Personal War's issue

Hey.

I just want a record of my & Kenzu's discussions regarding the issue with Hai-shalud and his personal stance on farming (see other war's area).

So.. here is the ingame communications:

My Message to Kenzu

Hey buddy.

You might want to contact Hai-Shalud ASAP, as he's about ready to start declaring personal war's against some of your members who ve repeatedly ignored his requests to stop farming him while he gets reestablished on the game.

If he launches a personal war, and given your less than great efforts to contact him... TIE's stance will be that its a personal war, and noone should get involved. If WR were then to get involved, we d become involved as well.

So... it would be best if you 2 could chat and find a solution before this thing gets out of control....

Thanks

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Kenzu's Response:

hai shulud is a member of your alliance, either kick him out of the alliance if he doesnt represent your views, and then only he will be massed by WR if he dares to attack us, or if he masses WR members and doesnt get kicked out of TIE, then we will consider this an assault of TIE against TOC and act accordingly.

Besides, I am on vacation as I told you before. I was on MSN today for a couple hours, Hai Shulud didnt seem to want to talk, also I havent recieved anything from him recently.

Another thing is that he shouldnt threat anyone from TOC. If he doesnt want to get farmed, he can build a defense, but he cant expect that people wont farm him just because he is threatening them.

a hostile mission against any WR member is the invitation to be massed by all of TOC.

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My Response:

Your right, Hai shouldn't make threats to T.O.C.

However... its worth noting he has attempted to contact yourself and other WR members to try and arrange to not be farmed/come to a agreement while he gets his account in order since he's just rejoined Aderan Wars.

Consequently, it now rests in part on yourself & those WR members contacted to respond back to him and engage in a dialogue. If you don't you ll basically be ignoring him.... and if you ignore him... then what exactly do you expect him to do? Just accept whats happening and do nothing about it?

If something happens because he's kept being farmed, and not had any contact back from World Republic when he's previously contacted you... then WR will be partly to blame as well.

In such an event... World Republic will be far from innocent/ victims. Purposefully ignoring someone when you know it concerns a matter detrimental to that person's account, is a hostile act in itself since it prolongs the detrimental factors.

If Hai-shalud therefore takes matters into his own hands, after trying to contact yourself and other WR members... you only have yourselves to blame.

TIE's stance will be that any consequences of such an action, should be treated as a personal-conflict, since the farmers/WR will have deliberately ignored his attempts at communication - leaving him with only 2 choices to either accept whats being done, or to resort to other methods other than communication to make his point known.

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By all means take the actions of Hai-Shalud as the actions of The Imperium and a declaration of war by The Imperium if you want. I can say right now I won't be removing him from The Imperium.

Personally... I d say such a position would be absurd. Anyone with half a brain-cell - including your own members - will know that when The Imperium goes to war we don't send in a lone 2million army size player to launch a attack on WR. So... good luck selling that one to your members about The Imperium declaring war.

I suspect both they, and Mujengen... would have a problem with WR/TOC essentially declaring war on TIE based on the actions of a single TIE member who's previously already attempted to contact yourself/WR to find a solution.

You do know he's already made contact with Mujengen and spoke to Lurant Maximus right? I don't know the details of what was discussed, or what was said or if anything was agreed... but at least Mujengen responded back promptly to his attempts at contact.

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So, essentially TIE's stance is this:

If Hai's contacted INDIVIDUALS who's farming him and they keep farming him ignoring his requests not to be farmed... and he then acts against THOSE individuals we ll treat it as a personal vendetta. As long as Hai keeps his retaliation to those who chose to ignore him... as far as TIE's concerned its a personal issue and should be kept as that - with TIE, WR or TOC itself remaining uninvolved.

Should WR involve themselves in such an event.. TIE will intervene against WR.

If Hai starts launching a vendetta against innocents who ve done nothing to him in either WR/ Mujengen... TIE will treat that as him being a fool. In such an event, provided you contact us beforehand (simply because "future events" haven't happened yet so noone knows what the details of the situation will be) and we give the go ahead... then you can retaliate as a alliance how you like.

