honour and respect but then again so is Muj so you guys goese greate together :p.
Anyway TIE my rooting is with you.
Nimras here thinks that entering war when Mujengan gets attacked by Imperium, but staying out of the war when Mujengan attacks Marauders is a double standard.
After being told that the a Mutual Defense Treaty (one that WR has with Mujengan) means that an alliance supports the other only if the other one gets attacked, not when the other one is starting a war, Nimras still believes that it's a double standard.
Now let me tell you, a "Mutual Defense Pact" IS NOT EQUAL TO "Mutual Aggression and Defense Pacts"
LOL ohh Kenzu please read what people write before you post showing the fact i am right:
This started over bad leadership in Muj having a member massing a TIE member then say they will get robert to pay when he wont they admited to pay anyway Smog also wrote clearly cas left because they did not strike first the fact is this war was started over farming just like ours it does not matter who strike first everyone KNOWS the war will come therefore in this case your preacius MDP has to account for that so TIE cought Muj on the bed because they was hoping for more time to prepare.
And hence double standard had Muj at no point been planning war nor counting on war i would have agreed with you and your choice.
Problem is when both sides plan and count on a war then its no longer a the one who hits first starts the war as the war is already in the making.
Its the same when someone farm us they get some time to answer and repay if not we will mass the player because of that way if it goese to war its no us who stroke first nor them even if we hit first because of the fact everyone knew it would come because they will defend their player who are massed we will mass because thats the way we are.
You get the point Kenzu and because of this I will stand on the fact your full of your self even your action in the issue that started it you prove again your leadership lacks big time, your behavour during first war i was in proved it, your leadership when i was in WR proves it and i can go on, i have cought you lieing and i have cought you running as well as double standard that will not change nor will it change i find it funny that a war everyone knew would come because of Muj not wanting to pay and TIE therefore do their part which everyone knew would come still makes it Muj who started it was it a TM player instead and we did not honour our own policy then we would have startet the war even tho it was not us who striked first. Muj startet it end of story
.
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by Kenzu Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:57 pm
JadeFire wrote:Finally (honestly this time it IS the last point).... I don't think my leadership is bad. The Reality is T.I.E voted on whether to Strike Mujengen... it was 78.6% in favour of war.
I for one as a TIE member can back him up on this. It was a Alliance discussion not just Ian, IT WAS Most of the alliance backing him.
I am glad to hear it has been decided democratically!
But instead of saying majority of TIE supported it, it would be more accurate to say that most of those who voted, supported war, because only half of all Imperium members voted.
78.6% support means that 11 people supported the war and 3 people were against. Since Imperium has 28 members. 14 people haven't voted on it.
To be exact 78,571% of those who voted, supported it.
Out of all Imperium members:
39.3% supported the war.
10.7% were against the war.
50% didn't vote.
Last edited by Kenzu on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by buhcoreTheGreat Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:59 pm
Unlike in Mujegan i assume
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by ian Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:04 pm
Kenzu wrote:JadeFire wrote:Finally (honestly this time it IS the last point).... I don't think my leadership is bad. The Reality is T.I.E voted on whether to Strike Mujengen... it was 78.6% in favour of war.
I for one as a TIE member can back him up on this. It was a Alliance discussion not just Ian, IT WAS Most of the alliance backing him.
I am glad to hear it has been decided democratically!
lol, I m sorry Kenzu but the reality is almost every war we ve been into has had massive Imperium backing/TIE calling for war (including when I agree with you lot to a ceasefire). Even situations which did NOT happen due to myself/others making a decision not to go ahead have potentially had the majority of TIE in support of it. Infact... a lot of situations you think is me making as a dictator are democratically decided.
I don't actually think you realise just to the extent yourself/some of T.O.C annoy TIE's members. You think its purely me responsible... which is highly amusing. Having had a quick look through TIE's trash can (keeping in mind this isn't anywhere near all of the poll's) - also pay attention to the dates to give you a idea what situation it may or may not be relating to:
https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/peaceprt2.jpg
https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/peaceprt1.jpg
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https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/continuewar.jpg
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https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/Vespersrequest.jpg
##################################################
Deciding on the outcome to the TIE-TOC war shortly before the ceasefire was agreed:
https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/TIETOCendwar.jpg
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Decision to place sanctions on FIRE/WR (there's a topic somewhere on this forum relating to it):
https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/SanctionsonFIREWR.jpg
#####################################################
Something never went ahead with (think I veteo'd it):
https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/Nailthetop3farmers.jpg
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https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/WarwithWorldRepublic.jpg
#######################################################
https://2img.net/h/i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd103/ianjones1246/Tmwarintervention.jpg
Now.... I could be misinterpreting that data.... but from where I m standing it seems to have somewhat or a recurring theme
Can you guess what it is yet?
Its also the above consistent data (spread over a long term period) which allows me to, with a considerable measure of confidence, predict that the only way T.O.C is going to win this war is via breaking The Imperium's will to fight... which as you can probably tell from the above, hell has more chance of freezing over than of The Imperium's members not liking war.
This prediction therefore also allows me to make another statement: That you - Kenzu - are a complete fool. All World Republic's intervention has done is escalated the situation by a order of magnitude, increased everyone's losses (TIE & TOC) they ll take through the course of this war by several times over, probably prolonged the war.... and after all that we ll end up with the same outcome (most likely a mutual ceasefire).
Also.,.. just for shits & giggles I included the poll in the above asking T.I.E whether they wanted a ceasefire with TOC from the last war. As you can see... after that epic fight with TIE outnumbered 3+ players to 1... well, I actually went AGAINST democracy via agreeing to a ceasefire. If I d have listened to the majority there would have been no ceasefire.
This all concludes me to make a final statement: Despite everything you *think* you know about myself, my leadership and how The Imperium is run - you haven't got the slightest clue.
ian- Coalition Officer
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by curumo Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:24 pm
Seconded. All of the active TIE members' voices have been heard and with few doubts and VERY few negatives - we all called for retribution! Ian has out backing. He is a good leader and a loyal friend. Ain't no twisting of words gonna change what he did for TIE!!!! ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORD!
Oh and yes we lost trillions - but we killed more than we lost. Besides it's as simple as I'm going to put it now:
You make a hostile attempt against me or my brothers and sisters - and I am coming after you, one way or another.
Oh and yes we lost trillions - but we killed more than we lost. Besides it's as simple as I'm going to put it now:
You make a hostile attempt against me or my brothers and sisters - and I am coming after you, one way or another.
curumo- Aderan Miner
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by pxn Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:28 pm
I <3 Ian..
as long as he doesnt force us to read all his loooooohooooohooooong posts word for word
as long as he doesnt force us to read all his loooooohooooohooooong posts word for word
pxn- Mercenary
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by curumo Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Pxn you'd just agree with ian
But we have to give credit to him for bothering with such a long and extensive reply - however he DID make a good point
But we have to give credit to him for bothering with such a long and extensive reply - however he DID make a good point
curumo- Aderan Miner
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Re: ''A man walks into a bar,,,
by JadeFire Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:13 am
pxn wrote:I <3 Ian..
as long as he doesnt force us to read all his loooooohooooohooooong posts word for word
LOL I tell him all the time he should have been a book writer
**hides from IAN ;P **
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