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Post by Kenzu on Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:49 pm

There will be a page accessible through the index page called "Hall of Fame"
it will not only display the top 30 players of each round of Red Apocalypse, but also give other details, such as alliance, race, a button to show a players medals, population, unit production, war experience and total power.

It isn't yet sure if the hall of fame will be released before this round ends. It is possible that the stats will be recorded, however a public display in a hall of fame will come at a later date.
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Post by Manleva on Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:23 pm

Frankly as RA is supposed to be turning into a non reset game I see no point in this.

If you are looking to see both a reset and non reset version of RA then there are two things to consider.

1. The current mechanics of RA where there in no ability to untrain and retrain units mean that it will be impossible to get a lot of the medals in a reset round as it will be no where long enough.

2. You will also have to get an additional version past your brother and that may not be possible unless it can fund it's self so that additional licensing and capacity can be attained from the hosting site.
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Post by Kenzu on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:52 pm

I personally am no fan of reset games and I prefer non reset ones, because I don't lose what I have worked hard for. However when I see my achievements from previous rounds somewhere, I will feel better since it isn't lost, it is remembered. I am sure more people feel that way.

I think the best thing will be to have RA as 2 games: one reset, one non-reset.

RA should be released as non-reset once it will have all features that are planned for it, including airforce, a map with capturable territories and translated into German and Chinese completely, preferably into even more languages, hopefully with mobile phone optimisation and facebook integration. At the current development speed I believe the non reset RA game will not be released before 2012. This leaves us with many rounds in the meantime.

1) The iron medal will be expanded and in the future given to anyone who is among top 10, which makes it easier to get at least iron in a medal category. It's practically impossible for anyone to have all medals. So many medal categories exist so that it will be easier for players to gain medals at least in some categories.

2) Which additional version? RA is already a different version from main. Our host can support multiple games at no additional cost.
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Post by Nomad on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:10 am

Funny, Admin says something totally different. Maybe you two should talk.



A hall of fame for a reset is fine, a hall of fame for the second round of testing on a non reset is stupid, shows vanity, and the need for attention. Heck, why not give a hall of fame for the first round? A non resetable, with a hall of fame that will never change or be added to, truely a pathetic idea at the very least.
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Post by Manleva on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:36 am

Kenzu wrote:I personally am no fan of reset games and I prefer non reset ones, because I don't lose what I have worked hard for. However when I see my achievements from previous rounds somewhere, I will feel better since it isn't lost, it is remembered. I am sure more people feel that way.

I can agree with some of this. I prefer Reset games personally as they provide more variety and you can set different goals for yourself from round to round. One factor that many don't appear to realize with reset games is that while you start from scratch each round you also know that you will have the opportunity next round to rectify mistakes you have made.

Seeing your personal achievements from previous rounds of a reset game is something very different to a Hall of Fame from my viewpoint. A Hall of Fame should relate to the achievements of all players not the individual. i.e. which player attained the highest power. which player had the most war experienced, who was the highest ranked player in each race etc. These then provide challenges for other players in subsequent rounds.


I think the best thing will be to have RA as 2 games: one reset, one non-reset.

Personally I don't think that RA in it's current format is suitable for a reset game. A reset game really needs to have a target to clearly define who has won each round (whether this is an individual or an alliance). This target or goal very much defines what mechanics and balances need to be put in place so that there is realistic competition. RA has some very good ideas but it has far to much of an economic basis to be a effective reset game.

RA should be released as non-reset once it will have all features that are planned for it, including airforce, a map with capturable territories and translated into German and Chinese completely, preferably into even more languages, hopefully with mobile phone optimisation and facebook integration. At the current development speed I believe the non reset RA game will not be released before 2012. This leaves us with many rounds in the meantime.

All I can say is don't attempt to try and do everything first. IF RA is geared for minimal activity them things like mobile phone optimization and facebook integration are nice to have enhancements but not necessary and could be developed later on. Just my thoughts but I have seen far to many different projects fail because to many things are included. It's better to decide on the actual goal and deliver it in reasonable timeframe than to keep pushing it out because additional features keep getting added

1) The iron medal will be expanded and in the future given to anyone who is among top 10, which makes it easier to get at least iron in a medal category. It's practically impossible for anyone to have all medals. So many medal categories exist so that it will be easier for players to gain medals at least in some categories.

