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Airforce Techs require a better explanation

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Airforce Techs require a better explanation Empty Airforce Techs require a better explanation

Post by Manleva Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:08 am

Now that there are more options available I think it is time that the Tech were better explained.

I have spent time investing in the techs while building the Airforce and one thing that I have noticed is that there appears to be a tech level between each generation that from what I have seen does nothing other than waste Kuwal. ie it has no affect on either the power of the Aircraft or munitions.

I think that it is time that we had a full listing of the proposed techs, their costs and a full explanation of their effects
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Airforce Techs require a better explanation Empty Re: Airforce Techs require a better explanation

Post by Nomad Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:52 am

I agree.
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Airforce Techs require a better explanation Empty Re: Airforce Techs require a better explanation

Post by Kenzu Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:37 pm

There are 3 types of techs for each unit.

One tech type (type1) increases unit generation.
One tech type (type2) increases weapon generation.
and one tech type (type3) unlocks new techs (type1 and type2) to the next generation of weapons and units.

Basically the type 3 tech does not improve neither weapons nor units, but that's how it works. It is also the last tech at the same price like previous techs (the next tech has considerably higher price).
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Post by kingkongfan1 Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:46 pm

Kenzu wrote:There are 3 types of techs for each unit.

One tech type (type1) increases unit generation.
define "unit" please, (are you refering to "sams", "fighters", "Helicopters", "bombers" as units? I ask because I thought they were called "weapons"...
One tech type (type2) increases weapon generation.
define "weapon" please, (are you refering to the "munitions" for the items listed above? I am just trying to understand this is all...)
and one tech type (type3) unlocks new techs (type1 and type2) to the next generation of weapons and units.
sorry, I do not understand this at all

Basically the type 3 tech does not improve neither weapons nor units, but that's how it works. It is also the last tech at the same price like previous techs (the next tech has considerably higher price).

Let me re-ask the question this way; I just spent 1,250,000,000,000 kewal upgrading my fighters from gen2 to gen3... I will lay out the payments & then you can explain each...

1) I paid 250,000,000,000... (nothing happened... {this is what I want explained please})
2) I paid 500,000,000,000... (I got fighter gen3 with this payment)
3) I paid 500,000,000,000... (I got fighter gen3 "munition" with this payment)

If I am reading the above correct; the payment that apparently does nothing is actually "unlocking" the next generation for purchase. if this is correct then I have to ask the following questions...

1) why do you feel that is necessary?
2) none of the other techs have this so why do it here?
3) do you plan to implement this on the other techs when this update hits main?
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Airforce Techs require a better explanation Empty Re: Airforce Techs require a better explanation

Post by Manleva Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:05 pm

Kenzu wrote:There are 3 types of techs for each unit.

One tech type (type1) increases unit generation.
One tech type (type2) increases weapon generation.
and one tech type (type3) unlocks new techs (type1 and type2) to the next generation of weapons and units.

Basically the type 3 tech does not improve neither weapons nor units, but that's how it works. It is also the last tech at the same price like previous techs (the next tech has considerably higher price).

Well if that's the case then it was badly implemented and should say "unlock next level" rather than giving the impression that you are in fact researching something that does nothing. I actually see no valid reason for this as it is not a feature found anywhere else in AW. All it does is that rather than placing the cost on the next level is to disguise the fact that the Airforce update is going to be very expensive.

At this time all that I can see is that it is only something that will be of any benefit to the existing big players with the big incomes or the big traders and does nothing for the smaller or new players except leave the exposed to attacks that they cannot defend against and in times of conflict a section of an oponents forces that cannot be targeted.
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Post by Nomad Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:14 pm

I never have understood what the reason for wasting kewal on something useless was for personally. I am losing understanding on most all of the AF update since much of it is useless, such as a useless level, some new useless techs that will negate your bonuses, and ultimately the fact once everyone is maxed out everything is an exact XXX kewal for the exact same amount of kewal. I just can not understand the concept of trading 100 kewal for 100 kewal. But hey thats just me.
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Post by Kenzu Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:16 pm

Manleva wrote:
Kenzu wrote:There are 3 types of techs for each unit.

One tech type (type1) increases unit generation.
One tech type (type2) increases weapon generation.
and one tech type (type3) unlocks new techs (type1 and type2) to the next generation of weapons and units.

Basically the type 3 tech does not improve neither weapons nor units, but that's how it works. It is also the last tech at the same price like previous techs (the next tech has considerably higher price).

