Trade Balance System

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nimras on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:17 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Kenzu wrote:There is a simple advice how to improve it: Grow!

I have a up of 50k, a total up of 60k and my ratio drops 0.04% a day. I wonder how long admin will wait for players to fix it.

thats roughly 1230 days for me to get down to 20% from my current ratio.

IF he likes you all the time you want.

If he don't like you the corrupt admin will warn you fast and then if your not fast enough for him ban you.

So it all depends how he likes you or not and if he is having a good day or not.

The reason i am putting it like this is due to ADMIN own word on how this trade thingy works.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:04 am

I know I don't have the highest, but admin has not said anything to me, even when mine went up a little, but It has come down since.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nimras on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:05 pm

seaborgium wrote:I know I don't have the highest, but admin has not said anything to me, even when mine went up a little, but It has come down since.

Well either admin has a good day or he likes you Sea or he haven't yet given this update long enough time before he acts.

Its 1 of those 3. Maybe even all 3 together.

But admin update clearly says HE dictates how long each player get before he warns and then ban.

That means there is no fixed time frame that makes it fair to all.

Instead we have to hope the emotional Admin doese not have a crappy day or just out right don't like you because then your screwed but meh.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:11 pm

Trust me Nimras, I am not someone admin likes.
So as long as I am still playing then its good.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:33 pm

Admin... I m now confused with this transfer limit.

My limit isn't decreasing at all... its increasing.

On the 19th of September it was:

Transfer Ratio 48.75 %

Total sent
Kuwal 1,672,135,094,088
Untrained 1,734,463
Turns 17,747
Cumulative Value 841,633 Turns

Total received
Kuwal 1,334,323,250,674
Untrained 12,534,434
Turns 58,493
Cumulative Value 1,345,698 Turns

Grand Total
Kuwal- 337,811,843,414
Untrained 10,799,971
Turns 40,746
Cumulative Value 504,065 Turns
Account Value 1,034,015 Turns

-----------------------------------------

Overall Alliance Transfers
Kuwal- 58,800,000,000
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Cummlative Value -3,729 Turns

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Transfers with Your Commander
Automatic transfers
Untrained to Commander 189,704
Untrained Value 33,384,556,852 Kuwal
Kuwal to You 36,803,214,474 Kuwal
Resources Brokered to You
Kuwal 0
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Total Value to You 36,803,214,474 Kuwal
Ratio Received/Sent 110.24 %
Missing Payment 0

Transfer Ratio 48.75 %

################################################

Now its:

Total sent
Kuwal 1,758,661,094,088 + 86,526,000,000
Untrained 1,734,463 - Unchanged
Turns 17,747 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 841,633 Turns - Unchanged?!?!?!

Total received
Kuwal 1,334,323,250,674 - Unchanged
Untrained 12,534,434 - Unchanged
Turns 58,493 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 1,345,698 Turns - Unchanged

Grand Total
Kuwal -424,337,843,414 - Decreased by 86,526,000,000 kuwal
Untrained 10,799,971 - Unchanged
Turns 40,746 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 504,065 Turns - Unchanged?!?!?!
Account Value 1,033,388 Turns - Decreased by 627 turns?
Transfer Ratio 48.78 %

4 Questions on the above:

1.) Why is the cumulative value of my total sent unchanged? Surely it should be effected by whats sent?

2.) Why is the grand total cumulative value unchanged? The way I understand it - thats worked out based on resources sent vs. resources received. I m in the positive (by 504,065 turns) because I ve received that many more than I ve sent. Yet its apparently not influenced by resources sent?

3.) I was under the impression that "normal" growth would result in the transfer ratio decreasing vs. your account value? Normal growth meaning from U.P, raiding etc... - as all of it adds to your account value

4.) Why has my account value decreased when I ve actually grown a fair bit since September the 19th? I thought account value factors in *everything* I.e. value of UU trained in stats, income units etc..., value of unit production & tech investments, weapons etc... etc...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the rest:

Overall Alliance Transfers
Kuwal -58,800,000,000
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Cummlative Value -3,729 Turns - Unchanged.

Transfers with Your Commander
Automatic transfers
Untrained to Commander 203,866 - increased by 14,162
Untrained Value 35,803,398,481 Kuwal - Increased by 2,418,841,629
Kuwal to You 39,562,881,186 Kuwal - Increased by 2,759,666,712.

