Killing miners

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Killing miners

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:35 am

So i tested it on the number one account which is feeded to extreme btw and i disapointed of how it works. Perhaps you shouldn`t limit this attack to the number of armed soldiers and let only that limit of 0.25% per attack?

Final analysis of the mission indicates a total of
0 Workers and
894 Miners
to have been killed in the onslaught.

killing 900 miners out of 700.000 is nothing. This attack is very expensive and i don`t think that someone will use it efficiently in main, considering that the price of attacks goes with the raiding rates.

Just an opinion.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Nomad on Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:31 am

Well the easier you make it, the easier it is to abuse. As it stands now it cost the attackers dearly so it will only be used in extreme cases. If its made easy and cheap then bigger alliances can squash lone wolves and smaller alliances for single kewal hits.

It a fine balancing act.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:59 am

They can`t afford this attack either the way it is now. But they can afford to train only miners, getting bigger incomes and when they get on them "single kewal hits" smash you to pieces.

It`s just how i see it... you`ll see that i`m right in about 6 months time.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:10 am

well i know where youre coming at and suggestions for tweaks are welcome, considering no real changes have been done to it since release.

now upping killing rate is an option, i intentionally made it really low in the start because I had no data to work with.
However in that case it'd be accompanied with the option to either target only miners or only workers (NEVER both), but increasing killing rates 3-4 times.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:53 pm

Sounds like a plan. I`m retained to propose any death rate because i don`t want to be blamed for it, but for now, this attack is just for cosmetic purposes because it won`t be used by anyone as it is. So yeah, i backup the ideea to increase the killing rate and to select what is the target between workers and miners.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Nomad on Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:31 am

I dont really see the point as your always going to kill the higher producer, or which ever there is more of at that time. I guess you can make it the attackers choice, but I'm sure an auto hit feature for which every there is more of would be easiest.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Lucien Lachance on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:02 am

i woudl have to agree with nigatsu about increasing death rates, as pointed, what goods an attack that does next to nothing when compared to the costing, this form of attack shoudl always be the most expensive, but 1% is too low for it to be an effective means of lowering someones income

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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:15 am

initially the plan was something like army being able to go and actually kill income units creating long term decrease of income

and airforce having the ability of supression bombardment temporarily decreasing income depending on how much you bombard the target but with several hits you can bring down the income by 30-50% for a day or two, but you wouldn't be killing anything here, just "stopping production"
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Re: Killing miners

Post by ian on Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:55 am

I d say killing miners should be increased by a factor of 4 and the amount of supply turns needed reduced to 1/2 of the amount - so requiring 10 supply turns to kill 1% of miners with each invasion hit.

Example of how things currently stand:

At current UU and Attack turn rates, 10 A.T can roughly get you about 140 UU if you raid with them currently - so 14,000,000 million kuwals worth.

15 A.T used in killing miners, therefore for it to be practically used, should kill more than 21,000,000 kuwals worth of enemy resources - 210 UU.

0.25% of 300,000 miners = 750 UU's worth. 0.25% of 150,000 miners = 375 UU's worth. 0.25% of 85,000 miners = 212 UU.

This means, even once you factor in repair costs and your own losses, anyone with above 100,000 miners could probably have profitable miner-kill hits conducted on them. Anyone past 100,000 miners could potentially, if the attacker has enough attack and supply turns - be reduced down to 100,000 miners - and rightfully so if we are serious about the income units ever being balanced.

Thus, to throw some more figures out there - to reduce a person from 300,000 miners down to 100,000 miners would take 439 attacks - 6,585 attack turns - 8,780 supply turns - thats more supply turns that 4 players can hold.

Farmers are suppossed to be the "safe" option - balancing less income, with being safe from invaded and loosing their income units. Right now though, miners are practically untouchable to any serious extent - so the farmers chief benefit/ advantage is irrelevant.

Increasing the kill rate by a factor of 4 - from 0.25% to 1% of miners killed - would have the effect of in the above example, a player being reduced from 300,000 miners to 100,000 miners would take 110 hits - 1,650 attack turns and 2,200 supply turns without the reduction in supply turns.