It would, however, be up to TIE whether we keep him in it or not.... and if thats deemed a declaration of war by TIE on WR/TOC... then so be it.

One thing is certain however: Your telling me you ll take Hai's actions as a declaration of war by TIE if we refuse to remove him from TIE, is completely absurd. TIE won't be intimidated that easily.... so I must kindly inform you that we are fully 100% happy for you to carry out that threat and essentially declare war on TIE.

Such an action would result in little to no internal disputes in TIE. Such an action however would result in considerable internal disputes within TOC - people would say you started the war, and would not be happy at being asked to support a war of aggression....

Its your call either way.

Regards

Ian

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Awaiting Kenzu's response.

Wait a second, is Kenzu really against letting a player grow in peace? Lets all ambush and turn farm the new player. Now Hai isn't a new player but with how long he was away, his account is much farther behind then most so we can classify him as NEW. If WR really wants to declare alliance war because a new player requests to not be farmed so heavily, I guess they changed even more then TIE has.

For me personally, Kenzu I think you starting an alliance war right now would be the biggest mistake you have ever done on this game.

Vesper wrote:Wait a second, is Kenzu really against letting a player grow in peace? Lets all ambush and turn farm the new player. Now Hai isn't a new player but with how long he was away, his account is much farther behind then most so we can classify him as NEW. If WR really wants to declare alliance war because a new player requests to not be farmed so heavily, I guess they changed even more then TIE has.

For me personally, Kenzu I think you starting an alliance war right now would be the biggest mistake you have ever done on this game.

I think it would be WR's version of the Suez Canal Crisis.... except The Imperium's not Egypt, but more like Russia/ The USA.

Too bad I cannot have more than 8 officers.
Maybe Vaako has some places left. He protects his officers. If force is the only thing people farming Hai Shulud respect ...

Goddamn it Kenzu. You are trying EVERYTHING you CAN to make a new TOC-TIE war. I did NOT join TOC to become a war target because of your ARROGANCE! Before I started playing this game I actually RESPECTED YOU! THIS IS GETTING ANNOYING!

SovietMan wrote:Goddamn it Kenzu. You are trying EVERYTHING you CAN to make a new TOC-TIE war. I did NOT join TOC to become a war target because of your ARROGANCE! Before I started playing this game I actually RESPECTED YOU! THIS IS GETTING ANNOYING!

I wonder how many others feel the same way. I wonder how many would feel this way if they visited the forums.

Let me make my own clarifications -

I declared publicly that I was back and requested kindly to be left alone for a mere 2 weeks while i tried to rebuild my account on the following thread - https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/personal-wars-treaties-f5/im-back-t1923.htm

You will see that Kenzu READ this thread and even POSTED. So we can all safely say that he had knowledge of this. Now you would think he would tell his members not to farm me for this duration.

I came back to the game on the 21st and here are my logs -

[26 Sep] 23:21 longdraft 2,562,461,850 Kuwal Stolen 10 1603 204 1,261,672,087 1,233,001,440 details
[26 Sep] 13:17 longdraft 1,210,852,280 Kuwal Stolen 10 1268 165 1,300,866,899 766,848,060 details
[26 Sep] 09:27 adrian 1,967,634,955 Kuwal Stolen 10 1032 171 1,458,892,157 802,897,920 details
[26 Sep] 02:46 buhcoreTheGreat 2,351,395,988 Kuwal Stolen 10 1452 171 1,425,461,619 788,823,090 details
[25 Sep] 19:29 Jack_Surgel 516,753,593 Kuwal Stolen 10 1727 119 750,861,928 874,782,480 details
[25 Sep] 10:36 adrian 1,799,880,192 Kuwal Stolen 10 979 175 1,486,408,707 801,823,275 details
[24 Sep] 23:39 jack5000 2,254,689,555 Kuwal Stolen 10 1706 219 2,279,144,461 788,318,685 details
[24 Sep] 01:48 Castravete 2,086,764,582 Kuwal Stolen 10 958 270 3,348,238,062 766,898,550 details
[22 Sep] 15:10 vaga 289,798,502 Kuwal Stolen 10 1184 178 5,693,796,383 498,794,175 details
[22 Sep] 14:12 Castravete 1,448,992,510 Kuwal Stolen 10 827 179 3,088,123,838 528,000,000 details

