Free Turns
+8
kingkongfan1
seaborgium
ian
october_17
Nomad
Admin
Manleva
Kenzu
12 posters
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Re: Free Turns
I was thinking more Omega LOL
Nomad- Alliance Leader
- ID :
Number of posts : 4259
Location : Everywhere and nowhere at all.
Registration date : 2008-12-17
Re: Free Turns
but they are push overs
but that style of play isn't something i want to see coming to AW.
but that style of play isn't something i want to see coming to AW.
seaborgium- 2nd in Command
- Number of posts : 2551
Registration date : 2009-10-06
Re: Free Turns
that style of play isn't something that would be possible in AWseaborgium wrote:but they are push overs
but that style of play isn't something i want to see coming to AW.
while I do admit, and I think many others would also have to, it would spur activity and make the server more lively.
Though, there would be 1 possible solution:
Assault mission, both sides lose 4% units. So when you mass, you can already have a profitable mass just by going for the defense. compared to wiping out the rest of the account, you'll deal already massive damage while only requiring a fraction of the turns. (massing a def, 20-30 hits tops, 150 AT/ST; hunting assassins easily 40-60 attacks, 200+ AT's/1k ST's+)
Re: Free Turns
Admin wrote:reducing losses wouldn't help anything since all it would result in is that people would raise their defenses
now you can hold 3-5 bil kuwal with a 5 bil def, reducing losses to half means people will just double the defs, and we'll be right where we started
there would have to be some added benefit for the attacker which doesn't necessarily cause the defender to lose something. (i.e. attacking active players with farm missions will create a reputation of your realm that "no one messes with us" sligthly boosting recruits into your realm [total up] for some time for each attack you make)
I think that you are missing my point somewhat, I am not suggesting that it is just the losses that need to be reduced because that alone is not the answer. Perhaps some questions will help to clarify.
Lets take the example of 2 players. Player A has a 1 Bil Strike and Player B has a 1 Bil Defense. Both players have the same approx income.
1. What will be the break even point for player A to Farm Player B in Kuwal or How much Kuwal will Player B have to have out for Player A to cover their losses?
2. How many Turns will it take before the above break even point is reached?
What I am trying to suggest is that at some reasonable point in time everyone should be able reach this break even point. This is a hypothetical point only but it should be what the mechanics are based on. More active players who log in more often and bank will always be under it and nothing can be done for that. Less active players will build larger defenses to counter or extend the break even point which should be an available option. To discourage excessive Strikes and Defenses Alter AE somewhat and add an upkeep cost for military units.
As it is AE is calculated on Total Population and reduces income. Weapons Upkeep adds a cost based on the weapons that a player has. So why not add an Upkeep Cost based on Unit Make up meaning that those players who want to build accounts that are Excessively Skewed in a particular direction can do so but it will cost them to do it.
Manleva- Aderan Assassin
- ID : 999
Alliance : TMI
Age : 66
Number of posts : 659
Location : New Zealand
Registration date : 2009-08-17
Re: Free Turns
Not sure how about you, but I think no matter what game rules, a lot of people will simply make enough defenses that they dont get farmed (or more activity), and in games where defenses are useless, they simply mass the crap out of other people
Don't think there is a magical potion for this problem.
Don't think there is a magical potion for this problem.
Kenzu- Alliance Leader
- Age : 37
Number of posts : 3034
Registration date : 2008-12-03
Re: Free Turns
Admin wrote:that style of play isn't something that would be possible in AWwhile I do admit, and I think many others would also have to, it would spur activity and make the server more lively.seaborgium wrote:but they are push overs
but that style of play isn't something i want to see coming to AW.
Though, there would be 1 possible solution:
Assault mission, both sides lose 4% units. So when you mass, you can already have a profitable mass just by going for the defense. compared to wiping out the rest of the account, you'll deal already massive damage while only requiring a fraction of the turns. (massing a def, 20-30 hits tops, 150 AT/ST; hunting assassins easily 40-60 attacks, 200+ AT's/1k ST's+)
I have to disagree with that statement.
Look at Lord Ishurue and his actions presently. If TIE or TM joined TOC in the present state that style of play would be very possible. Its possible for Ishurue to do it now on small scale, so inturn it would be possible to do large scale if it were not for the present balance of power.
