Change to Sabotage and Assassination Missions

Talking with admin he says he has 2 main ideas. I will post them but I am more for the other as it gives some better choices for newer players.

1. (07:36:21) admin: one where we literally have it work like assault, so assassination => kills some assassins on both sides + whatever you were targeting, sab same story except with spies and weapons

2. (07:37:24) admin: other where we tweak numbers and you can sab even below power but then again you have some chance to fail (but fail won't mean 75% lost, anymore)

I would like to see #2. Mainly as it allows anyone to sab anyone.
I think it should work like anything else

bass losses:
atker = 5%
defender = 4%

$adjustment = (defendercovertaction/attackercovertaction) ^0.5;

This takes how much stronger someone is compared to the other person and changes the losses accordingly.
Now other things that came up

1. failure rate, you can't succeed 100% of the time.
1a. If player is on normal and you send enough, you have a chance of being seen but won't fail.
1b. If player is on realm alert, the chance of being seen goes up, a chance of failing.
1bi. % for fail yet to be set, I would say something like 10-20% is enough

2. Oversab
2a. this should be changed, so that if you send a % more then you need you kill more weapons.
2ai. Maybe 40%+

I am sure I missed something, I kept getting distracted with phone calls at work.

Something else that needs to be looked into is
K.I.S.S
Keep It Simple Stupid

Its something someone shouldn't have to do 4 calculations to send spies.
It should be 2 at most

1. figure out how many you need to send
2. figure out how many extra to send

yh work is annoying, i go afk all the time on some days

atm oversab/ass works on the principle since it's meant as a final mission, you lose 3 times the amount you destroy (I stress the "LOSE", meaning you send 60 assassins, lose 3, kill 1 unit)

By calculation are you talking mathematical operation? + - * /
or a group of steps?

well the least amount of calcs I can come up with is 3 (if we dont count the part where guessing realm alert as one calc):
1) your covert / (enemy covert * potential realm alert) = % of your power needed
2) % of your power needed * your total spies = number of spies to send
3) look at enemy armory and calc how many spies you need to send extra to deal max damage + number of spies to send = total spies to send

I not worried about the over sab/assn missions.

I am looking at the normal ones.

seaborgium wrote:I not worried about the over sab/assn missions.

I am looking at the normal ones.

that was the process for normal sab/ass

The one that we have used is

( enemy covert action / your covert action ) x 1.2 = # of spies needed
Then we would just add on so much to make sure we get some weapons.
Now to deal full damage we have never been able to figure it out.

now looking at what you have now.

1) your covert / (enemy covert * potential realm alert) = % of your power needed
what % of power?
2) % of your power needed * your total spies = number of spies to send
how can sending % of your spies work?
3) look at enemy armory and calc how many spies you need to send extra to deal max damage + number of spies to send = total spies to send
How do you look at the armory and calc how many extra spies to send?
What values do you use?

vaga wanna add here something?

well % of covert action, basically if you end up with 25%, then it means you need to send 25% of your covert action

step 2 would be to convert this 25% into amount of spies that make up 25% of your covert action, so if you have 1 mil spies trained, 25% of that would be 250k, hence you send 25% of your spies

look at enemy armory = find out total amount of armory points of enemy (sum of (amount of each weapon type x their power) )
find out how much is 4% of that since that is the maximum you can sab
4% = covert power you need to send
so find out how many of your spies are equal to this extra covert power

Since vaga forgot his pass and is too lazy to recover it, i'm gonna speak for him. There was a talk, and conclusion was that over sabbing does not include spy tech. My logic says this: tech improves spy power=> better spies. If my spies are better than the enemies, why this tech elimination? When I sab someone i send good spies. Why are my spies worse when I send more of them?

First reply to this topic

Admin wrote:atm oversab/ass works on the principle since it's meant as a final mission, you lose 3 times the amount you destroy (I stress the "LOSE", meaning you send 60 assassins, lose 3, kill 1 unit)

Working with Smog we have an idea, I am not sure how well it would work, however it does have merit.

0.04 (# of weapons) + ((Attacker Covert)/(Defenders covert) * 0.01

But the more we played with it we found that wouldn't work for people under sabbing or even 0ing people
so we played with the numbers a bit and we did find some random stuff that would work but it would be a 3 part thing and I wasn't happy with that so I kept looking.

I found this works well...

(# of weapons)*((Attacker Cover)/(Defenders covert) * 0.04)
Here is some data to go with it

Attacker has 25b
Defender has 1b
Defender has 1m weapons
Attack sabs all


Attacker has 22b
Defender has 5b
Defender has 1m weapons
Attack sabs 176k, 17.6%


Attacker has 10b
Defender has 5b
Defender has 1m weapons
Attack sabs 80k, 8%


Attacker has 1b
Defender has 25b
Defender has 1m weapons
Attack sabs 1600, .16%

I even did this

Attacker has 100k
Defender has 1b
Defender has 1m weapons
Attack sabs 4, .0004%

Now for the over sab.
I figure if we cap the above to 20% then it will take a few to sab away all weapons
using
Attacker has 5b
Defender has 1b
Defender has 1m weapons
It takes around 58 sabs to get to the point of no returns

So what we were thinking was this
oversab = (Attacker Covert)/(Defenders covert)
if ( oversab > 5 ) && ( oversab < 25 ) {
formula = (# of weapons)*.2
}else
formula = (# of weapons)*((Attacker Covert)/(Defenders covert) * 0.04)
}

I think I got that right...

