Spy Weapons

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Post by Kenzu on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:15 pm

Starting from Round 7 Spies will have to have Spy Weapons just like all other military units in order to have a covert action. Spies without weapons will have a covert action of 0.
Spy weapons will work similar like Commando weapons: They are not being destroyed when fighting.
Explosives will remain and Spies will use explosives to blow up enemy weapons. Spy weapons will not be able to be sabotaged.

Spy weapons will appear like automatic pistols on RA. They will have silencers and will cost same as automatic pistols: 200.000 kuwal per unit.
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Post by Nomad on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:22 pm

so it just a 1 time fee? Since the weapons are never destroyed? And you have to buy a weapon to spy or do any other covert actions?
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Post by Kenzu on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Nomad wrote:so it just a 1 time fee? Since the weapons are never destroyed? And you have to buy a weapon to spy or do any other covert actions?

Yes, you buy it once and it will not be destroyed. When Commandos assassinate, they also don't lose their weapons and can use them forever (unless they get sabotaged)
spies need spy weapons to have a covert action thus without any spy weapons they cannot spy on other players and also cannot sabotage.
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Post by Nomad on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:34 pm

ok 1 last question

why can assassins weapons be sabotaged and covert weapons can not?
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Post by Kenzu on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:51 pm

To put it simply: Allowing spies to sabotage spy weapons would overpower them. Spies should kill other spies with counterintelligence missions.

Because when one unit type attacks the same unit type it should not lead to a death rate of 2:1 if both players have the same technology level.

If spies sabotage other spies then unarmed spies could be killed by attacking spies at a rate of 2:1. This would be unfair, as it would make covert players overpowered if they can mass a player who has same tech at a 2:1 ratio by using only a single unit type.

This might be not that easy to explain but when a player has the same technology in one unit type as you, you can mass him efficiently by using a different unit. If someone has strong spies, you kill them efficiently with commandos or attackers, but you should not be able to to kill them efficiently with spies. When attacking a unit type with the same unit type and techs are equal, then the defenders should suffer only 10% penalty, not 50%. Is it clear?
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Post by Nomad on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:19 pm

somewhat yes. I get the 2 attacks with the same unit type theory.

So to kill assassins you sab the weapons then assassinate, still 2 attacks but by seperate unit classes meaning you can't put all your eggs in 1 basket.
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Post by Manleva on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:51 pm

I find the logic on this to be somewhat confusing.

To have covert action for spies you now need to arm them with a weapon that they will only use some of the time. you buy each weapon only once because you do not loose it.

All I can really see it that you are doing is nothing more than raising the cost of spies by 200,000 Kuwal
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Post by Nomad on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:01 pm

The game is not made to make sense or have any logic. Its based solely on balance and ratio's. Its designed to make sure you spend the same (roughly) resources no matter what avenue of specilization you pursue. Attempting to make everything cost roughly the same. Thats what I get from it anyway.
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Post by Kenzu on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:51 am

Manleva wrote:I find the logic on this to be somewhat confusing.

To have covert action for spies you now need to arm them with a weapon that they will only use some of the time. you buy each weapon only once because you do not loose it.

All I can really see it that you are doing is nothing more than raising the cost of spies by 200,000 Kuwal
This is exactly how it always worked for commandos. You also build weapons once and use it forever.

Is raising the cost for spies a bad thing? Currently the cost of an attacker, defender or commando is about 600,000 Kuwal (Since all need weapons, and weapons with power 200 (400,000 kuwal) are most common lategame)
Spies cost only 200,000 to train and without weapons they cost only 1/3 of the price of other units if they don't need any.

Letting them require weapons puts them on par with other military units.

Nomad wrote:The game is not made to make sense or have any logic. Its based solely on balance and ratio's. Its designed to make sure you spend the same (roughly) resources no matter what avenue of specilization you pursue. Attempting to make everything cost roughly the same. Thats what I get from it anyway.

The point of this game is that you do not neglect any unit type. To be successful you should find the right balance between balancing all unit types evenly and specializing at least one unit type to have a powerful offensive force (the offensive force could be attackers, spies or commandos). Work together with players that specialized in other unit types and you will be powerful.

If however you focus entirely on one unit type, and don't advance research in other areas, you will be destroyed as you will be always attacked in your weakest spots.

Nomad, I think it was you who was unhappy that spies don't have weapons when other units have. Why don't I seem you happy that spies will finally require weapons too?
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Post by Manleva on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:55 am

First off I'll admit that I have not played RA for some time so I may be out of date. My comments were not so much about the overall cost but were more about the fact that you were making spies useless without weapons.

