VIS has joined World Republic (after kos massed redblulu and TM refused to pay)

Vis never was a warring alliance Only few of them partook in skirmishes, Sara and red among them. Besides - you don't just go massing a TM member Pala - that ain't healthy for your account, no matter the reason

especially me >.< that will put you in my black book of death . haha

lol KoS

First let me welcome Keinutnai to the forums as I have not seen anyone else do that.

Kenzu, It is good to see you making the distinction between your role as a player and an Admin.

As to the rest of the thread I will make only one comment. Some of the posters have been making assumptions and this is never a good thing to do.

i love the half answers. if we are assuming, go ahead. give us exact criticisms on what we are wrong about

Manleva wrote:First let me welcome Keinutnai to the forums as I have not seen anyone else do that.

Kenzu, It is good to see you making the distinction between your role as a player and an Admin.

As to the rest of the thread I will make only one comment. Some of the posters have been making assumptions and this is never a good thing to do.

Well as far i am concerned this is ludicris it should not be needed.

Sadly a few people cant get the 2 apart is their problem.

donttazeme wrote:i love the half answers. if we are assuming, go ahead. give us exact criticisms on what we are wrong about

Taze there has been no half answeres.

Anyway get me on MSN.

I wanna talk to you Both as TM Diplomat and Command member, but also as your former Commander and as a friend which i still count my self and you. And If you like what we talk about can be posted here.

No secrets as i am against that always has been. But I still want your side of the story without the interruptions we have here as well as you said your self half answeres.

the only half answers i speak of, is manleva's.

he went to BOTH forum threads. sayign we are makign assumptions, and then ended h is post. he has NOT addressed anything directly

curumo wrote:Vis never was a warring alliance Only few of them partook in skirmishes, Sara and red among them. Besides - you don't just go massing a TM member Pala - that ain't healthy for your account, no matter the reason

Well thats a good point.

well here is a fact:

by seaborgium on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:26 am

TM Declares War on TOC

TM have, after discussion, reached the decision that we must take action against TOC as a matter of principle. TOC has decided that no alliance is responsible for the actions of its members. This is in opposition to one of the fundamental principles of The Marauders and as such cannot go unchallenged.

The lines have been drawn and the time to stand and be counted has arrived. The time of double standards has ended and the time of death and destruction has arrived.
Honor demands that TOC's stance be challenged.


TM will be targeting WR and VIS as the original issues were between Mujengan and TIE
It is the actions of WR and VIS, not Muj, that have brought TM into this war.

We are also joining due to a breach of our policy. It clearly states:

Do not contact The Marauders' member as that contact will not matter when dealing with these issues.
Contact ONLY the following members for issues: SEABORGIUM, SA47, NIMRAS.
Contact is posting on these forums, our forums, ingame. If ingame is used then you must send to all 3.


Kenzu did just that, you spoke to one of my guys, and it gets better. It was 10 days after the fact. I again quote our policy:

Reporting an incident is 3 days, else won't be considered


Kenzu we have issues with the way that you keep falling on trying to keep peace; yet when someone defends themselves, you bring all of TOC into the fight. Had this fight started different where TIE was the aggressor and just started the war, then TM wouldn't be joining, we would have left it as they broke policy

I would like to give u this recollection, as i think u are not getting anywhere with this.
Sea sais he "pushed" KOS to pay the bill formassing redblu. is that a freindly advice, or an ORDER? cause i see that a fundamental principle for wich u claim u faught for is being thrown/forrgotten.
if u wish to keep ur fundamental principle u have the chance to order KOS to pay for his actions. if he doesnt follow orders, then by all means kick him out of The Marauders because he follows his on principles and his own law wich it becomes clear that you do not make for him, sea.

I too saw the mountain of UU on redblulu, but i accepted hi was bannered by WR and as a respect i restrained myself from takeing out the 10b defence.
and i hope i show that respect always and always compensate for my mystakes.