Here is a simplified version. I think.
X=the number of weapons the enemy has
Y=attacker covert action
Z=defender covert action
formula is:
1. when Y > Z

0.04*X + (y/z*0.025
2. when Y < Z

y/z*0.025

the numbers in red are still to be discussed...

guys, please do not take this the wrong way ok,,, I do not speak mathese so I havn't a clue as to what you are talking about, I am grateful that those of you who can, are working on this. but I am as useful as tits on a boarhog in this convo. I do however appreciate what ya'll are doing & just wanted to say that when the final formula is worked out please post it with an explaintion that those of us who are math illiterate can hopefully understand...

Thanks for all your hard work everyone...

Maybe a quick full example can help:
You have a 50 billion covert action (y from the formula) and you want to sabotage a player who has:
1 million weapons in defense and strike (which means X from the formula is 1mil)
10 billion covert action (z form the formula)
---------------------------------------------------------
Your covert action is higher than your enemy's, so we're in the 1st case
0.04*X + y/z*0.025*X
0.04*X means you sab 4% of his weapons (1 million in our case) PLUS
y/z*0.025*X means that for each time your covert is higher than your opponent's(10x higher in our case) you destroy another 2.5%
so it would be: 4% from 1 mil + (2.5% * 10) from 1 mil =40k weps + 250k weps=290k weapons sabbed
In other words, if you just match his covert,(y=z), you'll destroy 6.5%
If you send enough spies to have a 2x higher covert, (y=2z) you'll destroy 4% + 2*2.5%=9% of the enemies weapons.
And so on... I hope this helps.

SABOTAGE SHOULD BE FOR EVERYONE, EVEN SMALL PLAYERS
I believe sabbing and assassinations shouldnt be restricted to the biggest players. I believe that all players should be able to use it. Even if it means that they have more losses than big, high-tech players.

Smaller players should be also able to use it against bigger players, even if their action is lower than the opponents action. However if they have weaker tech, they should lose more than what they destroy. And if they have a better tech, they should destroy more than they lose, even if their action is lower than the opponents action. I'd like them to work more like assaults work now.

A small modern army facing a large backward army will have less casualties than the backward army. This is how assaults work already. Sabs and assassinations should work like that too.

SABOTAGE SHOULDN'T REQUIRE TRAINING FROM ELITE PLAYERS OF ADERAN WARS
Let's face reality. What is the percentage of players who can use sabotage and assassination without having to be taught by others how to use it?
It's very small precentage. Also new alliances have poor chances of being good at this, as they need to be taught by the superpowers.

That's why sabotage has to change, so that majority of players are able to use it without the need of being taught by veterans.
As it stands now, most people cannot use sabotage and never will, unless the system changes.


NEW SABOTAGE MISSION
Here is a suggestion for a sabotage mission, in which technology determines how effective your spies are, and action merely determines how vast the damage is done on both sides.

Higher tech = more kills less losses.
Higher action = more units are killed on both sides
When defending having a higher action will lead to spies being killed on both sides, instead of spies on attacking side and weapons for defending.

For example if each of your spies is 2 times stronger than enemy spies, and you attack with 300.000 spies. Then you will lose 5% of spies, thats 15.000 spies and destroy weapons worth two times more than the value of your spies. Spy value can be based on average uu rates. Let's say a spy costs 420k. You lost spies worth 6.3 billion including training. You will destroy weapons worth 12.6 billion.

If defender has more spy action than you, even if his spies are still 2 times weaker than yours, then you will fail to sabotage weapons, but instead your spies will fight enemy spies, and since you lose 15.000 spies, you will kill 30.000 enemy spies, because your spies are 2 times more skilled than enemy spies.

This means that if someone with a smaller action sabotages you, you will not lose any weapons, but some of your spies will die. The ratio of value you lose and kill is based on technology of both opponents. This can be capped, so that a big player cannot destroy 10 times more than a newbie.

In both what smog and I posted everyone can sab. That we all agree on.

ok, read through it and it looks ok except for two apparent issue (well ok, one, the other is an issue depending on the person you ask):

1) If the defender got asswiped and has little to no covert left, to make this simple, let's assume they have ZERO covert.
Do I understand correctly I would only need to send 1 spy to reach that 20% limit on oversab?

