Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Keinutnai on Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:56 am

You should try to achieve your result with the minimum number of losses. And that's what efficiency is about.

We all want to achieve results, but it's not a bad idea to try to achieve it with as little losses as possible.



Manleva wrote:You then state 300% attack tech will be equally strong against a 225% defense tech and I have to ask equally strong to What?

What I meant is that if you have 300% attack tech and assaults someone with 225% defense tech, then both of you will have same losses.

Because 225 is 25% smaller than 300.
Or you could says 225 is 75% of 300.
300*0.75=225
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by kingkongfan1 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:52 am

Keinutnai wrote:You should try to achieve your result with the minimum number of losses. And that's what efficiency is about.

We all want to achieve results, but it's not a bad idea to try to achieve it with as little losses as possible.



Manleva wrote:You then state 300% attack tech will be equally strong against a 225% defense tech and I have to ask equally strong to What?

What I meant is that if you have 300% attack tech and assaults someone with 225% defense tech, then both of you will have same losses.

Because 225 is 25% smaller than 300.
Or you could says 225 is 75% of 300.
300*0.75=225

& this is considered "fair & balanced"? I think that 300% defense tech should have the same losses as 300% attack tech. you are just messing with me in your above post right... Wink Smile
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Keinutnai on Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:46 pm

Actually I noticed a mistake.

The attacker has 25% more losses than defender, BUT the defender has 20% less losses than the attacker.

Because 4 * 1.25 = 5
the 4% and 5% as specified by assaults

and 5 * (1-0.2) = 4


300 * (1-0.2) = 240
Therefore 300% attack tech is the same as 240% defense tech.


kingkongfan1 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:You should try to achieve your result with the minimum number of losses. And that's what efficiency is about.

We all want to achieve results, but it's not a bad idea to try to achieve it with as little losses as possible.



Manleva wrote:You then state 300% attack tech will be equally strong against a 225% defense tech and I have to ask equally strong to What?

What I meant is that if you have 300% attack tech and assaults someone with 225% defense tech, then both of you will have same losses.

Because 225 is 25% smaller than 300.
Or you could says 225 is 75% of 300.
300*0.75=225

& this is considered "fair & balanced"? I think that 300% defense tech should have the same losses as 300% attack tech. you are just messing with me in your above post right... Wink Smile

I never said that 300% being equally strong as 225% defense tech is fair or balanced. But neither sabotage or assassinations are balanced. If sabotage and assassinations were balanced, then if you sabotaged or assassinated a player who has same tech as you, you would lose same value as him, which is not the case.

But I understand why it has been done that way:
While massing you would lose more when crushing the defense, but you would lose much less with following missions.

I do prefer a system where I don't need bother making any calculations, just telling my units where to attack with a single button and simply knowing that better tech will always yield better results.
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by kingkongfan1 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:19 am

Keinutnai wrote:Actually I noticed a mistake.

The attacker has 25% more losses than defender, BUT the defender has 20% less losses than the attacker.

Because 4 * 1.25 = 5
the 4% and 5% as specified by assaults

and 5 * (1-0.2) = 4


300 * (1-0.2) = 240
Therefore 300% attack tech is the same as 240% defense tech.


here is a hit I would like for you to figure for me, I asked you to do it once before, but for whatever reason you didn't. so I present it here because I want you to show me where I lost 25% more than you, cause I am still not getting it...

kingkongfan1 wrote:here's one for you to work on, I made this hit before the war was ended.

Battle Report

KingKongFan1's soldiers march onto the battlefield.
KingKongFan1's army was composed of:
800,000 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
315306 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
31181 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
453513 Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank

Keinutnai awaited the invaders with the following:
615,029 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
615029 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery

Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 33,437,756,704 damage on the enemy!
This results in 25,893 casualties amongst the defending troops!

The defending forces return fire and inflict 30,186,001,562 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 38,006 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with normal attacks
The defenders held their ground with a standard defense
KingKongFan1's forces Defeated the enemy!

As Keinutnai's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
____________________

When this hit was made I had 300% in attack tech + 40/68 or 40% pbp in attack. spy ops showed keinutnai's defense tech to be 290%, his pbp's in defense are unknown.
____________________


if my math is correct then I lost ~50% more than you instead of 25%, but with this new info you have come out with about the techs, added to the +/- randomness thrown in, then this hit is starting to make sense
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Steveanaya on Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:13 am

You also used normal attacks. Using other strategies would cause more damage/less damage to you.
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Keinutnai on Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:46 am

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Keinutnai wrote:Actually I noticed a mistake.

