(TOC) vs (TIE)

Jiro, at the time each SHC memeber that wasn't trusted, was given a board with different information on it. I would be willing to bet which over SHC that was for was cabal....

I know the SHC board I saw didn't have anything like that. Given what you just said. That shows that we were right in who was the Cabal person.

There is no such thing as ever lasting peace. You are only dreaming of something like that as it will never exist.

TIE and TOC were on equal footing about a week ago when TIE offered peace. TOC felt they had the upper edge so they declined. I was in that convo for the whole thing and was also having side convos with other TOC players, everyone in TOC I spoke to was under the impression TIE would die out of ST so we had no chance to hold up a war and the TOC leaders felt they would over run them. Ian then proved that ST is not an issue for TIE and continues to ask for peace on the forums. I am not sure what else you want him to do regarding peace. He created very very basic terms. He pulled the TOC leaders into a single msn chat and tried to discuss peace. Because "personal feelings" got in the way of the leadership TOC declined ian's proposal.

Not that I cared at this point since I was already out of the war and posted publicly by this time. Ian then instead of letting off the pedal when it comes to massing TOC during times of peace talk is also very very easy to understand. The last time Ian let off the pedal during talks of peace WR launched an attack against him.

If you want peace you can join Genesis We have a no hitting or farming of TIE or TOC for the time in the war :O

seaborgium wrote:Jiro, at the time each SHC memeber that wasn't trusted, was given a board with different information on it. I would be willing to bet which over SHC that was for was cabal....

I know the SHC board I saw didn't have anything like that. Given what you just said. That shows that we were right in who was the Cabal person.

That is because ian and I created like 8 HC sections putting different info into each section... We even created those side HC forums that after you were approved you were told about and given access to. I believe you were the 4th or 5th person to be told of the new HC forums. Whole cabal issue is dead though. Why do people keep bringing it up Makes me sad

Jiro wrote:
3) Dune, at that time 2IC of FIRE alliance Fedaykin, was a spy for TIE.

o.O At least put a question mark on that, jeez. Also, our forums [no, not TIE] were hacked twice. Once I don't know by whom, I'd presume "cabal". The second time they were "hacked" by Ishurue. I was online and caught him doing it from a different account while using the same IP he always used on his main admin account. He denied it, I had incontrovertible proof to the contrary which I presented to the leader of Fedaykin. He was outraged and [we] decided to split from FIRE. And THAT's when I ended cabal's self-fulfilling prophecy. Bam! Yeah.

wow accusations of hacking, spying, being aggressive and other bad stuff from all sides vs all other sides

Don't you love this game....

Beldar, there were hackings and spying, it was a person who is no longer playing, well at least that we know if.

She's out there ... the great white ninja ... prowling ... waiting to POUNCE! That was the single biggest blow to FIRE - TIE relations ever. Kenzu should count his blessings. If it hadn't been for that cabal thing, WR would have been long gone by now.

I'm a former FIRE [S]HC member, I know what I'm saying. Come to think of it, it's funny how coincidences work out sometimes. A crisis popped up just as WR was about to pop. Eh, such is the way of things.

Sandwalker, the SHC post that I got forwarded said that you were a spy. That's why it is in the bullet points.
There was no accusation on my account in my post. Just so you know.

The spy business is over-rated. I have nothing to hide. If you want to know what I am doing feel free to ask. I cant say the same about any of these other alliances....

I recently bought SS and UU for my account and will be working to increase my UP. I am currently selling UU at 160k per UU so feel free to broker me if you are interested. I know with this war going on the server may be a bit tight on funds but no reason a war should stunt everyone's growth.

Jiro wrote:Hi Ian,
I think your post sums it up really well:
1) You deny denying that you started, but then elaborate on how our aggression started before yours.
2) One definition of aggression is invading territory you did not have before. This can be either literal or figurative. So agression can be invading Poland with tanks and it can be trying to maneuver yourself into a position of power against him/her where he/she had that power him/herself. Like designating yourself the person who can decide who does the dishes, where that power used to be shared. (This definition comes from No trespassing!:
Explorations in human territoriality, Bakker & Bakker-Rabdau, 1973).