@Ian► Smog is not searching for war and is not in favour of it. we are not prepareing for anything. As i recall I withdrew Muj from the spirit of TOC a while back. my talks on the forum are just for clearing facts in contradictory părinciples and NOT acts of war. it is my job to keep smog informed of this forum as he uses it just when it is cristmas or easter. U are well aware of the same principle u asked Mujengan to pay for the wrong deeds of r0bert. we faught a war over it. TM interviened just for that principle they said and at the end of the day still mujengan was the only one standing for the contrare of it as I made the declaration only two days later after smog ordered so.

And again,
@sea► please say for what principle u abused ur position of power in the last war? The way i see it IN THIS MOMENT all the principle u need is kenzu at the top of ur guns and the others are pretexts.

This post is not ment to be a personal accusation, but the observation that either u lost your ways or u cant control the situation. I know u are a wise man, because u are an excellent diplomat, wicked too
Is Kos more of an asset to u that ur fundamental principles are?
Wake up from this nonsense.. u are putting urself in the position u accused kenzu to be. as u said he had double standards and kept the better ones for himself.

As I see it and many others in TM. Yes what KoS did was wrong. Yes I told him to pay. Which I showed you and also sent a screenshot.
The difference that WE see is that KoS didn't delete his account. Its still here and is still being played. There is 2 options in our policy. Repay or be massed. KoS chose not to repay, so he selected the 2nd option, which was to be massed.

The last war we fought in was Rob3rt hit someone in TIE(stars I think) and then deleted. Which makes that the allinace job to repay the losses.

Had KoS quit TM after not repaying, we would have helped VIS mass him, as that would help recover the cost for them.

So far this is the only order in which he hasn't followed.
Oh one other thing... Redblulu didn't fly the WR flag he flew the VIS flag.
That is why it was there responsibility to respond to what was going on.
If an allinace can't stand up and defend itself then they will fall as that is the point in this game.

There is another player that has a mountain of UU on their account, but is flying the WR banner. Yet noone has worked that def down at all.

As for the 2nd part to me, I am not 100% what your trying to say for this
"please say for what principle u abused ur position of power in the last war? The way i see it IN THIS MOMENT all the principle u need is kenzu at the top of ur guns and the others are pretexts."

I know its nothing personal, its a game, once its personal then its time to leave. Lost ways or can't control... We haven't lost anything. Control, tbh its the internet, is there really control? Yes I could boot KoS but would that really help anything?
As for the diplomat, thank you.

ghyogod wrote:well here is a fact:

by seaborgium on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:26 am

TM Declares War on TOC

TM have, after discussion, reached the decision that we must take action against TOC as a matter of principle. TOC has decided that no alliance is responsible for the actions of its members. This is in opposition to one of the fundamental principles of The Marauders and as such cannot go unchallenged.

The lines have been drawn and the time to stand and be counted has arrived. The time of double standards has ended and the time of death and destruction has arrived.
Honor demands that TOC's stance be challenged.


TM will be targeting WR and VIS as the original issues were between Mujengan and TIE
It is the actions of WR and VIS, not Muj, that have brought TM into this war.

We are also joining due to a breach of our policy. It clearly states:

Do not contact The Marauders' member as that contact will not matter when dealing with these issues.
Contact ONLY the following members for issues: SEABORGIUM, SA47, NIMRAS.
Contact is posting on these forums, our forums, ingame. If ingame is used then you must send to all 3.


Kenzu did just that, you spoke to one of my guys, and it gets better. It was 10 days after the fact. I again quote our policy:

Reporting an incident is 3 days, else won't be considered


Kenzu we have issues with the way that you keep falling on trying to keep peace; yet when someone defends themselves, you bring all of TOC into the fight. Had this fight started different where TIE was the aggressor and just started the war, then TM wouldn't be joining, we would have left it as they broke policy

I would like to give u this recollection, as i think u are not getting anywhere with this.
Sea sais he "pushed" KOS to pay the bill formassing redblu. is that a freindly advice, or an ORDER? cause i see that a fundamental principle for wich u claim u faught for is being thrown/forrgotten.
if u wish to keep ur fundamental principle u have the chance to order KOS to pay for his actions. if he doesnt follow orders, then by all means kick him out of The Marauders because he follows his on principles and his own law wich it becomes clear that you do not make for him, sea.

I too saw the mountain of UU on redblulu, but i accepted hi was bannered by WR and as a respect i restrained myself from takeing out the 10b defence.
and i hope i show that respect always and always compensate for my mystakes.

