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Post by Mystake Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:57 am


I don't fully understand how PTR works.
Nor do I understand the whole account value worth thing something there that I don't understand.

For simplicities sake, I will say my account is worth 1000 turns.
I trade away 501 turns in exchange for 1 turn (using only one currency again for simplicity), my PTR is -50%, correct?
If the other person's acc however, is worth 10 000turns, their PTR goes up only 5%, correct?

Essentially, with careful planning, it is within the game's measure to be able to cause one account to go heavily into the red making it so that other accounts are green, only to then eventually abandon the red account.

No?
I thought I read somewhere that you can send up to a certain % daily and your PTR won't change? If that's the case, that very same account could have 10 people send it 10 000at, and for 10 days slowly send 1000 back to each person. Then the acc gets dumped while the other ppl are free to re-do some trading... causing a catalystic event where the balance of PTR will be completely offset.
As it stands, with accs being worth different from each other, its technically impossible for everyone to get back to a 0% ptr, meaning some people WILL HAVE TO BE in the red, according to the game mechanics as I understand it.

Someone please tell me I am wrong.

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Post by Nomad Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:04 am

Mystake1 wrote:
I don't fully understand how PTR works.
Nor do I understand the whole account value worth thing something there that I don't understand.

For simplicities sake, I will say my account is worth 1000 turns.
I trade away 501 turns in exchange for 1 turn (using only one currency again for simplicity), my PTR is -50%, correct?
If the other person's acc however, is worth 10 000turns, their PTR goes up only 5%, correct?

Essentially, with careful planning, it is within the game's measure to be able to cause one account to go heavily into the red making it so that other accounts are green, only to then eventually abandon the red account.

No?
I thought I read somewhere that you can send up to a certain % daily and your PTR won't change? If that's the case, that very same account could have 10 people send it 10 000at, and for 10 days slowly send 1000 back to each person. Then the acc gets dumped while the other ppl are free to re-do some trading... causing a catalystic event where the balance of PTR will be completely offset.
As it stands, with accs being worth different from each other, its technically impossible for everyone to get back to a 0% ptr, meaning some people WILL HAVE TO BE in the red, according to the game mechanics as I understand it.

Someone please tell me I am wrong.

Your right and wrong.

You can do what your saying, but who would and why?

No one can hit "0" as its a moving target. what is "0" one day is plus or minus 1 to 5% the next. as long as you are within plus or minus 15% don't worry about it. If your outside that then work at getting back in it.
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Post by Mystake Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:09 am

Why? To keep from being in the red.

Who? Not me, but I'm saying it's possible.

I'm just proving a point that the PTR is null. How is it a moving target? Are you telling me that... back to my example...

I send 501 at for 1 ati n return, from an account worth 1000 turns, my PTR is -50%, right?

if I rebuild the account back to 1000 turns by the next day, the PTR will go to 0?


edit: by null I mean that the game mechanics, within the way it was designed, make it so that PTR can in fact be a non-issue, adding that an account can 'accumulate' and 'fix' other's PTR, sacrificing it's own PTR as it's only purpose, only to then be abandoned.

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Post by Admin Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:14 am

Mystake1 wrote:adding that an account can 'accumulate' and 'fix' other's PTR, sacrificing it's own PTR as it's only purpose, only to then be abandoned.
it can, but when i find it then even the accounts that got fixed will get banned
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Post by Mystake Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:53 am

But it is within the game's mechanics and abilities, and there is no rule against it.

Find me the rule that say it is not allowed, and find me where the game ATTEMPTS to even remotely TRY to stop you from doing this.

p.s. I like your disclaimer. Same applies back from me. Razz

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Post by Admin Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:56 pm

Mystake1 wrote:But it is within the game's mechanics and abilities, and there is no rule against it.

Find me the rule that say it is not allowed, and find me where the game ATTEMPTS to even remotely TRY to stop you from doing this.

p.s. I like your disclaimer. Same applies back from me. Razz
while I appreciate you pointing out that manipulating PTR isn't in the rules, I'll use very simple logic:

The point of PTR is to show if someone gets feeded too much.
Feeding is illegal as stated in the rules
Manipulating PTR would therefore defeat the purpose of it and allow for less likely to be detected feeding. Hence it is against the rules

The game does attempt to stop you from doing this somewhat. sending resources to inactives for example will not work.
So there is a clear sign that doing it is not encouraged, however I agree with you that there should be more protections put in place and I have been considering some, though have not found a good alternative yet.
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Post by Mystake Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:35 pm

Does PTR only work on trade broker? or when u give resources directly? Cause if ur being fed, u can just send off a bunch of uu to an inactive account and raid them back, lol.

that's even easier.

you may as well remove PTR and find an alternative way of regulating trade. That, or don't regulate it. Feeding is a part of the game, yeah it sucks but tell me you've never seen an SGW alliance play, where they have an alliance economic growth program?
everyone pitches in 50b/week, 30ppl, buys 2-3m uu (back then when I was in an alliance lol). That or ppl pool together to buy covert levels?

