Balancing the % bonus of points

Right now the distribution of points looks as follows (based on data from players in the last week):
Attack: 17.5%
Defense: 35.5%
Covert: 28.8%
Income: 18.2%
Covert and def prolly going up a bit more in the near future for obvious reasons

Now either we make starting values to be 1% for each stat
or we keep a bit of the current setup making the base values Attack 1%, Defense 1.25%, Covert 1.5%, Income 0.2%
or we keep the current values as base values
Or any other viable suggestion someone might have

Additionally I can understand, should this kind of thing ever get released but it's not going to happen anytime soon, that it will cause, at least short term, turmoil with the PB jumping up and down cos it'd only recalculate once per day and people would make choices.
Hence I'd allow that each day you can remove 1 point from your stats to add them to any other stat whenever you want, up to a stackable limit of 6 points (you wait 6 days and can reassign 6 points in one moment)

Well I dont think just making them all 1% is the answer, for reasons already discussed.

I am fine with the present set up, only question would be is covert to strong or just right

I love the PBP change suggestion btw.

Personally I see Income and to a lesser extent defence worthless. I can see how many people consider defence bonus to be great so I have no issue with that. I don't really see how anyone who farms could think that income bonus is a good choice but hey that's just me, other people have different opinions. I don't really know what to make of people who don't farm, but they would probably see the income bonus as the best option as there income would be their only income. (I don't know how many players are out there that don't farm but there must be a few...)

Anyway I don't see a big problem with the %'s as they are now, except income which I think should be either HUGE or 0% (<- i.e. not there).

I think covert is fine, but that is not based on anything really, just my feeling.

I love the idea of the PBP changing as well. At the moment it cost $ to be able to change it (After the first change) and you have to change it all at once (Or pay more $) so I think it is a great idea, and it would lend further involvement in PBP instead of just setting it once and thats it. You could change (Slowly) for wars, or peacetimes etc.

-Alex

Admin wrote:Right now the distribution of points looks as follows (based on data from players in the last week):
Attack: 17.5%
Defense: 35.5%
Covert: 28.8%
Income: 18.2%
Covert and def prolly going up a bit more in the near future for obvious reasons

Now either we make starting values to be 1% for each stat
or we keep a bit of the current setup making the base values Attack 1%, Defense 1.25%, Covert 1.5%, Income 0.2%
or we keep the current values as base values
Or any other viable suggestion someone might have

Additionally I can understand, should this kind of thing ever get released but it's not going to happen anytime soon, that it will cause, at least short term, turmoil with the PB jumping up and down cos it'd only recalculate once per day and people would make choices.
Hence I'd allow that each day you can remove 1 point from your stats to add them to any other stat whenever you want, up to a stackable limit of 6 points (you wait 6 days and can reassign 6 points in one moment)

I will assume that the above stats is an average taken...
With that being said I like the setup as is with the exception of Income, (thats just me). Also if I am understanding correctly what you are saying about the PBP, I like the idea very much & think it would make for some very interesting gameplay...

I think the current setup is good enough, only exception is income.

Maybe defense could be taken down a bit to 1.30 or 1.25 ... I have seen alot of stupid attacks after the last updates in which the attacker lost more then the target.

But income needs some work, I think 18.2% is there just because people don't know about AE affecting the income bonus and they think back at other similar games where the income bonus was much more powerful.

I think something around 0.2% should work ... maybe start a bit lower, let's say 0.175 or 0.18 and see what the trend is.

Also I think the limits on all races for points in income should be increased. All races beside Hualu should get around 70% and Hualu to get around 80% or another idea would be that all races get 100% in income considering that income isn't at all race specific.

rflash wrote:But income needs some work, I think 18.2% is there just because people don't know about AE affecting the income bonus and they think back at other similar games where the income bonus was much more powerful.

Explain to me how an income bonus that simulates you having 20% more income units is weaker when your AE is 50% than when it's 100%?