@Ian► Smog is not searching for war and is not in favour of it. we are not prepareing for anything. As i recall I withdrew Muj from the spirit of TOC a while back. my talks on the forum are just for clearing facts in contradictory părinciples and NOT acts of war. it is my job to keep smog informed of this forum as he uses it just when it is cristmas or easter. U are well aware of the same principle u asked Mujengan to pay for the wrong deeds of r0bert. we faught a war over it. TM interviened just for that principle they said and at the end of the day still mujengan was the only one standing for the contrare of it as I made the declaration only two days later after smog ordered so.

And again,
@sea► please say for what principle u abused ur position of power in the last war? The way i see it IN THIS MOMENT all the principle u need is kenzu at the top of ur guns and the others are pretexts.

This post is not ment to be a personal accusation, but the observation that either u lost your ways or u cant control the situation. I know u are a wise man, because u are an excellent diplomat, wicked too
Is Kos more of an asset to u that ur fundamental principles are?
Wake up from this nonsense.. u are putting urself in the position u accused kenzu to be. as u said he had double standards and kept the better ones for himself.

I agree with ghyogod.

Seaborgium, you said you had principles, and one of them was that players pay for hostile attacks. Kos didn't pay, so order him to pay. And if he doesn't listen to you and your policies, then why keep him? Why don't you simply boot him and let him get massed for massing others.

What is more important for you?
Having kingofshinobis as your member and let him go against what The Marauders stand for? Or making sure that the principles of Marauders are upheld and people seeing that you keep to your word?
Sure kos can be very helpful in wars, but is he worth you having to brake your promises and harming the image of all of The Marauders because of it?

Show us that The Marauders don't have double standards!

seaborgium wrote:As I see it and many others in TM. Yes what KoS did was wrong. Yes I told him to pay. Which I showed you and also sent a screenshot.
The difference that WE see is that KoS didn't delete his account. Its still here and is still being played. There is 2 options in our policy. Repay or be massed. KoS chose not to repay, so he selected the 2nd option, which was to be massed.

The last war we fought in was Rob3rt hit someone in TIE(stars I think) and then deleted. Which makes that the allinace job to repay the losses.

Had KoS quit TM after not repaying, we would have helped VIS mass him, as that would help recover the cost for them.

So far this is the only order in which he hasn't followed.
Oh one other thing... Redblulu didn't fly the WR flag he flew the VIS flag.
That is why it was there responsibility to respond to what was going on.
If an allinace can't stand up and defend itself then they will fall as that is the point in this game.

There is another player that has a mountain of UU on their account, but is flying the WR banner. Yet noone has worked that def down at all.

As for the 2nd part to me, I am not 100% what your trying to say for this
"please say for what principle u abused ur position of power in the last war? The way i see it IN THIS MOMENT all the principle u need is kenzu at the top of ur guns and the others are pretexts."

I know its nothing personal, its a game, once its personal then its time to leave. Lost ways or can't control... We haven't lost anything. Control, tbh its the internet, is there really control? Yes I could boot KoS but would that really help anything?
As for the diplomat, thank you.

Is that only my impression or you are trying to convince me that it's ok to mass other players if they are not powerful enough to fight back, and that you are against the willingness of World Republic to protect other members? Also, do I have to remind you that alliances that have MDP, protect each other and it is clear to everyone that hostile attacks are not allowed under any circumstances.

Also:
What if some players are in an alliance which is much smaller and without allies? Does it mean that if kingofshinobis wants, you will let him rape the small alliances without punishment?
If you don't mass him yourself for going against your principles, you could have at least booted him and make a public speech denouncing what he has done. But what are you doing?
You are protecting him!

Furthermore having many uu is no excuse for a mass raid. Don't you remember how long time ago Mujengan wanted that mass raids to be permitted and accepted by all alliances, but TIE went against it?
As far as I know, you were against it too.
Do you suddently approve of mass raids?

Is it ok, if WR will mass raid your members without notice? (You know, one of your members could raid a million untrained, and through a coincidence, some WR member could spy him at that time, see the untrained, make a couple sabs and collect it before the other one trains them) Are you ok with that?