As it stands now Lord Ishurue has the appearance of 3 alliance and well over 100 accounts backing his actions. (I'm not saying all of TOC backs him, just saying since there is no public rebuttle, and there is public backing that is how it looks). He picks accounts that are easy kills for his account set up, and ones he knows can not and will not fight back unless by chance they intend on totally destroying their already crippled accounts. His alliance, and the Empire he calls home seem to have no issue with his actions nor intend to pressure him to stop them. Therefore he has no limitations on his actions other then his own self imposed restrictions.
Let the full bulk of the active playerbase fall into the same focus and that style of play can be just as possible in AW as it is in any other game.
Special Agent 47- Aderan Assassin
- ID : http://www.aderanwars.com/stats.php?id=427
Alliance : [ The_Marauders ]
Number of posts : 556
Location : Preparing for my next mission.
Registration date : 2009-08-22
Re: Free Turns
- Spoiler:
- Kenzu wrote:Hello everyone, I'd like to address the free turns update, which allows people to get +500 Attack Turns for free without effort.
Here are the reasons why I am against this update:
No updates should be made if majority is against them. Let people decide
We had surveys on other things, but this update gets done after a guy suggests it, without proper forum discussion, without asking what AW players think about it. I say people should see both viewpoints, why it should be made, and also why it shouldnt be made, and then vote if they want it or not, just like in previous surveys.
This update rewards laziness
This update rewards laziness, as people who are too lazy to farm and even people who log in once a week, can benefit a lot from this update, because all they need to do is once a week change all 16 MT to 4 MR, and change 4 MR to 4*125 AT (500 AT), which they can easily sell on galactic market for 15.000.000.000 kuwal. Also, new players can grow extremely fast, if they get additional 15 billion each week, and reaching 10.000 unit production will not come with the feeling of accomplishment anymore.
There is less incentive to use the trade center
Trade center was made to enable people to trade, with this update, much less people will be trading there than before. Already before people complained that AT are too expensive (and thus farming margins too low), and before they couldnt get free AT with MT. Now they can, and thus less people will use trade center to trade. people who have SS will never sell AT on the trade center anymore, instead they can sell them for the same price on GM, and use all MT to get AT. Selling AT at the trade center would be a big mistake, which means that AT price on market center will not fall with the supply of demand, and AT on market center will be slightly overpriced.
There is less incentive to vote for Aderan Wars
Since players can get +500 free AT each week, in addition to 336 AT they always received. They now produce AT at the speed of 249%. Voting gives 54 AT per day. If before it could double the number of AT you get, now it increases your AT production only by 50%. Obviously less people will vote now. (Arguing that with market people can get more AT is bullshit, because these AT are expensive and not everyone can afford them, AND those who don't want to farm, will get free AT anyway to sell them to others, which will obviously decrease the value of AT in the near future.)
Calculation, AT per week:
regular AT: 48*7=336
free AT: 16/4*125=500
There will be less new players joining
As less people vote, AW will drop in ranks and less people will register on Aderan Wars.
Thank you for this sabotage!
Attack Turns lose value
If before AT were rising at an average rate of 2% per day, the price of AT will halt for a long time, or even fall sharply as soon as players realise that there are simply too many AT out there to farm for the same profit.
People will have to farm for less, and attack turns will fall in price, profit margins per hit will fall too. People who worked hard to get many AT, will lose a lot of value. Doubling the number of AT serverwide will decrease AT prices by 50% to reach market equilibrium. Considering the price rigidity, it might take 2 or 3 weeks until the price stabilises, and of course inflation will counteract the price fall of AT. The value of AT will fall much more than the price of AT.
There will be less incentive to farm
In the near future, when prices stabilise, the profits will be lower than now. If now someone has 50 million profit per hit, and each 3 months the profit doubles, after 3 months he wants 100 million profit, because future kuwal is worth less than present kuwal, but if in 3 months he will still earn 50 million, he will be upset, and some farmers will stop farming.
There will be less people donating
Since 1$ gets you 300 AT, and now people will get more AT per person, there will be less incentive to donate.
Even less new players due to less advertising
Since there will be less donations, there will be less advertising for aderan wars, and thus less new players joining.
