Boosting Defense strategy

by Lord Ishurue Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:55 pm

we have the 3 defense strategies . Fortified , Normal, Counter.

What about adding some form of Defense Mobilization

on armory page u can make a minimum of 60% of your defense troops as First line of defense. ( meaning you defend with 60% of your defense action while the other 40% of your troops are at the base )

During peace times u would want to defend with 100% of your defense to block farming, but during war u may want to save some defense troops for after u get massed or something .

out of all the units ( spies, assassins, Defense troops, Attack Troops ) your defense has the least amount of control , and not to mention its the best War experience feeder so to speak .

i can use my strike to kill the enemy profitably ( war exp wise and damage wise ) which will drop my strike to a safe level .

Spies , i can sab until they cant be profitably killed or i can untrain some spies and sell the units for funds .

Assassins same as spies .

Defense. yes it does slow down your enemy's strike teams a lil bit , but the only way to salvage any defense is by selling your MBTs or MAs for IFVs or APCs. ( so you can use the funds to build a bigger strike to kill the enemy at your control )

with Defense Mobilization . lets say a player has 10bil defense. a war kicks off. he/she is not targeted in the first wave from the enemy . he then masses the enemy drops his strike to 500mil . later that week he sees an enemy with a 7bil strike and rising. he decides ..........well having 10bil defense to get killed vs 7bil . at least after their second wave ill have some defense to salvage as well as slowing the enemy strikes down.

The enemy masses his 7bil defense , he logs in during the massing . and decides have the other 30% of his defense guard against the attacks .. now the enemy thinks he still has a massed defense . they continue hunting his assassins...... Surprise they get repelled and suffer greater loses then if he still had the massed defense , which may force the enemy to withdraw their attack .

Now the guy has 3.4bil defense 100% as first line of defense 0% as reserve .

he starts to think . hmm . Feint guard and salvage some stronger weapons for weak ones , maybe change my defense bonus into income or strike . hmm .( random example )

he decides to try a feint guard buy selling 700mil defense action worth of weapons and guards with 75% of his defense. ( 3.4bil-700mil )x .75= guarding with ~ 2bil defense action . ( but in reality his reserves are unarmed ) this guy decides to use the salvaged defense weapons as resources to arm up or war funds etc . ( random example )

I saw Nomad had an idea about attack weapons or attack troops being transfered to defense troops .
This idea would go hand in hand with his as well as giving defense action more strategic use during wars .

by Nomad Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:50 am

Admins idea is what he has put in the reset server.

I'm ok with your idea, but it needs a cost involved as right now it doesnt have one. Also some limits. Can I build a 20 bill defense and then only activate 10 bill of it? How about a 30 bill def and only activate 10 bill of it?

by Manleva Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:33 am

I can see some sense in this proposal although I have to disagree with Nomad that there needs to be a cost involved as such.

I think that the intent here is more along the lines of being able to order some of your defense forces to stay in the barracks rather than man their normal positions.

Of course If you were to order say 50% of your defensive force to stay in the barracks then I would expect to see only 50% of your defensive power used when calculating the outcome.

by Nomad Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:22 am

Manleva wrote:I can see some sense in this proposal although I have to disagree with Nomad that there needs to be a cost involved as such.

I think that the intent here is more along the lines of being able to order some of your defense forces to stay in the barracks rather than man their normal positions.

Of course If you were to order say 50% of your defensive force to stay in the barracks then I would expect to see only 50% of your defensive power used when calculating the outcome.

So you dont think their should be a cost for having 3, 4, 5, or more standing defenses already build and enabled? They why even bother having training facilities or weapons factories? In a war how effective will it be to bring down your opponents def just to see it completely back to normal the next round? and again, and again?

Think this through fully. There are some large army sizes out there, and some massive banks and incomes. You really want someone to be able to have a def ranked 1, and the same defensive strength in reserves 3, 4, or 5 times over? I mean worst case senerio, your looking at running out of AT/ST before you can break someones defense "fully".

With no limitations nor costs, I see this idea removing the usefulness and stratagy involved with training facilites, weapons factories, and ST useage.

More specificly to the reasoning or logic behind a cost,,,,, your able to keep multiple defenses "hidden" or unkillable/untouchable,,,,, For free?

by Lord Ishurue Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:24 am

Nomad wrote:
Manleva wrote:I can see some sense in this proposal although I have to disagree with Nomad that there needs to be a cost involved as such.

I think that the intent here is more along the lines of being able to order some of your defense forces to stay in the barracks rather than man their normal positions.

Of course If you were to order say 50% of your defensive force to stay in the barracks then I would expect to see only 50% of your defensive power used when calculating the outcome.

So you dont think their should be a cost for having 3, 4, 5, or more standing defenses already build and enabled? They why even bother having training facilities or weapons factories? In a war how effective will it be to bring down your opponents def just to see it completely back to normal the next round? and again, and again?

Think this through fully. There are some large army sizes out there, and some massive banks and incomes. You really want someone to be able to have a def ranked 1, and the same defensive strength in reserves 3, 4, or 5 times over? I mean worst case senerio, your looking at running out of AT/ST before you can break someones defense "fully".

With no limitations nor costs, I see this idea removing the usefulness and stratagy involved with training facilites, weapons factories, and ST useage.

