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TMI against World Republic

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Kingofshinobis1
fivel
stars
navblue
doxakk
vaga
Truestrike
Paladius
Gamniac
Smog
Special Agent 47
Beldar
curumo
mental
kingkongfan1
seaborgium
Keinutnai
21 posters

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TMI against World Republic - Page 12 Empty Re: TMI against World Republic

Post by kingkongfan1 Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:23 pm

here's one for you to work on, I made this hit before the war was ended.

Battle Report

KingKongFan1's soldiers march onto the battlefield.
KingKongFan1's army was composed of:
800,000 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
315306 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
31181 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
453513 Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank

Keinutnai awaited the invaders with the following:
615,029 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
615029 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery

Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 33,437,756,704 damage on the enemy!
This results in 25,893 casualties amongst the defending troops!

The defending forces return fire and inflict 30,186,001,562 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 38,006 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with normal attacks
The defenders held their ground with a standard defense
KingKongFan1's forces Defeated the enemy!

As Keinutnai's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
____________________

When this hit was made I had 300% in attack tech + 40/68 or 40% pbp in attack. spy ops showed keinutnai's defense tech to be 290%, his pbp's in defense are unknown.
____________________

kingkongfan1
kingkongfan1
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ID : kingkongfan1(98)
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Post by seaborgium Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:07 pm

Keinutnai wrote:You don't provide enough information.

How much attack tech does Seaborgium have, how many personal bonus points you have in attack?
Attack: 51 / 55 Points with a total bonus of 51 %
Current Level: 315%
Keinutnai wrote:How much defense tech does Gamniac have, how many personal bonus points are in defense. (I can check the latter myself).
You will have to ask him, or look since you are in the same alliance.


Keinutnai wrote:
seaborgium wrote:So working with Gamniac.
I assulted him once, yes he gave me the go ahead
I had 725,518 trained, I lost 30,957. That is 4.2668% of 725518.
He had 704,820, he lost 33,038. That is 4.6874%.

My superior tech saved me .7332%, it cost him an extra .6874% losses.

Now if this worked like Kenzu said I should have lost 5% of Gamniac units, ~35,241 units.

How can you say that you should lose 35,241 units? How did you calculate it?

Did you take into account that in each assault the attacker and defender dont do exact damage, but do somewhere between 90%-100% damage (these values are not exact)? In assaults there can also be lucky hits, where attacker deals only 90% and defender 100%, then the casualties will differ by additional 10%.
The ~35,241 is based off just raw % notice the ~ that means estimate.


seaborgium
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Post by Keinutnai Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:16 pm

I hope the following report will convince everyone that attacker doesn't lose 5% of his attacking units, but simply one quarter more units than the defender and defender simply loses 4% of his own units.

I attacked with 500,000 units against 15,000 units.
Someone always keeps telling that attacker loses 5% and defender 4%.
This would mean that if I assault with 500,000 units against 15,000 units, I should lose 25,000 units and defender only 600, but the game does not work like that.

In reality at equal techs defender should lose 600 and I should lose 750.

Defender used fortified and I use 2 different strategies and losses on both sides were around 1k,. Please take into account that I did about 5 assaults and my attack power fluctuated between 20.8 billion and 23.7 billion. Power fluctuation also skews the losses that you are trying to calculate.

I hope now you understand that it doesn't matter what your attack force is. Your losses are based on defenders force and the technology gap between you two and the fluctuation of the damage dealt.



2 assaults:

Keinutnai's soldiers march onto the battlefield.
Keinutnai's army was composed of:
500,659 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
500659 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
SA48 awaited the invaders with the following:
15,807 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
15807 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 21,743,820,633 damage on the enemy!
This results in 1,414 casualties amongst the defending troops!
The defending forces return fire and inflict 470,259,593 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 969 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with hit and run tactics
The defenders held their ground with enforced fortifications

Keinutnai's forces Defeated the enemy!

As SA48's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:


Keinutnai's soldiers march onto the battlefield.
Keinutnai's army was composed of:
502,206 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
502206 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
SA48 awaited the invaders with the following:
17,360 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
17360 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 22,719,799,440 damage on the enemy!
This results in 1,553 casualties amongst the defending troops!
The defending forces return fire and inflict 521,524,823 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 1,547 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with normal attacks
The defenders held their ground with enforced fortifications

Keinutnai's forces Defeated the enemy!