You are not ok with it.
Neither are we.

Just out of curiosity...how long was it before the attack Redblublu (or whatever) had last logged in to train his UU?

As the more I read, the more I m getting the impression that players are crying over a inactive getting massed to get at his UU, and then WR/VIS wanting to use that massing of the inactive as a opportunity to cripple/damage one of TM's leading accounts.. one which forms a pivotal role in TM's offensive capabilities.

Cripple KOS, you go a long way in crippling TM's high-tech strike-capacities....

So, when was the last time Redblublu logged on to train his UU before getting hit by KOS?

Sara was talking with redblulu on a daily basis since the mass has happened. I talked to him a couple times too, he was logging in each day.

Assuming that redblulu was inactive simply because he had untrained is wrong. kos could have asked him if he is inactive with a simple pm if he wanted.

Keinutnai wrote:
Seaborgium, you said you had principles, and one of them was that players pay for hostile attacks. Kos didn't pay, so order him to pay. And if he doesn't listen to you and your policies, then why keep him? Why don't you simply boot him and let him get massed for massing others.

Yes our policy says that pay for actions. It also says or be massed. KoS didn't pay, so it means he is to be massed. So I am sure that means he is still with in our policy. IF YOU REALLLLLY want to get into what the policy says

Hostile actions
- Is considered an act of war
- Is not a hit for kuwal or UU or Spying
- If a kuwal hit or raid is done after a Hostile action, then the kuwal/uu has to be repaid

First Offense - repay 200% of losses
Second Offense - Massing, there is no repayment option

If you look he massed him twice in 1 day, well you can't now that the logs are gone.

Keinutnai wrote:
What is more important for you?
Having kingofshinobis as your member and let him go against what The Marauders stand for? Or making sure that the principles of Marauders are upheld and people seeing that you keep to your word?
Sure kos can be very helpful in wars, but is he worth you having to brake your promises and harming the image of all of The Marauders because of it?

Show us that The Marauders don't have double standards!

So yes many of us in TM think what he did was wrong. However he hasn't tried to skirt out of his punishment. He hasn't quit or went on vac mode. He has still played and still plays.
Our word has been kept. Everything we have done/said are within our policy.
The Marauder image is what we make of it.

Keinutnai wrote:
Is that only my impression or you are trying to convince me that it's ok to mass other players if they are not powerful enough to fight back, and that you are against the willingness of World Republic to protect other members? Also, do I have to remind you that alliances that have MDP, protect each other and it is clear to everyone that hostile attacks are not allowed under any circumstances.

TBH yes if you can't protect ya self then you need to work on that or get with someone who can.
If you chose to use the MDP then just like every action you have to consider the consequences.

Keinutnai wrote:
Furthermore having many uu is no excuse for a mass raid. Don't you remember how long time ago Mujengan wanted that mass raids to be permitted and accepted by all alliances, but TIE went against it?
As far as I know, you were against it too.
Do you suddently approve of mass raids?

I never disapproved of mass n raids. You will find that I only pointed things out in that thread started so long ago.

Keinutnai wrote:
Is it ok, if WR will mass raid your members without notice? (You know, one of your members could raid a million untrained, and through a coincidence, some WR member could spy him at that time, see the untrained, make a couple sabs and collect it before the other one trains them) Are you ok with that?

You are not ok with it.
Neither are we.

No we wouldn't. We would have made contact. If it wasn't resolved we would have massed the crap out of that player with in the 3 day time period for. Not wait over 20 days to bring it up.

So with that, the 3 day time period is up for the hits. The matter is closed.

Ian he had a 27k UP
He had over 1.5m UU in the open.

Shot and easy.

As a TM member i agree with Kenzu and ghyogod.

KoS should have been kicked or forced to pay as thats what we told everyone else we would do.

We fought against ToC for esactly what KoS did.

But that said i seem to be the only one thinking that,

I HATE KENZU!!! I WIN THIS WAR!!! WHEE!!! Will I get banned for speaking against the 'LAME' Moderator? lalala

Well as most know I am away, and have handed over my role as 2IC. That said everything I am about to say is as a player of the game, a member of TM, and refects my own personal opinions ONLY.

