Trade Balance System

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:18 pm

ian wrote:As for the massing bit - your spot on. It lowers your account value... not makes it higher....but if you re-read what admin said, you ll see he didn't say that at all - and infact said it would make the ratio higher (i.e. due to the account value being lower)
what he said, but if I also make war exp losses count towards account value then technically the ratio won't take a hit at all, even if you get massed to the ground. since all it will do is move where your account value lies. physical assets or demolished past.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:23 pm

Nomad wrote:yes and no

it showed what i thought it would do, and thats allow long term loans and alliance programs, what I am missing from your example is more a question.

Why are you sending away resources in the above example?

My question is, if your 50% OVER but you want to grow, why are you forced to sell or give away? The whole point of the game is growth isnt it? improvement? not giving away stuff or intentionally nerfing your account?

I still question how if its based on account value, and your Over the limit, how getting massed adds to your account value as it seems to me less men, less weapons = lower account value, not higher?

Over all yes I understand the system, and I like it as it does allow loans as long as they are paid back, there are no hard limits, you can be over in either direction and still make a bad broker as long as your actively doing what ever it takes to correct the bad ratio. So all in all I'm fine with it now that a half way decent explination has been made.

Tho I would still like to see how the arrows will be used, and examples of automated messages, and how and where the account value and ratio are to be posted and veiwed.

Then you are doing better than I am... all I am seeing is that if I make a series of good deals that improve my account; then I have to make a series of crappy deals that nerf my account to offset what I have gained, & improved... This is where I get confused,,, I am not getting how loans & alliance programs such as the SS program can exist without people being redlined, & if they have no time limit to get their account back in the green, then what is the point? are you saying that a player can surf the redline indefinately?
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:25 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:& if they have no time limit to get their account back in the green, then what is the point? are you saying that a player can surf the redline indefinately?
This is where the "system won't ban anyone automatically" comes in.

You'll get a message from admin if you stay too long without any "good" change.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:49 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Then you are doing better than I am... all I am seeing is that if I make a series of good deals that improve my account; then I have to make a series of crappy deals that nerf my account to offset what I have gained, & improved... This is where I get confused,,, I am not getting how loans & alliance programs such as the SS program can exist without people being redlined, & if they have no time limit to get their account back in the green, then what is the point? are you saying that a player can surf the redline indefinately?

Technicly yes you can surf the redline alot, but what you are missing (or i think your missing) is that normal account growth will erases a redline on the higher side, so if you do a series of good deals to improve your account, you redline, then stop for a few days, maybe a week, and your normal growth will pull you off the redline. Plus, if your redlined, this is the perfect time to make an alliance donation, as "giving" away the resources will then also pull you down off a redline.

Also if your giving away to many resources, such as alliance donations, or helping a friend/alliance mate/new player, that is the perfect time for your alliance to send you a chunk of those alliance funds to bring you back off the redline.

Yes this does limit your "good/high profit" trading, and direct sending such as alliance help and funds, but it does not stop it.

Ultimately a strong growth pattern will erase any redlines you may get

also, redlining does not = immediate banning. its a warning, and not meant as a bad thing, just an ingame function telling you you are hurting your account and giving you ample time to correct it, either by sending or recieving a "free" broker or taking part in sending or recieving alliance funds, or Most imprortantly, Growing your account.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:01 pm

might I add that private broker has had the % fees removed so the people who can spend enough time online can watch it and it is theoretically possible to make profits far easier than before

The reason is simple why profitable brokers are less acceptable than profitable market trades.
Brokers you can hand pick your partner, with the market everyone has a shot, hence it's less prone to abuse.

there are a few ideas being tossed around to make mass trading on the private broker easier, such as standing order (you place kuwal on market and want to buy uu, at the same time you'll say that any uu you receive should be added automatically for a different rate)

Bottom line, broker is meant to be something "shady" hence always counts toward your resources out/resources in.
The private market is far more reliable in that sense, once it's possible to completely avoid ending up with an empty offer pool, such as by getting more players to trade there.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:13 pm

Nomad wrote:
also, redlining does not = immediate banning. its a warning, and not meant as a bad thing, just an ingame function telling you you are hurting your account and giving you ample time to correct it,

let me try this... my account growing = hurting my account = redline? & the following... if I make 10 profitable trades with an alliance-mate = hurting my account = redline = having to make 10 unprofitable trades to balance it? & I still come back to the following...
Player A sells units to player B for 180,000 per; Player B then sells the units to Player C for 180,000 per; Player C in turn sells units to Player A for 180,000 per. = where is the profit = where is the growth = where is the hurting the account = why are you trading in the first place?
I have been to the Galactic Market & found not one profitable trade there...

so what I understand ATM is...
good trades = bad for my account.
Bad trades = bad for my account.
growth on my account = bad for my account.

no offense intended to anyone, but I am still in the dark, thanks for trying anyway...
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:15 pm

Admin wrote:might I add that private broker has had the % fees removed so the people who can spend enough time online can watch it and it is theoretically possible to make profits far easier than before

The reason is simple why profitable brokers are less acceptable than profitable market trades.
Brokers you can hand pick your partner, with the market everyone has a shot, hence it's less prone to abuse.

there are a few ideas being tossed around to make mass trading on the private broker easier, such as standing order (you place kuwal on market and want to buy uu, at the same time you'll say that any uu you receive should be added automatically for a different rate)

Bottom line, broker is meant to be something "shady" hence always counts toward your resources out/resources in.
The private market is far more reliable in that sense, once it's possible to completely avoid ending up with an empty offer pool, such as by getting more players to trade there.