--------------
Additionaly a couple words: People wanted more AT, and their wish has been granted already long time ago, now people can double their production if they take the 5 minutes to vote each day. It isn't a good idea to destroy the value of AT even more. Considering it is only a minority of players who vote each day, most people don't seem to care much about getting more AT anyway. Of course, no one will be against getting more AT, if they don't think about the backlash that it produces.
Equally a government could ask its citizens. Do you want the government to start printing money and pay out 1000$ to each person each month? I guess the majority would vote for such change. And it might work well for a couple days, but 2 times more money doesn't equal two times more goods, and all it would lead to is a devaluation of the dollar. After 1 month, people would simply have to pay 2 times more $ to buy anything, and they would have to pay 2 times more $ to import anything.
Of course, even though it would be a stupid decision people would make, I believe it should be the people who decide, and not simply the government start printing money like crazy without asking anyone.
I have exposed admin for the little spineless weasel which he is, too weak to resist the pressure of a couple guys and making updates which defy logic, without even asking people if they want it!
@admin
You don't see very far down the road do you?
Your update increases the number of attack turns players have. More attack turns will decrease their value. It's basic economics. Get that through your head you damn fool.
btw: admin doesn't think what I said to him to be offensive.
- Spoiler:
- Kenzu wrote:Before update:
regular AT: 48*1*7=336
voting: 18*3*7=378
336 AT for people who don't vote (90% of all players)
714 AT for people who vote (10% of all players)
AVERAGE: 407.4 per player
AFTER UPDATE
update doubles AT production per day +336
update allows free AT through MT 16/4*125= +500
AT production on all Aderan Wars has increased
FROM
407.4 per player
TO
1243 per player
I was unaware that another update has been done, namely doubling regular AT production.
This means the problem is even more serious. Now there are AT are produced at the speed of 300% for the same amount of farms.
Thanks for destroying the game.
You don't need to be a genius to realize that it will bring the AT-UU-Kuwal prices out of balance. And the value of AT will fall a lot.
Admin thinks the AT prices are overpriced, but they aren't. Right now they are in balance. Same number of AT get sold to the trade center as they are bought. The only reason why AT prices increase is because there is a hyperinflation of kuwal and uu. The kuwal and uu that inactives produce increases quite fast, because there are more inactives, and because people who quit now, are much bigger than people who quit half a year ago.
One month ago I farmed for 200 million kuwal and raided roughly 1500-200 uu.
Now I farm 300-400 million with ease, and raid 2000-2500 uu easily.
(I farm more by judging the numbers, but the farmed value is the same, because populations and incomes increased in 1 month)
AT prices are just fine. They are in balance, because half people sell them, and half the people buy them. And that's how it should be.
AT prices are too high only for people who either don't have time or unwilling to farm for such profit margins, or simply don't know how to farm profitably. They should sell their turns to people who can make enough profits. That's how it should be. But they are ok for people who buy them on the trade center.
It's wrong to be intervening in market prices and try to change AT prices artificially by dumping them on AW.
as a matter of observation, it has been 7 days & AW has not imploded as was feared, I have been monitering prices on the GM, & there has been very little fluxuation in the prices of any of the resources after the change...
19 November 2010: NEW FEATURES:
The market now allows to receive 100 Attack Turns in exchange for 1 Market Reserve
The market now allows to receive 50 Supply Turns in exchange for 1 Market Reserve
Balancing:
Weapon Upkeep reduced by 25%
Attack Turn Production raised to 2 per turn
since the above in red is no longer in effect,( well I assume everyone else is back to getting 1 AT per turn), can it be removed from the update?
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: Free Turns
kingkongfan1 wrote:
Attack Turn Production raised to 2 per turn
since the above in red is no longer in effect,( well I assume everyone else is back to getting 1 AT per turn), can it be removed from the update?
Bug maybe?
Why was no notification given if it was changed?
Nomad- Alliance Leader
- ID :
Number of posts : 4259
Location : Everywhere and nowhere at all.
Registration date : 2008-12-17
Re: Free Turns
bug, but how it happened i got no clue.
I mean I know what the cause was, but how the cause came to exist is a mystery
I mean I know what the cause was, but how the cause came to exist is a mystery
Re: Free Turns
Admin wrote:bug, but how it happened i got no clue.