Reducing the supply turns to 10 per hit, would thus have the implication of using up 1100 supply turns to reduce a player from 300,000 to 100,000 miners.

Fast forward to 2months time, when people have 2million+ miners, and want to reduce them down to 100,000 miners (which would still be profitable to do so) - it would take 299 hits - 4,485 attack turns and 5,980 supply turns if requiring 20 supply turns - or 2,990 supply turns if requiring 10 supply turns - or 1,495 supply turns if only requiring 5 supply turns.

Increase the kill rate by a factor of 4 by all means - but also reduce the supply turns needed from 20 down to eithier 10 or 5 (prefarably 5). You might also want to tie in the maximum amount of supply turns someone can hold, with their army size or something to allow a steadily rising limit on the maximum amount of supply turns - to factor in increased army sizes and therefore massively increased use of supply turns in future wars.

Right now though - with the supply turn consumption - its physically impossible to go 1 vs. 1 with someone in a total war, due to not having enough supply turns - and this doesn't take into account other demands on the supply turns!

Increasing the kill rates by a factor of 4 - and reducing supply turns down to 5 per hit, coupled with a steady increase in the total supply turns players can hold - should set the game up for the future Smile
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:01 pm

ok, changed the following
1) power required to kill income units went down by 33% (so lower repairs required when attacking and therefore damage done vs damage suffered goes up)
2) Death rates went up
Miners 0.25%=>0.8-1.0%
Workers 0.01%=>0.2-0.4%
3) ST cost went down 20=>15

To clarify, should I ever talk about total war, I mean total war.
That is that even after 2 weeks of fighting and no one rebuilding anything but their strikes, there should still be something left to destroy because you wont have enough ST's to kill everything anytime soon.

This is kinda the type of attack that was meant for people to throw in all the spare ST's you got to deal extra damage.

It is meant to be physically impossible for a 1v1 or even 2v1 to be able to reach the limit that you wont have anything left to destroy.
At least that's the intention

One good reason?
We might actually see legitimate surrenders and ceasefires as both sides might still have an incentive to engage in diplomatic talks to save what's left to save.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by ian on Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:58 pm

Admin wrote:ok, changed the following
1) power required to kill income units went down by 33% (so lower repairs required when attacking and therefore damage done vs damage suffered goes up)
2) Death rates went up
Miners 0.25%=>0.8-1.0%
Workers 0.01%=>0.2-0.4%
3) ST cost went down 20=>15

To clarify, should I ever talk about total war, I mean total war.
That is that even after 2 weeks of fighting and no one rebuilding anything but their strikes, there should still be something left to destroy because you wont have enough ST's to kill everything anytime soon.

This is kinda the type of attack that was meant for people to throw in all the spare ST's you got to deal extra damage.

It is meant to be physically impossible for a 1v1 or even 2v1 to be able to reach the limit that you wont have anything left to destroy.
At least that's the intention

One good reason?
We might actually see legitimate surrenders and ceasefires as both sides might still have an incentive to engage in diplomatic talks to save what's left to save.

Fair enough, i guess that would make wars a lot more interesting/ enjoyable rather than the "blow everything up... then spend the next several weeks simply banking/ farming/ raiding, and occassionally sabbing" pattern which normally happens lol.

Updates look good - and the maths still fits Smile - UU is worth 100,000 currently - 105,000 including addittional miner training costs. 1 miner gives a bonus of 20 kuwal a turn. As such, for a person to be better off having a miner than farmers, that player will have to avoid loosing that single miner in a war for 5250 turns (109.3days) - excluding admin efficiency.

If UU rates climb to 140,000 (145,000 including extra miner training cost vs. farmer), the player will have to avoid loosing that 1 miner for 7,250 turns - 151 days. 160k rates - 8,250 turns - 171.5 days etc... Throw admin efficiency into the equation, and long term UU price increases, having miners really doesn't start to look like such a bright move....