So let me make this very very very clear for EVERYONE -

FORGET WHAT IAN SAID, FORGET WHAT ANYONE HAS SAID! IF THIS FARMING CARRYS ON EVEN WHILE IM STILL TRYING TO BUILD A DEFENCE SO THAT I CAN PROTECT MY INCOME APPROPRIATELY I WILL DECLARE A PERSONAL WAR ON YOUR ENTIRE ALLIANCE.

I will not simply mass those who are farming me as this account was gutted when i left and its resources spread to the Imperium. Meaning i have a basic shell left which in turn means i cant go around massing the top 10 or even 30 players. HOWEVER i will quite happily start massing anyone that i think would give me a nice KD. TRUST ME when i say i WILL inflict a hell of a lot more damage than you think.

For those of you confused or think im mental - 2 things -

1) I dont have a problem with being farmed but THIS is plain vulturing! So once im back on my feet everything is fair game
2) NOTHING would give me more pleasure than being massed by WR - Because then I swear on my families life that i will not quit this game, or stop massing WR members till they disband and Kenzu himself apologises in a letter and posts it to me.

And if you think im kidding with number 2 - then you really really need to have a chat with someone who knows me from other games.

One last thing - I contacted Muj about Vaga's hit which was also unprofitable. I spoke to their 2iC who was surprisingly understanding and also very easy to talk to. I would like to congratulate Ish on his choice of leadership which seems to buck the trend of leadership in TOC overall. Ish has not got back to me yet but im hoping the issue is resolved and they will allow me 1 week of no hits to rebuild. I do not want compensation as i believe his hit was dont without any knowladge of my new defence or activity.

As to all other alliances/active people who read this - This also applies to you. PLEASE refrain from farming for FOR JUST 1 WEEK! MY patience is very low currently so if there is a mistake made please contact me ASAP.

Cheers

@ Hai. Kenzu actually posted on that thread:

Kenzu wrote:Welcome back!
If you dont want to be farmed, you will have to inform everyone yourself. Sending a ingame message to all leaders wouldn't be a bad start.

I sense blood!

So if you contacted him you did do as he asked... and he has yet to respond back to you, which does make the situation more unstable if your being ignored....

Hai, your MOTD reads "no turn farming". I doubt that anyone has a 2 bil income, though most of us are working to change that.
Most of the hits look to be within normal farming guidelines. Maybe it would help if the MOTD asked for no farming until such and such a date, though the new farming / raiding / covert buttons may cause people to not see your new level of defence nor your MOTD. This is not criticism, just trying to be helpful.

Jiro wrote:Too bad I cannot have more than 8 officers.
Maybe Vaako has some places left. He protects his officers. If force is the only thing people farming Hai Shulud respect ...

The difference between what happened with Vaako and the TIE member in question, and what may happen between Hai & the WR members in question is thus:

1.) Vaako never contacted the TIE member, or issued any warnings whatsoever. His MOTD may have said to not farm his officers... but if your farming his officers, your not going to be looking at Vaako's account and therefore see his MOTD... are you?

2.) Vaako then attacked the TIE member in question with no warning to that member, or any attempt at contacting the TIE leadership.

3.) Vaako attacked a small inexperienced NEW TIE members for farming his INACTIVE officers.

4.) Vaako's demands are consistant i.e. no set time-limit to how long he's asking for his officers to not be farmed.

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1.) Hai has posted on this forum asking to not be attacked.

