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Trade Balance System

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Capt_Blood
Lord Ishurue
Jiro
Special Agent 47
Vesper
A man from Bob
LurantMaximus
Nimras
Steveanaya
Manleva
Kingofshinobis1
damgood
ian
kingkongfan1
Nomad
Kenzu
seaborgium
Admin
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Post by Jiro Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:05 pm

Why don't we just do whatever we were doing already and all (including admin) see what happens? If someone who is just playing shows up in the feeder detection system, we see what we can do about it and make changes to the detection system or just reset the detection values for that person?
Like a test run, but for real?
Admin, what do you think?

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Post by ian Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:30 pm

Personally I think admin should have just started this system from scratch.

Its unfair to apply it retrospectively I.e. when the TIE/TOC war was waging we obviously funded our better teched players to allow them to attack more.

Those fund's didn't do *any* benefit to those players accounts since the resources would have been immediately consumed killing enemy resources... at the time this system didn't exist and hadn't be mentioned at all.

Had it existed, or had we known it was coming... suffice it to say we d have done thing's differently. Now we have people like myself in red, other's who gave resources to the war-effort in red etc...

The same applies for probably every other player in the red - had they known about this system they d have done things differently to avoid being classed as feeders/cheaters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If admin is really serious about this system being genuinely to catch feeders... he should reset the values for each player - so all players back to 0.

Then future feeders WILL show up... and if noone shows up, it means those feeders have stopped. Either way... its has the desired effect.

Right now however people like myself, Vesper, Lord Ishurue, Sea, SA47 etc.. are all apparently being fed - all because they either recieved funds to fight a war, or because they brought accounts and transferred the resources when it WASN'T illegal to do so.
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Post by Admin Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:34 pm

Jiro wrote:Why don't we just do whatever we were doing already and all (including admin) see what happens? If someone who is just playing shows up in the feeder detection system, we see what we can do about it and make changes to the detection system or just reset the detection values for that person?
Like a test run, but for real?
Admin, what do you think?
Top of page 10
Admin wrote:Now with respect to everyone who's account ratio "worsened", I'll remind you of a simple fact that you seem to be forgetting.

The fact that this is a new update means that it is still subject to change if new information surfaces that shows flaws.
Right now this runs in preliminary mode. I need this to run for a week so I can see how the numbers will look after people work with it.
If the system were set in stone and I would be unwilling to make any change to it then this thread would have been locked a long time ago after answering all questions once, and only once.

That being said I'm welcoming everyone to post their observations or to report any suspicious behavior by the script in a clear and respectful manner.
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Post by Admin Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:51 pm

ian it's not as one sided as you might think.

Those who were legitimately fed, i.e. through wars would most likely have turned all the resources they received into units and weapons and then lost them shortly afterwards still count towards account value. So it's not like they got these resources and then they vanished, screwing up their ratio even further.
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Post by Jiro Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:55 pm

Admin wrote:ian it's not as one sided as you might think.

Those who were legitimately fed, i.e. through wars would most likely have turned all the resources they received into units and weapons and then lost them shortly afterwards still count towards account value. So it's not like they got these resources and then they vanished, screwing up their ratio even further.
Just for my understanding, I think I am beginning to understand, but let me know if I am right:
Units and weapons that were destroyed count towards account value just like units and weapons that still exist? So massing someone or getting massed does not impact your account value at all?

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:05 pm

You mass or get massed, your ratio will not change at all because of that.
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Post by seaborgium Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:16 pm

Does everything have a set value or does the value change?
once an item is destroy/used its value is frozen right?

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:38 pm

kuwal spent or units lost get their value frozen
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Post by Vesper Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:20 am

So I think that everything would have been better off if admin implemented this update in secret instead of making it so everyone can see their own stuff. Then he could just monitor the trading and if he does notice something that is drastically changing he could PM the individual about it. But since he made it so everyone can see their own ratio, now everyone is paranoid.
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Post by Admin Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:26 pm

Vesper wrote:So I think that everything would have been better off if admin implemented this update in secret instead of making it so everyone can see their own stuff. Then he could just monitor the trading and if he does notice something that is drastically changing he could PM the individual about it. But since he made it so everyone can see their own ratio, now everyone is paranoid.
I've had that idea too, however I figured the game would be better off with less people getting banned because they didn't know they were crossing the line.
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Post by Nimras Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:40 pm

Admin wrote:
Vesper wrote:So I think that everything would have been better off if admin implemented this update in secret instead of making it so everyone can see their own stuff. Then he could just monitor the trading and if he does notice something that is drastically changing he could PM the individual about it. But since he made it so everyone can see their own ratio, now everyone is paranoid.
I've had that idea too, however I figured the game would be better off with less people getting banned because they didn't know they were crossing the line.