Resources Brokered to You
Kuwal 0
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Total Value to You 39,562,881,186 Kuwal - Increased by 2,758,666,712
Ratio Received/Sent 110.5 % - Increased by 0.26%
Missing Payment 0

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you could advise on the questions I d appreciate it.... as I think my limit should have decreased, not gone up after sending away 86billion kuwal Sad
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nimras on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:45 pm

seaborgium wrote:Trust me Nimras, I am not someone admin likes.
So as long as I am still playing then its good.

Lol then be assured when he starts your the first to go.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:49 pm

no, I don't have the highest rate anymore
I can say I have been fixing mine without jacking up someone elses rate.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:01 pm

K so ian

1) yes it would, direct transfers had a slight bug in that. will now have it run through the direct transfers since the update got released so your net transfer should get adjusted soon.
That should also address 2)

3) and 4) have been explained as follows
Admin wrote:
The reason why the ratio has dropped is because how the account value is calculated.
The kuwal you invest and units you lose gets valued at the time when you spend it and then the value gets "frozen" since you can't take this value anywhere anymore.
100 turns of units lost will always remain 100 turns of units.

This is where the "a problem" shows up. The units as your army size and kuwal in the bank have a certain value. But if the units lose value (i.e. instead of 60 units per turn, you now need to pay 65 units per turn) then your whole armysize has also lost in value.
If I didn't do this but used the "freezing" mechanism, one might end up with having 100 units which are worth 100 turns if they stay in their account, but sending these units away would only reduce their account value by 50. They have nothing in their account but it's worth 50 turns.
On the other hand one might also end up with having 200 units which are worth 50 turns, but sending these units away would reduce their account value by 100 turns ending up with an account value of -50 turns, which clearly defies logic. (extreme examples but i'm trying to show the problem in a simple way)

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:41 pm

Ok, thanks admin.

I think I under the above answer... sort of.

My next question is - what happens to old trades?

I.e. say if I spent 500billion buying 5million UU about 12months ago - because at the time the UU rate was around 100k... thus a fair trade.

Now with the game valuing UU at a 130k rate, would it now look at past trades - and in this example... see 500billion kuwal being sent and receiving back 650billion kuwal's worth?

How does the game work out the value of old trades done at a time when market values were considerably lower than what they are now?
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:53 pm

people traded before, the game looked at how people traded what rates they did and calculated rates from that.
and by trading i mean trading, i dont mean one way transfers, using broker or not.

in that sense the value of stuff you traded before also gets frozen
you sent 20k units to someone a year ago when it was worth 1k at's, it'll still show up as 1k at's sent today.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kenzu on Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:13 am

seaborgium wrote:
Kenzu wrote:There is a simple advice how to improve it: Grow!

I have a up of 50k, a total up of 60k and my ratio drops 0.04% a day. I wonder how long admin will wait for players to fix it.

thats roughly 1230 days for me to get down to 20% from my current ratio.

Just because it's is falling slow it doesn't mean that it isn't the way it should be.

ian wrote:Ok, thanks admin.

I think I under the above answer... sort of.

My next question is - what happens to old trades?

I.e. say if I spent 500billion buying 5million UU about 12months ago - because at the time the UU rate was around 100k... thus a fair trade.

Now with the game valuing UU at a 130k rate, would it now look at past trades - and in this example... see 500billion kuwal being sent and receiving back 650billion kuwal's worth?

How does the game work out the value of old trades done at a time when market values were considerably lower than what they are now?

Galactic Market defines the prices of resources, not the trade center.
Values of resources are recorded in attack turns, which means that if you receive 1.000.000 units and at that time you could buy 50 with 1 AT, then you received 20.000 AT
Now they are valued at 100 with 1 AT, which means that they are worth only 10.000 AT, however the trade balance system remembers that you received UU worth 20.000

Kuwal and UU devaluate in time compared to AT due to inflation.
1 kuwal 1 month ago is worth less than 1 kuwal now.
Same like 1 Dollar 10 years ago was worth more than 1 dollar now.

The trade balance system follows the rules of real world economics.