2.) Hai has contacted the leadership of WR asking for them to tell their members not to attack him. He has been completely ignored thus far.

3.) Hai IS the small TIE member in this scenario, and if it comes to use of military force... it will be HIM hitting the larger/ more developed WR members (rather than the other way around).

4.) Hai's asking to be left alone for 1 week... not forever as Vaako is asking for his officers.

Based on that then, there is a considerable difference. Vaako's actions & demands are/were unreasonable. Hai asking to be left alone for a week while he gets his account in order after returning to AW, as well as his trying to contact the WR leadership is reasonable.

god i love your attitute Hai!! :3 yes our alliance has pretty good leadership, which is fundamentally different from the "must argue about every little thing and turn into drama" leadership WR has. If I was in the High Council, I would start a vote about leaving TOC. I don't see any reason for us to be with WR anymore. I Honestly don't! I will probably talk to Ish about this and maibe start a thread later.

ian wrote:

Jiro wrote:Too bad I cannot have more than 8 officers.
Maybe Vaako has some places left. He protects his officers. If force is the only thing people farming Hai Shulud respect ...

The difference between what happened with Vaako and the TIE member in question, and what may happen between Hai & the WR members in question is thus:

1.) Vaako never contacted the TIE member, or issued any warnings whatsoever. His MOTD may have said to not farm his officers... but if your farming his officers, your not going to be looking at Vaako's account and therefore see his MOTD... are you?

2.) Vaako then attacked the TIE member in question with no warning to that member, or any attempt at contacting the TIE leadership.

3.) Vaako attacked a small inexperienced NEW TIE members for farming his INACTIVE officers.

4.) Vaako's demands are consistant i.e. no set time-limit to how long he's asking for his officers to not be farmed.

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1.) Hai has posted on this forum asking to not be attacked.

2.) Hai has contacted the leadership of WR asking for them to tell their members not to attack him. He has been completely ignored thus far.

3.) Hai IS the small TIE member in this scenario, and if it comes to use of military force... it will be HIM hitting the larger/ more developed WR members (rather than the other way around).

4.) Hai's asking to be left alone for 1 week... not forever as Vaako is asking for his officers.

Based on that then, there is a considerable difference. Vaako's actions & demands are/were unreasonable. Hai asking to be left alone for a week while he gets his account in order after returning to AW, as well as his trying to contact the WR leadership is reasonable.

Can you not see how someone from Mujengan actively protecting Hai would be a good thing for Hai? If anything, history has shown that Vaako protecting officers is not bluff, so the protection to Hai Shulud would be real and tangible. If there was any humour in this to be found, it would be irony. It made me smile at least.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Why is everyone referring to me as the poor small TIE guy??????

While I appreciate talk of protection and support for me I'm not a noob.

Ive told Ian that i prefered to start a fight on my own and not drag TIE into anything. HOWEVER seeing as there is still something called loyalty and friendship Ian assured me that my fight is his fight and in turn TIE's fight.

The resulting politics you see on this page are just that - POLITICS.

Please people do not get sidetracked by the poor relations between the superpowers. The simple matter here is this:

I have made my stance and my alliance is now OFFICIALLY backing that stance. The ball is firmly in WR's court and the server is watching their decision.

@SovietMan - I am more and more impressed with Muj leadership and the alliance as a whole everyday. I can not see how you continue to be involved in an alliance with WR.

@Jiro - I personally disagree with no farming policies - So as far as im concerned had Veeko tried to implement that on me - i would have declared a 1 vs 1 on him without a moments hesitation. So i do not seek protection (plus with friends like Vesper and Ian i doubt i need anymore than what i got) - im simply asking the server for a break while i try to get back into the game and if someone is not willing to give me that than im going to steamroller their account.

Hai-Shulud wrote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Why is everyone referring to me as the poor small TIE guy??????

While I appreciate talk of protection and support for me I'm not a noob.

