Is it just me or ...

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Is it just me or ...

Post by curumo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:08 pm

... do some people have unreasonably high defenses for their incomes or accounts to support?

In this respect I have a question ... more like looking for advice: What to do with such people? Cause said defenses makes them nigh unfarmable proffitably (I'm talking 3 b-4 b defenses on 1-3 m accounts ...).

So any thoughts to help a very distraught Curu out?

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by seaborgium on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:10 pm

mass them.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Nimras on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:11 pm

Hmm i am working on 2bill + on my account hehe and i am close to 4mill.

My officer is not even 3mill yet and has close to 3bill so she are sure not to be farmed lol-

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Nimras on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:11 pm

seaborgium wrote:mass them.

Sure but stay out of my officers logs tho Wink.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by curumo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:13 pm

Sea was thinking about that but that would cause a storm for my alliance and m8s ... I'm just so damn frustrated over seeing such crap ...

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Nimras on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:15 pm

curumo wrote:Sea was thinking about that but that would cause a storm for my alliance and m8s ... I'm just so damn frustrated over seeing such crap ...

Well mass those who actually are hiding behind it and not playing often and think they are safe thats what i would do.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by curumo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

I believe that would cause a war lol ...

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by SovietMan on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:42 pm

yeah this is soooo annoying! i've seen some with 4.5B defence and just a little bit more army size than me.
added:also, wars are fun! never been in one yet though.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Kenzu on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:59 pm

Defenses unreasonably high?

I have 11 billion defense. Is this unreasonably high?

It all depends on the perspective. For someone who logs in 5 times a day 1 billion defense is enough, but for someone of equal size, who logs in 2 times a day, might need 3 billion defense to be safe from attacks.

You should also consider one thing, increasing your defenses might be costly, but it can provide many benefits, for example you don't need to switch relaxed/overtime, and this saves you A LOT OF MONEY!

overtime +20% -20 motivation
relaxed -30% +15 motivation

result:
if you sleep 10 hours, you need 20 turns relaxed
-600% income +300 motivation

you go on overtime to spend these 300 motivation, that's 15 turns
+300% income -300 motivation

This means you WASTE 3 turns of income each single day you use relaxed at night!
Why not spend additional 2 days of income on defense, if it will save you 3 turns of income each day?

Also, if you switch the work conditions each day, it can happen that you will make a mistake one day, or forget to switch it at some moment ending up with 1000/1000 and relaxed before you go to sleep, or with overtime during night and get farmed. Something you can easily prevent with higher defense.

I save over 1 billion kuwal simply because I have a defense high enough to protect me from any attacks, as long as I log in 2 times a day, even if I dont change work conditions.

This means that I save 30 billion kuwal each month, which is enough to train and arm 65.000 UU into supers with tanks.

I rather spend my kuwal on defense than losing it on work conditions.

Also, if someone gets farmed at night, it's logical that they will increase defenses to prevent getting farmed. (Of course they could also mass the person who attacked them, but this would obviously lead to war).


Another thing is how fast you can replace your defenses if destroyed. You can easily raid 1.000 uu with each raid, relatively easy to raid 500.000 UU if you got enough ST and AT all in one day. No matter what your armysize, if you got say 150.000 supers with tanks and can anytime raid 500.000 UU, you can easily sell a batch of the raided uu and replace lost defenses within 1-3 days.
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by curumo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:05 pm

Let's take someone with a 2 m account and a 3 b defense. I reckon that person should have 200 k defenders or so, 50 k attackers, 300-400 k spies/assassins - so they'd have what an income of 100 mill? For them to have 2 B + out they have to not log in for how long? Less than 2x a day? That's if they don't use crit or relaxed/over...

It just truly frustrates me how ridiculous certain people are in their account setups and just hide behind tags and regulations and stuff like that.

And no your def ain't nothing out of the ordinary imo cause you have a VERY nice army size. Now if you'd have a 30 b def on your army size ... Then I'd say the same thing about you ...

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Kenzu on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:12 pm

curumo wrote:Let's take someone with a 2 m account and a 3 b defense. I reckon that person should have 200 k defenders or so, 50 k attackers, 300-400 k spies/assassins - so they'd have what an income of 100 mill? For them to have 2 B + out they have to not log in for how long? Less than 2x a day? That's if they don't use crit or relaxed/over...