As I am not one for using spies in an aggressive manner is seemed a little odd to me to have to arm a spy to be able to use him for what I consider to be his primary role which is the gathering of intelligence. In this role what I really want is for my spies to infiltrate your base and gather information. I want results that will provide me with the information I need to take other action and I don't want my spies to leave any bodies lying around the place to alert you to the fact that they have been there.

I have no concerns around having to arm a spy if they are to be used against other spies.

If cost is an overriding concern I have to wonder why you just don't increase the training cost so that you produce an armed spy.

I would also consider that if any unit dies then it should loose it's weapon as well. From your explanation it sounds like if you have 1000 armed spies and loose 100 in an attack you will end up with 900 spies and 1000 weapons thus meaning that your replacement spies that you train are in fact cheaper overall as you don't need to build weapons for them.
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Post by Kenzu on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:23 pm

Maybe it could be done that spies could be used for reckonaissance mission without weapons, but what then? Should it appear that they have covert action? If yes, they are going to die like flies if attacked by other spies that are armed. That's why I consider it the best to make them usefull with weapons from the beginning.

As it stands now, it is 3 times more expensive to increase your action with attack, defense or commandos than with spies. And that's not ok.

You are right about the replacement of weapons. I think it will be a good idea to make spies and commandos lose weapons when they attack each other. A problem is that what should happen when commandos attack soldiers and soldiers attack commandos? Should they lose weapons? It's more complicated as the price of weapons is often different from the weapons of commandos.
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Post by Nomad on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:48 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Manleva wrote:I find the logic on this to be somewhat confusing.

To have covert action for spies you now need to arm them with a weapon that they will only use some of the time. you buy each weapon only once because you do not loose it.

All I can really see it that you are doing is nothing more than raising the cost of spies by 200,000 Kuwal
This is exactly how it always worked for commandos. You also build weapons once and use it forever.
The above is an incomplete/incorrect statement by Kenzu. Commando weapons are built once and used forever "unless" sabotaged. Just stating this as that to me is a major difference, therefore means it is NOT "exactly" like commando weapons.

Is raising the cost for spies a bad thing? Currently the cost of an attacker, defender or commando is about 600,000 Kuwal (Since all need weapons, and weapons with power 200 (400,000 kuwal) are most common lategame)
Spies cost only 200,000 to train and without weapons they cost only 1/3 of the price of other units if they don't need any.

Letting them require weapons puts them on par with other military units.

Nomad wrote:The game is not made to make sense or have any logic. Its based solely on balance and ratio's. Its designed to make sure you spend the same (roughly) resources no matter what avenue of specilization you pursue. Attempting to make everything cost roughly the same. Thats what I get from it anyway.

The point of this game is that you do not neglect any unit type. To be successful you should find the right balance between balancing all unit types evenly and specializing at least one unit type to have a powerful offensive force (the offensive force could be attackers, spies or commandos). Work together with players that specialized in other unit types and you will be powerful.

If however you focus entirely on one unit type, and don't advance research in other areas, you will be destroyed as you will be always attacked in your weakest spots.
I do know and see that Kenzu, and applaud you for your attempt. What has confused me from the beginning, and even up to now is your presentation of the game as a whole. You promote it as a 5 min a day game where lone wolves stand a chance, yet in actuality based off game play the more time you spend ingame the better you will be, groups will always win out, and lone wolves can never stand a chance. In other words you promoted it as a slower laid back game, but designed and updated it to be more of a time commitment, and the only way to win is to work in groups of specialized accounts.

Nomad, I think it was you who was unhappy that spies don't have weapons when other units have. Why don't I seem you happy that spies will finally require weapons too?
Simple answer. Because spy's have an unfair advantage. All other weapons unit classes can lose their weapons. Spies can not. Example (Massed means all units killed and all weapons destroyed by whatever means necessary)
1,000 strikers with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 defenders with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 assassins with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 spies with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 1,000 weapons

You can't tell me that's balance. Over time the more battles you are in the more the balance is off. I do think if Assassins have to have weapons spies should have to have weapons as well, I just think what can be done to one should be done to the other.

I have figured out what makes sense and is logical can not work in a game. I no longer try to bring up points such as these because of it. Its a game, and has to have rules. You have a goal to reach and must do so as an Admin. If creating a rule that is illogical by view yet functional by game play then so be it.
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Post by Kenzu on Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Nomad wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
Manleva wrote:I find the logic on this to be somewhat confusing.