Ive told Ian that i prefered to start a fight on my own and not drag TIE into anything. HOWEVER seeing as there is still something called loyalty and friendship Ian assured me that my fight is his fight and in turn TIE's fight.

The resulting politics you see on this page are just that - POLITICS.

Please people do not get sidetracked by the poor relations between the superpowers. The simple matter here is this:

I have made my stance and my alliance is now OFFICIALLY backing that stance. The ball is firmly in WR's court and the server is watching their decision.

@SovietMan - I am more and more impressed with Muj leadership and the alliance as a whole everyday. I can not see how you continue to be involved in an alliance with WR.

@Jiro - I personally disagree with no farming policies - So as far as im concerned had Veeko tried to implement that on me - i would have declared a 1 vs 1 on him without a moments hesitation. So i do not seek protection (plus with friends like Vesper and Ian i doubt i need anymore than what i got) - im simply asking the server for a break while i try to get back into the game and if someone is not willing to give me that than im going to steamroller their account.

NO offense Hai but impressed with MUJ leadership? That has to be a joke right?

For the most part I have to agree with him, some of them are very good, and very understanding. They try very hard. Just that some seem to think what they say is final. While I laugh at them and point out this is the internet, so get over it.

@Hai I though you wanted a break from farming. That's why I suggested a solution. I thought the solution funny and creative, so I shared it with you.
I am sorry people can not tell the difference between that and the usual politics.
Actually, I was surprised to find that you had a > 1 bil defence (won't mention the actual number), but then I expected you to be farmed at each and every opportunity, given your emphasis on being OK with regular farming but not turn farming.
Whatever. I hope people stop once they realise you're active again. Glad you're back.

Nimras wrote:NO offense Hai but impressed with MUJ leadership? That has to be a joke right?

Well Ishurue came all the way to dune and was in my alliance for a while. Im a sentimental kind of guy - so when someone goes to war with me side by side and performs their duties they earn my trust and respect.

I've also been tracking the whole TIE - Muj - WR politics from the beginning. I was there when Ish first emerged as a leader and there when we first underestimated him and there when Muj was formed. And even though ive been away for a long time i still talk to Ian during that time and he would fill me in.

It seems to me that in many aspects Muj is very similar to TIE. I like their mentality, their play style and most of all the way they interact with others. These are all things i respect in TIE so it would be hypocritical not to appreciate them in others.

In another world in another server TIE and Muj would make a great alliance. However they have chosen to throw their peas in the same bowl as WR. So while i respect them i will not refrain from eating them.

@Sea - i would agree that many take these games too seriously, hence i make it my mission to annoy those kind of people as much as possible

@Jiro - your solution certainly entertained me. You have nothing to apologise for. My motd is very misleading i agree, also i may not have made myself clear enough initially. However the problem here is that Kenzu KNEW what i requested and yet he did not inform his members or take any kind of action - IF you look over those attack logs YES most are profitable but there are some that arent and EVEN THOSE haven't been addressed by him. Hence why im so angry and close to starting a bonfire somewhere uncomfortable for them.

UPDATE - KENZU's PM TO ME -

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hi, ian told me that you have some problems with certain members, i am sorry but I didnt see you on MSN recently to discuss the matter.

I am currently on vacation, since friday and I will be back on tuesday, in the meanwhile we can talk via pm.

so please tell me, who attacked you and what exactly is the problem.

As I understand you dont like getting farmed, and you are threatening others to mass them if they do.

You should know that people can decide not to farm you if they wish, but that doesn't mean that they must not farm you. It is their free will, and any kind of threats just make the matter worse.

you should also know that a hostile mission against any of our members is the same as a declaration of war against all of TOC which will be returned with complete annihilation against the attacker, if you are not a member of TIE then only against you, but if you are still Imperium member, then this will obviously mean that you dragged Imperium to war.