It just truly frustrates me how ridiculous certain people are in their account setups and just hide behind tags and regulations and stuff like that.

And no your def ain't nothing out of the ordinary imo cause you have a VERY nice army size. Now if you'd have a 30 b def on your army size ... Then I'd say the same thing about you ...

But you should also know that there are huge disparities in technologies. While top players might have 170-200% def tech and use tanks or mobile artilleries, small players might have only 120-130% tech and use only IFV. This means that big players super has a power of 18.700, while a small players super has a power of 9.600
Obviously a player with 20.000.000 population can be easily covered with 2.5% population in defense, while a player with 5.000.000 might need 8-10%, and a player of 1.000.000 up to 15% in defense. It's all because of huge technology gaps.

But it is true that some people overdoing it, especially if they have more military than income units. But it's not recommended to play North Korea style on Aderan Wars, it is the safe path to a defeat.
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by curumo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:17 pm

Myeah but then many of the small players train more units to have the same size defense - whereas they could spend the kuwal on levels - and that would yield the same result...

I dunno... I'll see what I will do. I think I have to think about it.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by seaborgium on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:22 pm

I have 200% techs and I don't even carry a 2b def.

Curumo once I am done with my current 2 projects people with the high defs won't beable to hide.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by curumo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:27 pm

Sea count me in.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by ian on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:39 pm

Lol, yes its very frustrating and starting to becoming massively annoying considering the recent suggestions made to change the TIE/TOC peace-treaty via implementing a maximum minimum profit requirement based on army size... which would basically make the handful of large players farmable.... and at the same time other suggestions being put forward to implement a minimum 600million profit (regardless of army size) or enact a army size x 300 = minimum profit needed policy.

.... All of which taken together would have the effect of rendering TIE largish-players farmable (since there would be a maximum minimum profit), while making the generally unfarmable, smaller & weaker T.O.C players even more unfarmable than they already are.

LI & Kenzu are right... the TIE/TOC farming agreement does need revising, just I suspect the revisions TIE's interested in is now so fundamentally different to TOC's that we d never reach a agreement again, and it would only result in rising tensions.

Hence why for the moment all attempts to change it have been rejected by TIE & we ve not made any of our own suggestions (since we already know they d be rejected - a point confirmed by this whole discussion regarding ridiculous defences... which is mainly what TIE would aim to get rid of in any policy changes) - and simply put:

There's absolutely nothing to be gained in engaging in a discussion which would rapidly become a argument which would probably result in either:

1.) No progress and us sticking with whats already agreed
2.) A fundamental & heated disagreement resulting in the treaty collapsing.

So, better to have a unhappy-ill contented peace than a heated argument resulting from 2 completely incompatible viewpoints trying to find a middle-ground which would probably only be settled (eventually) via resorting (again) to war.

Incase anyone is wondering:

Curumo's view point is not one of isolation. Virtually all of The Imperium now hates the agreed TIE/TOC farming policy with avengeance given by and large there is very little opportunity to farm TOC, while at the same time considerable farming of TIE continues.

The problem is, has always been, and is even more so now - that there are many T.O.C player's who now have ridiculous defense sizes vs. their income which allow them to go extended (i.e. 12hours+) periods of time without banking, while at the same time far more active TIE members due to far better/healthier economies go less time without banking & get farmed.

The *only* solution to such a problem (and it would be the only way T.O.C could ever get TIE to adopt one of their desired changes I.e. an TIE-desired change & in return TOC gets a desired change) would be the imposition of a maximum defense limit (i.e. 6 days economic generation or something) and those over it would be able to be farmed regardless.

Clearly... that would never be agreed to, hence the existing TIE-TOC agreement remains unchanged.... simply because there is no middle ground to be had with such a problem.

Sticking with what was agreed seems the best way to keep the peace to me... otherwise we ll just be opening a whole new-can of worms lol
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Kenzu on Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:21 pm

seaborgium wrote:I have 200% techs and I don't even carry a 2b def.

Curumo once I am done with my current 2 projects people with the high defs won't beable to hide.

ian said:
To get 200% Defense Technology will cost me 212,449,400,000

Lets imagine a guy who spends 50 billion on defense.
he will have 79.000 supers with tanks if he bought them.

To double his power, he could spend another 50 billion, OR he will spend 212 billion on techs.