Also there is a difference between market value and market price.
Attack Turns have always the same VALUE, but their PRICE changes, this is mainly because the production of AT is rather constant.
UU and Kuwal however not, with each day production of them rises, and since there are more of them in Aderan, but the number of produced attack turns is still the same, then obviously 1 AT must cost more UU and kuwal than before.

The price of UU and kuwal rises, because their VALUE falls.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:39 am

ian wrote:Admin... I m now confused with this transfer limit.

My limit isn't decreasing at all... its increasing.

On the 19th of September it was:

Transfer Ratio 48.75 %

Total sent
Kuwal 1,672,135,094,088
Untrained 1,734,463
Turns 17,747
Cumulative Value 841,633 Turns

Total received
Kuwal 1,334,323,250,674
Untrained 12,534,434
Turns 58,493
Cumulative Value 1,345,698 Turns

Grand Total
Kuwal- 337,811,843,414
Untrained 10,799,971
Turns 40,746
Cumulative Value 504,065 Turns
Account Value 1,034,015 Turns

-----------------------------------------

Overall Alliance Transfers
Kuwal- 58,800,000,000
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Cummlative Value -3,729 Turns

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Transfers with Your Commander
Automatic transfers
Untrained to Commander 189,704
Untrained Value 33,384,556,852 Kuwal
Kuwal to You 36,803,214,474 Kuwal
Resources Brokered to You
Kuwal 0
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Total Value to You 36,803,214,474 Kuwal
Ratio Received/Sent 110.24 %
Missing Payment 0

Transfer Ratio 48.75 %

################################################

Now its:

Total sent
Kuwal 1,758,661,094,088 + 86,526,000,000
Untrained 1,734,463 - Unchanged
Turns 17,747 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 841,633 Turns - Unchanged?!?!?!

Total received
Kuwal 1,334,323,250,674 - Unchanged
Untrained 12,534,434 - Unchanged
Turns 58,493 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 1,345,698 Turns - Unchanged

Grand Total
Kuwal -424,337,843,414 - Decreased by 86,526,000,000 kuwal
Untrained 10,799,971 - Unchanged
Turns 40,746 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 504,065 Turns - Unchanged?!?!?!
Account Value 1,033,388 Turns - Decreased by 627 turns?
Transfer Ratio 48.78 %

Overall Alliance Transfers
Kuwal -58,800,000,000
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Cummlative Value -3,729 Turns - Unchanged.

Transfers with Your Commander
Automatic transfers
Untrained to Commander 203,866 - increased by 14,162
Untrained Value 35,803,398,481 Kuwal - Increased by 2,418,841,629
Kuwal to You 39,562,881,186 Kuwal - Increased by 2,759,666,712.

Resources Brokered to You
Kuwal 0
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Total Value to You 39,562,881,186 Kuwal - Increased by 2,758,666,712
Ratio Received/Sent 110.5 % - Increased by 0.26%
Missing Payment 0

Admin... its now:

Total sent
Kuwal 1,760,063,781,505 - Increased by 1,402,687,417
Untrained 1,735,433 - Increased by 970
Turns 17,747 - UNCHANGED
Cumulative Value 841,633 Turns - UNCHANGED

Total received
Kuwal 1,334,323,250,674 - unchanged
Untrained 12,534,434 - unchanged
Turns 58,493 - unchanged
Cumulative Value 1,345,698 Turns - unchanged

Grand Total
Kuwal -425,740,530,831 - Decreased by 1,402,687,417
Untrained 10,799,001 - Decreased by 970
Turns 40,746 - Unchanged
Cumulative Value 504,065 Turns - Unchanged
Account Value 1,031,304 Turns - Decreased by 2084

Overall Alliance Transfers
Kuwal -58,800,000,000 - unchanged
Untrained 0
Turns 0
Cumulative Value -3,729 Turns - unchanged.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Admin... my transfer ratio is 48.88 %, and the cumulative turns/value have not changed since I last posted & when you said you d run the equations again lol
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:25 pm

yes sorry, exam today
will get it done now

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:26 am

I see why admin didn't make it an automated system. As I have seen my rate as low as 59. something, but it jumped back up to like 69% the other day. Now its back down to mid 60%. Got to love the market.

Thank you admin for be understanding.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:24 pm

While talking to kenzu I thought about something.
I am looking for an answer from admin not someone who thinks they know.

I am using factious numbers just simple math reasons.