Anyway how will you catch the feeders and cheaters when they still operate with your trade update that sucks where it seems you don't catch them?

Ohh and how will you be sure that the person is not cross server trading instead of being feed because cross server trading is in my eyes fine and should be allowed if you wan't your game to survive?

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Post by Kenzu Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:24 pm

Nimras wrote:
Admin wrote:
Nimras wrote:And I am getting annoyed that the few times i read people asking about cross servers you seems to ignore it or point out that you will not accept that why not? People with low $$ could cross sell from other games to follow the $$ spenders is it because you don't get any money from it?
You want to tell me that those people who donate money to the site should be worse off than those who cross server trade or buy stuff from others with $$?
Ignoring completely the fact that in the latter 2 cases I have no way of knowing if it actually is a trade or simple feeding pretending to be a trade.

esactly you don't thats why you punish the people who is legit.

As you just proved just now your paranoia and fear of Feeders and cheaters you punish everyone else come on Admin instead of punishing everyone else because of your fears and paranoia then find another way to stop the cheaters and feeders.

A red number showing up on your base page isn't punishment. What I call punishment is if someone gets banned or punished with a loss or resources. No one received such punishment yet. So why keep saying that people are punished?

Also, if you have received too many resources and are in red lines, then if you keep receiving more than you pay obviously you will be punished. But if you listen to us, and don't keep on feeding your account, play properly, you will never get punished. You can stay in the red even for years, if you don't receive any resources, you will receive no punishment. Most important is that "well fed accounts" don't get fed more. And it doesn't matter if you have fed it before or after the update, one thing is clear, if in red, don't feed anymore.

To make it clear for everyone: If you started with a red transfer ratio when it has been released, if you don't worsen it, you can keep it red even for years.


Nimras wrote:Admin when do you open up for cross trading again?

As I would like to do that both ways as i do sell resources here for stuff in the other game and the same back i get resources here for stuff i sold in the other game.

You can trade as long as you always stay in green transfer ratio. Don't go above 20% or below -20%.

Nimras wrote:
Admin wrote:Sea I thought you'd cut the crap about kenzu having forced this through by now.

And yes, sorry not to have known that people would think that sending 5% of their account growth away will eventually get them past 20% ratio. It was a serious issue during most of the discussion

Admin Kenzu issue lol yes we all know about you and Kenzu so its ok.

But you still have stopped trading almost 100% with your bull to stop feeders and cheaters.

You have managed to stop everything but the feeders and cheaters.

Anyway i will start trading cross server again and I make it clear here and now I will do it and if my ratio goese because of it then to bad as i will not care about the ratio as i am not cheating or feeding or being feeded go hunt the real feeders and cheaters instead of us who play correctly.

This update should never have happen it should either been here from start not 2 years in because of a Admins paranoiya and Conspiracy Theoriese as he has jesus are there terrorists as well every where around you Admin?

If you make cross server trades for less than 20% of what you produce than you will NEVER go beyond the allowed limit. Of course, if you decide to sell half of what you produce then sooner or later you will be feeding too much and end up with a ban. But this kind of feeding was forbidden already much earlier. Of course now it can be punished much earlier, because no one has doubts whether its still legal or not.

seaborgium wrote:Sorry to say admin, but with the things kenzu has posted here, no I don't have any direct post, due to being at work.
Having gotten message from players in WR.
Having seen things come out after things happened.
The fact that Kenzu got his rear handed to him on a few occasions at lot of the updates that you have made only show him and other ppl that don't have the same grasp of how to get ahead or how to make deals or spend a little time planning your moves are the ones who really run the game. I know 3 prominent players, top 20 accounts that are ready to pack it up and leave due to some of the updates.

I had an open mind about it at first. After a little posting/talks I started not to like it. After speaking to you and getting more info I was on the fence again.

After it has come out, I not happy with it.

I can't argue the high ratio I have. I know what I did to get it. I do feel kinda jaded that its coming back to haunt me.

Please inform me of all the occasions. I'd like to hear about it.

This update wouldn't have been necessary if certain people wouldn't be pushing the boundaries too much.


ian wrote:Admin, can you clarify this for me:

Will "normal" account growth result in the transfer ratio dropping over-time?