I mean I know what the cause was, but how the cause came to exist is a mystery
oh, my mistake, I thought it had been removed, I apologize for my assumption...
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: Free Turns
Kenzu wrote:Admin wrote:ian 2 things
kenzu got called the same combination of words by someone, nomad i think though dont crucify me if i'm wrong, and while he demanded a punishment, I deemed it not to be offensive enough to warrant a ban. I will not deem it anything else now just because someone directs it at me.
Yes I should consider this a different case if one would adopt a stance of "dont argue with mods", but then again, I have no need for that, people like nimras would most likely I bet.
spineless weasel also comes close, but I decided against a ban for you because of the age of the people involved. Had I not known for a fact that both of you are "mature" adults but that there's a chance a small kid might be the target of this, I might have looked into it.
anyways thanks for the idea of cummulative voting over time i might look into that.
It was 125 for a while, then dropped it to 100 so instead of a 20.5% profit per kuwal spent to buy at's on the trade center you only need to hit a 17% profit to earn more than the AT's you get for free would get you.
Considering the usual profit I aim for when hitting 0 def's is around 40-50% then I think either way it'd be far away from the minimum profit margin required.
But what you didnt consider is that with this update less people will sell their AT on the trade center. In fact, everyone who has SS and wants to sell AT, should simply get all free AT he can and sell them on galactic market, and people who could make some money selling AT, now can make much money easier by simply getting free AT and then farming without much care.
AT price will fall on trade center ONLY IF, more AT get sold to trade center, than bought. You ignored looking at the perspective of the AT seller:
AT seller sells 150 AT and gets 3,547,103,680 kuwal.
instead, he could use the 1 MT to buy 1/4 MR and get 31.25 AT
If he farms/raids randomly, he must steal at least:
3,547,103,680/181.25*10= 195.702.272 kuwal
to make more money by getting free AT than by selling them on the market.
I tell you, go raid randomly and you will raid units worth much more than 196 million.
now that it has been changed to +100 AT, you have to steal at least 202,7 million kuwal (1160 UU).
You only need to steal 203 million or 1160 UU per hit to earn more by getting free AT than selling AT in the trade center
I can raid 2000 UU with closed eyes.
There is no reason why anyone should be selling AT to trade center, and that's why there is no reason that trade center AT prices will fall because of this.
AT prices will fall however because of some other reason, namely that there are too many of them, and once farms pay out much less kuwal, people will be willing to sell them for a much lower price.
I was right.
Look at this:
AT prices fell as I expected.
You can buy 10 AT in the trade center for only
186.2 million
and you sell 10 AT for:
174 million
Current rates:
Kuwal Untrained Units Turns
[ 2,700,450,000 / 2,610,435,000 ] [ 17,550 / 16,965 ] [ 150 / 145 ]
Comparison to 20 Nov prices:
AT seller sold 150 AT in the trade center got 3,547,103,680 kuwal.
236.5 million per AT
now he gets only 174 million per AT
What does it mean?
AT price in the trade center has collapsed, and fell by 26.4% within 2 weeks in absolute terms.
Considering that without a change AT usually rises by a couple percent each week, AT price is now in reality 30-35% lower than what it should be without a change.
I rest my case
Kenzu- Alliance Leader
- Age : 37
Number of posts : 3034
Registration date : 2008-12-03
Re: Free Turns
trade center prices changed but for a different reason.
Trade of ST for resources do not take out resources out of the market anymore, they did before.
since it meant that there'd less and less resources in total on the market eventually it'd drain the market completely, and also one of the reasons why it got to the 3.7 bil price which had nothing to do with reality.
But according to your logic, in 2 weeks it should drop to around 2.2 bil kuwal.
Trade of ST for resources do not take out resources out of the market anymore, they did before.
since it meant that there'd less and less resources in total on the market eventually it'd drain the market completely, and also one of the reasons why it got to the 3.7 bil price which had nothing to do with reality.
But according to your logic, in 2 weeks it should drop to around 2.2 bil kuwal.
Re: Free Turns
See Kenzu, isn't it nice when things get changed and not communicated?