Feeding is a part of the game and is quite frankly a strategy for alliances.

So, like I said, find a different way of regulating trade. Private trade brokers are one of the most useful and liked features in a game. Capitalize, don't paralyze!

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Post by Nomad Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:37 pm

Mystake1 wrote:Does PTR only work on trade broker? or when u give resources directly? Cause if ur being fed, u can just send off a bunch of uu to an inactive account and raid them back, lol.

that's even easier.

you may as well remove PTR and find an alternative way of regulating trade. That, or don't regulate it. Feeding is a part of the game, yeah it sucks but tell me you've never seen an SGW alliance play, where they have an alliance economic growth program?
everyone pitches in 50b/week, 30ppl, buys 2-3m uu (back then when I was in an alliance lol). That or ppl pool together to buy covert levels?

Feeding is a part of the game and is quite frankly a strategy for alliances.

So, like I said, find a different way of regulating trade. Private trade brokers are one of the most useful and liked features in a game. Capitalize, don't paralyze!

It regulates everything BUT GM market trades.

We have asked admin for the ability to use alliance programs and still hope in the next alliance update or empire update to be allowed to do so but only time will tell.

AW is a game on its own. If you don't like not having feeders then go play a game that allows it, not try to change this game to be like Every other game out there. Some of us happen to like the slow and strategic pace this game allows.
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Post by Mystake Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:03 am

oh god please, i LOVE the slow and strategic part of the game, ABSOLUTELY. I too don't want feeders, i think it's lame. however, there's feeding then there's being a buddy/alliancemate.

I'm fighting to remove PTR, or at least with the alliance bank topic I'm tackling, make it so you can at least actually play. In theory its a good idea but in practice it restricts a LOT more than JUST feeding.

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Post by Nomad Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:09 am

Mystake wrote:oh god please, i LOVE the slow and strategic part of the game, ABSOLUTELY. I too don't want feeders, i think it's lame. however, there's feeding then there's being a buddy/alliancemate.

I'm fighting to remove PTR, or at least with the alliance bank topic I'm tackling, make it so you can at least actually play. In theory its a good idea but in practice it restricts a LOT more than JUST feeding.

Oh I agree, and 1 change would make everything OK with alliances.

As it stands now if player A gives player B resources and keeps them for 30 days, then gives back the same resources those resources are worth a different amount, thats the most severe issue.


Secondly, most alliance programs require 1 or more players to handle the funds, so in a ten man alliance 9 men send resources to 1 man, and then he distributes them per the program, but it kills the 1 mans PTR now so again its a mess.

The creation of alliance banks, or the creating on "frozen" resource values on alliance trades will need to happen before any real team work can start.
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hy·poc·ri·sy
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1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's real character or actual behavior, esp the pretense of virtue and piety
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Post by Mystake Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:21 am

Mhm.

Just to further the point on just how much team work is discouraged, I can't help alliance mates out with donating resources to them to give them a chance to jump up a bit.

Where I may be a bit better off than they, I can't share my wealth, they have to give me something (THEIR SOUL!!!) in return.

Where's the team play?

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Post by Mystake Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:24 am

Admin;


Tomorrow I get massed. My damages amount to 250b, UU and weapons included.

I can't afford to fix this, my alliance mates want to give me resources so I can do it.

How do they? Where do you differentiate between Fairplay&Alliance Aid, to Feeding?

Is feeding not where low unplayed accounts are logged into, infrequently, only to send resources away? Track THAT, not the resources themselves!

How is me receiving financial aid from my alliance feeding, if we're all actively playing the game adn trying to build up together as a team?

I am not a one man wolf pack.



EDIT: DONE. I have the solution to feeder accounts.

"The Market Award"
BRONZE: Gives access to purchasing 5$ SS. 5$ SS only last 30 days. AWARDED upon using 2500 TURNS
SILVER: 5$ SS lasts 60 days. Awarded upon using 7500 TURNS
GOLD: 5$ SS lasts however long it says it does, OR, you unlock the 20$ SS which gives it to you longer than the current 20$ SS does (come on, those figures are awful. if u want, we'll go over the math because the numbers really, really need to be redone)
awarded at 12500 turns?


either way, restrict market functionality, not game play! Make the new accounts work for market access! 2AT/turn, 12500 AT? That's 24 days worth of AT, so be just over 3 weeks. Anyoen who plays, uses the market trades a few times will hit that target in 2 weeks. Guess what? Gotta play actively to get there though! Anyone who plays to this point and then feeds becomes an obvious account anyway, and then its just a matter of having code that has built in Flags.

login/att ratio, as in, user logs in 5x/week, attacks 2x, market brokers 3x.... it sets off a Flag.

it'll have to be tweaked over time but any time a flag shows up, you just investigate. Only you know what the triggers are and what can be triggered so no one can try to 'work' their way around it.
do it so that if an acc sets off 2-3 flags, they pop up under ur system. else, they stay in a 'on watch' category, so to speak... just waiting for that 2nd flag to pop up and go "HEY, check me out! I may be illegitimate!"