The deliberate misleading of The Imperium the last time FIRE/ TIE came to a crisis - in which basically a mere 12hours after it being promised to TIE FIRE would continue to cooperate in finding Cabal... we came under a suprise attack by FIRE. This played a very real and direct role in making us unwilling to believe there was any intention to abide by the Pre-N.A.P - resulting in us attacking when we heard about T.O.C preparing to assemble strike teams.

Apparently you are fond of this example, so let me explain what happened: between the NAP and the hostilities you posted a post on your SHC forum containing the following things:
1) The suckers from WR and FIRE fell for your story when they agreed to seach for cabal with you. You included convo's with WR and with me in them as evidence.
2) Your forum was never hacked, that story was an intentional ruse.
3) Dune, at that time 2IC of FIRE alliance Fedaykin, was a spy for TIE.
4) TIE was responsible for the hacking of our forum.
The contents of that post were sent by cabal to us, at a time when Ishurue and a lot of the best strikes were online on MSN. So we struck immediately in outrage, having been purposefully deceived by you personally.
There was no deliberate misleading by us there.
When I came online and saw what was happening, I contacted you and we worked out a peace that included we'd both forget and forgive what happened. We let it rest, why don't you?
As for the rest of your post, I think I made my point clear: I personally am ready to fight, regardless the cost, as long as TIE is unwilling to discuss lasting peace on an equal footing. As soon as you are, let me know.

My apologies Jiro. I believe you misintepreted what i said.

I am NOT saying or commenting on who started the aggression first. I have no wish to comment on that either. I am merely pointing out aggression was on BOTH sides - not just 1 or the other. Point to me where i state your aggression started first please. I believe i clearly stated one of TIE's aggressive points was our farming policy - and as ANYONE knows it was The Imperium who first published farming policies and began to actively enforce them. That would indirectly imply we started the whole ball rolling on aggression.... would it not? Though i would point out our farming policy was done with good reason (very heavy farming of our ranks by members outside of TIE - damaging our players substantially)... so it was definately not the wrong decision.

I ll say it another time (i think i ve said it a couple of times now btw). The Imperium WAS aggressive before and leading up to this war. I honestly don't know how else i can say it simply enough. Just like T.O.C was also aggressive leading up to this war. Thats not to put the blame on T.O.C - nor is it to put the blame entirely on T.I.E. BOTH sides are responsible.

Now... i think i ve made it clear TIE is interested in equal peace. As for "lasting peace" - situations occur which can't possibly be predicted or anticipated. There is no way T.I.E could ever bind itself to the unknown - nor is there anyway T.O.C can either. We d be prepared to agree to a peace-treaty however with a set exit clause (which could be used in the event a future situation ever warrants it). That should give a reasonable assurance of long-term peace between our alliances.

I have a question for you to consider btw: What is the point in playing Aderan Wars and developing your account if all you are ever going to do with it is bank, trade and grow army size/ U.P? This is a rhetorical question - i know many in T.I.E enjoy peace but also develop their accounts in peace with the aim of ensuring they survive in war-time. If there is to never be war again - what motivation is there to keep playing/ pushing yourself?

Its up to you how you choose to intepret this post. T.I.E is genuinely interested in a equal peace and we ve attempted this several times now. Each time T.O.C has rejected it flat or not taken us seriously.

So.. again i invite someone from T.O.C to engage with T.I.E on finding a solution to this war which does not involve in the next several months being a slogging match where numerous TIE & TOC accounts get ruined.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the bit about the SHC post and Cabal. I actually explained the night before TIE came under attack we were attempting to flush out the spy via posting deliberate false information on our forum's which we hoped would then be forwarded to FIRE - who would then tell us that information and we would be able to identify the spy based on the information listed (each forum had a slightly different piece of information i.e. a different time-frame for what was being discussed). We made what we were doing known to FIRE. THAT was the cooperatation we were hoping to have & under the impression we had agreed upon before we were then attacked - the messages FIRE recieved being sent to TIE so we could find out who Cabal was via the unique "markers" in the post.

It was an unfortunate circumstance which led to the attack on T.I.E - but it has always been present in T.I.E considerations when it comes to FIRE since then..... Just like any future dealings you have with TIE you will always keep in mind how this war began (TIE starting it).

With lasting peace I mean peace that is not broken at the first available opportunity. And that has enough of a mechanism to resolve conflicts to prevent stupid little things leading to war.
I'd like to die for a big cause, rather than a small one.