2) Which additional version? RA is already a different version from main. Our host can support multiple games at no additional cost.

hmm, Talk to Martin because on Chat recently he said that the host only allows him 3 games although he does push this from time to time.
The current three games would then be 1. Main, 2. RA, 3. Reset/Evolutions (his comments on pushing this limit related to a Test server)
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Post by Nomad on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:47 am

Manleva wrote:hmm, Talk to Martin because on Chat recently he said that the host only allows him 3 games although he does push this from time to time.
The current three games would then be 1. Main, 2. RA, 3. Reset/Evolutions (his comments on pushing this limit related to a Test server)
[/quote]


Yes, it often seems odd how twp brothers who see each other can have 2 total different views on what can and can not be done.
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Post by Kenzu on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:03 am

You can achieve anything you believe in!
(considering you have the required cash)


He said that the current host allows 3 subdomains. I am sure this will not be a problem. I can think of a 2 possibilities immediately:
1) get access to more subdomains
2) find a new host who allows more subdomains
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Post by kingkongfan1 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:45 pm

Kenzu wrote:I personally am no fan of reset games and I prefer non reset ones, because I don't lose what I have worked hard for. However when I see my achievements from previous rounds somewhere, I will feel better since it isn't lost, it is remembered. I am sure more people feel that way.

I think the best thing will be to have RA as 2 games: one reset, one non-reset.

RA should be released as non-reset once it will have all features that are planned for it, including airforce, a map with capturable territories and translated into German and Chinese completely, preferably into even more languages, hopefully with mobile phone optimisation and facebook integration. At the current development speed I believe the non reset RA game will not be released before 2012. This leaves us with many rounds in the meantime.

1) The iron medal will be expanded and in the future given to anyone who is among top 10, which makes it easier to get at least iron in a medal category. It's practically impossible for anyone to have all medals. So many medal categories exist so that it will be easier for players to gain medals at least in some categories.

2) Which additional version? RA is already a different version from main. Our host can support multiple games at no additional cost.

IMO, a reset game, resets everything, no stats carried over from one round to another, no hall of fame, nothing, if everything isn't 0'd out then it it not a true reset game, & not worth playing...
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Post by Manleva on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:55 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote: IMO, a reset game, resets everything, no stats carried over from one round to another, no hall of fame, nothing, if everything isn't 0'd out then it it not a true reset game, & not worth playing...

You are right Kingkongfan1, in a reset game everything needs to be zeroed and nothing carried over.

I will add that I have nothing against a list of achievements for individual players being maintained so long as it is simply just a list of past achievements only. I am also used to a Hall of Fame where things like the top 30 players and Alliances from previous rounds are noted. These are achievements that are displayed for all to see and as such provide some recognition for the players listed but also show new players both what is achievable and that there is some form of recognition and as such offers some incentive to keep playing. I.e. Can I get on the list of the top 30 players, Can I become No. 1
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Post by Nomad on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:33 pm

The Q system is prolly the best ever created. If anyone wanted specifics I can try to get them, but the basic is this.

Every round the top Xnumber of players in certain catagories are recorded. Things like strike, def, covert, anti, But also UP, total size and WE.

Now since there are not even 30 active players in AW2 it would be stupid to list 30 players, so I would say X% of actively playing players with an upper cap of 30 to 50.

But each round in itself gives you a score, giving points for everything recorded. This means if you always do really well on rounds you play you can skip rounds and still keep a overall high record.

This was a division of 2 things

1 hall of records, where EVERY account is accounted for, but only the top XX are shown for each graded area.

2 hall of fame, where the top ten overall players are displayed, this is done by adding the lifelong scores together, then listd totals from most to least.


thats the jest of it.
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Post by kingkongfan1 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:41 pm

Manleva wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote: IMO, a reset game, resets everything, no stats carried over from one round to another, no hall of fame, nothing, if everything isn't 0'd out then it it not a true reset game, & not worth playing...

You are right Kingkongfan1, in a reset game everything needs to be zeroed and nothing carried over.