So I obviously hope you will not make a mistake.
Are there any other things you would like to discuss, or if I have misunderstood what you wanted to talk about, then please tell me.

on a side note, if you wish to have 1 vs 1 with any of our members, then it should be fine and will most likely be treated as a 1 vs 1, if our member isnt much smaller than you, if he agreed to it, and if you informed me of this in advance, and if I approved it. Always make sure our alliance approves of 1 on 1, so that you dont have the whole alliance against you, which you probably dont want anyway.

SENT - Keinutnai no subject [26 Sep] 23:27 Reply save

Ill let you all digest that first

To think at 1 point I wondered why everyone thought kenzu was an idiot, and couldn't grasp things.

Every day I see why more more.

Hai ahh but your wrong Muj is not trustworthy .

Some in Muj are. Others have shown they aren't level headed. But given a little time they do come around and see things as they really are.

I can think of a few that say TIE can't be trusted.

Now that I think abut it, I wonder what people say about TM.

seaborgium wrote:Some in Muj are. Others have shown they aren't level headed. But given a little time they do come around and see things as they really are.

I can think of a few that say TIE can't be trusted.

Now that I think abut it, I wonder what people say about TM.

Hehe well we stand by our word unlike Ish lol

I can't say Ish hasn't stood by his word. Now I do know a few actions that say other wise. However they don't affect me, as we didn't discuss the issue before lol.

seaborgium wrote:I can't say Ish hasn't stood by his word. Now I do know a few actions that say other wise. However they don't affect me, as we didn't discuss the issue before lol.

TRUE

Obviously no one likes getting farmed. That's why we have the option to send messages and ask if they will be so kind not to farm us.

You told me you don't want to be farmed, I read that and I decided not to farm you. As you know, I also suggested that you can tell more people, not to farm you.

If they dont farm you, they are very nice, but if they do, then you shouldn't be angry at them, because their behaviour is reasonable.

I believe it is the free choice of every player to farm, as long as its profitable. Of course no one should be making unprofitable hits.

However threatening to mass people if they farm you profitably is a bad thing to do. Massing them is even worse.

As you know the mere threat of massing someone can sometimes lead to getting massed yourself. If you played many browser games, you might have experienced that already.

I don't want TIE to farm TOC at all, but does it mean that I will threaten TIE with war if they farm me profitably? Of course not. Why should you be treated any different than other people?



Besides, bad experience with a TIE member who promised not to attack people who dont attack him ending that he took part in massing of many WR members who didnt touch him simply because some other players attacked him leave me to believe that something similar could repeat again.

@Hai-Shulud
Why should WR not farm you at all, if there are a couple TIE members who breached not only our but also their farming policy and failed to pay compensation after being asked to pay?
Why do you keep thinking that just because you don't want to be farmed I must inform WR members instead of you?

Im sick and tired of repeating this!

I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY NO-FARMING POLICY, I DO NOT AGREE WITH LIMITATIONS ON FARMING, HELL I DONT EVEN THINK THERE SHOULD BE A TREATY ON ACCEPTABLE FARMING!!!!!!!!!

I AM NOT ASKING TO NOT BE FARMED NEVER EVER!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL IVE EVER ASKED FOR IS 2 WEEKS OF NOT BEING FARMED SO I CAN RETURN TO THE GAME AND ONCE AGAIN BECOME AND ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE COMMUNITY!

2 things here :

1) Maybe your intentionally trying to stop me rebuilding in which case I will declare war on you
2) You just dont care in which case i will declare war on you

@KENZU - Do you expect me to send a message to EVERY SINGLE person person in WR not to farm me when you can do that with a single button click???? Get this in to your skull Kenzu - I've already stated this once - Back down or I promise you that your members will forget what growing in peace feels like.

My demands - ( yes they are demands and non-negotiable )

1) No WR member will farm me for the next 7 days
2) 200% compensation will be paid for ALL hits done on me by WR members
3) I reserve the right to total the account of and the officers of any person in WR who does farm me within the 7 day period

Once the 7 days are up, the farming policy agreed by all the alliances will apply.

You have 24 hours to respond Kenzu