Any move to make it easier to kill miners is a good move as it balances out the farmers (advantage = not being killable) more fairly with miners (advantage = extra income) Smile
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Re: Killing miners

Post by ian on Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:09 pm

Admin wrote:ok, changed the following
1) power required to kill income units went down by 33% (so lower repairs required when attacking and therefore damage done vs damage suffered goes up)
2) Death rates went up
Miners 0.25%=>0.8-1.0%
Workers 0.01%=>0.2-0.4%
3) ST cost went down 20=>15

Any news on when this is likely to be implemented into the main game? Do you need it testing more?
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Nomad on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:23 am

Admin wrote:initially the plan was something like army being able to go and actually kill income units creating long term decrease of income

and airforce having the ability of supression bombardment temporarily decreasing income depending on how much you bombard the target but with several hits you can bring down the income by 30-50% for a day or two, but you wouldn't be killing anything here, just "stopping production"

I somehow missed this last part about the airforce. Is that coded yet? or still to come?
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:15 am

hmm well it's partially coded but i've been discussing it with my brother to rework the idea.

so no, not yet coded
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:57 am

ok, did another major change to the invasion mission and i think will be moving it onto main server soonish.

Death rates (before change => after change)
Worker 0.1% => 0.4%
Miner 0.25%=> 1.1%
Power needed to kill one worker 30000=> 5000
Power needed to kill one miner 18000 => 3000
ST cost per attack 20=>10
AT cost per attack 15=>10

NEW!
You can only target one unit type with an attack as opposed to always targetting and killing both types, a dropdown box is available to pick a target.
If you wish to target both you will kill 0.3% Workers and 0.75% Miners


Last edited by Admin on Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Kenzu on Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:17 am

Admin wrote:ok, did another major change to the invasion mission and i think will be moving it onto main server soonish.

Death rates (before change => after change)
Worker 0.1% => 0.45%
Miner 0.25%=> 1.2%
Power needed to kill one worker 30000=> 5000
Power needed to kill one miner 18000 => 3000
ST cost per attack 20=>10
AT cost per attack 15=>10

NEW!
You can only target one unit type with an attack as opposed to always targetting and killing both types, a dropdown box is available to pick a target. If you dont choose any, then miners will be targeted by default

I think you should always let all types be attacked.
Otherwise all players will be tempted to have workers and miners if they have don't focus on farmers.

After the new change, anyone who would have only workers or only miners would simply be an idiot, because it makes sense that you would spread the risk.

I propose:
Death rates (before change => after change)
Worker 0.1% => 0.2%
Miner 0.25%=> 0.5%

and BOTH will get killed in a single hit.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:51 am

K third option to hit both units:
Workers killed 0.3%
Miners killed 0.75%

attacking both types can kill more units in total than if you simply attack a specific unit
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Kenzu on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:00 pm

Example why it makes no sense to attack workers and miners separately:

If I have 100.000 workers:
i produce 6.000.000 kuwal per turn
If I get attacked I will loose: 450 workers in each hit

If I have 75.000 workers and 25.000 miners
I produce 75.000x60 + 25.000x70 = 6.250.000 kuwal per turn
If I get attacked I will loose either 75.000 x 0.0045 = 337
OR 25.000 x 0.012 = 300

In a normal situation if you decide to earn more money, you will have higher risc, but after the new update would be released it will be possible to earn more with less risk. Just as I have showed you.

It will be much harder for new players to understand this concept. Before I simply told them, if you have farmers you have no risk of loosing them. If you have workers you earn more but you have some risk, but if you have miners the income and risk is higher.

Now the new update would require all players who want to have highest income with lowest risk to use a formula 1.2/0.45 = 2.66667
which means that for each 1 miner they have, they would have to train 2.6667 workers to maximise profit and minimise risk.