The attacker has 25% more losses than defender, BUT the defender has 20% less losses than the attacker.

Because 4 * 1.25 = 5
the 4% and 5% as specified by assaults

and 5 * (1-0.2) = 4


300 * (1-0.2) = 240
Therefore 300% attack tech is the same as 240% defense tech.


here is a hit I would like for you to figure for me, I asked you to do it once before, but for whatever reason you didn't. so I present it here because I want you to show me where I lost 25% more than you, cause I am still not getting it...

kingkongfan1 wrote:here's one for you to work on, I made this hit before the war was ended.

Battle Report

KingKongFan1's soldiers march onto the battlefield.
KingKongFan1's army was composed of:
800,000 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
315306 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
31181 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
453513 Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank

Keinutnai awaited the invaders with the following:
615,029 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
615029 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery

Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 33,437,756,704 damage on the enemy!
This results in 25,893 casualties amongst the defending troops!

The defending forces return fire and inflict 30,186,001,562 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 38,006 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with normal attacks
The defenders held their ground with a standard defense
KingKongFan1's forces Defeated the enemy!

As Keinutnai's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
____________________

When this hit was made I had 300% in attack tech + 40/68 or 40% pbp in attack. spy ops showed keinutnai's defense tech to be 290%, his pbp's in defense are unknown.
____________________


if my math is correct then I lost ~50% more than you instead of 25%, but with this new info you have come out with about the techs, added to the +/- randomness thrown in, then this hit is starting to make sense

I guess I can try. You have a combined tech of 340% I had 290% + unknown PBP
You lost 47% more than me.

Calculation:

Average base power per unit

315306 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
31181 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
453513 Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank
You: 315306*1800+31181*1450+453513*1100

base values:
Average strength of your soldier: 1389.5
Average strenght of my soldier: 1450
my soldiers are 1.044 stronger (4.4% stronger)

Your tech *20% more losses by default / weaker soldiers = My tech / difference in real casualties
340*0.8 /1.044 = My tech / 1.47
260.53 = My tech / 1.47 => this means I need 260.53 def tech for equal losses in number of soldiers
or
260.53 = My tech / 1.33 (for a lucky hit)

383 = My tech
or
347 = My tech

My tech includes def tech + pbp

You say I had 290% def tech. This means that according to my calculationI have 57-93% def bonus in pbp. 43-69 pbp in defense. I have less than 43 pbp in def tech so there must be a flaw in the calculation, although it does give some estimation. You can always figure out pbp by spying on a person and making the appropriate calculation using base values.

I hope this helped.
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by kingkongfan1 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:55 am

Steveanaya wrote:You also used normal attacks. Using other strategies would cause more damage/less damage to you.

to my knowledge I used the best attack against the standard defense he was using at the time. tho I do understand that had he been using another defense, that a different attack would have been better.
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Special Agent 47 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:24 pm

So I find myself asking if the cost for tech levels is far to low? With techs passing the 400% mark, or making a stat 4 times as strong, could that be one of those issues that can't be seen until it happens?
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Kenzu on Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:00 pm

Special Agent 47 wrote:So I find myself asking if the cost for tech levels is far to low? With techs passing the 400% mark, or making a stat 4 times as strong, could that be one of those issues that can't be seen until it happens?

Maybe. I know what you mean. Big players can become very dangerous to small players.
But what can you do about it?

If you dont allow research beyond 400%, then people will get pissed.
But if you make it even more expensive, some people will still do it. A guy has already 370% tech.
However, if you make it prohibitively expensive, say 10 trillion per 1%, then it will be basically the same as not allowing it at all.

So what is your solution?
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Re: Still trying to understand how defenses work vs assaults

Post by Special Agent 47 on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:34 pm

I do not have one.

I do not agree with hard capping it, as you said its destructive

. Making it more expensive to me makes the most sense, and people should still do it.

I see no sense in making it prohibitively expensive.

I honestly think the biggest present issue is everyone waiting on the new updates that will make a massive difference in account set ups once released.
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