Attack losses

My soldiers march onto the battlefield.
My army was composed of:
10,761 Super Soldiers, 0 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
10761 Super Soldiers were armed with IFV
Fahn awaited the invaders with the following:
267 Super Soldiers, 39 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
267 Super Soldiers were armed with APC
39 Regular Soldiers were armed with APC
Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 116,390,976 damage on the enemy!
This results in 3 casualties amongst the defending troops!
The defending forces return fire and inflict 1,682,373 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 32 casualties in their enemies ranks!

My forces Defeated the enemy!

As Fahn's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
It is reported that 183,750,042 Kuwal has been taken from the realm of the defeated.
My army returns back to his homeworld, glorious and praised by many.
Fahn's troops gather their dead and return to their homes, awaiting their visitors to come again to match their strength once more.


Now seriously my strike was almost 100times larger and i still took more losses than this guy! AND i was using hit and run aas my attack options to reduce my losses overall. How does this work exactly?

combat strategy only affects results of assault battles.
Kuwal attacks are unaffected by this.

Other than that, the unit losses formula works as it always does.
% of units lost modified by ratio of attack vs defense

Im just saying - when my strike is that much bigger i shoudnt take more losses than the enemy if any losses at all. That defence was barely above 0 yet it made the difference between no losses and 39, now 39 is not a problem in itself bit if i was to keep raiding it builds up pretty quickly! Just saying surely there should be a point when a certain multiple of strike above a defence incurs no losses to attacker... or maybe there already is and if so what is this value please?

Just say that it's complete news to you that when farming, the attacker suffers 6-10 times more losses than the defender.

Well ok, so here it goes.
Attacking and Raiding has 2% attack losses and 0.25% defense losses.

Any further questions?

Erm yes actually if its not too much trouble

Is this 2% relative to total strike force? That would mean farming someone with say 1mil attack supers even if they have a tiny defence would be hugely unprofitable as youd lose 2% each time

OR is this 2% relative to something else?

Maybe im not making myself clear - you said the ratio of strike to defence plays a role in the determination of losses to both sides. Im asking is there a value for this ratio for which the attacker suffers no losses and if there is what is this value - IE how many times larger should i build my strike than the average defence so that i can farm with 0 casulties if it is even possible.

ok, sorry

No, there is no ratio that will allow you to have 0 losses.

Hmmm ok let me rephrase my question into a proposal then -

Dont you think there should be? i mean having say 100 times more power than the enemy defence should mean its almost like fighting someone with 0 def.

Also id like to point out that now without wep damages massing someone actually loses you more attack soldiers the higher your strike! So the best strike to mass someone with is an attack almost equal to their defence!!! I know you can sab, assassinate ect ect but Covert turns are even more limiting than supply turns as the maximum you can store is 60! I know you want to make the game more tactical but "Get really big club and bash head" method should still be allowed and not punished!

Hai-Shulud clearly makes a point here.

I would like to support him and propose a change in which the maximum losses of the attacker in farm/raid cannot exceed a multiple of 10

admin said:
"Well ok, so here it goes.
Attacking and Raiding has 2% attack losses and 0.25% defense losses."

Let's change it to:
Attacking and Raiding deals:
0.25% losses on defenders
and 2% of attackers losses on attacker, but a maximum 2% of defenders total amount of units.

This means that if the defender looses only 3 units, you can attack even with a million troops, but wont loose more than 30.

Am i missing something or did admin just say that if you start off with 1mil supers and mass some1 with 100k defense supers if you lose 10 times what they have you will end up at 0 at the same time sine the striker takes 10 times the loses per hit..

let's see... 1 mil supers attacking 10k supers

attacker: 1 mil SS armed with lvl 12 weapons
defender: 10k SS armed with knives

The attacker manages to slaughter 25 SS from the defending force.
The defender manages to strike back and slaughter 20000 SS from the attacking force.

Is this right?

ioz wrote:let's see... 1 mil supers attacking 10k supers

attacker: 1 mil SS armed with lvl 12 weapons
defender: 10k SS armed with knives

The attacker manages to slaughter 25 SS from the defending force.
The defender manages to strike back and slaughter 20000 SS from the attacking force.

Is this right?

Definitely not.

But as far as I know, once the changes from test server get implemented, the destruction of weapons will be depending on their weapon value which hopefully means that the weapon value of lost attackers will be same as weapon value of lost defenders.

But I could be wrong.

Partially
The attacker manages to slaughter 56 SS from the defending force.