Glad to see Kenny finally seperating his ingame forum account and his admin forum account. It was needed and long overdue. Now he can be put on the foe list so those who do not wish to see what is preceived as babbling nonsense can remove it from their view. He was abusing the fact as admin he could not have the "foe" feature used on him.


I seem to have fought the last war for a much different reason then others who have posted here. You see I did not fight over Rob3rts attacks on Stars. To me that was not an issue as it was between TIE and Munjengan to work out. I fought that war because TIE and Mujengan had a legitamate conflict between them. Both sides felt they were in the right. I'm not here to say either was in the right or in the wrong. I know how I would react in the situation, but I was not in the situation therefore have no opinion.

I fought that war for 2 reasons.
1. TIE and Munjengan had a legitamate beef between their alliances that should have been resolved by blows if diplomacy failed. WR and VIS had NO business or authority involving themselves in the conflict in my opinion. I feel that way for 2 reasons. The first is a Munjengan struck the first blow. Secondly 3 alliances on 1 and the sheer volume of players was nothing more then a misuse of an empires power.
2. Munjengan attempted to force a policy change not by their own hand, but by the hand of the empire they were in. This policy change was in my opinion unfair and unjust. I am under the assumption that TIE also felt it was, and that WR and VIS also feel it was as they no longer back or uphold the policy change.

These are the reason I fought in that war, and were the reasons I stated why I backed entering the war. It had absolutely nothing to do with Stars or Robert, and would have never been given a second thought had it stayed Munjengan vs TIE over a legitamate dispute between 2 alliances.


As for the KoS/redblulu incident I find myself wondering what principles it is so many of you claim we no longer follow. Again this is just me talking as a player expressing his own views but to me we follwed and continue to follow the exact same principles we always have.

It has always been my understanding that you always had 2 choices. It was always my understanding that the alliance rules or guidelines were put in place so EVERYONE, both inside and outside the alliance knew EXACTLY how we as an alliance would react to 99% of all situations steming from farming, raiding, and hostile actions. As an outsider you knew wheather you were dealing with 1 person or the alliance by the guidelines. As a TM member you knew if you would be backed by the alliance or left to clean up your own messes. All the rules and guidelines told you that you had two choices, to follow the rules for face the punishment. I do not see where we have diviated from that in the least.

Lets go ahead and get the rest of the story about KoS and Red out there for more to see and consider. KoS was WRONG for committing "hostile" acts against Red. For that TM as an alliance left him to lie in the bed he made. Other than that KoS profitably raided him. He also left the account with a defense and did not do then extensive amount of damage to the account until after Redblulu made 2 MASSIVE mistakes. 1. Upon logging in, he did not go on protection. He did not retrain, rearm, nor rebuild. He did not protect his account in any way shape or form. He did not attempt diplomacy nor military reaction. He did nothing. It was not until the last few hours of the 3 days to report that anything was even heard by TM from his alliance. 2. And this was a BIGG mistake, He sent a very unpleasent message to KoS. If I remember correctly it was 12 or 13 words long, and around 7 of them started with "F". That message got his account messed up more and apparently got him banned as well by Admin. So I think those few additional facts are relevant to the case. Not to mention Sara wanted the "repayment" sent to her and not Redblulu. That made no sense what so ever. Since then Redblulu has become completely and totally inactive.

Now for those not familiar with the ins and outs of TM and how we are run I'll give you a small insight. We run TM. We as an alliance and not Sea alone, Not Sea and myself. Not the HC. Yes many TM members want war for various reasons. From boredom, for some excitement, some dislike for certain people, from past issues left unresolved, and maybe just for the heck of it and the interaction between players. I personally feel the TM VS Munjengan war is the highlight of this game to me. Yes there was forum "talk" of this and that, But yes when talk got serious some decisions were made. Those decisions were made very clear. Redblulu had the right to go after KoS for what he did. VIS had the right to go after KoS for what he did. Both would have been left in peace by TM should they have gone after KoS. It was even stated that if KoS went after VIS in a pre-emptive strike that would mean he started a war with the alliance as a whole, and that due to the def pact with WR that would give WR grounds to join in the war. Since KoS did not attack VoS, then WR has no claim to anything.

