can anyone help me?

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can anyone help me?

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:10 pm

I will not lie, I do not understand where Kenzu is getting his numbers from, I always thought the basis for trading/selling was the rates on the GM... example,,, the best rates on the GM ATM are...

UU for kuwal - 1:182,000

Turns for kuwal - 1:39,000,000

UU for turns - 1:250

now unless I am wrong the above facts mean the following...

1) I still have to hit for 400,000,000 to "break even" farming...
2) I still have to hit for a minimum of 2,500 per hit to "break even" when raiding...

one cannot build an account by "breaking even" a "profit" has to be made, & the "better" ones account is built, the larger the profit margin has to be to continue to see improvements...

Now I have been top to bottom, round all corners, over & under this game trying to find where Kenzu is getting his numbers from in the several posts he has made in the last couple days... I would really like to understand what he is talking about, but I can't. Do you have any Idea where he is getting these numbers from?

Personally I do not see this update causing any harm to the game, but at the same time, I will admit, I have little experience in these types of games, Also would like to point out that since the update I have been able to make improvements to my account that would not have been possible for me to make at this time without the update... I welcome any & all responses...
I do want to be clear here, I am not trying to stir up anything, just trying to understand the different thoughts that different players have about how they play this game,

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Nomad on Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:17 pm

I would also like to know, then maybe his post make more sense.

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by seaborgium on Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:01 pm

he is getting the numbers from the TC
Where you can trade
3,492,244,800 kuwal for 145 ATs
or
18,450 for 145 ATs

I have never seen these numbers move in any direction other then down since admin did that a while ago

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:25 pm

seaborgium wrote:he is getting the numbers from the TC
Where you can trade
3,492,244,800 kuwal for 145 ATs
or
18,450 for 145 ATs

I have never seen these numbers move in any direction other then down since admin did that a while ago

Thanks for that information, but that raises another question...

Is there any players with SS that actually use the trade center? I know that I don't, I save my market trades & market reserves to use for protection, I understand non-SS players using it as it is there only option. Also unless it is a war-type situation, I really do not see myself trading off my market reserves for AT or ST either, Altho I would like to hear from players that would trade market reserves for AT or ST, so I could learn the benefits of such actions... Thanks again for the input...

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Nomad on Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:38 pm

Well I have a nice amount of MR stashed away, and to me the idea of using MR for AT is appealing due to my want to raid more. Farming prolly wont change for me, but raiding has and will increase.

I have not sold to TC since maybe the 2 or 3rd month the game has run, and only then as it was for advancements I could not pay for any other way. I have had SS so long I don't understand the needs of NON SS players, but still feel they are greatly disadvantaged do to no access to GM.

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Kenzu on Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:47 pm

I always used the trade center, even though I got SS, because I could get AT cheaper than the kuwal I farmed and uu that I raided.

Now obviously I don't use TC at all, except for getting free turns.

I consider the free turns to be extremely biased towards people who have SS, as they can get free turns in addition to being able to trade as much as they want, while people without SS can't trade as much as they want, and the more they trade, the less free turns they will get.

kingkongfan1 wrote:I will not lie, I do not understand where Kenzu is getting his numbers from, I always thought the basis for trading/selling was the rates on the GM... example,,, the best rates on the GM ATM are...

UU for kuwal - 1:182,000

Turns for kuwal - 1:39,000,000

UU for turns - 1:250

now unless I am wrong the above facts mean the following...

1) I still have to hit for 400,000,000 to "break even" farming...
2) I still have to hit for a minimum of 2,500 per hit to "break even" when raiding...

one cannot build an account by "breaking even" a "profit" has to be made, & the "better" ones account is built, the larger the profit margin has to be to continue to see improvements...[/color]

You can break even at 400 million because all you do is buy AT at the price they are offered instead of making a bid yourself. There are two sides:

Buy 3,340,000,167 Kuwal for your 167 Turns
[RATE: 1:20,000,001]

Buy 2,175 Turns for your 84,824,997,825 Kuwal
[RATE: 1:38,999,999]

You buy AT at 39 million per AT. I buy them at 20 million per turn.