For simplicity sake and so that other people can do the maths themselves let's assume attacker has IFV's
The defender manages to strike back and slaughter 159 SS from the attacking force.

btw why are people asking this question now? the system has been out for over a year now

maybe we are just now understanding it?

Well before the wep damage meant that once the defenders weps broke you no longer took losses. This meant we never really noticed that the attacker took more losses as when the defence was taken down the defender lost a lot more units.

However now that your testing out new things such as no wep damage it has come to our attention.

I have a simple solution - (please point out if i have made wrong assumptions anywhere) I believe you have a base number for losses which is modified according to a formula derived from the attacker power to defender power ratio
- This formula i believe is currently linear and never 0. Ie y=x+c
- So the base loss percentage modifier is never 0
- If you change the formula to a polynomial which intersects at 0 i think you will find a much better system

Now i can provide some help for you here and give you the entire mathematical model for you to try out if you are interested. The point is you have to decide a critical value for which if the attack power is that much time bigger than the defence power there are no losses.

Lets say this value is 10 - your base rate is 2% losses you will observe the following behaviour

Strike equal to defence - 2% losses
Strike 1.5*defence - 1.8% losses
Strike 2*defence - 1.6% losses
Strike 3*defence - 1.3% losses
Strike 4* defence - 1.0% losses
Strike 5*defence - 0.5% losses
Strike 6*defence - 0.4%losses
Strike 7*defence - 0.3% losses
Strike 8*defence - 0.2% losses
Strike 9*defence - 0.1% losses
Strike 10*defence - 0 losses

This is an example of the behaviour youd expect and not eh exact values obviously - You can play around with the skew and other stuff but you need to gimme feedback if your interested

Hai-Shulud wrote:Well before the wep damage meant that once the defenders weps broke you no longer took losses. This meant we never really noticed that the attacker took more losses as when the defence was taken down the defender lost a lot more units.

No, I dont think that's it.

Whoever is a regular farmer on main server will tell you that it's perfectly normal for the attacker to lose several times more units than the defender in every attack. (of course the ratio gets better if you have all points in attack and high attack tech, etc.)

edit:
I think this is going in the wrong direction, please say if you're talking about changing attack losses during farm/raid missions or during battles

Well im talking about farming and raiding.

Im aware of the high percentage of losses on farming and raiding - im just saying this is punishing people with really high attacks when farming which doesn't make sense to me - ie when farming someone with 10mil defence the person with 100mil attack losing more troops than someone attacking with 20mil attack.

My suggestion is simply to alter your loss calculations in order to in-corporate the attack vs defence ratio in a more sensible way.

It is only a suggestion for you to try out on the test server, your game your call, just trying to help.

Hai-Shulud wrote:Im aware of the high percentage of losses on farming and raiding - im just saying this is punishing people with really high attacks when farming which doesn't make sense to me

Actually it's quite the opposite.
ATM it would be absolutely unprofitable for someone with 100k attackers to farm someone with 5-10k defenders

But with this update, no matter what strike, you can always farm the lower tier defenses and reach the same profit as the lower tier strikes.
It's no difference if you farm with a big or a small strike, you'll always suffer the same losses.

Yes that my point - Why would someone take larger losses with a larger strike against a defence compared to someone with a lower strike?

Its not about profit - its about the whole concept of farming. If you have upgrade your strike you should do better against people with a smaller defence not worse than before you upgraded!

As the example i gave - someone with 1mil attack supers can hitting a person with only 1 defence super would be catastrophic for the striker.

With your current system if i calculate the MAX amount of time im offline, the income i produce in that time and so build a defence which means the person who attacked me would lose more than he stole i can NEVER be farmed without being massed first! Now in the test server as the incomes are so huge it would be almost impossible to build a defence high enough and keep it however should this update be released on the main server could easily protect my 600mil i leave out overnight and eradicate all farming on myself!

The point im trying to make is - If you have a shoot off 10 vs 1000 those 10 men arent gonna kill more if they were fighting against 1,000,000.

Hai-Shulud wrote:The point im trying to make is - If you have a shoot off 10 vs 1000 those 10 men arent gonna kill more if they were fighting against 1,000,000.

Ok, apparently something was lost so I'm adding bold red part to the text.

Admin wrote:It's no difference if you farm with a big or a small strike, you'll always suffer the same losses (by "same" I mean numerically, not %-wise).

Did my point come across now that the following is true:
1) nothing is going to change in terms of how units lost are calculated
2) it's exactly what you say it should be

Hmm my bad now i understand and i guess its one way of doing things. I can't argue my suggestion is better - just different. So thanks clarifying.