In other words this game would get more complicated solving nothing, which couldn't be solved by simply increasing the percentage of how many workers AND miners will get killed in each hit.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Magnus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:18 am

HMMMM sounds interesting. Units that are killable sounds fine with me, but lets see it in a different sense than MATH. In History every INCOME unit or back then Farmers where protectetd by the armys around. Only after the Armys where destroyed or almost completly wipped out the income aka farmers where killed. If there is any closeness to real life then there should be protectionist for the income units to come in. Example also taken on castles in respect to the game. When a army attacked a base it was a good amount harder to kill the people inside. Why ? Easy, since they had walls inbetween. If we are goind to implement the up of killing income units then why not get protectors for em. A new unit type that protects just income units. It can and should be a limited amount, for lets say for every 10 income 1 protector. This is just a example and a lot of people would argue that this is stupid, but if the game needs to get a bit more complicated with the calc. then why not put in something like this. Strategically great since you really have to think on what to do with income units.
It is true that this might be a bit stupid for some, but every Person would seriously think on what to do. The Protectors can only be used to defend the income units. So in such only a invasion attack can hurt these units, because they only are needed here. If someone chooses not to have the units the income units get killed faster or as is after the update. If you do have em then the income units die slower. Think that would be a neat aspect to war since you never really know if you have a person with those kind of units. The only way would be to find out with spying and we know this does not really help all the time.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am

the thing with the walls is that your defense protects your income units. the def needs to get massed first otherwise it's hardly gonna be worthwhile.

And a big no to the defender. You have farmers which are untouchable, the rest produce more income but are killable to different degrees. The choice is yours
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Nomad on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:47 am

One question, because I always hated the idea of free kills, do you lose anything killing miners? Manpower wise?

And I noticed you said
the def needs to get massed first otherwise it's hardly gonna be worthwhile.

So you can kill income while massing? I mean it is possible, just costly?
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:46 am

damage dealt to defense weapons has 2 different formulas.
Massing attack deals a considerable damage
All other types of attacks deal minor damage, some, but if you tried massing with that it would 1: cost shatload of ST's and 2: horrible repairs and losses

manpowerwise you dont lose anything if target has 0 def, but there is a minimal amount of power you need to kill a unit so repairs will amount to a decent bill when doing the mission. Nowhere near what you can kill but still far from being a free kill
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Magnus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:08 pm

Admin wrote:the thing with the walls is that your defense protects your income units. the def needs to get massed first otherwise it's hardly gonna be worthwhile.

And a big no to the defender. You have farmers which are untouchable, the rest produce more income but are killable to different degrees. The choice is yours

ok i understand that the Def protects you until your def is down. So what happens with your income units when all your def is gone ? You invade until all your Miners and workers are gone ?????

well if the defender comes in then the farmers need not to be no kills, but hard kills. It would just make the game more strategic. not that this is a bad game. not at all. one of the best I have seen in a long time.
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Admin on Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:33 pm

no farmers will remain unkillable
problems would arise even if they were hard to kill

should a reset server get introduced then the possibility of farmers being killable could be considered, but not here

and yes if your def is gone you can get attacked until all your miners are gone but:
1) if they use all their ST's on killing miners they wont end up with many turns to keep on fighting in the days/weeks to follow
2) there's more to kill in an account than just miners/workers. Strikes need to get massed, assassins killed, spies assassinated... It all takes ST's
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Re: Killing miners

Post by Frozen Flame on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:41 pm

Changed significantly and will be released on Saturday (Read changes).If you wish to have some of your income units retrained into another type as a result of this change fill out the form, how many units you want taken from which type and into which type you want them changed.

this is pity...
now everybody will scare and put all miners into weak ones..
pff this possibility to change better ones into weaker ones its pathetic..

and please do something about massing thing..
its imposible to mass:
defence is needed just to protect your kuwal..
all you need builded up are covert and assasin.. and also there is no point of massing defence couse its better to kill soldiers with assasins or sabb weapons with spys..


edit:
you mentioned that its strategic.. you cant make a strategy if you get soo little attack turns and all other stuff that you need..
you need to wait for 1month if not more to collect everything needed for 1 mass..

and weapon repair is too expansive also are supers..

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