To have covert action for spies you now need to arm them with a weapon that they will only use some of the time. you buy each weapon only once because you do not loose it.

All I can really see it that you are doing is nothing more than raising the cost of spies by 200,000 Kuwal
This is exactly how it always worked for commandos. You also build weapons once and use it forever.
The above is an incomplete/incorrect statement by Kenzu. Commando weapons are built once and used forever "unless" sabotaged. Just stating this as that to me is a major difference, therefore means it is NOT "exactly" like commando weapons.
I was talking about commando weapons as they are now. Right now they cannot be sabotaged and they are bought only once.

Is raising the cost for spies a bad thing? Currently the cost of an attacker, defender or commando is about 600,000 Kuwal (Since all need weapons, and weapons with power 200 (400,000 kuwal) are most common lategame)
Spies cost only 200,000 to train and without weapons they cost only 1/3 of the price of other units if they don't need any.

Letting them require weapons puts them on par with other military units.

Nomad wrote:The game is not made to make sense or have any logic. Its based solely on balance and ratio's. Its designed to make sure you spend the same (roughly) resources no matter what avenue of specilization you pursue. Attempting to make everything cost roughly the same. Thats what I get from it anyway.

The point of this game is that you do not neglect any unit type. To be successful you should find the right balance between balancing all unit types evenly and specializing at least one unit type to have a powerful offensive force (the offensive force could be attackers, spies or commandos). Work together with players that specialized in other unit types and you will be powerful.

If however you focus entirely on one unit type, and don't advance research in other areas, you will be destroyed as you will be always attacked in your weakest spots.
I do know and see that Kenzu, and applaud you for your attempt. What has confused me from the beginning, and even up to now is your presentation of the game as a whole. You promote it as a 5 min a day game where lone wolves stand a chance, yet in actuality based off game play the more time you spend ingame the better you will be, groups will always win out, and lone wolves can never stand a chance. In other words you promoted it as a slower laid back game, but designed and updated it to be more of a time commitment, and the only way to win is to work in groups of specialized accounts.

Nomad, I think it was you who was unhappy that spies don't have weapons when other units have. Why don't I seem you happy that spies will finally require weapons too?
Simple answer. Because spy's have an unfair advantage. All other weapons unit classes can lose their weapons. Spies can not. Example (Massed means all units killed and all weapons destroyed by whatever means necessary)
1,000 strikers with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 defenders with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 assassins with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 spies with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 1,000 weapons

You can't tell me that's balance. Over time the more battles you are in the more the balance is off. I do think if Assassins have to have weapons spies should have to have weapons as well, I just think what can be done to one should be done to the other.

So what do you suggest? Commandos sabotaging?

Also how is what you say relevant? Sure Spies dont need to rebuild weapons, but the attackers also dont lose weapons killing spies, so both parties have smaller losses. Furthermore, Spies can only kill spies and other weapons, they themselves are unable to kill other unit types. Commandos for example can kill spies but spies cannot kill Commandos!


I have figured out what makes sense and is logical can not work in a game. I no longer try to bring up points such as these because of it. Its a game, and has to have rules. You have a goal to reach and must do so as an Admin. If creating a rule that is illogical by view yet functional by game play then so be it.
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Post by Nomad on Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:04 pm

I dont suggest anything, I'm just pointing out things I feel are wrong and silly. You ignore or rail against any suggestion I make just because its me,,, even if later on you make the same or similiar changes later with your own tweeks.

If you cant see a problem with the above example then so be it. I know I can.

Only suggestion I can offer would require such a massive change I know it would never happen. Its why I don't suggest anything for your game anymore.


I dont get your logic, you dont get mine, so me offering you suggestions is not productive. Like I said before and will say again, its your game, so do your best with it mate.
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Post by Kenzu on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:24 am

Actually that's not true, and you know it. I do not go against any suggestion based on what person has made them, but based on whether I believe it is a good suggestion or not.

And if you make a suggestion it is not less likely to be implemented than if someone else suggested it, and you said it yourself: "even if later on you make the same or similiar changes later with your own tweeks."

I am pretty sure it was your suggestion to give spies weapons. I believe here were a more things you suggested that got implemented as well.

Almost all changes on RA have been suggested by someone.
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Post by Nomad on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:15 pm

Ok then let me ask you this, and this is shooting from the hip.