I took the time to place a bid and wait calmly until someone sells his turns to me. This way someone sells me his turns for 20 million per turn, and I pass them on to anyone who is willing to pay 40 million (and I find buyers frequently). The rest of the turns I use to farm myself.

You have a problem to obtain turns, because you don't make any bids. Why don't you offer to buy turns at 25 or 30 million? With 30 million you will find loads of sellers, afterall its over TC price, additionally, you can make 33% profit if you farm 400 million or raid 2280 uu.

Make bids yourself, be patient and you will never have AT worries again.
Also, it's easier to make higher profits by raiding, because much less people are raiding than farming. Raiding doesn't seem to be as appealing as farming to most players.


PS: When I was calculating prices in my free turn thread, I was taking TC prices, because these are the prices that are relevant if you want to decide to use TC to trade or to get free turns

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Nomad on Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:51 pm

your above point only applies to those with SS.

right?


So how do you know that it was equal between people buying and people selling AT on the TC? Thats what I want to know.

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Kenzu on Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:05 pm

Nomad wrote:your above point only applies to those with SS.

right?


So how do you know that it was equal between people buying and people selling AT on the TC? Thats what I want to know.

what was equal?
you mean number of AT bought and sold in the TC?

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:05 pm

Kenzu wrote:I always used the trade center, even though I got SS, because I could get AT cheaper than the kuwal I farmed and uu that I raided.
I ran the numbers, & while I will admit to not being a math wizard, what I came up with was the trade center prices are marginally cheaper that that of the GM.

Now obviously I don't use TC at all, except for getting free turns.

I consider the free turns to be extremely biased towards people who have SS, as they can get free turns in addition to being able to trade as much as they want, while people without SS can't trade as much as they want, and the more they trade, the less free turns they will get.
I could be wrong here, Are you refering to the extra AT per round we all were given? I thought that all players were getting 2 AT per turn now, I do not understand "free" because as far as I can tell, all other AT's have to be bought or traded for. Are you are refering to the 100 AT/50 ST one can recieve for market reserves? I do not consider them "free" because to get them you have to trade a market reserve to get them, does anyone else see it differently? & lastly I have, for a while now, wondered why the non-SS players were restricted to only 16 market trades a week, when the SS players could trade as much as they wanted, (as long as they had the resources... lol). it's a simple solution IMO, kill the limit on non-SS trades, keep the 16 market trades for protection. I mean if the player has the resources, why restrict that player to only 16 trades a week? ( getting a little off track here, sorry).

kingkongfan1 wrote:I will not lie, I do not understand where Kenzu is getting his numbers from, I always thought the basis for trading/selling was the rates on the GM... example,,, the best rates on the GM ATM are...

UU for kuwal - 1:182,000

Turns for kuwal - 1:39,000,000

UU for turns - 1:250

now unless I am wrong the above facts mean the following...

1) I still have to hit for 400,000,000 to "break even" farming...
2) I still have to hit for a minimum of 2,500 per hit to "break even" when raiding...

one cannot build an account by "breaking even" a "profit" has to be made, & the "better" ones account is built, the larger the profit margin has to be to continue to see improvements...[/color]

You can break even at 400 million because all you do is buy AT at the price they are offered instead of making a bid yourself. There are two sides:

Buy 3,340,000,167 Kuwal for your 167 Turns
[RATE: 1:20,000,001]
the above appears to me like you are "GIVING" 167 AT's to "GET" 3,340,000,167 kuwal, I could be wrong tho, so I still would like to know where on the GM or the Trade center are you finding AT's for 20,000,000 per? cause I've been to both places & it's not there. I do know of a few players who were selling off the market to other players...

Buy 2,175 Turns for your 84,824,997,825 Kuwal
[RATE: 1:38,999,999]
1 kuwal from what I posted earlier, no difference in my book

You buy AT at 39 million per AT. I buy them at 20 million per turn.
I will ask again, Where? there are no such offers on either the GM or the trade center...

I took the time to place a bid and wait calmly until someone sells his turns to me. This way someone sells me his turns for 20 million per turn, and I pass them on to anyone who is willing to pay 40 million (and I find buyers frequently). The rest of the turns I use to farm myself.