Dont you mean galactic market?

private trade brokers are what redline you?

See what most people dislike is GM means your selkling to the guy who you are at war with, thats why people like private trade brokers as you know whos buying your goods, but thats what your working to get rid of,,,, really why dont you just get rid of it? thats the ultimate goal isnt it?

then people using the private trade broker system can just do direct sends as it will have the same effect on redlining, and with a lower % cost. Only down side is having to be online LOL



kingkongfan1 wrote:
Nomad wrote:
also, redlining does not = immediate banning. its a warning, and not meant as a bad thing, just an ingame function telling you you are hurting your account and giving you ample time to correct it,

let me try this... my account growing = hurting my account = redline? & the following... if I make 10 profitable trades with an alliance-mate = hurting my account = redline = having to make 10 unprofitable trades to balance it? & I still come back to the following...
Player A sells units to player B for 180,000 per; Player B then sells the units to Player C for 180,000 per; Player C in turn sells units to Player A for 180,000 per. = where is the profit = where is the growth = where is the hurting the account = why are you trading in the first place?
I have been to the Galactic Market & found not one profitable trade there...

so what I understand ATM is...
good trades = bad for my account.
Bad trades = bad for my account.
growth on my account = bad for my account.

no offense intended to anyone, but I am still in the dark, thanks for trying anyway...
Not sure where your getting growing your account = hurting your account, I thought my privious post stated that strong account growth can pull you off either redline in time?
good trades = bad for my account. **Only if you do it daily as it begins to look like feeding, no one gets it right 100% of the time, and it has to be an excessive amount, not 1 or 2 daily
Bad trades = bad for my account. **Mostly yes, but they can be good as well, if you have to many "good/high profit" trades then do a bad one with an alliance mate and your back in the green.

The suggested limits are what 150 to 180? so that a possiblilty for 30K per UU profit with no side effects, you can go over those limits, but as long as its not done to extremes and always in a 1 way favor then their is no issue. It just makes it more a give and get system, instead of a few people always "getting" from the same accounts every week/day.


Last edited by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:17 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
good trades = bad for my account.
Bad trades = bad for my account.
growth on my account = bad for my account.
let's say you have 1 mil population and a net balance of +40% (you received 40% of your account value)
you make no trades and get to 2 mil population, your net balance will then fall to +20%.

Your population doubled, so your balance got halved

growth on account = ALWAYS Good.

good and bad trades are only bad for your account if all you ever do is only bad trades, or only good trades.
If you make 10 good and 10 bad trades for approximately the same value then you will end up with no effect on your account

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:19 pm

Admin wrote:might I add that private broker has had the % fees removed so the people who can spend enough time online can watch it and it is theoretically possible to make profits far easier than before

The reason is simple why profitable brokers are less acceptable than profitable market trades.
Brokers you can hand pick your partner, with the market everyone has a shot, hence it's less prone to abuse.

there are a few ideas being tossed around to make mass trading on the private broker easier, such as standing order (you place kuwal on market and want to buy uu, at the same time you'll say that any uu you receive should be added automatically for a different rate)

Bottom line, broker is meant to be something "shady" hence always counts toward your resources out/resources in.
The private market is far more reliable in that sense, once it's possible to completely avoid ending up with an empty offer pool, such as by getting more players to trade there.

I think that I understood most of this, but what I do not understand is why do you force me to trade with my enemies? I.E. non alliance mates even if the trade is at a fair market value?
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:23 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
I think that I understood most of this, but what I do not understand is why do you force me to trade with my enemies? I.E. non alliance mates even if the trade is at a fair market value?

That is what most of us who dislike the GM want to know.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:26 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:I think that I understood most of this, but what I do not understand is why do you force me to trade with my enemies? I.E. non alliance mates even if the trade is at a fair market value?
Ok, one of the things i've been saying over and over Very Happy

There will be "fair rates" these will be public and change based on how people actually trade each day.
Let's say the rate ends up being 167,455 kuwal per unit (rarely will these calculate to nice numbers Smile)
If you make a broker to someone sending them 167,455,000 kuwal in return for 1k units then it will be a fair market value and none of you will see any change in their net balance, since both of you sent and received 167,455,000 kuwal worth of resources.

If however you keep doing trades sending 160 mil kuwal in return for 1k units, then each trade you make will count as if you received 7.5 mil kuwal worth of resources and for the other person will count as if they sent away 7.5 mil kuwal worth of resources.