If he isn't planning to get into a war and end up massed early, he should NOT spend 212 billion on research, but instead spend 50 billion on doubling defenses and 162 billion on boosting his economy.

This is a simplified calculation.

Obviously if it costs you less kuwal to increase your defense action by 1% by doing a research than training and arming more troops, then you should research it, but it makes no sense for a guy to spend 3 billion on the next tech upgrade (+1%), if he can increase his defense action by 1% by spending 0.5 billion kuwal.

Of course if you are in an alliances which took part in an alliance war, it's statistically likely that there will be another one sooner or later, and it makes sense to make the +1% upgrade even if it costs 2 times more than training more troops and arming more soldiers.

For anyone below 10 million population to have over 180% in techs is economically unreasonable, and people who have less than 20 million shouldn't have 200% either. I myself don't have 200% and I did precise calculations and also considered the risk of getting massed.

I calculated that it costs me 31.4 kuwal to increase my defense action by 1 if I train more units and build more weapons (633.000 per super with tank)
but it costs me 84.5 kuwal to increase my defense action by 1 if I research the next Defense Tech upgrade (5.113.000.000 kuwal for next research)

And my def tech is 171% right now.

It makes sense for you to have 200% in all stats only if you plan on getting massed very frequently.

ian wrote:
LI & Kenzu are right... the TIE/TOC farming agreement does need revising, just I suspect the revisions TIE's interested in is now so fundamentally different to TOC's that we d never reach a agreement again, and it would only result in rising tensions.

Hence why for the moment all attempts to change it have been rejected by TIE & we ve not made any of our own suggestions (since we already know they d be rejected - a point confirmed by this whole discussion regarding ridiculous defences... which is mainly what TIE would aim to get rid of in any policy changes) - and simply put:

There's absolutely nothing to be gained in engaging in a discussion which would rapidly become a argument which would probably result in either:

1.) No progress and us sticking with whats already agreed
2.) A fundamental & heated disagreement resulting in the treaty collapsing.

So, better to have a unhappy-ill contented peace than a heated argument resulting from 2 completely incompatible viewpoints trying to find a middle-ground which would probably only be settled (eventually) via resorting (again) to war.

Why are you talking about TOC revisions when we always discussed mujengan revisions only.

A discussion is something we can benefit from. It can lead to war only if at least one of the leaders is decides to start a war over words, which only an incompetent leader would do, and I don't see any incompetent leaders here. That's why I think a war because of a discussion is unlikely.

We can discuss, but if we cant agree on anthing we stick with what we have. It's not perfect, but its unlikely to have a perfect farming policy which everyone likes anyway.

ian wrote:
Incase anyone is wondering:

Curumo's view point is not one of isolation. Virtually all of The Imperium now hates the agreed TIE/TOC farming policy with avengeance given by and large there is very little opportunity to farm TOC, while at the same time considerable farming of TIE continues.

The problem is, has always been, and is even more so now - that there are many T.O.C player's who now have ridiculous defense sizes vs. their income which allow them to go extended (i.e. 12hours+) periods of time without banking, while at the same time far more active TIE members due to far better/healthier economies go less time without banking & get farmed.

The *only* solution to such a problem (and it would be the only way T.O.C could ever get TIE to adopt one of their desired changes I.e. an TIE-desired change & in return TOC gets a desired change) would be the imposition of a maximum defense limit (i.e. 6 days economic generation or something) and those over it would be able to be farmed regardless.

Clearly... that would never be agreed to, hence the existing TIE-TOC agreement remains unchanged.... simply because there is no middle ground to be had with such a problem.

Sticking with what was agreed seems the best way to keep the peace to me... otherwise we ll just be opening a whole new-can of worms lol

Yeah, I agree with you.

But maybe we should try to alter the policy step by step with small changes. Dont jump from compensation which can be asked even after 1 month to a compensation which has to be asked after 4 days. It's unlikely it will be agreed on, but I guess we all could agree that compensation has to be asked within 14 days for now. And no one says it can't be changed again by a couple days. It's better to make small progress each week than trying to get everything at once and failing at it.
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Lord Ishurue on Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:42 am


Sab Those players if they have poor CA or AA .