Cos I really dont get that statement nor the logic behind it which has no mathematical foundation

i cant explain it to you as i suck at math

and the ideaology behind it may be completely wrong

but to someone like me, saying

You get 20% added to your income at 100% AE and at 50% AE still equates the bonus is 1/2 as strong.

it would be different if the bonus income was not nerfed by AE first

lets say my income is 30% of my total because of my AE

the income bonus is 20% ofthe 30% im making, not 20% of my FULL income, therefore AE does decrease the effectiveness of the bonus.


that prolly makes no sense to you at all, but thats how it looks/feels to me when I see it and thats why I dont use the income bonus.

bonus added before AE
100*1.2(20%) = 120
120*.3 = 36

bonus added after AE
100*.3 = 30
30*1.2(20%) = 36

Not sure what you getting at nomad

perception

i think thats the right word

like I said, it may be totally false, but its how it looks

and while that may be right, it looks wrong LOL

do it this way

do a 100 mill per turn income, do the 20% income bonus, give the total amounts at 100% AE and at 30% AE

Subtract the ACTUAL bonus given to the one with 30% AE from the one with 100% and see what it says.

thats a mute point...
AE will ALWAYS affect the amount of bonus be it before or after

so the lower the AE the lower the bonus correct?

if so thats exactly what i was saying

I think Nomad is suggesting giving the bonus after AE is factored in.

Current setup with a 5%

Spoiler:

What I think nomad is suggesting with a 5% bonus

Spoiler:

He means add the bonus AFTER AE is taken out just like the CO benefit. I am guessing, i could be totally wrong but that is how i view it.

seaborgium wrote:bonus added before AE
100*1.2(20%) = 120
120*.3 = 36

bonus added after AE
100*.3 = 30
30*1.2(20%) = 36

Not sure what you getting at nomad

Everyone take note if the simple fact that someone without income bonus in both cases would produce 30% income, let's say it's 30 mil for arguments sake.
20% from that is 6 mil and as you can see from sea's post, both people end up with 36 mil per turn no matter when AE is added before or after.

If you multiply two numbers together it doesn't matter which multiplication you do first. You always end up with the same result. That's why an income bonus of 20% will always simulate you having 20% more income units at no further decrease in AE (cos your AE would drop even further if you tried actually getting those 20% income units)

Nomad wrote:so the lower the AE the lower the bonus correct?

if so thats exactly what i was saying

As proven above, that feeling is totally false.
You can try doing the math by comparing any two people, getting their amount of farmers and their AE. And then calculate how many units they would need to get to reach the same income they could have if they simply had 20% in income bonus

Well I'm not going to continue to debate this for various reasons.

@ Vesper,,, yes thats what I meant, but I wasnt suggesting it. Just saying the fact the lower the AE then the lower the overall bonus was why I and why I feel many others do not use the income bonus.

@ Admin, What you saying is true. The effect of having 20% more miners at no change of AE is what you intended and achieved.

My point is not FALSE tho, just my point is veiwed as irrelevant to you about this case. I am fine with that. I see what you have done, that is to get the effect of having 20% more miners without it effecting the AE.

100 mill income

100,000 * 0 (no bonus) * 1 (100% AE) = 100,000 = 0 bonus
100,000 * 1.2 (20%) * 1 (100% AE) = 120,000 = 20,000 bonus
100,000 * 0 (no bonus) * .5 (50% AE) = 50,000 = 0 bonus
100,000 * 1.2 (20%) * .5 (50% AE) = 60,000 = 10,000 bonus

so infact the AE cut the bonus in half. YES I understand that is the intended effect and I do not have a problem with it, I am just stating AE Does effect the amount the bonus is, and I state that this is Why I do not use it.

I'll go a bit further and say IF you wanted to make it more tempting then you could Possibly make it so the 20,000 increase was figured in Post AE and then the total was 70,000 instead of 60,000. Effectively making AE have no effect on the bonus, Then maybe more people would use it.

Now weather or not that would imbalance the bonus, I do not know. All this is just my best explination as to Why I veiw income bonuses as useless when AE hits and why I do not use them. I am not lobbying for a change, just trying to explain my "perception" as to why myself, and most players bypass the income bonus for more useful bonuses.

PBP's only target is to require you having less units in a certain stat. Hence the "20% income before or after AE just makes you require 20% less units in income".
Although now that I think about it the other stats also allow you to lose less units in battle/operations while causing the same damage to others.

Hmm time to reconsider base values for the stats again, cos really all 4 are kinda unique in their own way:
- Attack: Less repairs when farming and higher kill ratio when massing
- Defense: Mostly passive bonus only but also higher kill ratio when getting massed
- Covert: Kinda like strike and defense together. Used in both defense and offense
- Income: Totally passive bonus but no help in war

way to go Nomad, you got Admin thinking about the PBP again

Ok, Let me start by saying this. I suck at math worse than any other person playing this game, all your * & ( ) & % are driving me insane... With that being said, I do not use the income bonus because the actual kuwal earned per point, (in my opinion) is not enough to warrent wasting the point in income when it would be more useful in defense, or covert, or even attack, IDK. what I do know is that when I max-out my other stats & am forced to put the remainder into income, then I'll know if I did the right thing or not. If I did,"yeah me", If I didn't, nobody to blame but myself...