2) A 20% kill cap with few losses will result in this becoming the new big players toy since (after wiping out spies/assassins) it will be efficient, good kill ratio, with little AT/CT/ST cost requirement, basically this one is linked to 1)

well first thing, there was a HIGH cost in getting rid of the covert units.
2nd if there no spies whats protecting the weapons?

only if you were actually removing them, for all I care maybe def is already gone, assassins/spies got hunted (assuming i'd add hunt spies mission)/ spies got assassinated anyway and now you're sabbing

so that high cost part is very relative

I am just not seeing it that like in the others you send 20 spies and they wipe out 300k weapons.

lets face it, that brings us right back to teh system we got now.

Admin wrote:only if you were actually removing them, for all I care maybe def is already gone, assassins/spies got hunted (assuming i'd add hunt spies mission)/ spies got assassinated anyway and now you're sabbing

so that high cost part is very relative

I am just not seeing it that like in the others you send 20 spies and they wipe out 300k weapons.

If your going to negate all the time, planning, kewal, AT, ST, CT, UU, and everything else to get them to this situation of 0 def, 0 spies, and 0 assassins,,,,,, then this entire discussion is pointless if you ask me.

Upon analyzing the first 120 players, which are, IMO, the most active, i came to this average stats:
6 bil Strike action
11 bil Defensive action
9 bil Covert action
4 bil Assassin action
Also, considering MA for def and stike, you'd need about 580k weapons.
In order to reduce someone's defense to 0 from these stats you need to:
1st choice: Assassinate assassins. Not hunt, because you need to take out the def first, including weapons, and the purpose is to sab. So assassinate assassins. Lots of ST and CT required. Not a job for one man, not enough CT.
2nd choice: Assassinate spies. Lots of assassins, ST and CT required. Again, not a job for one man, not enough CT.
So, how dumb or unlucky has that player to be in order for you to sab him?

seaborgium wrote:lets face it, that brings us right back to teh system we got now.

Disagreed, there's a number of objectives we're trying to achieve with changing the system

Nomad wrote:If your going to negate all the time, planning, kewal, AT, ST, CT, UU, and everything else to get them to this situation of 0 def, 0 spies, and 0 assassins,,,,,, then this entire discussion is pointless if you ask me.

No it isn't because I'm pointing out a serious flaw, well it is a flaw in my opinion, of cost-free destroying. And for some weird reason I am not sure everyone realizes it completely. (Though I have to admit I haven't yet simulmassed an account so I dont have the exact numbers how much it would really cost, only my estimates)

As of now the overall battle system is as follows:
- You have 4 stats, att/def/cov/ass
- def/cov/ass are a form of triangular defence, each protects the others
- even if one is wiped out, the others can get destroyed much more easily but still there is a fair amount of turns/units required. obviously the kill ratio favors the attacker very much
- wiping out the def carries a slight disadvantage (10-20%) for the attacker in the strike missions. With covert and sab this is however nigh impossible to do so here's this thread to fix it

The proposed change would result in the following:
Before, target with little to no assassin power (after hunt assassin mission):
- Send 10k assassins, each time killing 10k units - losses, 15-20 times

After:
- Send 5 times of whatever assassins are left, each time killing 20%, after 10 missions, 10% of target units are left.

Vaga has been dead obsessed with using oversab despite me telling and precicely explaining repeatedly that it's a very special type of attack that was never meant to be used by default. He ignores that happily and still obsesses about the cost of using it every time he goes sabbing.
This is the same reason why it will not be the norm of sabbing 4-6% of weapons, but usually around 14-18% (if the cap is at 20%)

Negating would be saying no, you can read any of my posts, not once have I said no to this idea, I was pointing out possible issues which were so far only brushed aside, not necessarily disproven.
Sea already answered the first question that it basically is possible that you send a tiny amount of units and destroy 20% of the target
Whether or not the second question can also be answered affirmatively will need to be checked by a simulation (or if someone can be bothered to run the numbers before monday)

Overall I still like it, is also easy to code

Admin wrote:

Nomad wrote:If your going to negate all the time, planning, kewal, AT, ST, CT, UU, and everything else to get them to this situation of 0 def, 0 spies, and 0 assassins,,,,,, then this entire discussion is pointless if you ask me.

No it isn't because I'm pointing out a serious flaw, well it is a flaw in my opinion, of cost-free destroying. And for some weird reason I am not sure everyone realizes it completely. (Though I have to admit I haven't yet simulmassed an account so I dont have the exact numbers how much it would really cost, only my estimates)

Please help me understand how having to remove all defense, all assassins, and all spies = COST FREE?

If there is NO defense, farming is free. Whats the difference?

Admin wrote:only if you were actually removing them, for all I care maybe def is already gone, assassins/spies got hunted (assuming i'd add hunt spies mission)/ spies got assassinated anyway and now you're sabbing

so that high cost part is very relative

I am just not seeing it that like in the others you send 20 spies and they wipe out 300k weapons.

how about this:
use smog and sea's calculus method
and
each spy desroys no more than ONE weapon.
?

Yeah i am obsessd with the oversab. Hope to catch u on msn and explain it better. No point in explain it now. See ya on msn