Cumulative Value 10,000,000 Turns
Account Value 10,100,000 Turns
Transfer Ratio 1.00 %

So above I have a trade value of 10m turns, and an account value of 10.1m turns, so my ratio is 1%. Which is legal right?
Say that I have 30m UU on my account right now. That means that the UU each has a value of .3367(yes I know this isn't 100% right but as I said for simple math). If I sell 25m UU on the GM, that is perfectly legal. This would bring my PTR to 1,683,333. That means my PTR is now well over the 80% limit. Does mean I can be banned?

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:44 am

seaborgium wrote:While talking to kenzu I thought about something.
I am looking for an answer from admin not someone who thinks they know.

I am using factious numbers just simple math reasons.

Cumulative Value 10,000,000 Turns
Account Value 10,100,000 Turns
Transfer Ratio 1.00 %

So above I have a trade value of 10m turns, and an account value of 10.1m turns, so my ratio is 1%. Which is legal right?
Say that I have 30m UU on my account right now. That means that the UU each has a value of .3367(yes I know this isn't 100% right but as I said for simple math). If I sell 25m UU on the GM, that is perfectly legal. This would bring my PTR to 1,683,333. That means my PTR is now well over the 80% limit. Does mean I can be banned?

I thought GM had 0 effect on PTR?

just asking is all.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:46 am

Thats right, GM has 0 PTR. HOWEVER your PTR % is based on your account value.
UU is part of your account value.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:50 am

ok, I see your point, and I await admins response because its way out of my league.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kenzu on Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:27 pm

seaborgium wrote:While talking to kenzu I thought about something.
I am looking for an answer from admin not someone who thinks they know.

I am using factious numbers just simple math reasons.

Cumulative Value 10,000,000 Turns
Account Value 10,100,000 Turns
Transfer Ratio 1.00 %

So above I have a trade value of 10m turns, and an account value of 10.1m turns, so my ratio is 1%. Which is legal right?
Say that I have 30m UU on my account right now. That means that the UU each has a value of .3367(yes I know this isn't 100% right but as I said for simple math). If I sell 25m UU on the GM, that is perfectly legal. This would bring my PTR to 1,683,333. That means my PTR is now well over the 80% limit. Does mean I can be banned?

If you want admins answer, then you will have to wait some time.
Here my answer:

Yes, you will be banned, or the units you have received would be taken away from you.
I recommend everyone who wants to do something that will worsen PTR so much to talk to admin first.

If however you had a ratio of 1% and then it jumped to 35%, you will not be banned immediately. Instead your ratio will be followed and if its improving then nothing will be done with your account.
(If you were funding alliance mates during war is an example when this could have happened. Obviously your ratio has to be improving in the long run.)
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:05 pm

What units?
I just sold them off on the market. When I sold them I was within PTR.
Kenzu wrote:
If you want admins answer, then you will have to wait some time.
Thats the story for main. RA well just looking. at that section we can see things done.
Kenzu wrote:
Here my answer:

Yes, you will be banned, or the units you have received would be taken away from you.
I recommend everyone who wants to do something that will worsen PTR so much to talk to admin first.

If however you had a ratio of 1% and then it jumped to 35%, you will not be banned immediately. Instead your ratio will be followed and if its improving then nothing will be done with your account.
(If you were funding alliance mates during war is an example when this could have happened. Obviously your ratio has to be improving in the long run.)
IF I wanted something from you I would have said kenzu. This was directed at the person who is/was controling the game or so I thought untill last night.
Kenzu says (6:06 PM):
my report says you started wit h75.82%

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:27 pm

Well I'm totally lost now because I thought it was legal to sell as much of anything on the GM market as you wanted? But Kenzu says you will be banned for selling off a good chunk of your account?

What did I miss? i had to have missed something.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kenzu on Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:27 am

Kenzu wrote:
seaborgium wrote:While talking to kenzu I thought about something.
I am looking for an answer from admin not someone who thinks they know.

I am using factious numbers just simple math reasons.

Cumulative Value 10,000,000 Turns
Account Value 10,100,000 Turns
Transfer Ratio 1.00 %

So above I have a trade value of 10m turns, and an account value of 10.1m turns, so my ratio is 1%. Which is legal right?
Say that I have 30m UU on my account right now. That means that the UU each has a value of .3367(yes I know this isn't 100% right but as I said for simple math). If I sell 25m UU on the GM, that is perfectly legal. This would bring my PTR to 1,683,333. That means my PTR is now well over the 80% limit. Does mean I can be banned?