I will add that I have nothing against a list of achievements for individual players being maintained so long as it is simply just a list of past achievements only. I am also used to a Hall of Fame where things like the top 30 players and Alliances from previous rounds are noted. These are achievements that are displayed for all to see and as such provide some recognition for the players listed but also show new players both what is achievable and that there is some form of recognition and as such offers some incentive to keep playing. I.e. Can I get on the list of the top 30 players, Can I become No. 1

I understand what you are saying, but one thing that everyone must understand, as a player I prefer to keep my achievements/accomplishments to myself, as far as I am concerned it is my business & my business alone, If I choose to show someone what I have done then I will show them, but I do NOT want them put on public display period, If this "hall of fame" were optional then I would not have a problem with it as I would opt- out & keep my business private, but as it has been presented, I find it very insulting, & frankly it pisses me off...
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Post by seaborgium on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:04 am

Hall of Fame doesn't show till the end right?

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Post by kingkongfan1 on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:42 am

seaborgium wrote:Hall of Fame doesn't show till the end right?

are you asking if it will show at the end of the round? that is a good question. cause as I take it from what has been said that it will be put up towards the end of this round, & will stay up thru future rounds for players to look at, I would assume that it will update at the end of each consecutive round, & it still doesn't change my opinion no matter when it goes up or how long it stays up, my acct is my business alone regardless, (exceptions are when there are issues that Admin has to get involved with)...
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Post by Manleva on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:14 am

seaborgium wrote:Hall of Fame doesn't show till the end right?

No, A Hall of Fame is always viewable.

However it is historic and only shows results fro previous rounds. Nothing from the current round in progress is shown.
Hall of Fame is only updated at the end of the round.

Nomad has the right idea but I am not sure that I would go as far as he does. I think I would take all the stats and add them together to get a Total Power figure.

What you would see then is something like this

Place Player Power
1 Player A xxxxxxxxxxxx
2 Player C xxxxxxxxxxxx
3 Player G xxxxxxxxxxxx
4 Player A xxxxxxxxxxxx
etc.

The same could be done for Alliances.

The hall of fame would only display the Top 30 but as can be seen in the example above a player can appear more than once.
This way the amount of data carried over stays static.

I would also like to see the game frozen at the end of the round and limited access for players to be available before the reset is done.
This would give players the chance to access their own stats so they can record them if they want to. Eg. The base page and Military Experience page and Achievements page for the individual player. The alliance page and Alliance military experience page. The Player Ranking pages and the Alliance Ranking page.

This gives everyone a chance to see how well they did and pass around congratulations etc.

@Kingkongfan1 - I understand where you are coming from but the reality is that others will already have some idea of where you stand anyway.
By limiting what is displayed to total power information concerning your account build is kept private. Additionally if your not in the top 30 you won't make the Hall of fame anyway, But if it is really such sticking point then I am sure Admin would code in an opt out feature if enough players felt as you do.

@Nomad - I don't agree with scoring each round individually and keeping a leader board as you suggested. Each round needs to stand on it's own feet so to speak. I am not interested in seeing a statistic that is built off more than the accomplishments of multiple rounds especially when you factor in that no two rounds are going to be the same.

I have also thought of another couple of displays that may be applicable. The first would display the top 5 players for each round
e.g.
Round Rank 1 Rank 2 Rank 3 Rank 4 Rank 5
Round 1 Bill Bob Tom Fred Charlie
Round 2 Charile Bill Paul Dave Alan
etc.

the second could be a ranking by Race for each round.

@ Kenzu - If you are considering implementing this for the current version of RA then the current version should stay as the reset version and not become non resettable simply because this sort of Hall of Fame is not applicable to a non reset game.

Coding it in to a game which in time becomes non resettable simply means that if it is left in place new players will never get on it and will consider it an negative feature. Removing it as well as creating work for the coder can also upset existing players.

Considering the mechanics of the current version of RA don't really fit with what players expect from a reset game I would leave it out. It is however a great idea for Evolutions and a resettable version of RA should one be coded.
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Post by Kenzu on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:34 am

There are some good ideas being presented here.

I think it wont be a bad idea to show also for example top 10 in various areas (in addition to the global rankings). For example top 10 in:

Population
Income
UP
Total Power
War Experience
Units Killed
Strike action
Defense action
Covert action
Assassin action
Airforce action
Air Defense action

@Manleva, obviously no Hall of Fame is necessary for non-reset games.