I.e. I thought it was meant to be based on the account's value... as thats how you described it before you implemented it. As at the moment my transfer ratio has barely dropped (by just over 1%) since it was implemented - and both my officer & commander bits are green...

So i d just like you to clarify - as if it *is* only affected by trade (and not normal basic growth) obviously I ll only get it to drop via dumping all my excessive resources elsewhere.... lol


Yes, over time your transfer ratio will drop. It is possible however that for some accounts it can take longer to start seeing an effect, especially if they received many resources recently, which are devaluing fast. You should see a significant change after a couple weeks or 1 month.

ian wrote:Personally I think admin should have just started this system from scratch.

Its unfair to apply it retrospectively I.e. when the TIE/TOC war was waging we obviously funded our better teched players to allow them to attack more.

Those fund's didn't do *any* benefit to those players accounts since the resources would have been immediately consumed killing enemy resources... at the time this system didn't exist and hadn't be mentioned at all.

Had it existed, or had we known it was coming... suffice it to say we d have done thing's differently. Now we have people like myself in red, other's who gave resources to the war-effort in red etc...

The same applies for probably every other player in the red - had they known about this system they d have done things differently to avoid being classed as feeders/cheaters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If admin is really serious about this system being genuinely to catch feeders... he should reset the values for each player - so all players back to 0.

Then future feeders WILL show up... and if noone shows up, it means those feeders have stopped. Either way... its has the desired effect.

Right now however people like myself, Vesper, Lord Ishurue, Sea, SA47 etc.. are all apparently being fed - all because they either recieved funds to fight a war, or because they brought accounts and transferred the resources when it WASN'T illegal to do so.

All transfer of resources which isn't compensated with equal value is feeding. And feeding isn't always a bad thing. If used properly it can save billions of kuwal because it increases the fighting efficiency of alliances in wars. A high transfer ratio might seem as a bad thing on the first glance, however you should also know that higher transfer ratio not only inhibits how much you can receive, it also boosts the amount of resources you can send to others. So while some people received more resources in previous wars, in the future wars, other alliance members will be teched up and this will eventually bring the transfer ratios more into balance.

Players who have been better fed before have more possibilities to feed other members. If the transfer ratios get reset, then these players will never be able to return the acquired resources, even if they want.


Last edited by Kenzu on Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Nimras Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:15 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Nimras wrote:
Admin wrote:
Nimras wrote:And I am getting annoyed that the few times i read people asking about cross servers you seems to ignore it or point out that you will not accept that why not? People with low $$ could cross sell from other games to follow the $$ spenders is it because you don't get any money from it?
You want to tell me that those people who donate money to the site should be worse off than those who cross server trade or buy stuff from others with $$?
Ignoring completely the fact that in the latter 2 cases I have no way of knowing if it actually is a trade or simple feeding pretending to be a trade.

esactly you don't thats why you punish the people who is legit.

As you just proved just now your paranoia and fear of Feeders and cheaters you punish everyone else come on Admin instead of punishing everyone else because of your fears and paranoia then find another way to stop the cheaters and feeders.

A red number showing up on your base page isn't punishment. What I call punishment is if someone gets banned or punished with a loss or resources. No one received such punishment yet. So why keep saying that people are punished?

Also, if you have received too many resources and are in red lines, then if you keep receiving more than you pay obviously you will be punished. But if you listen to us, and don't keep on feeding your account, play properly, you will never get punished. You can stay in the red even for years, if you don't receive any resources, you will receive no punishment. Most important is that "well fed accounts" don't get fed more. And it doesn't matter if you have fed it before or after the update, one thing is clear, if in red, don't feed anymore.

To make it clear for everyone: If you started with a red transfer ratio when it has been released, if you don't worsen it, you can keep it red even for years.


Nimras wrote:Admin when do you open up for cross trading again?

As I would like to do that both ways as i do sell resources here for stuff in the other game and the same back i get resources here for stuff i sold in the other game.

You can trade as long as you always stay in green transfer ratio. Don't go above 20% or below -20%.

Nimras wrote:
Admin wrote:Sea I thought you'd cut the crap about kenzu having forced this through by now.

And yes, sorry not to have known that people would think that sending 5% of their account growth away will eventually get them past 20% ratio. It was a serious issue during most of the discussion

Admin Kenzu issue lol yes we all know about you and Kenzu so its ok.

But you still have stopped trading almost 100% with your bull to stop feeders and cheaters.

You have managed to stop everything but the feeders and cheaters.