You have a problem to obtain turns, because you don't make any bids. Why don't you offer to buy turns at 25 or 30 million? With 30 million you will find loads of sellers, afterall its over TC price, additionally, you can make 33% profit if you farm 400 million or raid 2280 uu.
in reference to the above in bold & underlined, how do you know what I do or do not do? seriously? this is not the first post that you have made presuming to tell a player what that player has or has not done, I just want to know, do you really know something, because if you do not then I would appreciate it if you refrained from statements of this nature, as they could be construed that you have access to information, that no player should have access to, only the Admin... anyone else, agree? disagree?

Make bids yourself, be patient and you will never have AT worries again.
Also, it's easier to make higher profits by raiding, because much less people are raiding than farming. Raiding doesn't seem to be as appealing as farming to most players.


PS: When I was calculating prices in my free turn thread, I was taking TC prices, because these are the prices that are relevant if you want to decide to use TC to trade or to get free turns.
will ask again, where are the free turns? oh wait, are you talking about what is given when voting? 1) gotta vote to get them, not getting something for nothing, so in my opinion, not "free". 2) the voting page seems to be down ATM so I don't think we can count those anyway, lol...

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Nomad on Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:10 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:your above point only applies to those with SS.

right?


So how do you know that it was equal between people buying and people selling AT on the TC? Thats what I want to know.

what was equal?
you mean number of AT bought and sold in the TC?

Yes, thats what I was asking

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by seaborgium on Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:17 pm

kong there are 2 sides to teh GM
1, where you sell ATs and 1 where you buy them
Yes you have to give x amount of Kuwal for x amount of ATs
but that means you are buying ATs at that price
2. You are buying ATs from someone who put up a sell offer. Kenzu is putting up an offer to buy ATs, and people are selling them instead of making there own offer.
3. Kenzu see anything where you don't have to do any work as free, as teh MT/MRs are given to you in the game, you are in a sense getting the AT/ST free.
4. Our idea of free isn't the same as Kenzu, his idea of free means we didn't give any ingame resources. While we think of free as we did nothing.

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:54 pm

seaborgium wrote:kong there are 2 sides to teh GM
1, where you sell ATs and 1 where you buy them.
that is what I thought, thank you for clearing that up for me.
Yes you have to give x amount of Kuwal for x amount of ATs
but that means you are buying ATs at that price
2. You are buying ATs from someone who put up a sell offer. Kenzu is putting up an offer to buy ATs, and people are selling them instead of making there own offer.
still a bit confused here as it clearly states YOU RECIEVE - 3,340,000,167 Kuwal, YOU PAY - 167 Turns [1:20,000,001]... look on the left side of the screen. is this a misprint? cause it looks like SELLING turns to me, not buying, so I am still looking for the AT's being sold on the market for 20,000,000 per.
3. Kenzu see anything where you don't have to do any work as free, as teh MT/MRs are given to you in the game, you are in a sense getting the AT/ST free.
interesting thought process, I cannot say that I agree as a lot of resources are given freely in the game, & I for one consider market trades/market reserves to be a resource on equal ground with AT/ST/CT & U/P, they are a necessary part of the game, as without them there wouldn't be a game. would definately like to hear others opinion of this kind of thinking.
4. Our idea of free isn't the same as Kenzu, his idea of free means we didn't give any ingame resources. While we think of free as we did nothing.
again very interesting, & for the record my defination of free is, something that doesn't cost money = kuwal, resources = turns, MR/MT, or UU, or services. (a great example of a service provided, in my opinion, would be voting for the game. players who vote, get paid for their services.

Thank you for you enlightening input, I appreciate it...


Last edited by kingkongfan1 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : cause I wanted 2, lol...)

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by seaborgium on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:47 am

well it is selling ATs... There are 2 ways for someone to sell Ats.
You can either place them on teh market to sell them at your price which is the right side of the screen or You can sell the ATs to others who put up a bid for what they are willing to pay which is the left side of teh screen.