Sounds like a plan, no?


Last edited by Mystake on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Admin Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:29 am

my logic was always that over time, every alliance program will eventually end up with a zero sum.

first it's you receiving help. then later you will help others again balacing out your ptr again.
that's how i differentiate between fairplay & alliance aid and feeding.
true alliances have resources going both ways eventually.
And you dont need to always send back the same amount, since you have a -20/+20 spread, that's 40% of your total account value.
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Post by Mystake Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 am

but over time i beleive you've said that if u receive 100b, u ahfta send back 130b.

thats preposterous.

on that note, I'd like to loan you 100$. I want 130$ back though. That doesn't seem reasonable, does it?

Heck, why do I have to receive something, if I've given?
That's like the ultimate blockade in trying to help. It's not help if you get it back later.

On your logic too, you HAVe to stay in hte alliance return the favour. You can't get helped, get into a disagreement then leave/get kicked without hurting your PTR, because there won't ever be a zero sum.

and I think it's been proven/mentioned that PTR has no zero sum, it physically is not possible for it to have one.


edit: see my above post, I edited it. I've solved you feeder account problem, in a way that utilizes the game's Achievement features. Also... can u check to make sure my account is getting the Day Counter working properly? It's from July2009, should've got golden loyalty by now.

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Post by Admin Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:13 pm

the day counter works, only you dont get active days when you dont login Smile

while your suggestion looks good, there's 2 more things (there's more but this is what i remember off the top of my head that were the reason to introduce ptr) I would like to see adressed
1) people buying and "buying" resources for cash/cross server
2) one alliance feeding resources to one single person to boost their strike tech to wipe out all defs for little cost

explanation:
1) I dont have a problem with people buying resources for cash as such. it boosts gameplay since more people play if they think they can sell out anytime. So from a playerbase perspective it's undisputably good, and I want it to continue
The problem is someone buying too many resources (though not a big issue since one account can only do so much damage, no matter the size) and someone actually simply getting feeded while saying they are cross server trading (or buying for cash)
2) it's a legit tactic for alliances to use, so to some extent I have no issue with people using it, however it gives somewhat too much of an advantage to those alliances who can afford high techs vs those who cannot. Forcing both sides to use less developed strikes will also balance out war losses somewhat (obviously still in favor of the stronger alliance but nowhere near to the extent that it could be)
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Post by Nomad Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:42 pm

Admin wrote:the day counter works, only you dont get active days when you dont login Smile

while your suggestion looks good, there's 2 more things (there's more but this is what i remember off the top of my head that were the reason to introduce ptr) I would like to see adressed
1) people buying and "buying" resources for cash/cross server
2) one alliance feeding resources to one single person to boost their strike tech to wipe out all defs for little cost

explanation:
1) I dont have a problem with people buying resources for cash as such. it boosts gameplay since more people play if they think they can sell out anytime. So from a playerbase perspective it's undisputably good, and I want it to continue
The problem is someone buying too many resources (though not a big issue since one account can only do so much damage, no matter the size) and someone actually simply getting feeded while saying they are cross server trading (or buying for cash)
2) it's a legit tactic for alliances to use, so to some extent I have no issue with people using it, however it gives somewhat too much of an advantage to those alliances who can afford high techs vs those who cannot. Forcing both sides to use less developed strikes will also balance out war losses somewhat (obviously still in favor of the stronger alliance but nowhere near to the extent that it could be)

Tie all $$ trades to your monthly allowablr $$ trade rate. To send more then 1% of your account value to another player for "free" you have to send it through PP with the SS and resources being traded ingame and controled. Stop being able to send direct funds outside of alliances, and only allow it in alliances through the alliance fund/tax. Create a % counter. Lets use 20% of your total account value. It shows your % in the alliance fund page, when you have 20% in you can put no more in until you take some out. Same on the other side. You can only recieve 20% of your account value from the alliance before you have to pay back in.

Possible exploits are jumping in and out of alliances, so track it. Plus make it a 30 to 60 day feature meaning you have to wait that long to use it, and its like officer PTR, leave and come back and it follows you


this will allow 2 alliance funds you have cut out. 1 the alliance war chest as everyone can have funds sitting in wait for war. 2. the help program where individuals can be helped to reach their goals.

you can even allow a transfer of goods on an alliance level. you put in kewal but get UU back (i sugest it uses the GM market for the trade, feature can only be used by alliance leader)
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Post by Mystake Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:47 am

Nomad not sure I follow your ideas too much, martin, see your PM.