Last edited by Lord Ishurue on Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : unclear definition of stat builder)
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by seaborgium on Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:32 am

Funny coming from the guys who's alliance is building stats.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Lord Ishurue on Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:56 am

seaborgium wrote:Funny coming from the guys who's alliance is building stats.

i answered you on MSN in regards to stat builders. with a particular player not mentioned in this thread .
that is what u call a stat builder .

Stat builder = someone who does not build an economy
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by kingkongfan1 on Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:42 am

curumo wrote:... do some people have unreasonably high defenses for their incomes or accounts to support?

In this respect I have a question ... more like looking for advice: What to do with such people? Cause said defenses makes them nigh unfarmable proffitably (I'm talking 3 b-4 b defenses on 1-3 m accounts ...).

So any thoughts to help a very distraught Curu out?

I have thought about this for a while; & have come to the conclusion that I do not understand what exactly you are asking...
Are you going to war with said example? that is easy enough answer, destroy them.
Are you wanting to attempt to farm/raid them? if so then take your chance with the hit being legal/illegal as stated by policies...
last leave them alone if they are not bothering anyone,,, honestly I'm not real sure what you are asking here. sorry if the above is not what you were looking for...
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Nimras on Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:45 am

Lord Ishurue wrote:
seaborgium wrote:Funny coming from the guys who's alliance is building stats.

i answered you on MSN in regards to stat builders. with a particular player not mentioned in this thread .
that is what u call a stat builder .

Stat builder = someone who does not build an economy

Stat Builder = SOMEONE who doese not fight, someone who hides behind his stats and OTHERS such as alot of the people in ToC Wink. A stat builder is a coward he has alot of income as well.

A stat builder NEED income to hold the stats they want Ish so offcourse they have a economy what they don't have is guts to fight so they praise and hope by building big stats to look mean will stop people from massing or hitting them so they can enjoy the income they make for them self, a stat builder rarely farms hence why he has a economy that will hold him and make him able to grow and build.

So shouldn't we just say again look in your own alliance/empire first you have/had tons of them Wink.

Thats what a statbuilder is claiming they have no economy is so showing you don't know a good statbuilder lol.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Jiro on Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:08 pm

@Ian: I've been able to profitably farm both Mujengan and WR. I know people from TIE have been farming Emperors way more than we have been farming them. In fact, I've been only farming Loregram, Shadowrha and Zerstören lately because these are the only ones with a low enough defence and high enough amount of Kuwal out.
There are a couple of people with very large armysize 8M+ and low defence (1 bil) who depend on the 150 * armysize to be more than what your profit would be, but I would have expected this to be a bigger problem than it actually is.
What do you think of setting a minimum profit defined by the lower of 0.5 * defence and 150 * armysize? (0,5 and 150 up for tweaking). This would eliminate the need to require a minimum investment in defence.
Maybe we should produce some numbers to see who gets farmed by whom and how big the problem is.


Last edited by Jiro on Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added zerstören and proposal.)

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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Kenzu on Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:36 pm

Jiro wrote:@Ian: I've been able to profitably farm both Mujengan and WR. I know people from TIE have been farming Emperors way more than we have been farming them. In fact, I've been only farming Loregram, Shadowrha and Zerstören lately because these are the only ones with a low enough defence and high enough amount of Kuwal out.
There are a couple of people with very large armysize 8M+ and low defence (1 bil) who depend on the 150 * armysize to be more than what your profit would be, but I would have expected this to be a bigger problem than it actually is.
What do you think of setting a minimum profit defined by the lower of 0.5 * defence and 150 * armysize? (0,5 and 150 up for tweaking). This would eliminate the need to require a minimum investment in defence.
Maybe we should produce some numbers to see who gets farmed by whom and how big the problem is.

I wonder how you want to achieve such huge effort. You would have to go over tousands of attack logs.
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Re: Is it just me or ...

Post by Jiro on Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:22 pm

I can easily pull my farming logs for the past weeks. It would take some time to do this for all of Emperors. I imagine it would be a heinous task for someone alone to do for WR, but maybe if the task is distributed, it would work out.
You can just paste the text of each screen into a spreadsheet and you'd be able to aggregate by alliance using subtotals functionality.
Each alliance could do this for themselves and the numbers we provide to eachother should match for most part. Given that we'd only be after total amount of Kuwal farmed from alliance by alliance, maybe per week the amount of information we'd need to share is limited.

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Re: Is it just me or ...

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