I think you are giving opposite views if there should be a Hall of Fame or not. Given that there will always be a reset server, how would you judge now?

What do players expect from a reset game?
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Post by Nomad on Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:36 am

for it to reset.

each round to be independant.

The game to be continual.

Shifts and changes be it large or small per round.


@ Manleva and Kenzu, Q has 2 seperate systems in place, Thats what I'm trying to explain to you. A "hall of records" is the records of each round individually. This is what you express manleva. Each round stands on its own.

The "hall of fame" would be the top 10 over all previous rounds. Because if you allow records of each round in and of itself, it will not be long till the players as for a ranking system covering them all, thats why it was done that way in Q.


Martin should be well versed in how it worked I think, maybe he can explain it better.
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Post by kingkongfan1 on Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:52 am

Manleva wrote:
@Kingkongfan1 - I understand where you are coming from but the reality is that others will already have some idea of where you stand anyway.
By limiting what is displayed to total power information concerning your account build is kept private. Additionally if your not in the top 30 you won't make the Hall of fame anyway, But if it is really such sticking point then I am sure Admin would code in an opt out feature if enough players felt as you do.

not to be argumentative, cause any player with the appropriate covert abilities can spy op my account & have a look at certain information... but other than admin, name someone who knows what awards I have gotten? that is for the most part private info that I have shared with but a few, & I guarantee that only 1 might remember what I told him, name me a player outside the alliance that knows my techs, or my skill level training in covert, or assassin? or my training/weapon facilities that I have built, or even what construction yard level I have built. this info cannot be spy op'd & if I wanted it broadcast to the whole playerbase, I would post it myself... & BTW if someone outside the alliance knows some o the info I just spoke of, then we have a leak in the alliance,
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Post by Admin on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:01 am

Nomad wrote:
The "hall of fame" would be the top 10 over all previous rounds. Because if you allow records of each round in and of itself, it will not be long till the players as for a ranking system covering them all, thats why it was done that way in Q.


Martin should be well versed in how it worked I think, maybe he can explain it better.
I have a basic understanding of how q works/worked, but I cannot say I know very fine details.

on the other hand, I would recommend against a historical ranking system covering all rounds at one page (maybe except a very rudimentary like counting how often someone was rank 1-30 in different categories) since due to various updates it might happen that one round the top army would be 300k, and another it would be 30 mil. Same story with other stats.
This would make comparison of those stats over several rounds basically pointless.

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Post by Manleva on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:03 am

@ Kingkongfan1 - no you are not being argumentative. my view is that an ingame Hall of Fame for individual players would only show the players total power that they had attained at the end of the round. None of the component parts would be displayed. Awards that you may have received don't even enter into the subject.

@ Kenzu - While there are many things that would be nice to see if all of the items you listed were to be viewable ingame then you are asking for a lot of pages.

My idea of a Hall of Fame that shows the top 30 players and alliances should fit on just one page as I am only talking of 2 tables that are 3 columns wide and 31 rows deep.

I do also note Kingkongfans1 concern regarding privacy so I will offer this alternative.

In the Lords of Legend forums we maintained a separate thread that contained much of the information that you are suggesting. It also noted other general info regarding each round. Additionally individual players could have achievements included if they wished to. This was things like the most soldiers/spies/assassins killed in a single attack etc. These claims required that the player provide a screenshot from within the game that supported their claim and included the ingame date and time.

Compilation and checking of claims was carried out by a group of respected forum members and when completed after each round the information was forwarded to one of the forum admins who then updated the actual thread.

Putting more detailed information in the forum means that there is far less coding required within the game. It also allows for more interesting information to be added about each round, this can be notable things about wars etc and can also highlight changes that have been made to the game. Also because individual players are submitting a lot of the information players like Kingkongfan1 don't need to opt out at all because individuals opt in by making a submission
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Post by Kenzu on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:51 am

I think the best way in this case will be to do it this way:
People can select in account settings if their achievements will be visible once the round is over.

If they chose no, then no one can see their achievements.

Also, some people might not want others to know how much they donated to the game. The way out of this would be to show automatcially an iron order of support no matter if someone donated/received 10$ or 100$. Those didn't donate at all, or didnt get SS, they would obviously not have such order.