Another bottom line:
If you make a trade following the public "Fair rates" then even using the private broker will not have any effect on your net balance.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:31 pm

Admin wrote:
good and bad trades are only bad for your account if all you ever do is only bad trades, or only good trades.
If you make 10 good and 10 bad trades for approximately the same value then you will end up with no effect on your account

believe it or not progress is being made... the above statement is unclear tho...
1) good trades are only bad for your account if all you ever make is good trades.
Question- Why would I make a bad trade? ever?
Question2- why is making bad trades good for my account? when bad trades = loss of growth on my account = bad for my account?

10 good trades + 10 bad trades = account stagnation = no growth = bad for account. this I understand...
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:34 pm

*A feeling spreads through every strain in his body, promoting the feeling that he's walking in circles

Eh, dont mind the man behind the curtain.

About the bad trades, supporting your alliance? something everyone was afraid they wouldn't be able to do.
buy units from alliance members for a higher price
or sell for a lower price

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:53 am

Is there an ETA on release?
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:54 am

This was first announced on Aug 4th, Further announced on Aug 11th, This thread started on Aug 15th, and now its the 19th.

That's 15 days or 1/2 a month. Things sure are getting quiet while everyone is waiting on you guys.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:14 am

I'm working on it
I hope that all is fully tested within the next days.


Last edited by Admin on Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by damgood on Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:34 pm

Why do you implement a new system if you just want to forbid $$ trades ? Surprised


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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:13 pm

damgood wrote:Why do you implement a new system if you just want to forbid $$ trades ? Surprised
I think we already established that they wont get forbidden.

unless "forbidden" changed its meaning from "illegal, not allowed at all" to "within bounds"

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kingofshinobis1 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:08 pm

I was wondering. What happens to all the inactives who have officers (and pay rediculous rates on either the high or low end)? Will they get banned too lol.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:25 pm

no, i'll make them ditch their officers to save us the trouble

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:39 am

Galactic Private Market
Buy Kuwal with your Untrained
Displaying up to 4 best Offers
You receive You pay Rate
11,424,901,000 Kuwal 63,121 Untrained [1:181,000]
13,305,427,800 Kuwal 73,878 Untrained [1:180,100]
6,120,837,000 Kuwal 34,581 Untrained [1:177,000]
29,891,785,833 Kuwal 175,833 Untrained [1:170,001]
Pay Untrained
to receive 11,424,901,000 Kuwal


Buy Untrained with your Kuwal
Displaying up to 4 best Offers
You receive You pay Rate
204,000 Untrained 39,168,000,000 Kuwal [1:192,000]
152,757 Untrained 29,482,101,000 Kuwal [1:193,000]
94,814 Untrained 18,393,916,000 Kuwal [1:194,000]
15,109 Untrained 2,938,700,500 Kuwal [1:194,500]


When will your "fair trade price" be adjusted? I mean you say 150 to 180 is legal, but as you can see above GM is leaving that level. Will private trade brokers be allowed to follow suit?
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kingofshinobis1 on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:28 pm

@ nomad

I would assume it would adjust automatically to market rates but idk for sure.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kenzu on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:42 pm

@Nomad

If the galactic market sells at 180-190k, then the fair price will shift towards this price automatically.

It would defy logic to have a "fair price" which is independent of market rates.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:37 pm

Kenzu wrote:@Nomad

If the galactic market sells at 180-190k, then the fair price will shift towards this price automatically.

It would defy logic to have a "fair price" which is independent of market rates.

I know I am going to get a warning here but... "logic?" the prices in the market already defy logic. & good bye to any new players being able to purchace extra units. If I & a few others were allowed to we could force the market back to logical prices on different Items... but noooooooo that apparently will be seen as cheating. (Admin can correct me if I am wrong). Also you really should check out the news section, as it clearly states the price of a unit will be 150,000 to 180,000 to be legal...
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kingkongfan1
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Coalition Officer

ID : kingkongfan1(98)
Alliance : [The Marauder's Imperium]
Age : 50
Number of posts : 1387
Location : Skull Island
Registration date : 2010-01-28

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:54 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:I know I am going to get a warning here but... "logic?" the prices in the market already defy logic. & good bye to any new players being able to purchace extra units. If I & a few others were allowed to we could force the market back to logical prices on different Items... but noooooooo that apparently will be seen as cheating. (Admin can correct me if I am wrong)
the prices in the market are what people offer to buy and sell
considering the for the last week there have been about 500k uu's traded each day, I'd say it's fairly accurate on what people are willing to pay.

besides, I dont get why a new player should be buying units. If your raw up is under 25k you should be selling units, not buying them.

kingkongfan1 wrote:Also you really should check out the news section, as it clearly states the price of a unit will be 150,000 to 180,000 to be legal...
News Page wrote:These are just guidelines, nobody is forced to strictly stay within these boundaries without fearing to be labelled as cheater.
Please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that anything outside 150k-180k is illegal.

Anyways, updated news page is online now

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Disclaimer:
1) You are always welcome to correct my assumptions and understanding of a situation but please do so in a logical and sound manner.
2) If I ask stupid questions it's only because sometimes people aren't smart enough to ask these themselves.
3) Being condescending to some people helps me keep my sanity when I am forced to interact with them.

I hate PR, will never engage in it and will rain destruction on all who refuse to use their brains to think before they speak.
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Re: Trade Balance System

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