If your so intent on the system, why not simply make spies and assassins just like strike and def? Requiring the same weapons levels, same training, same tech's. Scrape the entire spy ad assassin system as it is, and make it identical to strike and defense systems now, except for appropriately changing the names and such to reflect the group it is tied to? Would this not make strike, defense, covert, and assassins all Equal? Is that not basically what you are wanting?

Then you can use any group to attack any group. You can literally have spies attacking defense.

Since spies can blow up weapons, you give them a -20 or -25 to battling def and offense, equal to assassins.

Since assassins can assassinate, give them a - 20 to -25 to battling def and offense, equal to spies.

Strike ,,,,I do not know if they should have a - or not,,,, strike does have an offensive and a defensive maode?(can attack and can be attacked by spies and assassins)

Defense,,, I think they should take no negatives, these guys should be ready for anything.

At any rate, that would make the kewul cost equal in all areas if they had similar weapons and tech levels, and the same requirements.


I'd make another unrelated suggestion. well 2 maybe.
1. The way the game is working out, I think the 3 month round may be to short. You might consider changing it to 4 months or 6 months. (this could depend on evolutions if its ever re-released. so the 2 don't reset at the same time)
2. tweek the glory system. The spread for ranks seems a bit to high. Possibly let it run for XXX amount of time before the gory starts.(I know there is a short time before glory starts, like 48 hrs or something? I mean a bit longer like a week or a month if you lengthen the round)
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Post by Alex on Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:26 pm

That big wall of text unchanged:
Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
Manleva wrote:I find the logic on this to be somewhat confusing.

To have covert action for spies you now need to arm them with a weapon that they will only use some of the time. you buy each weapon only once because you do not loose it.

All I can really see it that you are doing is nothing more than raising the cost of spies by 200,000 Kuwal
This is exactly how it always worked for commandos. You also build weapons once and use it forever.
The above is an incomplete/incorrect statement by Kenzu. Commando weapons are built once and used forever "unless" sabotaged. Just stating this as that to me is a major difference, therefore means it is NOT "exactly" like commando weapons.
I was talking about commando weapons as they are now. Right now they cannot be sabotaged and they are bought only once.

Is raising the cost for spies a bad thing? Currently the cost of an attacker, defender or commando is about 600,000 Kuwal (Since all need weapons, and weapons with power 200 (400,000 kuwal) are most common lategame)
Spies cost only 200,000 to train and without weapons they cost only 1/3 of the price of other units if they don't need any.

Letting them require weapons puts them on par with other military units.

Nomad wrote:The game is not made to make sense or have any logic. Its based solely on balance and ratio's. Its designed to make sure you spend the same (roughly) resources no matter what avenue of specilization you pursue. Attempting to make everything cost roughly the same. Thats what I get from it anyway.

The point of this game is that you do not neglect any unit type. To be successful you should find the right balance between balancing all unit types evenly and specializing at least one unit type to have a powerful offensive force (the offensive force could be attackers, spies or commandos). Work together with players that specialized in other unit types and you will be powerful.

If however you focus entirely on one unit type, and don't advance research in other areas, you will be destroyed as you will be always attacked in your weakest spots.
I do know and see that Kenzu, and applaud you for your attempt. What has confused me from the beginning, and even up to now is your presentation of the game as a whole. You promote it as a 5 min a day game where lone wolves stand a chance, yet in actuality based off game play the more time you spend ingame the better you will be, groups will always win out, and lone wolves can never stand a chance. In other words you promoted it as a slower laid back game, but designed and updated it to be more of a time commitment, and the only way to win is to work in groups of specialized accounts.

Nomad, I think it was you who was unhappy that spies don't have weapons when other units have. Why don't I seem you happy that spies will finally require weapons too?
Simple answer. Because spy's have an unfair advantage. All other weapons unit classes can lose their weapons. Spies can not. Example (Massed means all units killed and all weapons destroyed by whatever means necessary)
1,000 strikers with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 defenders with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 assassins with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 5,000 weapons
1,000 spies with 1000 weapons,, massed to nothing 4 times and rebuilt = total cost 5,000 UU , training cost, 1,000 weapons

You can't tell me that's balance. Over time the more battles you are in the more the balance is off. I do think if Assassins have to have weapons spies should have to have weapons as well, I just think what can be done to one should be done to the other.

So what do you suggest? Commandos sabotaging?

Also how is what you say relevant? Sure Spies dont need to rebuild weapons, but the attackers also dont lose weapons killing spies, so both parties have smaller losses. Furthermore, Spies can only kill spies and other weapons, they themselves are unable to kill other unit types. Commandos for example can kill spies but spies cannot kill Commandos!