VIS was 22 members strong. If 22 members and Sara herself, who is much larger then KoS, could not muster up the massing of 1 single account then that is their weakness to carry. VIS disbanded and gave up all right to the conflict against KoS. WR waits 20 plus days to attempt to intervien and that also is unacceptable. If you think you have the right to go after KoS then that means I have the right to mass you as well Kenzu for your past transgressions and that is rediculous.

To directly answer your question Kenzu

1.Is that only my impression or you are trying to convince me that 2.it's ok to mass other players if they are not powerful enough to fight back, and 3.that you are against the willingness of World Republic to protect other members? Also, do 4.I have to remind you that alliances that have MDP, protect each other and 5.it is clear to everyone that hostile attacks are not allowed under any circumstances.

1.Your right, that is your impression, you been wrong before as well.
2. So Sara being bigger then KoS and having 22 accounts total against 1 is "not powerful enough to fight back"?. I do not know if you really feel KoS is that powerful and you fear him that much, or if you feel your wife and her alliance are that patheticly weak that 22 accounts against 1 are "unfair" odds. (unfair for the 22)
3. Where do you get this Idea? I fully expect you to protect your members. Red was not your member. I can only hope if KoS was to do this to one of yours, you would actually have the backbone to mass him, instead of disband in fear or what ever reason provolked VIS to do so.
4. If it takes 2 or 3 alliances, or 100 or more accounts to mass one,,,,,, why do we even bother to play this game?
5.Incase you missed it, this is the internet and every man has free will. I can not stop you from pressing a button on your own PC any more then you can stop me. All we can do is react to what other do or have done. If "NO" hostile actions are "allowed" then again why do we even play this game? People can start fight and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. KoS started a fight and we left him to finish it. We are not protecting KoS. He was left to Red, he was left to VIS, but for what reason should someone who has no business in the matter be allowed to bring in 60, 80, or 100 accounts against 1? Sheer madness.

Also:
1.What if some players are in an alliance which is much smaller and without allies? Does it mean that if kingofshinobis wants, you will let him rape the small alliances without punishment?

2.If you don't mass him yourself for going against your principles,
3.you could have at least booted him and make a public speech denouncing what he has done. But what are you doing?
You are protecting him!

1.No. VIS had 22 to 1 odds. VIS had members larger then KoS. VIS had means and the ability to deal with KoS. They chose not to. WR has no dog in this race.
2. Will you mass yourself for all your past actions and transgressions? Why in the world do you play a game wanting NO conflict? No War? If no one makes a mistake, if no one crasses any lines, then this is just a big ole stat building game of "Sims". Believe it or not, this is a "WAR" game. People are suppose to cross lines. People are suppose to get smacked for it. Don't blame us because Sara and VIS with its bigger accounts, more military might, and superior numbers could not muster enough fight in all of them to mass 1 account unhinered.
3. I do not see a reason to boot him. He took a chance, made a gamble, and he won. If Sara and VIS had acted he would have lost dearly. They chose not to. TM and its members have denounced what he did. We are protecting him against those who have no issue with him. Namely WR.

Again, this is my personal veiws and not necissarily the views of my alliance. Now to finally enjoy the features granted by the "foe" option. I never have to see the babblings of a ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, (I can not pick a single word to describe)

Whoa wait a minute - KoS mass raided blue? Lol ... then I guess I will change my PoV. I do NOT think what KoS did was wrong. Chide me, chastise me, I don't care. Having 1.5 m out (unless ofc you have a 20 B + defense (which I know red didn't have) and having KoS' strike capabilities (I won't name numbers but it's THE biggest in game by a nice margin (and coming from someone who specializes in strike that is something)) it becomes fairly cheap to mass a 15 b or so defense. If you loose 300 k supers (which I doubt KoS did) it will only have amounted for about 390 b kuwal. And let's face it - 1.5 m is worth over 425 b. In my opinion Red should have trained the uu ... 27 k up and 1.5 m untrained? 55 DAYS of not training ... anyone else see something wrong with this picture?

*edit* This is also just my opinion - not as TIE's 2ic, but as an active warrior. Nice post SA, btw.