Basicly
Left = Someone else price
Right = your price

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:52 am

seaborgium wrote:3. Kenzu see anything where you don't have to do any work as free, as teh MT/MRs are given to you in the game, you are in a sense getting the AT/ST free.
interesting thought process, I cannot say that I agree as a lot of resources are given freely in the game, & I for one consider market trades/market reserves to be a resource on equal ground with AT/ST/CT & U/P, they are a necessary part of the game, as without them there wouldn't be a game. would definately like to hear others opinion of this kind of thinking.
4. Our idea of free isn't the same as Kenzu, his idea of free means we didn't give any ingame resources. While we think of free as we did nothing.
again very interesting, & for the record my defination of free is, something that doesn't cost money = kuwal, resources = turns, MR/MT, or UU, or services. (a great example of a service provided, in my opinion, would be voting for the game. players who vote, get paid for their services.
For me free is only defined as having NO OPPORTUNITY COST (click the link)

Resources for voting are free. If you dont vote, you dont get them and you cannot gain anything by not voting (let's ignore the benefit of the game if people vote, simply the personal gain of a player)
MR AT's are not free, for the MT's lost you could have bought more turns and then use/sell them (you would certainly have made some profit buying turns from the TC and finding some targets to farm)

If one would totally ignore the time factor then to a certain extent even saying that buying turns for 100 mil then stealing 200 mil resulted in you receiving 100 mil kuwal for free.
Now, no one would accept that because as we all get taught from an early age, time is money. Hence the 100 mil kuwal was not actually free, we simply converted one commodity (or in this case two, attack turns and our free time) into another (kuwal profitssss)

That's why I define free as something that fits specific criteria:
- Requires little or none initial resources
- The amount of time invested compared to the benefits received is disproportionally more efficient than other methods of "growing"
- The maximum amount of time that can be invested into this method as well as the total benefits one can receive in a set period of time is predetermined as well as almost uniform amongst all players

tldr
=> voting is free because the benefits are a set value and you will not take more than a few minutes per day to click on all links.
=> farming is not free because you can (to the limit of your ST cap) keep farming more and more increasing your profits almost proportionately with the time invested and because you need attack turns and/or a decent strike to farm
=> MR AT's lie in between of the previous 2 categories (predetermined amount of benefit for a player which is not possible to be increased by spending more time however there are side effects involved, i.e. less bank size, or less protections, etc.)

Also with respect of the GM having crappy offers. Statistically you will never notice good offers because should they appear, someone will buy them quickly.
Hence if you want to buy/sell something, your better chance would be to put up an offer yourself

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Nomad on Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:15 am

As for GM, the more people allowed to trade, the more chance trades will stay longer and be more stable. JMO.

As for voting, you should go vote with dial up, then come back and respond. You obviously don't realise the true time consumption to people other then yourself.

And I love the oppurtunity cost explination.

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:57 am

Nomad wrote:As for GM, the more people allowed to trade, the more chance trades will stay longer and be more stable. JMO.
As for voting, you should go vote with dial up, then come back and respond. You obviously don't realise the true time consumption to people other then yourself.
dial up in the strictest sense of the word is the old style 56kbits modem type.
So yes, trying to vote using a phone with gprs which is about that same speed would be suicidal

But I dont think ISP's offer anything below 500kbits in even the most standard packages

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Manleva on Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:38 am

Admin wrote:dial up in the strictest sense of the word is the old style 56kbits modem type.
So yes, trying to vote using a phone with gprs which is about that same speed would be suicidal

But I dont think ISP's offer anything below 500kbits in even the most standard packages

Interesting comments - I know that for many internet users in my country Dial Up internet is the only realistic options available. While Broadband access is widely available there are still many rural areas that it is not available in. In addition internet access costs are high in comparison to a lot of other countries.

While I cannot speak for other countries I would expect that there are still many that have rural areas where dial up is still the main form of internet access

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:16 pm

Manleva wrote:
Admin wrote:dial up in the strictest sense of the word is the old style 56kbits modem type.
So yes, trying to vote using a phone with gprs which is about that same speed would be suicidal

But I dont think ISP's offer anything below 500kbits in even the most standard packages

Interesting comments - I know that for many internet users in my country Dial Up internet is the only realistic options available. While Broadband access is widely available there are still many rural areas that it is not available in. In addition internet access costs are high in comparison to a lot of other countries.