You say things you believe is correct and its not and often make yourself look foolish. Its why ALL changes should be communicated, not just a few
You say things you believe is correct and its not and often make yourself look foolish. Its why ALL changes should be communicated, not just a few
Nomad- Alliance Leader
- ID :
Number of posts : 4259
Location : Everywhere and nowhere at all.
Registration date : 2008-12-17
Re: Free Turns
- Spoiler:
- Kenzu wrote:Kenzu wrote:Admin wrote:ian 2 things
kenzu got called the same combination of words by someone, nomad i think though dont crucify me if i'm wrong, and while he demanded a punishment, I deemed it not to be offensive enough to warrant a ban. I will not deem it anything else now just because someone directs it at me.
Yes I should consider this a different case if one would adopt a stance of "dont argue with mods", but then again, I have no need for that, people like nimras would most likely I bet.
spineless weasel also comes close, but I decided against a ban for you because of the age of the people involved. Had I not known for a fact that both of you are "mature" adults but that there's a chance a small kid might be the target of this, I might have looked into it.
anyways thanks for the idea of cummulative voting over time i might look into that.
It was 125 for a while, then dropped it to 100 so instead of a 20.5% profit per kuwal spent to buy at's on the trade center you only need to hit a 17% profit to earn more than the AT's you get for free would get you.
Considering the usual profit I aim for when hitting 0 def's is around 40-50% then I think either way it'd be far away from the minimum profit margin required.
But what you didnt consider is that with this update less people will sell their AT on the trade center. In fact, everyone who has SS and wants to sell AT, should simply get all free AT he can and sell them on galactic market, and people who could make some money selling AT, now can make much money easier by simply getting free AT and then farming without much care.
AT price will fall on trade center ONLY IF, more AT get sold to trade center, than bought. You ignored looking at the perspective of the AT seller:
AT seller sells 150 AT and gets 3,547,103,680 kuwal.
instead, he could use the 1 MT to buy 1/4 MR and get 31.25 AT
If he farms/raids randomly, he must steal at least:
3,547,103,680/181.25*10= 195.702.272 kuwal
to make more money by getting free AT than by selling them on the market.
I tell you, go raid randomly and you will raid units worth much more than 196 million.
now that it has been changed to +100 AT, you have to steal at least 202,7 million kuwal (1160 UU).
You only need to steal 203 million or 1160 UU per hit to earn more by getting free AT than selling AT in the trade center
I can raid 2000 UU with closed eyes.
There is no reason why anyone should be selling AT to trade center, and that's why there is no reason that trade center AT prices will fall because of this.
AT prices will fall however because of some other reason, namely that there are too many of them, and once farms pay out much less kuwal, people will be willing to sell them for a much lower price.
I was right.
Look at this:
AT prices fell as I expected.
You can buy 10 AT in the trade center for only
186.2 million
and you sell 10 AT for:
174 million
Current rates:
Kuwal Untrained Units Turns
[ 2,700,450,000 / 2,610,435,000 ] [ 17,550 / 16,965 ] [ 150 / 145 ]
Comparison to 20 Nov prices:
AT seller sold 150 AT in the trade center got 3,547,103,680 kuwal.
236.5 million per AT
now he gets only 174 million per AT
What does it mean?
AT price in the trade center has collapsed, and fell by 26.4% within 2 weeks in absolute terms.
Considering that without a change AT usually rises by a couple percent each week, AT price is now in reality 30-35% lower than what it should be without a change.
I rest my case
1) I still do not see the harm in this...
2) I have SS & do not use the Trade Center, so I have noticed a slight drop in the cost of AT's on the GM, & still do not see the harm...
3) for the record, I still do not understand exactly what the fuss is here, prices fluxuate all the time on the market, & the game is still working just fine AFAIK,
kingkongfan1- Coalition Officer
- ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 56
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28
Re: Free Turns
kuwal...AT...UU
rock...paper...scissors?
( not that there should be some dice roll, or chance, but the value of the 3)
put checks and balances on the 3. There you have it.
rock...paper...scissors?
( not that there should be some dice roll, or chance, but the value of the 3)
put checks and balances on the 3. There you have it.
austin5650- Aderan Worker
- ID : 4529
Alliance : The Guild
Number of posts : 107
Location : Duke Letto's family restaurant.
Registration date : 2010-10-09
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