As SA48's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:

Keinutnai
Keinutnai
Aderan Assassin
Aderan Assassin

Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08

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Post by Gamniac Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:34 pm

I guess the hits put up to use as an example were too difficult.
The existing examples consist of mixed weaponry, the one used in the explanation given (against an infinitely weaker target in both army and techs, I can't help but notice, which will undoubtedly skew the odds and losses in no small amount) consists purely of Artillery versus Artillery.
Gamniac
Gamniac
Aderan Miner
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ID : 5094
Alliance : World Republic
Age : 35
Number of posts : 260
Location : At the bottom of a crater. I always wanted an underground base!
Registration date : 2012-04-12

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Post by Keinutnai Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:23 pm

Not sure what you mean. Do you consider my example a good example or not?

My example is supposed to show that attacking player will NOT lose 5% of the units he sends, but lose a number based on the number of units that the defenders loses.

I lost only about 0.3%

Attacker doesn't lose 5%, but defender does lose around 4%.
Attacker loses same action as defender *1.25 if strategies are normal on both sides.

That's why my losses were not 25,000 but instead pretty similar like the defenders losses.
Keinutnai
Keinutnai
Aderan Assassin
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Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08

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Post by Gamniac Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:58 am

I meant exactly what I said.
You preferred same weapons on both sides, while ignoring the examples with mixed weaponry.

As to the examples' worth, I hadn't given my opinion just yet, but here it is now:
You ignored the examples with full information, information that you requested, in favor of an example of your own, which is lacking such vital details as tech levels, which incidentally makes it rather difficult for me to check the results. Why then, did you ask for information you weren't going to work with anyway?
Furthermore, both of your examples were hits that involve attack and defense strategies, while the ones we were asking about were clean hits, both sides at normal. This would make this example better suited for pointing out the effectiveness of strategies, rather than the influence of techs on unit losses during Assaults, which was the point you were (repeatedly) asked to clarify.

As such, the example leaves a little something to desire.
Gamniac
Gamniac
Aderan Miner
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ID : 5094
Alliance : World Republic
Age : 35
Number of posts : 260
Location : At the bottom of a crater. I always wanted an underground base!
Registration date : 2012-04-12

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Post by Kenzu Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:18 am

Someone said that TMI-WR war was to be the last major war on AW. And look, only a month passed and there is yet another alliance war. Very Happy

Gamniac wrote:I meant exactly what I said.
You preferred same weapons on both sides, while ignoring the examples with mixed weaponry.

As to the examples' worth, I hadn't given my opinion just yet, but here it is now:
You ignored the examples with full information, information that you requested, in favor of an example of your own, which is lacking such vital details as tech levels, which incidentally makes it rather difficult for me to check the results. Why then, did you ask for information you weren't going to work with anyway?
Furthermore, both of your examples were hits that involve attack and defense strategies, while the ones we were asking about were clean hits, both sides at normal. This would make this example better suited for pointing out the effectiveness of strategies, rather than the influence of techs on unit losses during Assaults, which was the point you were (repeatedly) asked to clarify.

As such, the example leaves a little something to desire.

My previous example was to show that assaults didnt work the way that some TMI thought they were working. thats all. For exact calculation on how it works, you would have to read some of my older posts.

I didnt find the time to check the reports made by you or others before. But now I have the time. So which one do you want me to look at?
The way you calculated in your last 2 posts with reports seems correct. You also have to consider that in all missions you don't always deal exact same number of damage, but the damage you deal is somewhere between 90% and 105% of your action, thats why it's impossible to accurately calculate the tech of your enemy, but you can estimate it within a certain boundary.
Kenzu
Kenzu
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Post by navblue Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:01 pm

That someone is again in this alliance war Smile

I understand that there is a chance for either side to win a battle, but this is the type of stuff that will drive someone crazy. If the two sides are near equal or even within 50% of each other I can understand, but when two sides are at extreme sides of the spectrum like this its really ridiculous.

Props to XXXXXX I want some of the drugs he's giving his troops!

navblue's army was composed of:
1,768,191 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
144354 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
1621545 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
2292 Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank

XXXXXXX awaited the invaders with the following:
105,697 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
298 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
105399 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery

Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 80,151,229,799 damage on the enemy!
This results in 1,773 casualties amongst the defending troops!
The defending forces return fire and inflict 3,241,598,265 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 2,399 casualties in their enemies ranks!

navblue's forces Defeated the enemy!

As XXXXXXX's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
the way was clear for navblue's forces to engage their true target

With 76,909,631,534 power remaining, navblue's army charges forward engaging XXXXXXX's own offensive troops.
History will tell that 47,530 troops will have fallen to this force by the end of the battle.

671,322 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries were already awaiting their univited visitors.
322 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
552888 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
118112 Soldiers came unarmed

These forces return fire and inflict 24,549,376,320 damage to their opponents!
As a result of this 49,950 invaders have lost their lives!