While I cannot speak for other countries I would expect that there are still many that have rural areas where dial up is still the main form of internet access
ok, i retract my statement

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Nomad on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:18 pm

I would assume you would have that information TBH? can't you see how many or what % use dial up? verses DSL?

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by kingkongfan1 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:31 pm

Spoiler:
Admin wrote:
seaborgium wrote:3. Kenzu see anything where you don't have to do any work as free, as teh MT/MRs are given to you in the game, you are in a sense getting the AT/ST free.
interesting thought process, I cannot say that I agree as a lot of resources are given freely in the game, & I for one consider market trades/market reserves to be a resource on equal ground with AT/ST/CT & U/P, they are a necessary part of the game, as without them there wouldn't be a game. would definately like to hear others opinion of this kind of thinking.
4. Our idea of free isn't the same as Kenzu, his idea of free means we didn't give any ingame resources. While we think of free as we did nothing.
again very interesting, & for the record my defination of free is, something that doesn't cost money = kuwal, resources = turns, MR/MT, or UU, or services. (a great example of a service provided, in my opinion, would be voting for the game. players who vote, get paid for their services.
For me free is only defined as having NO OPPORTUNITY COST (click the link)

Resources for voting are free. If you dont vote, you dont get them and you cannot gain anything by not voting
looking at the above statement, I would like to make this comment, without even logging into the game I get turns, market trades, & argueably UU for no opportunity cost, (free). the act of voting is a service provided for compensation, (kinda like work, you don't have to do it, but you do if you want to eat, lol), if you vote you get paid; if you don't vote, you don't get paid... JMO... (let's ignore the benefit of the game if people vote, simply the personal gain of a player)
MR AT's are not free, for the MT's lost you could have bought more turns and then use/sell them (you would certainly have made some profit buying turns from the TC and finding some targets to farm)

If one would totally ignore the time factor then to a certain extent even saying that buying turns for 100 mil then stealing 200 mil resulted in you receiving 100 mil kuwal for free.
Now, no one would accept that because as we all get taught from an early age, time is money. Hence the 100 mil kuwal was not actually free, we simply converted one commodity (or in this case two, attack turns and our free time) into another (kuwal profitssss)

That's why I define free as something that fits specific criteria:
- Requires little or none initial resources
- The amount of time invested compared to the benefits received is disproportionally more efficient than other methods of "growing"
- The maximum amount of time that can be invested into this method as well as the total benefits one can receive in a set period of time is predetermined as well as almost uniform amongst all players

tldr
=> voting is free because the benefits are a set value and you will not take more than a few minutes per day to click on all links.
=> farming is not free because you can (to the limit of your ST cap) keep farming more and more increasing your profits almost proportionately with the time invested and because you need attack turns and/or a decent strike to farm
=> MR AT's lie in between of the previous 2 categories (predetermined amount of benefit for a player which is not possible to be increased by spending more time however there are side effects involved, i.e. less bank size, or less protections, etc.)

Also with respect of the GM having crappy offers. Statistically you will never notice good offers because should they appear, someone will buy them quickly.
Hence if you want to buy/sell something, your better chance would be to put up an offer yourself.
as much as I would like to argue with you on this point, I can't cause for the most part you are right...
a very informative & insightful post, that I appreciate, I found myself, if not agreeing 100% with it, understanding better the thoughts of different players & how they see the best way to play the game to suit their individual needs, I think this thread has for the most part served its purpose, Also as it seems to have gone off on a different discussion path, (i really do not mind,lol) I will let this rest for now, maybe to be revisited in the future, thanks to all who gave input...

P.S.- had decided to try voting again, but nothing works on the voting page...


Last edited by kingkongfan1 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : p.s.)

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Re: can anyone help me?

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:03 pm

please pm or post in bug section explaining the "nothing"

buttons dont click, you dont get reward, links dont open in new window, the redirected page doesn't work, etc.

also on the time invested voting: I agree, as i said time is money, but then again, if you produce 400 mil a turn, it's something else if you can get a few bil worth of resources by voting, than to a person who has an income of 4 mil a turn.

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