My question is, why would you want to hide what medals you have received, if it will be visible for everyone who were the top 10 in strike, defense, covert, assassin.

People who got the medals, will be in the top 10 anyway.
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Post by Nomad on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:50 pm

@ Kenzu, why is it vivible to other players? please explain how another player can see my awards now?

Why do you think top medalers will be top ranked? Unless they are all stat builders? Why can a top medaler not be a warrior as well?

I have a basic understanding of how q works/worked, but I cannot say I know very fine details.

on the other hand, I would recommend against a historical ranking system covering all rounds at one page (maybe except a very rudimentary like counting how often someone was rank 1-30 in different categories) since due to various updates it might happen that one round the top army would be 300k, and another it would be 30 mil. Same story with other stats.
This would make comparison of those stats over several rounds basically pointless.

You miss understand. If you get 100 points for having the largest army, then you get 100 total point be it 300K or 300 million. The scoring points for the "hall of fame" is for rank placement only.

soon you will have arguements going about who was better, a guy who held rank 5 in five straight waves, or the guy who held rank 1 in a wave, rank 3 in another, didnt play one at all, and held ranks 7 and 4 in the last two waves. Who has bragging rights?

Thats all I'm saying. Other games have already refined this idea because they been through it already. Why not use what is know to work from the beginning?
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Post by Manleva on Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:31 pm

@ Nomad - I understood the mechanics of the Q system but I can't agree with it.

Ranking players across numerous rounds would somewhat address around who was better in the long run but would only be applicable if there were few and minor changes between the rounds.

When any major new features were added or the player base underwent changes you would then find disagreement between players appearing anyway. Rank 1 when there are only 30 players is very different to Rank 1 when there are 100 players. Ignoring changes between rounds is like comparing apples with oranges.

This was the main reason for suggesting a locked thread in the forum where specific achievements for each round are recorded. Not only do you get the achievements but significant changes and or player instigated events can be recorded which puts the achievements in context with each other.

Now I am fairly sure that someone will say that there is not a lot of point in putting it in the forum as it is not visited by a lot of players. My view on this is that it will do the opposite and encourage more players to come to the forum. The more players visiting the forum the stronger the community as a whole becomes and player retention increases. An example of this is the implementation of the chat because I am seeing players in there that I don't see in the forums and this provides a different perspective because they become more than just a name that appears on the battlefield.
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Post by Kenzu on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:14 pm

Aderan Wars, be it main or RA, isn't a game confined to non-changing rules. We all know that they evolve, change and improve.

Since the game isn't always the same, ranking people based on multiple rounds can lead to certain disagreements which have been mentioned before.

@Nomad
If you get Gold in say Covert Action, then you must have been rank 1 at a point in time. It's likely that when round ends, you will still be among the top 10. Since everyone will see who are the top 10 covert players, when round ends, if you show your gold covert medal or not will not be much difference.
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Post by Manleva on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:22 pm

The problem with including medals is that some people consider them to be private. Also these medals are awarded at the end of the month so that it is possible in the 3 month period for a different player to achieve the each medal at the end of each month.

Taking your example of the Covert Action medal, 3 players can achieve the gold medal (one each month) Their actual covert levels will be different and not comparable. It is also possible that the player who received the gold medal at the end of the first month could end up with the lowest covert action at the end of the round.

The awarding of medals is don as part of the games mechanics with the recipient being dependent on how players actually build their accounts.
I have two gold medals myself so far in this round, however I do not actually consider them to be achievements because they in no way reflect anything to do with my rank but rather that I places a different emphasis on certain areas of my account than the majority of other players.
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Post by Nomad on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:24 pm

Kenzu wrote:
@Nomad
If you get Gold in say Covert Action, then you must have been rank 1 at a point in time. It's likely that when round ends, you will still be among the top 10. Since everyone will see who are the top 10 covert players, when round ends, if you show your gold covert medal or not will not be much difference.

I understand that, but please answer my question.

If I mass my account away to just a few men, or get my account massed away by someone else, how or why would a gold medal have anything to do with my rank? That confuses me greatly. I can get a gold medal, untrain every spy i have and stay in top ranks based on a medal? I'm still confused as to why a medal has an standing or bearing at all in the matter?

*Edit, yeah basicly what ^ he said
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