Well 2 cents to throw in and I am keeping it very short. There are players out there who do not want peace and want to fight to the death. All I can read are accusations after accusations after accusations. People stop acting like a bunch of kiddies and get over it. You did this and you did that, but you know I know you did this and you did that. Peace can be painful and difficult if you only see your point of view.

I agree with Magnus :p

I like War and I am pissed that my strike is so shitty low :p

(working on it though - little me )

Jiro wrote:With lasting peace I mean peace that is not broken at the first available opportunity. And that has enough of a mechanism to resolve conflicts to prevent stupid little things leading to war.
I'd like to die for a big cause, rather than a small one.

That is something i attempted to do with the previous proposed peace treaty. If you can think of any suggestions/ modifications then do please make them known....

I don't think anyone particuarly enjoys the shadow of war hanging over their alliance - The Imperium included. Believe it or not i d like to be able to to refocus The Imperium back more in favour of economic growth vs. Military development - something we ve not been able to do for the last 6 - 8 weeks since tensions started increasing.

Incidentally - there seems to be a perception that The Imperium "breaks things" at first opportunity. I ll point out some dates here for you to consider:

- October the 13th 2009. 1st WR/ TIE war commences - later joined in by GD & Hachigan.
- 2nd of December 2009 1st WR, Geto-dacii & Hachigan/ TIE war ends

- 28th of December 2009 2nd WR/ TIE war commences.
- 4th of January 2010 2nd WR/ TIE war ends.

- Febuary the 8th 2010. First FIRE/ TIE War (really a skirmish) commences.
- Febuary the 9th 2010. First FIRE/ TIE war ends.

- June the 8th 2010. First TOC/ TIE war commences.

In between when this war commenced and when the last WR war ended The Imperium & WR had peaceful relations for 154 days.
In between when this war commenced and when the last FIRE skirmish ended, The Imperium & FIRE had peaceful relations for 120 days.

If it wasn't for the FIRE skirmish.... TIE & FIRE's relations would have been as peaceful for the same duration as our's were with WR's.

To say The Imperium breaks agreement's at first opportunity i personally feel is a complete exaggeration. We were at peace for 42% (4/10's) of a entire year with World Republic between now and our last war. We were at peace with FIRE for 33% (3/10's) of a entire year between our last war and now.

CLEARLY the facts do not support the view The Imperium attacks at "first opportunity". If we did there would not be such prolonged periods of peace. Perhaps moving onto a peaceful-solution to this war would be easier if people adopt a more objective/ detached view of events?

Edit: Incase anyone is wondering on what the figures are - Since October the 13th (the first day of the first TIE/ WR war) The Imperium has spent 180 days at peace and 74 days at war - this includes today (June the 21st). Thats about 29.13% of our time spent at war.....

So today I got a message together about leaving the war. I have had various players message and ask about leaving. So I figured instead of sending it to 1 player or 2, send it to all. I did try and not send it to the leaders, but it seems I did send one to Lore Ish. Here is the message I sent.

Good day I am Seaborgium. I am a leader in TIE. I was told by a few players in ToC that they don't want to be hit. I have discussed with other TIE leaders that if anyone who wants to leave the war to post here: https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/empire-wars-treaties-f3/surrender-thread-t1653.htm
After which time TIE would discuss it and we would let you know.

I got various responses

Hi

if your leader of TIE my dont u have the 1ic spot ?

seaborgium Wrote Good day I am Seaborgium. I am a leader in TIE. I was told by a few players in ToC that they don't want to be hit. I have discussed with other TIE leaders that if anyone who wants to leave the war to post here: https://aderanwars.forumotion.com/empire-wars-treaties-f3/surrender-thread-t1653.htm
After which time TIE would discuss it and we would let you know.


I'm small and fairly new to this game, but I'm also loyal. Lord Ishurue has always been fair to me and never given me reason to doubt him, while TIE broke a NAP. I'm not claiming to know the whole story, but my experiences, which are the only things I can be sure aren't just propaganda, say TIE is the aggressor and TOC is not. I'll fight for TOC as long as Ish commands.
Though on a slightly related note, Kenzu seems like an idiot and I really like SA47. So really, I'm fighting for Mujengan, not for TOC. I appreciate the offer, but I decline to surrender.