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Post by Nomad Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:58 am

Admin has a set limit of how much $$ you can spend per month on his game.


Why not regulate player to player $$ trades in the same manner?

Thats the jest of the idea.
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hy·poc·ri·sy
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–noun, plural -sies.

1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
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Post by Mystake Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:02 am

How does he regulate it? Use the game as a middle-man? Then how does he do that instead?

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Post by Nomad Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:30 pm

he regulates it by giving you a 100$ limit for a 1 month time frame.

This is only in game functions such as buying SS packs, and BM resources through the game.


I'm suggesting he expand on this idea, and move it to P 2 P trades as well.
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hy·poc·ri·sy
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–noun, plural -sies.

1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
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Post by seaborgium Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:31 pm

its 100$ every 45 days.
Also did he ever do the "fix" to the PTR rates from the poll?

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Post by kingkongfan1 Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:57 pm

I personally have not seen any changes to my PTR, but I'll give Admin the benefit of the doubt, as I think we may see it in the upcoming updates...
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Post by Kenzu Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:45 pm

Nomad wrote:
Mystake wrote:oh god please, i LOVE the slow and strategic part of the game, ABSOLUTELY. I too don't want feeders, i think it's lame. however, there's feeding then there's being a buddy/alliancemate.

I'm fighting to remove PTR, or at least with the alliance bank topic I'm tackling, make it so you can at least actually play. In theory its a good idea but in practice it restricts a LOT more than JUST feeding.

Oh I agree, and 1 change would make everything OK with alliances.

As it stands now if player A gives player B resources and keeps them for 30 days, then gives back the same resources those resources are worth a different amount, thats the most severe issue.


Secondly, most alliance programs require 1 or more players to handle the funds, so in a ten man alliance 9 men send resources to 1 man, and then he distributes them per the program, but it kills the 1 mans PTR now so again its a mess.

The creation of alliance banks, or the creating on "frozen" resource values on alliance trades will need to happen before any real team work can start.

It would be unfair for a person to collect say 100 billion from his alliance mates, keep them for a month and then distribute 100 billion to his alliance.
Why? Because he could have used them to grow faster, but didnt share any of this with his alliance, and his alliance mates grew slower because of what they have sent to him.

Nomad wrote:he regulates it by giving you a 100$ limit for a 1 month time frame.

This is only in game functions such as buying SS packs, and BM resources through the game.


I'm suggesting he expand on this idea, and move it to P 2 P trades as well.

Problem is it's hard to check how much has been paid for resources, since one can't be looking into paypal accounts of players.
It's impossible to make sure that all trades will be under supervision, but it is possible for those who voluntarily want it supervised with a middle man, for example to make sure that no scams happen.
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Post by Nomad Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:01 am

Kenzu wrote:

1It would be unfair for a person to collect say 100 billion from his alliance mates, keep them for a month and then distribute 100 billion to his alliance.
Why? Because he could have used them to grow faster, but didnt share any of this with his alliance, and his alliance mates grew slower because of what they have sent to him.



2Problem is it's hard to check how much has been paid for resources, since one can't be looking into paypal accounts of players.
It's impossible to make sure that all trades will be under supervision, but it is possible for those who voluntarily want it supervised with a middle man, for example to make sure that no scams happen.

1I'd like to point out the underlined phrase. Also would be willing to suggest the "alliance funds" have to stay liquid. Meaning he can not spend them on himself. The better idea would be to have an alliance feature that holds the resources so no one gets use of them during "storage". But it is still madness and ruins the idea of an alliance program to begin with under the present rules of "loaning" funds now but being charged a greater rate when they are returned later. There is a solution, its just getting Admin to actually understand, realise, and act on the fact there is a problem,,, well not problem but a better way.

2I do not know coding, but I would assume there would be a way to code it so that when the Broker is made INGAME and is accepted INGAME that admin could see and record it. I mean if the broker is for 10$ for 3mill UU I really don't see whats had about finding the information needed? But I'll leave that to the coders.
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2. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's real character or actual behavior, esp the pretense of virtue and piety
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Post by Mystake Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:36 am

DEREGULATE ALLIANCE TEAMWORK


ADERANWARS: THE LONEWOLF'S PLAYGROUND


orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ADERANWARS: come play a TEAM BASED game!


*COUGH* *COUGH*

Marting, you want AW to grow? For AW to grow, WE need to grow! Smile




edit: I'd like to announce my bid to run as President of the AderanWorld (AKA "AW"... hehe :p)


Last edited by Mystake on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : announced bid for presidency)

Mystake
Aderan Miner
Aderan Miner

ID : 12
Number of posts : 256
Location : Not a comedy club
Registration date : 2011-01-02

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