Well if that's the case then it was badly implemented and should say "unlock next level" rather than giving the impression that you are in fact researching something that does nothing. I actually see no valid reason for this as it is not a feature found anywhere else in AW. All it does is that rather than placing the cost on the next level is to disguise the fact that the Airforce update is going to be very expensive.

At this time all that I can see is that it is only something that will be of any benefit to the existing big players with the big incomes or the big traders and does nothing for the smaller or new players except leave the exposed to attacks that they cannot defend against and in times of conflict a section of an oponents forces that cannot be targeted.

All that a player needs to spend on research to be able to defend is two times 50 billion. That's not that bad. 100 billion can be obtained by using 500-1000 attack turns. Not a big deal.
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Post by Nomad Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:01 pm

You seem to have completely missed the fact there is a useless level on EVERY generation and on Every weapon. What does 2 times 50 to be able to defend got to do with this conversation at all?
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Post by kingkongfan1 Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:21 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Manleva wrote:
Kenzu wrote:There are 3 types of techs for each unit.

One tech type (type1) increases unit generation.
One tech type (type2) increases weapon generation.
and one tech type (type3) unlocks new techs (type1 and type2) to the next generation of weapons and units.

Basically the type 3 tech does not improve neither weapons nor units, but that's how it works. It is also the last tech at the same price like previous techs (the next tech has considerably higher price).

Well if that's the case then it was badly implemented and should say "unlock next level" rather than giving the impression that you are in fact researching something that does nothing. I actually see no valid reason for this as it is not a feature found anywhere else in AW. All it does is that rather than placing the cost on the next level is to disguise the fact that the Airforce update is going to be very expensive.

At this time all that I can see is that it is only something that will be of any benefit to the existing big players with the big incomes or the big traders and does nothing for the smaller or new players except leave the exposed to attacks that they cannot defend against and in times of conflict a section of an oponents forces that cannot be targeted.

All that a player needs to spend on research to be able to defend is two times 50 billion. That's not that bad. 100 billion can be obtained by using 500-1000 attack turns. Not a big deal.

Thank you for completely Ignoring my post...

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Post by Kenzu Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:53 am

Nomad wrote:You seem to have completely missed the fact there is a useless level on EVERY generation and on Every weapon. What does 2 times 50 to be able to defend got to do with this conversation at all?

It is an answer to the following sentence marked in red:

Kenzu wrote:
Manleva wrote:
Kenzu wrote:...

Well if that's the case then it was badly implemented and should say "unlock next level" rather than giving the impression that you are in fact researching something that does nothing. I actually see no valid reason for this as it is not a feature found anywhere else in AW. All it does is that rather than placing the cost on the next level is to disguise the fact that the Airforce update is going to be very expensive.

At this time all that I can see is that it is only something that will be of any benefit to the existing big players with the big incomes or the big traders and does nothing for the smaller or new players except leave the exposed to attacks that they cannot defend against and in times of conflict a section of an oponents forces that cannot be targeted.

All that a player needs to spend on research to be able to defend is two times 50 billion. That's not that bad. 100 billion can be obtained by using 500-1000 attack turns. Not a big deal.

Additional explanation: Manleva argues that the tech that doesnt improve your units or weapons causes players that they cannot defend themselves and they cannot target a section of opponents forces, while I made the point that with 100 billion kuwal (for SAMs) you can already target all attacking airforces, and can defend yourself. Additionally this particular tech comes only after you researched generation 1 of weapons and units, so you can use these units before even researching this tech.
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Post by Manleva Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:01 am

Kenzu wrote:
Nomad wrote:You seem to have completely missed the fact there is a useless level on EVERY generation and on Every weapon. What does 2 times 50 to be able to defend got to do with this conversation at all?

It is an answer to the following sentence marked in red:

Kenzu wrote:
Manleva wrote:
Kenzu wrote:...

Well if that's the case then it was badly implemented and should say "unlock next level" rather than giving the impression that you are in fact researching something that does nothing. I actually see no valid reason for this as it is not a feature found anywhere else in AW. All it does is that rather than placing the cost on the next level is to disguise the fact that the Airforce update is going to be very expensive.

At this time all that I can see is that it is only something that will be of any benefit to the existing big players with the big incomes or the big traders and does nothing for the smaller or new players except leave the exposed to attacks that they cannot defend against and in times of conflict a section of an oponents forces that cannot be targeted.

All that a player needs to spend on research to be able to defend is two times 50 billion. That's not that bad. 100 billion can be obtained by using 500-1000 attack turns. Not a big deal.