It has been maybe half a year since I have said its not balanced.
Attack is too weak and covert too strong.
Many people choose defense, simply because they are defensive players, it is not necessarily to strong.

Attack: 17.5%
Defense: 35.5%
Covert: 28.8%
Income: 18.2%

Attack should be increased to the same value as defense
1% => 1.35%

Defense should stay the same

Covert should be decreased, but only if it will be the most used.
I recommend a decrease from 2% to 1.75%

Income should be slightly increased maybe from 0.125% to 0.15%.

I totally disagree with you saying ATT and DEF should be equal.

1. Att is always online, making them equal makes defensive bonuses USELESS

2. Att can buy weapons and train men because they are online so if the att and def were equal then after 1 turn change att becomes stronger, therefore making att and defense bonuses equal makes defense bonuses USELESS

3. attacking forces ALWAYS have to advance in open ground and expose themselves so in theory and practicality defensive measures should have the advantage.

4. If 2 accounts are identical in every way other then 1 is all attack oreninted in stats, PBP, discounts and techs, and the other is defense oriented, then making them equal make defensesive races WORTHLESS. as you can never best your opponent.

So im guessing if these bonus points update come out we will get another race change ?

well seeing Nomad's point of view it makes sense.

how does this look .

Attack 1 point = 1.25% increase

defense stays the same

Covert stays the same .

income goes to .75% so Huala with 33 points can get a max of 20 points in income giving them a 15% increase .
The only bonus that seems unbalanced is income , and maybe attack .

im not bedating if, when, or how much to change them, I'm just saying I myself totally disagree with strike and defensive bonuses being equal.

Well on the reset server which might come in the near future I was thinking of doing following base values
Attack: 1.25%
Defense: 1.5%
Covert: 2%
Income: 0.75-1% (this is reset server so income needs to be by definition higher than on normal server, main would have probably around half this value)

That and the chance to reassign 1 stat point per day (up to a piling up of 5-6 points), along with the stat boosts actually readjusting depending on how many people would have that particular stat.
So if 50% of players took covert, it'd be twice the amount of the normal 25% so the bonus would be only 1%. Accordingly if we'd end up with only 12.5% of players having income, then the income boost would be doubled.

Now this is the system i'm thinking of trying out on the reset server.

I hope the slow point reassignment comes to main myself, as for reset server, well we will see when it arrives but I definitely agree incomes need to be much higher.

Nomad wrote:I totally disagree with you saying ATT and DEF should be equal.

1. Att is always online, making them equal makes defensive bonuses USELESS

Attackers get massed more often than defenders. I personally prefer defense over offense, even if attack and defense are equal in bonuses

2. Att can buy weapons and train men because they are online so if the att and def were equal then after 1 turn change att becomes stronger, therefore making att and defense bonuses equal makes defense bonuses USELESS

3. attacking forces ALWAYS have to advance in open ground and expose themselves so in theory and practicality defensive measures should have the advantage.

Not if you soften up defenders by shelling them with some artillery from unknown positions.

4. If 2 accounts are identical in every way other then 1 is all attack oreninted in stats, PBP, discounts and techs, and the other is defense oriented, then making them equal make defensesive races WORTHLESS. as you can never best your opponent.

Admin wrote:Well on the reset server which might come in the near future I was thinking of doing following base values
Attack: 1.25%
Defense: 1.5%
Covert: 2%
Income: 0.75-1% (this is reset server so income needs to be by definition higher than on normal server, main would have probably around half this value)

That and the chance to reassign 1 stat point per day (up to a piling up of 5-6 points), along with the stat boosts actually readjusting depending on how many people would have that particular stat.
So if 50% of players took covert, it'd be twice the amount of the normal 25% so the bonus would be only 1%. Accordingly if we'd end up with only 12.5% of players having income, then the income boost would be doubled.

Now this is the system i'm thinking of trying out on the reset server.

Looks good but Income is too high. We should not forget that income units ammount to roughly 80% of population, while attack, defense and covert each ammount to roughly 7.5%

With an income of 0.75% I would take all bonuses on income.

its a reset server idea, all reset servers need fast paced income.