Respects,
(respect for the player)

Wait, so even if I post that I surrender and follow all the rules, might TIE end up discussing things and rejecting my surrender?

Do you really call whats been going on a war?
I'm still finding it hard to believe that they keep calling this game a war game,
or this alliance an alliance, lol, war to me is being able to mass down an entire alliance within less of a days time, and to sit on the enemy until they surrender,
no this games no war game, its a barbie doll summer camp vacation,
argue, fight, war, but don't hurt no ones account, make it so no one can mass and zero peoples accounts, and then top it off with a whole bunch of useless stupid idea's that lamers come up with, lol thats how I see this game, as for this war,
it's a grudge match between a bad writer and a couple spoiled kids, if it wasn't for this war I wouldn't be in any alliances, you can't see attacks as they happen and
they don't have alliance attack logs for members to view and be able to watch each others back, like a real alliance should be able too. soon as this "war" is over i'm out of this make believe alliance, and soon as i'm able to get back on SGW i'm out of this wanna be war game, surrender? that i can't do, it's against my religion, fight? only if ordered too, no more no less, and later I havn't been hearing nothing from no one,
theres a huge lack of comunication, so when you say war, I only can answer by, what war? for I hear nothing, kind of like sitting in the dark over here.
any way I hope this war ends soon, I care less who wins, I wish everyone involved good luck, I did hit a tie member once today, I lost the most units, i really don't care, it wasn't a war hit, he hit my officer once so i hit him once,
have a good day,

(respect for the player

Thanks for offer but i am not runner!

Sea, you're a day too late with your email, I was already hit, for about 4 BILLION worth of defense.

While I have responded to most of these, I didn't answer everyone. There are some that I had to highlight part of the message then I got the really nasty message back for.
I also got this from someone which I almost spit my water out.

Spoiler:

I am now positive that everyone in both TIE and TOC know how to get out of the war individually. TOC members have been notified by Seaborgium, I have notified all TIE members. If someone got a double PM, I am sorry.

LOL.

I think i just died of laughter at that last message sent to WR. A TIE surrender? lmao

Yes... The Imperium's gonna surrender when:

1.) We are killing a ton more than we are loosing - even accounting for the enemy's decreasing economic advantage vs. TIE
2.) We are farming a ton more than we are loosing
3.) We ve massed more players than we ve lost
4.) TIE's members are becoming more and more actively involved in the war - and seem to be greatly enjoying killing stuff at rates of about 2 dead enemy UU for every 1 of their's.
5.) TIE's massed members are generally rebuilt back to levels where they are now killing more TOC members
6.) Increasingly large portions of TOC are offerring to surrender to us
7.) Increasingly large portions of TOC are considering leaving TOC after the war
8.) TIE members by and large seem happy with the way this war has been handled
9.) T.O.C communications seem to be like a joke - i mean... does anyone in T.O.C even actually know which of their members have been massed, or how many? Do they even know the sheer scale of destruction many of their members have now sufferred and continue to loose in this war?
10.) Increasing chunks of TOC are now combat-ineffective and simply sitting ducks for TIE farming.

CLEARLY we should surrender.... so, The Imperium hereby unconditionally *surrenders*


*we don't really surrender. Thats just sarcasm

Yeah I tried to make sure I didn't do that either. I tried to message leaders but it seems I got carried away.

ian wrote:LOL.

I think i just died of laughter at that last message sent to WR. A TIE surrender? lmao

Sorry Ian but Vesper did, and there were 4 or 5 others that left, but never posted here.

seaborgium wrote:

ian wrote:LOL.

I think i just died of laughter at that last message sent to WR. A TIE surrender? lmao

Sorry Ian but Vesper did, and there were 4 or 5 others that left, but never posted here.

Vesper, Command92, Strider, Dune..... thats it who have withdrawn from this war completely.... The Imperium itself surrendering though? There'a more chance of hell freezing over.

On June the 9th i said:

We're outnumbered in total power at the moment TIE has 355billion power - FIRE, WR & emperor's between them have 431.6billion power - a difference of just 76.6billion.

Unless i m very much mistaken... FIRE & WR alone had at least a 90billion power lead ahead of TIE before this war began.... let alone including Emperor's. You have 134 players to our 52 players....