I had two in a row like this and the third wasn't much better. How about those odds Sad

navblue
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Post by Keinutnai Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:08 pm

navblue wrote:That someone is again in this alliance war Smile

I understand that there is a chance for either side to win a battle, but this is the type of stuff that will drive someone crazy. If the two sides are near equal or even within 50% of each other I can understand, but when two sides are at extreme sides of the spectrum like this its really ridiculous.

Props to XXXXXX I want some of the drugs he's giving his troops!

navblue's army was composed of:
1,768,191 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
144354 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
1621545 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
2292 Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank

XXXXXXX awaited the invaders with the following:
105,697 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries
298 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
105399 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery

Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 80,151,229,799 damage on the enemy!
This results in 1,773 casualties amongst the defending troops!
The defending forces return fire and inflict 3,241,598,265 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 2,399 casualties in their enemies ranks!

navblue's forces Defeated the enemy!

As XXXXXXX's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
the way was clear for navblue's forces to engage their true target

With 76,909,631,534 power remaining, navblue's army charges forward engaging XXXXXXX's own offensive troops.
History will tell that 47,530 troops will have fallen to this force by the end of the battle.

671,322 Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries were already awaiting their univited visitors.
322 Soldiers were armed with MLRS
552888 Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
118112 Soldiers came unarmed

These forces return fire and inflict 24,549,376,320 damage to their opponents!
As a result of this 49,950 invaders have lost their lives!

I had two in a row like this and the third wasn't much better. How about those odds Sad

The drugs are called defense tech and personal bonus points in defense. It looks like your attack tech was inferior to defense tech. Of course if your attack tech was equal to enemy defense tech, then you still lose 25% more units than the enemy because of how assault missions are set up.
Keinutnai
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Alliance : World Republic
Number of posts : 663
Registration date : 2011-04-08

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Post by navblue Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:34 pm

Keinutnai wrote:
The drugs are called defense tech and personal bonus points in defense. It looks like your attack tech was inferior to defense tech. Of course if your attack tech was equal to enemy defense tech, then you still lose 25% more units than the enemy because of how assault missions are set up.

So you're saying defense tech plays more of a role in the outcome than raw power? Didn't you used to subscribe to the opposite theory? I have a pretty large attack total.

Edit: Just checked my attack tech is higher than his defense tech by 75 and I'm sure his personal bonus in defense tech isn't higher than my personal bonus in attack tech. So not only do i have an army that outnumbers his by an outstanding amount, my tech is higher. This is just beating a dead horse. We already know the mechanics are screwed.

navblue
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Post by Keinutnai Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:54 pm

you cannot use + and -
you have to use * and /

If you have 175% attack and he 100% defense then it's not the same like having 275% attack and 200% defense

in the first case its a difference of 75%, in the 2nd case it's a difference of 37.5%

So what is your attack tech and personal attack bonus? and what is his defense tech?
Keinutnai
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Post by navblue Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:32 pm

give me the formula you want to check this against and i'll run the numbers

navblue
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Post by Special Agent 47 Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:19 pm

For future reference I want to add this quote to this topic so others are not mislead by the false claims made here by Kenzu. He used both his ingame account, and his official forum admin account. As a player it is fine to make mistakes and base your theories on how things work, but as an official represenative of the administration it shows a unprofessional and uncaring will, even one of ego when one would rather think they know something as a fact rather just asking the other person in the room what the real facts are. Even tho he repeatedly says "the game does not work like that" Admin has now proven Kenzu was incorrect. The game does work like that. This is another showing of lack of truth and knowlege on behalf of Kenzu and further reason to always only accept information and explinations from only Admin Martin.


Spoiler:

Spoiler:
Special Agent 47
Special Agent 47
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ID : http://www.aderanwars.com/stats.php?id=427
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Number of posts : 556
Location : Preparing for my next mission.
Registration date : 2009-08-22

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Post by Kenzu Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:22 pm

Special Agent 47 wrote:For future reference I want to add this quote to this topic so others are not mislead by the false claims made here by Kenzu. He used both his ingame account, and his official forum admin account. As a player it is fine to make mistakes and base your theories on how things work, but as an official represenative of the administration it shows a unprofessional and uncaring will, even one of ego when one would rather think they know something as a fact rather just asking the other person in the room what the real facts are. Even tho he repeatedly says "the game does not work like that" Admin has now proven Kenzu was incorrect. The game does work like that. This is another showing of lack of truth and knowlege on behalf of Kenzu and further reason to always only accept information and explinations from only Admin Martin.


Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I seriously don't see any contradiction in any of these posts. And I still believe they are an accurate representation how assaulting works.
(And I also read admins explanation of how assaults work)
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