Additional explanation: Manleva argues that the tech that doesnt improve your units or weapons causes players that they cannot defend themselves and they cannot target a section of opponents forces, while I made the point that with 100 billion kuwal (for SAMs) you can already target all attacking airforces, and can defend yourself. Additionally this particular tech comes only after you researched generation 1 of weapons and units, so you can use these units before even researching this tech.

@ Kenzu - While you are factually correct your point is only fully relevant if you only take the airforce component of the game in isolation. Smaller and new players cannot do this as they also need to invest in all of the other components of the game when building their account.

I still see no point in changing what was in place already by introducing what has the appearance of an improvement in a weapon when in fact it is not, instead it is a charge to unlock the next level of the tech. This will be very confusing because it conflicts with the existing mechanics that are already in place. When a player is presented with text that appears to mean they are investing in an improvement then it is reasonable to expect to see that improvement. If it was not actually an improvement the it should have said so.

From my perspective there are three options available
1. Reword it so that players know that they are investing to unlock the next generation.
2. Actually make it an improvement that will actually be reflected by increasing the power of what the text would lead the player to expext.
3. Remove it totally and simply move the cost to the next generation.
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Post by Kenzu Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:12 pm

Number 1 and Number 2 sounds the best to me.
Any suggestions what it can improve?
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Post by Manleva Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:06 pm

Kenzu wrote:Number 1 and Number 2 sounds the best to me.
Any suggestions what it can improve?

That's a very good question and not so easy to answer because of the way that it has been set up.

Admin has brought in a different process with the Airforce implementation. As I player I do not like having to spend income for no benefit. The only other place in the game where we are required to invest income to unlock something is in the construction area and there is a logical reason for it there. There is no other research area where we need to invest in research simply to be able to research something else and also to immediately also loose the ability to build all previously researched items.

As for suggestions on what it can improve the answer is very simple, you improve what it says you are researching. So far everything that I have see indicated by these unlocking steps are realistically nothing more than an improvement to one component of the item being researched not the whole item. i.e. from memory there was a step that researched Chaff for Bombers. this is not actually a major change to the Bomber as a whole but it should make it's defense better. I would therefore say that there should be an increase in power of the item concerned when the research has been completed of say around 25% of the next generations power.

Ideally from a personal point of view I would prefer to see the research of the Aircraft and the munitions totally separated so that they are researched seperatly. The only limitation I would impose is that you cannot use Munitions that are of a greater level than the Aircraft you have researched. e.g. While you could research and build any generation of SAM Munition the maximum generation that could be utilized can only equal the maximum Generation of the SAM's you have built.

I also think that we should be able to build any generation that we have researched and not be locked into only the current generation.
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Post by Nomad Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:29 pm

Manleva wrote:
Kenzu wrote:Number 1 and Number 2 sounds the best to me.
Any suggestions what it can improve?

That's a very good question and not so easy to answer because of the way that it has been set up.

Admin has brought in a different process with the Airforce implementation. As I player I do not like having to spend income for no benefit. The only other place in the game where we are required to invest income to unlock something is in the construction area and there is a logical reason for it there. There is no other research area where we need to invest in research simply to be able to research something else and also to immediately also loose the ability to build all previously researched items.

As for suggestions on what it can improve the answer is very simple, you improve what it says you are researching. So far everything that I have see indicated by these unlocking steps are realistically nothing more than an improvement to one component of the item being researched not the whole item. i.e. from memory there was a step that researched Chaff for Bombers. this is not actually a major change to the Bomber as a whole but it should make it's defense better. I would therefore say that there should be an increase in power of the item concerned when the research has been completed of say around 25% of the next generations power.

Ideally from a personal point of view I would prefer to see the research of the Aircraft and the munitions totally separated so that they are researched seperatly. The only limitation I would impose is that you cannot use Munitions that are of a greater level than the Aircraft you have researched. e.g. While you could research and build any generation of SAM Munition the maximum generation that could be utilized can only equal the maximum Generation of the SAM's you have built.

I also think that we should be able to build any generation that we have researched and not be locked into only the current generation.

I definitely agree with the last statements. I keep getting uneven numbers of lower generation weapons and munitions of equal levels and because I am now a higher generation I can not get the 10 to 1 ratio for maximum power and it is truely frustrating.

As for a suggestion for a "use" for the "useless" level upgrade,,,,,, you have one that increases the "strength" why not use it to adjust the defensive side or something? I think it should just be removed to be honest.
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