Incidentally - congratulations on killing 1million TIE miner's yesterday between 8 players. TIE annihilated about close to 7.5million miner's last night between 2 players in response....

On June the 15 I said:

Currently The Imperium has 316,904,065,310 total power. This is since having lost or removed 6 (2 of them among our strongest, 2 of them solid medium level players) members from our ranks - we have dropped in power by 38,095,934,690 power with 6 members having been removed or dismissed.

Between them FIRE, WR & Emperor's have 404,467,240,853 power. They ve lost 27,132,759,147 power roughly. They ve lost 4 players.

The difference in power between TIE & T.O.C is now 87,563,175,543. It was 76.6billion.

Overall... given its now 46 vs. 130 i don't think T.I.E's doing too badly.

Today Its:

The Imperium: 286,042,862,045
T.O.C: 361,059,004,345

Thats a difference of 75,016,142,300 again @ Jiro - how's your war of attrition when it comes to TIE's power looking now for you?

44 vs. 125 members.

The Imperium's total member war-experience: 4,629,350,735 (thats not including vesper & deathguard who ve done a lot of destruction to TOC in this war)
The Coalition of Chaos's total member war-experience: 4,710,896,947 <----------- TIE will soon overtake that

Ok just to give a summary

June 9th
TIE has 355 b power
ToCs has 431.6 b power
a difference of just 76.6 b

June 15th
TIE has 316.9b power
ToC has 404.4 b power
a difference of just 87.5 b

Today
TIE has 286 b power
ToC has 361 b power
a difference of 75 b

Hehehehe, its worth mentioning June the 9th was before Vesper, Dune, Strider & Deathguard had left The Imperium - and before Inox & another TIE member were dismissed for inactivity... so their power was counted in June the 9th's records.

If we compared June the 9th's results minus those 7 players vs. T.O.C's power at the time i m fairly confident TOC would have had about a 100 - 120billion advantage over us. They are now down to 75billion and still dropping

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It's what we do best, we die standing."-General Sturnn, 412th Cadian Imperial Guard Regiment.

The Coalition of Chaos is killing itself throwing their forces at The Imperium Battle Lines. They are in some cases gaining ground (bringing our accounts down) - but for every gain they make, The Imperium makes 2 or 3 gains in other sectors of the battle. For every 1000 soldiers The Coalition of Chaos kills - they have lost 1540.

The Imperium WILL drive the Coalition of Chaos back. No Retreat. No Surrender.

Remember the fallen. Purge the faithless. Burn the heretic

Long Live The Imperium!

ian wrote:The Coalition of Chaos is killing itself throwing their forces at The Imperium Battle Lines. They are in some cases gaining ground (bringing our accounts down) - but for every gain they make, The Imperium makes 2 or 3 gains in other sectors of the battle. For every 1000 soldiers The Coalition of Chaos kills - they have lost 1540.

First of all I think the numbers you state here are greatly exaggerated.

Secondly, even if you have slightly more kills than TOC, then this is not only because of tech difference, but also because some of your massers use mobile artillery against tanks and IFV, and tanks against IFV, which obviously means we will have more UU losses, but not much more losses in terms of kuwal value.

Thirdly, I am sure you neglected the millions of UU TIE has lost in order to finance their technological advance. This is something that you shouldn't neglect.

kenzu, ffs stop picking on Ian,man...He is right in his calculations and stuff: in fact he doesn't have a thing to do all day long...and if you guys manage to take TIE down and if all TIE members have 0 stats Ian would still post on the forum that TIE is rank one and that it s the greatest alliance possible(better that USA with China and Russia)...so don't mess with TIE can't you see that Ian is trying desperately to tel us that since the war started:

- they have spent 0 kwal and made us spend 425875387519659286528635083601865936 trillions of kwal

- they almost lost 1 unit and we lost almost 368569186358237691862876527313761 units...you got to believe him,man...he rules and you can't deny his calculus. Tomorrow he will announce us that TIE still has 24861981365196510861895168965195689156198 ST left for every member and 916198365912386529865982365916519652975629 AT's plus 7816395713695165928560181956923869938659 idle units that they can always use to take you guys down.Great maths, Ian...keep up the good work, Euclid:P