More specificly to the reasoning or logic behind a cost,,,,, your able to keep multiple defenses "hidden" or unkillable/untouchable,,,,, For free?

lets say u have 20billion defense with 500k troops with 500k weapons . u decide to defend with 50% ( 10bil Defense and 250k troops with 250k weapons )

we mass your defense , then hunt your assassins then assassinate your covert .

before massing you our recon showed u had 500k defense troops and 500k weapons, but the assault logs showed only half of our recon report.

b4 doing destruction mission we decide to sab the remaining weapons ending with u only having 50k defense weapons and 250k defense troops .

Troops in barracks they can still be assassinated but instead of the 3.5%-4.5% killed it would be 1.5- 2% killed .
Does that have a little more risk and balance ?

by Manleva Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:07 am

@nomad What I was suggesting was not that you could have a number of standing defenses. Instead you would still only have 1 defense force however you could have the ability to send a percentage of the force to man the battlements while keeping some in reserve.

Spying would still show the full defensive force but not what percentage an attacker would meet when making a full frontal assault.

Now I know there are holes in it especially with Sab / Ass. I think that LI is now trying to address this. I would expect it to be much harder to Sab/Ass in a war scenario simply because a defense should be more active in protecting against this sort of action than they would normally be in peaceful times.

by Lord Ishurue Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:57 pm

Manleva wrote:@nomad What I was suggesting was not that you could have a number of standing defenses. Instead you would still only have 1 defense force however you could have the ability to send a percentage of the force to man the battlements while keeping some in reserve.

Spying would still show the full defensive force but not what percentage an attacker would meet when making a full frontal assault.

Now I know there are holes in it especially with Sab / Ass. I think that LI is now trying to address this. I would expect it to be much harder to Sab/Ass in a war scenario simply because a defense should be more active in protecting against this sort of action than they would normally be in peaceful times.

Yes . like you did in your suggestion , trying to cover the holes .

The main idea is a lot of players dont like building very large defenses . my reason is the salvage-ability of defense . u can only sell the defense weapons to gain resources for your strike building as well as making an excellent war exp target for your enemy ..

lets say i build 8 days of economy in defense. ( i have ~ 27bil eco )
8 x 27bil = 216bil in defense . 216bil/633k = 341k armed supers with MBT.

war exp . just the supers alone . lets assume the enemy leaves me with 80k . 341k-80k = 261k supers.
261k x 200 = 52,200,000 million war exp gained now for weapons (261k x 308k ) x 0.0002 = 16,077,600 war exp gained from the MBTs

52,200,000 + 16,077,600 = 68,277,600 war exp my enemy gained from massing my defense .

now lets say those massable resources were put into spies and assassins instead

261k x 633k = 165,213,000,000 billion .

(now lets assume i had planed to have 7 days strike 8 days defense. totaling to 661k total supers. 661k x 1.4 = 925k spies . 925k x 0.65 = 600k assassins . )

1 spy and assassin cost 220k ( 175k UU cost = 45k training cost )
165,213,000,000/220k = 751k . 751k spy to assassin allocation . 751k x 0.3934 = 296k assassins
751k-296k = 455k spies ( 455k X 0.65 = 296k )

455k extra spies
296k extra assassins.

751k x 60 = 45,060,000 war exp my enemy gains from killing my extra spies and assassins. but with spies and assassins . i can assassinate defenses or enemy covert . with sabbing i can sab the enemy to make assaulting cost even cheaper .

in short i have more control over my loses in spies and assassins then i do with my defense unless their is some sort of % mobilization added in .

massing a defense vs strike even if the strike breaks even he/she still be profitable in the end with War exp .

both the attacker and defender have the same weapon. and each lose 100k supers. ( the weapons War EXP cancel each other out. )

100k Attack supers = 100k x 80 = 8million war exp
100k defense supers = 100k x 200 = 20million war exp

(20million/8million)x 100 = 250% more profitable war exp wise during a break even defense massing in which strike vs defense

power per cost 261k DSs vs 466k spies & 296k assassins (depends on your bonus point allocation & Techs. )

261k x (11k x 1.43) = 4,105,530,000 total power increase from defense .
Weapon salvage-ability ( lets say during a war i sell my defense MBT for 60k APCs )
(261k x 184,800 ) - ( 261k x 60k) = 32,572,800,000 salvage-able kuwal which can be used for strike teams .

466k x ( 5800x ( 1.82 + 0.72) ) = 6,865,112,000 total power increase from covert.
Spies salvage-ability . ( lets assume during the war the UU prices drop from 175k to a low 130k )
( 466k x 130k ) - ( 466k x 20,206 ) = 51,164,004,000 salvage-able kuwal which can be used for strike teams

assassins
296k x (5800x1.5) = 2,575,200,000 total power increase from assassins
assassin Salvage-ability.
(296k x 130k)- (296k x 20,206) = 32,499,024,000 salvage-able kuwal which can be used for strike teams .

32,499,024,000 + 51,164,004,000 = 83,663,028,000 Salvage - able kuwal from Spy/ assassin investment . vs

32,572,800,000 salvage-able kuwal from defense. ( i swaped MBT for APC in the example , cuz the defense supers still should not go waste by swapping for knives . )

yes the defense power of 4.1bil can hold back/ destroy 100'sbillion worth of enemy strike investment . The reason i didnt add that was cuz u can say the same with the salvaged kuwal from Spy/ Assassin investment . IE use that kuwal to destroy enemy strikes defenses etc .

Yes defense does slow down the enemy strike teams . ITs just some players including me would rather be the boxer then the punching bag . an Update which provides more control in defense rather then it being a wal , would be very appealing .

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