Anyway i will start trading cross server again and I make it clear here and now I will do it and if my ratio goese because of it then to bad as i will not care about the ratio as i am not cheating or feeding or being feeded go hunt the real feeders and cheaters instead of us who play correctly.

This update should never have happen it should either been here from start not 2 years in because of a Admins paranoiya and Conspiracy Theoriese as he has jesus are there terrorists as well every where around you Admin?

If you make cross server trades for less than 20% of what you produce than you will NEVER go beyond the allowed limit. Of course, if you decide to sell half of what you produce then sooner or later you will be feeding too much and end up with a ban. But this kind of feeding was forbidden already much earlier. Of course now it can be punished much earlier, because no one has doubts whether its still legal or not.

Well see Kenzu there your WRONG. Lets say i wanna trade half my account for GW resources or trade hafl my GW account for AW resources I should be allowed to do that no matter what as its NOT FEEDING but TRADING.

On the other hand if i got resources constantly without paying for it either by giving GW resources or by giving $$ then yes i should be banned for doing so.

But until i do such a thing then I do not see a damn problem only you and ADMIN doese because your paranoia and full of Conspiracy Theories apparently.

So stop the BULL about wanting to stop cheaters and Feeders what you 2 actually want is to controle the game so players can't trade and do their own buisness you wanna be on top of them on how they play and how they work and you just proved it Kenzu so thank you for saying it out loud that you and Admin wanna make sure no one play this game like they want but play it like you want by stopping trading and cross server trading you never wanted to catch the feeders and cheaters DID you? Ohh and btw what stops you and admin from cheating nothing lol maybe thats why so you can cheat :p

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Post by Admin Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:23 pm

Nimras wrote:Well see Kenzu there your WRONG. Lets say i wanna trade half my account for GW resources or trade hafl my GW account for AW resources I should be allowed to do that no matter what as its NOT FEEDING but TRADING.
How the hell would you be able to prove to me that you're trading and not feeding?

Plus the last sentence made no sense?
We make an update so that we can cheat which was something we could have done anyway?
Are you really having issues using your brain cells?
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Post by Nimras Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:10 am

Admin wrote:
Nimras wrote:Well see Kenzu there your WRONG. Lets say i wanna trade half my account for GW resources or trade hafl my GW account for AW resources I should be allowed to do that no matter what as its NOT FEEDING but TRADING.
How the hell would you be able to prove to me that you're trading and not feeding?

Plus the last sentence made no sense?
We make an update so that we can cheat which was something we could have done anyway?
Are you really having issues using your brain cells?

Lol And you ban people for insults but allow your self to insult TSK TSK admin heard of Double standard i think you need to read up on that.

No i haven't hurd any brain cells the last part was sarcastic if you ever heard of that i fare to say no.

For the Trading well thats your problem I know i am trading legit by buying AW resources or Selling them for GW resources i even admit it.

So if you can't find out if i am being fed or not then your having a problem not me. As far i am concerned proving they are being feed and not trading is your job not mine, and if you can't then what do i care as long i can do what i want with my account regarding trading without being feed and cheated then i am happy. Now i aren't planning yet to do my big deals as i have a few things i need to finish up in GW but i already have a few buyers and sellers lined up and i have writen it here so i am counting on no matter if my % will be +/- 80% or less that nothing will happen because i made it clear that was my intentions. And as long you haven't banned cross server trading then it will happen in my case how you prove the real cheaters and feeders are what you claim to be is not of my concern as long your proof is LEGIT and correct if not then I think you need to find a better system.

Oh and Admin you owe me for 24 hours lost of resources because i do not find my ban here or ingame correct when you can insult but you do not like it the other way Wink.

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Post by seaborgium Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:20 am

Kenzu wrote:
seaborgium wrote:Sorry to say admin, but with the things kenzu has posted here, no I don't have any direct post, due to being at work.
Having gotten message from players in WR.
Having seen things come out after things happened.
The fact that Kenzu got his rear handed to him on a few occasions at lot of the updates that you have made only show him and other ppl that don't have the same grasp of how to get ahead or how to make deals or spend a little time planning your moves are the ones who really run the game. I know 3 prominent players, top 20 accounts that are ready to pack it up and leave due to some of the updates.

I had an open mind about it at first. After a little posting/talks I started not to like it. After speaking to you and getting more info I was on the fence again.

After it has come out, I not happy with it.

I can't argue the high ratio I have. I know what I did to get it. I do feel kinda jaded that its coming back to haunt me.

Please inform me of all the occasions. I'd like to hear about it.