I have figured out what makes sense and is logical can not work in a game. I no longer try to bring up points such as these because of it. Its a game, and has to have rules. You have a goal to reach and must do so as an Admin. If creating a rule that is illogical by view yet functional by game play then so be it.

OK so in that big passage is this sentance from kenzu (At least I think its from kenzu, if I am wrong I am sorry to you):
I was talking about commando weapons as they are now. Right now they cannot be sabotaged and they are bought only once.

This needs correcting as it is blatantly wrong.

Under covert mission there is this option:

Sabotage Commando Weapons
1 Covert Turns / 10 Supply Turns needed

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Spy Weapons Empty Re: Spy Weapons

Post by Kenzu on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:40 am

Nomad wrote:Ok then let me ask you this, and this is shooting from the hip.

If your so intent on the system, why not simply make spies and assassins just like strike and def? Requiring the same weapons levels, same training, same tech's. Scrape the entire spy ad assassin system as it is, and make it identical to strike and defense systems now, except for appropriately changing the names and such to reflect the group it is tied to? Would this not make strike, defense, covert, and assassins all Equal? Is that not basically what you are wanting?

Then you can use any group to attack any group. You can literally have spies attacking defense.

Since spies can blow up weapons, you give them a -20 or -25 to battling def and offense, equal to assassins.

Since assassins can assassinate, give them a - 20 to -25 to battling def and offense, equal to spies.

Strike ,,,,I do not know if they should have a - or not,,,, strike does have an offensive and a defensive maode?(can attack and can be attacked by spies and assassins)

Defense,,, I think they should take no negatives, these guys should be ready for anything.

At any rate, that would make the kewul cost equal in all areas if they had similar weapons and tech levels, and the same requirements.


I'd make another unrelated suggestion. well 2 maybe.
1. The way the game is working out, I think the 3 month round may be to short. You might consider changing it to 4 months or 6 months. (this could depend on evolutions if its ever re-released. so the 2 don't reset at the same time)
2. tweek the glory system. The spread for ranks seems a bit to high. Possibly let it run for XXX amount of time before the gory starts.(I know there is a short time before glory starts, like 48 hrs or something? I mean a bit longer like a week or a month if you lengthen the round)

I want all categories to be equally expensive, not same.

"Since assassins can assassinate, give them a - 20 to -25 to battling def and offense, equal to spies."
Why should assassins be less effective at killing attackers or defenders when that's what they have been trained for? You can attack those guys already now, and what happens when you do is that defenders and attackers suffer 10% penalty. If however attackers attack assassins, then assassins suffer 10% penalty.

Defense,,, I think they should take no negatives, these guys should be ready for anything.
This sounds reasonable. I seriously consider this one. Because currently Defenders are at a disadvantage when attacked by assassins, but on the other hand, you defend against assassins with your own assassins.

I think the round is long enough as it is. Three months seems perfect for me. 4 months doesn't seem much longer and 6 months feels too long. If A player starts playing at a random time, he might have to wait many months until he can start again from scratch.

Spread for ranks is high because some players focus on economy, while others focus on rank (that's economy, military and war experience). The reason why glory points start later is so that players who log in for the first time in 5th turn are not far behind with glory points. Preferably all players should start playing within the first day and within 4 hours make the necessary precautions to collect as much glory as they want.
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Post by Nomad on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm

Kenzu wrote:

I want all categories to be equally expensive, not same.
Ok, I accept that, but they are not equally expensive. The more someone wars the more the balance is thrown off by weapons not being destroyed. I don't want to argue the point, just expressing my view on indestructible weapons for a single class of units and no other.



I think the round is long enough as it is. Three months seems perfect for me. 4 months doesn't seem much longer and 6 months feels too long. If A player starts playing at a random time, he might have to wait many months until he can start again from scratch.
Cool. Your choice, all I can do is make suggestions, and that suggestion is based on what I see and convo's with others playing. You have good and valid points for not changing.

Spread for ranks is high because some players focus on economy, while others focus on rank (that's economy, military and war experience). The reason why glory points start later is so that players who log in for the first time in 5th turn are not far behind with glory points. Preferably all players should start playing within the first day and within 4 hours make the necessary precautions to collect as much glory as they want.
Again, you have access to more info then I so you can make a better call. I just find it odd that a player can hold rank 1 for a large portion of a round and then drop to a low rank like 1,000, and in the end beat out an account that held rank 2 for the entire round. Again you have access to more and better info, so its just a suggestion of a tweek.