If you want admins answer, then you will have to wait some time.
Here my answer:

Yes, you will be banned, or the units you have received would be taken away from you.
I recommend everyone who wants to do something that will worsen PTR so much to talk to admin first.

If however you had a ratio of 1% and then it jumped to 35%, you will not be banned immediately. Instead your ratio will be followed and if its improving then nothing will be done with your account.
(If you were funding alliance mates during war is an example when this could have happened. Obviously your ratio has to be improving in the long run.)

Nomad wrote:Well I'm totally lost now because I thought it was legal to sell as much of anything on the GM market as you wanted? But Kenzu says you will be banned for selling off a good chunk of your account?

What did I miss? i had to have missed something.

I must have misunderstood. I thought he would sell his 25m uu for free, and that he would be using private market.
Obviously trading on GM is legal and you can trade at any price you want. GM doesn't influence your PTR. But it does influence your account value. Make profits on GM and your PTR will improve, make losses and your PTR will worsen.

But if you place good on the GM, your account value will fall, and thus your PTR will worsen until you get your goods back. Let's asume you make 2 trades, one where you sell uu and one where you buy uu.
You could sell 1 million uu for 250 billion kuwal and then use the 250 billion kuwal to buy 900.000 uu. Result: your account is smaller by 100.000 uu and thus your account value is smaller, and PTR is worse.

Comming back at sea's question. He mentioned that uu has a value of .3367. Well that doesn't mean anything. .3367 of what? Also PTR cannot be 1,683,333. PTR is a percentage.

What I understood is that sea asks what would happen if his PTR was 1% and then he sold 25 of 30 million uu in the galactic market for an extremely low price? It's almost impossible to end up with 80% PTR from 1% after making a trade. Please elaborate your question. I don't think admin would understand what you meant either.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:49 am

Your kinda right kenzu.

PTR is a % of trades/account value

if your trades are 1% of your account value and you sell off UU your trades value doesn't change but your account value does.
So in affect it does change your PTR.

I was looking at selling off UU for Kuwal, so I could increase some stats, so currently I wouldn't be increasing my UU size.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:04 am

Kenzu wrote:
I must have misunderstood. I thought he would sell his 25m uu for free, and that he would be using private market.
Obviously trading on GM is legal and you can trade at any price you want. GM doesn't influence your PTR. But it does influence your account value. Make profits on GM and your PTR will improve, make losses and your PTR will worsen.

But if you place good on the GM, your account value will fall, and thus your PTR will worsen until you get your goods back. Let's asume you make 2 trades, one where you sell uu and one where you buy uu.
You could sell 1 million uu for 250 billion kuwal and then use the 250 billion kuwal to buy 900.000 uu. Result: your account is smaller by 100.000 uu and thus your account value is smaller, and PTR is worse.


If you have the time and inclination help me understand this a bit more if you can, because I honestly do not understand it. I get that trading on GM does not, or is not suppose to effect your PTR,,,,, but now I find myself asking how does it not effect it? Because as stated above, if you sold off a large chunk and it adjusts your account value then by default it should change your PTR right?

As for the example sea made, I just assumed that buy selling UU, you get turns of kewal so the overall account value does not change, as you simple trade 1 resource for another, so the same value still exists, just in a different form. Now as Kenzu has said, heavily skewed trades should effect your PTR as it means you are either gaining or losing a large % of the value of your resources/account.


Now I find myself asking how and why the GM does not effect PTR?
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:34 am

Nomad wrote:Now I find myself asking how and why the GM does not effect PTR?
Found the mistake, sorry guys.

Apparently stuff you are trading on GM didn't get included in your account value (so your PTR kinda worsened until you traded and got your resources back).
Coding and uploading a fix now

Either way: Nomad you're right with your explanation. GM shouldn't affect your PTR since you gain stuff in return for other. Now depending on what kind of rates you do, it might move around. If you sell off cheaply only then in effect you're reducing your account value. However if you trade regularly and make profits, then your PTR will keep improving.

Obviously if you have a PTR of 1%, the differences will be far less noticeable than if your PTR is 20%

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Re: Trade Balance System

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