This update wouldn't have been necessary if certain people wouldn't be pushing the boundaries too much.
If you look at the forums you can see ppl that left due to polices. I am sure you will see when ppl leave. I am sure much will change for you when they do. What people pushing too much? You mean like Me and SA, we both know people complained and whined to admin. I have seen many things change are they get used on others. Make things harder for the people that worked for what they have, where others have been lazy and whined.



Why is the ratio in the baseO pages? I don't think anyone other then the person should beable to see that information.

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Post by Special Agent 47 Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:53 am

Kenzu is given access to certain information on every account in the game.

What kills me about the whinners is everything was fine as long as it was their alliance mates, and alliance allies doing the same things they complain about us doing. Way to stick to your guns guys.


As I have said before and will say again and again. This will not stop a dedicated player. No matter what updates you get pushed through which are directly aimed at a person or an account, you will never be as good a player as someone with more dedication then you.

I'll be glad when you get your server/game up and running so maybe you can/will leave main alone and go play a game where 5 minutes a day can net you a top ranked account.
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Post by Admin Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:38 am

Special Agent 47 wrote:Kenzu is given access to certain information on every account in the game.
there is no such page that he can look up info on any individual account
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Post by Special Agent 47 Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:09 am

No one said anything about "a page".
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Post by Admin Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:29 am

Special Agent 47 wrote:No one said anything about "a page".
ok
Kenzu has no "access to certain information on every account in the game".
Since we're clearly at the point where I'm passing him information about people's accounts.
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Post by Special Agent 47 Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:32 am

Admin wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:No one said anything about "a page".
ok
Kenzu has no "access to certain information on every account in the game".
Since we're clearly at the point where I'm passing him information about people's accounts.

Only if you say so, because I didn't say that, but I stand behind what I said as I believe the one who told me.

We can continue this via PM if you like, no need to hijack the topic.
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Post by Lord Ishurue Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:58 am



i see a major hole with this update. Mass & Raids ( Drop the target's defense then raid ) .

since in a Mass & Raid you may have a few people take out the defense and then 1 or 2 guys raid . Compensate every1 then split the profit .

how can Mass & Raids be fairly factored into The Transfer Ratio ?

Mujengan has been doing Mass & Raids since we were Hachigan .

wouldn't those past Mass & Raids effect the transfer limit ?

For example. lets say we took out a guy with 3.25 million UUs. 3 guys involved . the cost add to 250k UUs.
so the 3 of us get 1mil UUs . sending out 2mil UUS for nothing in return in a situation like this should not count .







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Post by Nomad Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:02 am

Lord Ishurue wrote:

i see a major hole with this update. Mass & Raids ( Drop the target's defense then raid ) .

since in a Mass & Raid you may have a few people take out the defense and then 1 or 2 guys raid . Compensate every1 then split the profit .

how can Mass & Raids be fairly factored into The Transfer Ratio ?

Mujengan has been doing Mass & Raids since we were Hachigan .

wouldn't those past Mass & Raids effect the transfer limit ?

For example. lets say we took out a guy with 3.25 million UUs. 3 guys involved . the cost add to 250k UUs.
so the 3 of us get 1mil UUs . sending out 2mil UUS for nothing in return in a situation like this should not count .


Just an odd question but why can't everyone involved raid their own UU?

I cant really see an unexploitable way to factor this into the system but maybe admin can, because you do have a valid point/concern.
Nomad
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Hipocracy
hy·poc·ri·sy
Show Spelled[hi-pok-ruh-see]
–noun, plural -sies.

1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's real character or actual behavior, esp the pretense of virtue and piety
3. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.

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Trade Balance System - Page 8 Empty Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:09 am

I just sold ATs at a rate of 16m:1
I sold 6k for 96b
it was like 6000 turns value for the buyer
and like 6088 for myself
and my Ratio just JUMPPED up .60%
Is it really that much for 88 turns?
I would hate to see if it was someone smaller then myself.

Testing, I moved my ATs up to a higher rate, and SA bought the 2k that was there and the rate dropped another .20%

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Post by seaborgium Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:38 am

I just logged in and found
Transfer Ratio 64.98 %
I am guessing due to what SA and I did.

I just did looked at this "sale" again
I just sold ATs at a rate of 16m:1
I sold 6k for 96b
it was like 6000 turns value for the buyer
and like 27,286 for myself

So I did one for 35m:1at
Buyer: 6000 Turn value
Myself: 596,865 Turn value

Can anyoen explain to me why the turn value is so high when I am using the current market rate?

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