Not going to comment on the units as you seemed to have completely missed the point of the suggestion. Strike VS defense, Assassins VS spies, yet all can cross attack other units. Your trying to keep old style attack system with the new suggestion. Its not worth discussing further anyway as its to massive a change and not thought out well enough to work.
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Post by Kenzu on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:06 pm

Nomad wrote:
Kenzu wrote:

I want all categories to be equally expensive, not same.
Ok, I accept that, but they are not equally expensive. The more someone wars the more the balance is thrown off by weapons not being destroyed. I don't want to argue the point, just expressing my view on indestructible weapons for a single class of units and no other.

Please explain this! How is the balance thrown off? Lets assume we have attackers fighting assassins and assassins fighting attackers. No weapons are destroyed. So how is the balance thrown off? In a battle either both sides lose weapons or no side loses weapons. (Except sabotage where one side loses weapons and the other explosives)
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Post by Nomad on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:07 pm

Lets stop assuming.

Lets look at ALL examples. you have 4 classes of units. You have 4 classes of weapons.

you have 4 classes of units and all can be killed. You have 4 classes of weapons but only 3 can be destroyed.

So mathimaticly, figure the cost difference between the following 2 accounts

Account A
Has 1,000 of the four units for a total of 4,000 trained military personal
Has 1,000 of the four weapon types for the four units for a total of 4,000 weapons

Account B
Has 1,000 of the four units for a total of 4,000 trained military personal
Has 1,000 of the four weapon types for the four units for a total of 4,000 weapons

Let us say the 2 accounts are basically equal in all areas, such as techs, levels, income, etc

Account A has 10 battles. Each battle reduces him to 0 trained units and 0 weapons that can be destroyed (leaves the 1,000 weapons that can not be destroyed)

Account B has 20 battles. Each battle reduces him to 0 trained units and 0 weapons that can be destroyed (leaves the 1,000 weapons that can not be destroyed)

You see no difference in cost?*account A used those 1,00 indestructable weapons 10 times each, while account B used the same weapons 20 times each. All other classes got to use theirs 1 time and then had to replace them with new weapons/more investment. I am having difficulty finding the words to convey my point. 3 units have to rebuild there weapons, 1 unit does not. Every time a battle rages on the account who does not have to bebuild weapons gains a little more of an advantage. The 3 unit classes that have to rebuild weapons are at a loss to the 1 unit class who only has to train men.


I can't find a way to explain it, but again, its irrelevant. You have stated its not a path you want to pursue and thats perfectly fine. Its just a personal gripe of mine when anything is indestructable. It may be mathimaticly sound but its sounds foolish in reality/game play.


Last edited by Nomad on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added the though starting with *)
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Post by Kenzu on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:22 pm

But you do realize that if all techs are the same then all players will lose the same amount of kuwal in each battle?

Accounts A and B would be destroyed after the same amount of battles if attacked by a same account.

There are no weapons which will be used only once. On average weapons which get destroyed by using them are destroyed after being used about 10 times. (because about 10% of units die in each battle taking 10% of all weapons that were used).

If spies attack other spies, no weapons are lost, this means that both players can rebuild from this battle easier. and if attackers attack any other unit, also no weapons are lost, so it's also easier to rebuild for both sides than if attackers attacked attackers or defenders, because in the last two cases weapons are destroyed too, and both sides have to rebuild more.
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Post by Nomad on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:26 am

Yes?
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Post by Kenzu on Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:59 am

Since players with the same techs lose the same amount in each battle, why does it matter if a type of weapon can be destroyed and another cannot?
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Post by Nomad on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:08 pm

if you build something and get to use it once, and its cost is 10 then each use cost you 10. If it cost 10 but you get to use it twice then the cost per use is 5. If the cost is 10 and you use it 10 times the cost per use is 1.

3 weapon classes have a 1 time use (YES I understand every weapon is not destroyed every battle, but I have stated this example is being done with the account being 0 in all four stats). But 1 weapon class every "use" the cost per use decreases the overall investment.

Kenzu I am not saying there is a right and a wrong here. Not arguing against your idea/system. Just stating I feel industructable weapons are,,,,,,,,,,,,,,IDK what the proper word would be here,,,,,,, unimagative? unoriginal? foolish if you will, but thats not meant as an insult or attack.

Its your system, roll with it.

*Edit*
Unrealistic, thats a better word. It does not change gameplay per say, but it effects the smoothness and feel of the game, nothing more.
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